Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

So What Was Voted On Today? $124 Billion For What?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
Jcrowley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 07:01 PM
Original message
So What Was Voted On Today? $124 Billion For What?
Edited on Fri Mar-23-07 07:18 PM by Jcrowley
As relates to the US "involvement" in Iraq there is a serious error in the language being used in Congress and faithfully parroted in the US media and following from that a grave misunderstanding about what went down today, what exactly was voted on and more importantly what was entirely omitted.

As was first put forth by the Bush adminstration and drummed into Americans heads via the corporate media the term that folks came to use to describe the pending invasion into the energy rich region of the Middle East "War on Iraq" and it is the same term used erroneously as the occupation grinds on. There is little questioning of this framework within the accepted political dialogue in Congress or amongst the pundits.

There is a small problem with that term that leads to a great deal of confusion. It is quite simply a lie. There is no "War on Iraq" nor has there ever been one.

There was an illegal invasion.

There is an illegal occupation.

There is a concentrated mass slaughter the likes of which the planet has not seen in decades.

There are massive amounts of militaristic corporate embezzlement.

And, lastly, there is a long list of war crimes.

Now what was voted on today when presented in these terms, which more accurately reflects the recent history and the everyday reality of the Iraqi people and more accurately represents the way the rest of the world sees the US invasion and occupation, may bring us to a very different set of conclusions about the validity of Pelosi's Plan. It certainly begs the question, "Why is it that the true nature of the United States ongoing atrocities in Iraq is not given the open debate it deserves?"

In the numerous speeches and discussions regarding this bill where was/is the term "War Crime?"

So tell me again how is this $124 billion bill going to stop the violence being visited upon the Iraqi people?

This is a bill that merely gives Bush over $100 billion to continue "The War", with no real strings attached. It gives him a free hand to attack Iran. There are scores of loopholes in it which would allow troops to remain in Iraq past Sept 2008; all Bush needs to do is claim the troops are there not for "combat" but rather for other purposes (such as fighting Al Qaeda, or training Iraqi troops, or guarding US installations, & or other task descriptions which are just word games to avoid calling it "combat").

The only thing in it that is a "step" towards ending "The War" is vague toothless language aiming at a pullout of combat troops by Aug 31, 2008.

This bill is not a step towards ending "The War." It's just a way that allows for some posturing as critics of "The War" until the 2008 elections, even while their actual votes support & fund "The War." It imposes no real restrictions on Bush, and is in practice no different than what he himself would most like.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
nam78_two Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
1. Excellent post....k&r/nt
:kick:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
2. War, friend only to the undertaker
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cv5BYEOQYLo

War, huh, yeah
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Uh-huh
War, huh, yeah
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Say it again, y'all

War, huh, good God
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me

Ohhh, war, I despise
Because it means destruction
Of innocent lives

War means tears
To thousands of mothers eyes
When their sons go to fight
And lose their lives

I said, war, huh
Good God, y'all
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Say it again

War, whoa, Lord
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me

War, it ain't nothing
But a heartbreaker
War, friend only to the undertaker
Ooooh, war
It's an enemy to all mankind
The point of war blows my mind
War has caused unrest
Within the younger generation
Induction then destruction
Who wants to die
Aaaaah, war-huh
Good God y'all
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Say it, say it, say it
War, huh
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me

War, huh, yeah
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Uh-huh
War, huh, yeah
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Say it again y'all
War, huh, good God
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me

War, it ain't nothing but a heartbreaker
War, it's got one friend
That's the undertaker
Ooooh, war, has shattered
Many a young mans dreams
Made him disabled, bitter and mean
Life is much to short and precious
To spend fighting wars these days
War can't give life
It can only take it away

Ooooh, war, huh
Good God y'all
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Say it again

War, whoa, Lord
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me

War, it ain't nothing but a heartbreaker
War, friend only to the undertaker
Peace, love and understanding
Tell me, is there no place for them today
They say we must fight to keep our freedom
But Lord knows there's got to be a better way

Ooooooh, war, huh
Good God y'all
What is it good for
You tell me
Say it, say it, say it, say it

War, huh
Good God y'all
What is it good for
Stand up and shout it
Nothing
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nimrod2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
3. Killing, death, and destruction costs money honey!!!
What part of all wars all the time do you not understand? :sarcasm:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
4. for a corporatist wargasm.
Who cares about thousands of dead as long as the corporations get what they want!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ccpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
5. you don't know what you're talking about
you might consider doing a bit of homework before you paint everyone who voted for the bill as a war-hungry, corporate whore.

