Remember when Cheney and the RWnuts said that Obama would "change his mind" ...

[scheming daemons]

..about our interrogation techniques once he started getting the daily security briefings?


Heh.

Nope.

President Integrity strikes 'em down.

[JeanGrey]

1. Let me ask you a question and I want an absolute HONEST

answer.

Do all of you REALLY really think that torture is now over? That it will never happen again and that Obama won't know about it? I mean, really?

[scheming daemons]

2. Doing it now, in direct violation of a Presidential order, means court-martial

Let some freeper-type in the military chain decide to disobey his Command-in-Chief.

He better hope he's not discovered.

[leftstreet]

3. The message seems to be "the US" won't torture "in America"

Whether it's done by proxy in another country...

:shrug:

[CraftyGal]

4. President Obama seems to have his head screwed on and can actually think!

I believe it when he says no more torture. Look what he has been working on since the inauguration. Canada had refused to deal with Omar Khadar (spelling?), who has been in Guantanamo Bay since he was 16. He is a Canadian citizen and was detained for killing a US soldier. Now it looks as if Canada has to deal with him because of the closure of Guantanamo Bay.

CraftyGal

[riqster]

5. Not with the consent, nay, encouragement of the White House, it won't

I call that a good first step. Now, anyone who tortures has no backup.

[JeanGrey]

9. I think that is niaeve thinking.

[riqster]

11. No, systemic analysis

Under the previous paradigm, Bush actively encouraged torture, and so the worker bees who committed those vile, heinous acts would be able to use the same defense used by the Watergate burglars (Martinez-Barker, IIRC) - that they believed they were acting according to the law as it came in their orders from the Oval Office.

Obama has changed that. He is NOT supporting torture, and so anyone who does it will not have that cover.

Sure, there are revolting sadists still 'serving' our nation, and they will likely torture again-but they will henceforth do so with the knowledge that Obama will let 'em dangle prettily in the breeze.

[JeanGrey]

15. It will still happen.

[riqster]

20. Always has, always will. Humans are capable of great evil

...as well as great good, and everything in between. Obama can't be everywhere and watch everyone all of the time; what he can do is what he did: to return the policy of the US government to alignment with accepted International Law, as it was before the Bush Occupation.

[John Q. Citizen]

6. Laws and behaviors aren't always identical, but it does make a big difference

when a practice is made illegal.

Does slavery exist in the US? Yes

Do you know any slaves? I don't. The fact that it's against the law and it's prosecuted when discovered goes a long way to stop it from happening on a wider and more frequent level.

Do I think it's an important step for Obama to outlaw torture? Yes, I do. Very important.

Will a cop ever break somebody's nose because that person looked at him funny? Yep, I bet that happens some where and if and when it does I hope they bust the rotten leo perp and throw him in jail. Same for the tortures everywhere including here.

[JeanGrey]

10. I agree. I'm just saying that laws and behaviors will NEVER

BE identical and I guess I will never believe that leaders won't do whatever they feel is necessary, up to and including torture.

[John Q. Citizen]

13. There are some leaders though who believe torture isn't necessary.

Once you lose the high ground everyone wants you to fall. That's not a recipe for success.

You do realize that torture is about the worst way to get good information?


The issue of torture isn't just a moral question but also a question of what works overall in both the short and the long run. Just as some people will never intellectually get that spanking kids is counter productive to raising well behaved individuals, there are some people who don't get that torture is counter productive to winning insurgencies, stopping crime, or maintaining social control.

What sometimes appears to work in the short run can often be your long run downfall.

So I do also believe that there are people who get that.

[JeanGrey]

16. Well my dad lived through two wars and from what he told me,

they got plenty of info that way.

[Spike89]

17. No doubt, but how accurate and at what cost?

Most experts on interrogation claim the intelligence gathered is subpar when compared to non-torture sources. I've never heard that it didn't produce reams of information. The problem is that intelligence you can't trust is almost worse than no intelligence. Beyond that, torture incites the enemy and cedes the moral ground. Morale is built around believing that your cause is just and good, legal torture erodes morale and will lead to much bigger problems. It "works" sometimes, but overall it is a losing strategy.

[JeanGrey]

18. It was quite accurate. Saved many lives according to the

stories he told me.

[John Q. Citizen]

19. Your dad was a torturer? i hope he's brought to justice.

Which wars did he torture humans in?

[JeanGrey]

23. WWII. It was how they saved an entire company that had been

taken by the Germans.

Don't kid yourself. I know there are a lot of people who think the average guy can withstand anything but the truth is, they rarely withstand much.

[John Q. Citizen]

24. Where in Europe did your dad serve?

[JeanGrey]

25. Oh god I don't remember now. France I think. He died in

1992 and was 74 so I'm afraid my recall isn't that great. I do remember the stories though. I also remember the screaming nightmares he used to have.

[Spike89]

7. Always had a simple answer for the "24" torture question

You know, the one RWingnuts always pose..."what if a bomb was going to go off in NYC and you had the suspect in custody?" If you're such a patriot, you'd do the right thing then face the consequences. It is the same as speeding on the way to the hospital with a pregnant woman. You break the law if you think it is necessary and pay the fine. Emergencies are no reason to get rid of speed limits, they certainly aren't a reason to get rid of torture laws.

Although I would speed my wife to the hospital, I wouldn't torture. I know that speeding works, it is physics. Torture doesn't work. RWingnuts can't seem to believe that, but they never have a good comeback on the "break the law if you need to" argument. Torture is and must always be illegal under U.S. law.

[MiniMe]

22. I agree. You couldn't trust a word a tortured person says

And what happens when you spend time running after the wrong leads when you could actually being doing something productive.

[90-percent]

8. If

If the Bush White House WAR CRIMINALS aren't prosecuted for their treasons, then this will insure that the USA will be torturing away during some future Republican Adminstration that's