some of the things in the bill voted on today:

$450 million for post-traumatic stress disorder/counseling.
$450 million for traumatic brain injury care and research.
$730 million to prevent health care fee increases for U.S. troops.
$20 million to address the problems at Walter Reed.
$14.8 million for burn care.
The bill increased funding for the VA's health care programs by $1.7 billion, including:


$550 million to address the maintenance backlog at VA health care facilities to prevent situations similar to those at Walter Reed.
$250 million for medical administration.
$229 million for treatment of a increased pool of veterans.
$100 million to allow the VA to contract with private mental health care providers.
$62 million to speed claims processing for returning veterans.

I realize this doesn't quite square with your self-righteous anti-war rant, but them's the facts.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
liberal renegade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. I heard bushie say
that bill was full of pork
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Whoa, you mean the $400 billion spent so far hasn't been pork 4 Halliburton, CACI, Blackwater etal?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #6
27. Yep like levies for New Orleans
I guess we should just let it flood again?

Though there was no money for... a bridge to nowhere
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bonito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. So that makes it ok?
Hmmm.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. SELF-RIGHTEOUS ANTI-WAR RANT!
I think you left out a few of them facts.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nicknameless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. And he kind of forgot to do the math.
BILLIONS vs. millions.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jcrowley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. It doesn't square at all
Correct me if I'm wrong but what you are stating amounts to a paltry $2.8 billion which is in fact money that is already in the Pentagon budget if you'd take the time to do the research.

This country just eclipsed the $1trillion/year budget for Militarization. This bill adds to that sum. You're okay with that?

this country spends more on weapons then the rest of the world combined. This country has 737 bases in 132 countries around the globe as stated by the DOD, the real figure is half again as much. That could not occur if the politicians were not playing a very active role in promoting the US Military (which is also the world's worst polluter by far-making it the greatest threat to all life on the planet BY FAR) and serving the interests of the US military industrial complex.

Do you doubt that for a moment?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. You mention all this care for injured soldiers. What about PREVENTING injuries
and not have wars of choice, illegal wars, wars of aggression, corporate resource wars?

I am totally for veterans' care, and very glad that our Democratic leaders included it. And I also think that we must not be defeatist, and we must think strategically and long term, in the fight to restore our democracy. Our first priority in that regard should be TRANSPARENT vote counting. What on earth do we expect of any Congress that achieved power through elections that are run on 'TRADE SECRET,' PROPRIETARY programming code, owned and controlled by rightwing Bushite corporations? Do we expect it to reflect the SEVENTY-FIVE PERCENT of the American people who oppose this war and want it ended? Not a chance, friends. Diebold/ES&S were fast-tracked into our election system precisely to prevent the American people from stopping this war. And we MUST be realistic about this, and understand what the real representatives of the people in this Congress can and can't accomplish.

That said, I don't think you can sell this $124 billion more for war as anything but what it is. More war. More death. More injuries. More injustice. More looting of the federal treasury. And for what? And for whom?

We mustn't be unrealistic in either direction. It's a war bill. It should never, never have happened. We SHOULD be withdrawing from Iraq, and drastically cutting back on military spending. (No more wars of choice!) It's the best that a Diebold/ES&S-influenced Congress could do.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #5
22. All noble and worthy things, however they are attached to a bill
That provides Bushboy with another 100 billion to continue to get war on, with loopholes big enough to drive a Hummer through. Loopholes like not having to pull troops out if they're "fighting Al-Qaeda" or "training Iraqi forces".

Sorry, but on the balance this bill puts blood of innocents on the hands of everybody who voted for it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #5
38. Let us do the math:
Good stuff you mentioned: 3 billion.
Funding an ongoing war crime in Iraq 96 billion.

What is wrong here is providing the basis for talking points like you just regurgitated to justify what this bill is of course actually about: enabling another two years of war.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 07:48 PM
Response to Original message
7. Yes! How can one continue illegal military actions if they don't feed
the defense industry with tons of cash?

Thanks. You bring up so many good points which just gets swept aside in the games they are playing.

another good opinion piece:



by DAVID SWANSON

The Supplemental spending bill proposed by Speaker Nancy Pelosi funds the war. It gives Cheney and Bush roughly another $100 billion. And you can be quite sure they will spend it as they choose, which may include attacking Iran. In fact, a measure in the bill requiring Bush to get Congress's approval before attacking Iran (an attack that would violate the US Constitution and the UN charter) has been removed.

The bill also requires Iraq to turn much of its oil profits over to foreign corporations. This illegally rewards the Bush and Cheney gang for their illegal war.

. . .

What else does the Pelosi bill do? Well, it requires Bush to report periodically that progress is being made, and then at sometime next year, depending on what Bush claims, it requires at least some troops to move to Afghanistan. Congressman Obey says that's where the war should be. The bill says nothing about bringing anyone home, and nothing about leaving no permanent bases in Iraq. In fact, it includes so many loopholes - for protecting bases, protecting other troops, training Iraqis - that most US troops will be able to stay in Iraq forever.

That doesn't sound like much of an anti-war bill. It gets worse. The two most disturbing things about the bill to my mind are the way it treats the president and the way it throws in unrelated benefits in order to bribe various congress members to support it. The bill asks Bush to report on progress in Iraq. A reporter asked Pelosi if there was any mechanism for determining whether Bush tells the truth. Pelosi replied that she was sure he would.

http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_david_sw_070322_why_the_progressive_.htm

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ccpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 07:53 PM
Response to Original message
9. if you really want to see this
as a way to continue the war, nothing anyone says -- or the facts they offer to support otherwise -- will convince you otherwise. if you want to recognize this -- supported by facts -- as a way to get much needed help, medical aid, support, provisions and gear to the soldiers in Iraq and elsewhere until they come home, you'll see that this bill takes a strong step toward doing this.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. There are two issues here
One: giving bush the authority and money to continue the war.
Two: supporting our troops.

The "pork" in the bill that supports the troops is a worthy and necessary appropriation, and should have been voted on separately in a straight up-or-down vote. Giving bush the money and authority to continue the war is an entirely separate matter that should have been voted on separately. Pelosi did great harm to the public's perception of Democrats by allowing "riders" (as distinct from "earmarks") into this bill. And for what? It's not clear the Senate will pass a bill similiar enough to reconcile in a joint conference committee (e.g., the changes may be so great as to necessitate another vote in the House); and the threat of bush's veto hangs over it all anyway...so what was the point?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
13. K&R-- exactly right!
This is COMPLICITY in war crimes, and it comes at a time when no one can claim to be fooled any longer by what this war is and what it's about!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
17. Sadly and exactly right. K&R
:(
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 09:15 PM
Response to Original message
18. the only posturing is from those who advocate sitting on our hands as a way to direct Bush
This act will be seen by everyone, except the Democratic(?) critics as a direct rebuke of Bush's occupation and a demand to end it by a date certain.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jcrowley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Who's advocating
sitting on hands? Sorry that's a false premise.

This may be seen by some as a rebuke of Bush but that is a matter of perception and degree. If there is any degree it is mild and the perception is misguided.

The rest of the world will not see this as some sort rebuke to the US occupation. Check the international media over the weekend.

This bill in it's practice if it makes it through is very weak. In it's degree of moral guidance it is despicable.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Just-plain-Kathy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
19. Great post...K&R...n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClayZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 09:55 PM
Response to Original message
21. When will we ever learn? K and R
How many deaths will it take till we know, that too many people have died!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 10:03 PM
Response to Original message
23. If Bush vetoes, that means he doesn't support the troops!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jcrowley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Bush won't veto
Edited on Fri Mar-23-07 11:44 PM by Jcrowley
nor does he care about "The Troops."

"A" funding bill will come to his desk. The ultimate version will be re-jigged He will sign it.

The Pelosi Plan is really ludicrous and upon close inspection fails to establish itself as some anti-war piece of legislation. The conversation and context would seem almost comical if it weren't so murderous.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BayCityProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. The Democrats
are doing the bare minimum needed to keep anti-war voters who don't actually read the bill or who will vote for anything with a "D" next to it...while at the same time remaining loyal to their real masters...Wall Street and AIPAC.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 01:59 AM
Response to Original message
26. This needs a kick! (already recommended) (nt)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
entanglement Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 02:10 AM
Response to Original message
28. Like gangsters discussing a botched crime - they're sorry only because they couldn't pull it off
n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Craftergrl Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 02:21 AM
Response to Original message
29. I noticed you forgot to add this part into it....
http://www.examiner.com/a-619204~Congress_loads_up__20_billion_in_pork.html

WASHINGTON (Map, News) - Congress has loaded up President Bush's request for "emergency" spending on the Iraq war with more than $20 billion in "pork" for members' districts.


That includes $74 million for peanut storage, $25 million for spinach growers and $100 million for citrus growers.

Is this ok to mention on DU or is this against the rules? I still kinda new and I'm not sure how much criticism is allowed in any given direction. :shrug:

We're spending billions on the war and if that wasn't bad enough, congress loaded it down with special offerings for their special interests back home. Or am I not reading that right?

I hope nobody minds me mentioning this because it royally pisses me off.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. That is the media spin
the citrus is the emergency relief after the freeze

The peanut, some story

Things that the 109th Congress should have dealth with

It also included levies for New Orleans

Out of the 12 speding bills that Congress needs to pass the do nothing congress (109th) only passed two last year... so expect to see soem of these emergency apropriations in bills
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Craftergrl Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. Sigh...
Thanks for the extra info.

I swear you can't believe 90% of what your see or read these days.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 02:45 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. True
That is why I at times watch hours upon hours of the SPAN...

It can be fun... but not like Parlaiment, where they are least get a two drink minimum
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #30
41. Most interesting to me is that the "Iraq Occupation" is NOT an 'emergency' ...
... and all the rest are for emergencies. They keep playing this hypocritical game and ignore the unalterable fact that we're funding a war crime.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 02:44 AM
Response to Original message
32. pretty much maintains the status quo
with a couple of bones thrown to returning veterans with medical problems, a dose of pork, and no real "deadline," as has been claimed here over and over. The reality is that troops can stay past September 1 2008 if they are doing what is currently the stated mission.


the other difference is that it gives king george more money for the illegal occupation of Iraq than he asked for.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. Then 'splain to me the tanter tantrum of King George?
Edited on Sat Mar-24-07 02:47 AM by nadinbrzezinski
Serious. If he got what he wanted, why the tanter tantrum today at the White House... and boy he LOOKED pissed
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #34
37. a) it won't make it through the Senate, so it's all just political posturing;
b) it boils down to Congress asserting their own authority over the blood-for-oil occupation, the "war on terror" marketing campaign and the crony capitalist slush fund. It doesn't eliminate any of those things, it just usurps king george's monopoly. Fascist machismo requires him to spray urine on as many nearby surfaces as possible.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #34
39. Posturing.
They will take another two years of war but will run with 'them damn interfering dems' as a campaign issue. In '08 as the war crimes continue and Iraq remains uncontrolled those 'damn interfering dems' will be blamed for the mess.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jeff uppy Donating Member (23 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 02:48 AM
Response to Original message
35. Here's what we get for our $:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jcrowley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. I saw that
Shooting at people brought those guys such joy. Sick.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
40. It costs a LOT of money ...
... to keep impeachment off the table. :puke:

All that money and them Iraqis still haven't bought us any flowers with it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LibertyorDeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
42. To keep control of Iraq's oil. Exxon, Chevron, Shell and BP can explain it
The rape of Iraq's oil
The Baghdad government has caved in to a damaging plan that will enrich western companies.

Michael Meacher
Guardian

About Webfeeds March 22, 2007 1:30 PM | Printable version
The recent cabinet agreement in Baghdad on the new draft oil law was hailed as a landmark deal bringing together the warring factions in the allocation of the country's oil wealth. What was concealed was that this is being forced through by relentless pressure from the US and will sow the seeds of intense future conflict, with serious knock-on impacts on the world economy.

The draft law, now before the Iraqi parliament, sets up "production sharing partnerships" to allow the US and British oil majors to extract Iraqi oil for up to 30 years. While Iraq would retain legal ownership of its oil, companies like Exxon, Chevron, Shell and BP that invest in the infrastructure and refineries would get a large share of the profits.

No other Middle Eastern oil producer has ever offered such a hugely lucrative concession to the big oil companies, since Opec has always run its oil business through tightly-controlled state companies. Only Iraq in its present dire condition, dependent on US troops for the survival of the government, lacks the bargaining capacity to resist...cont'd

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/michael_meacher/200

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Dec 26th 2024, 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC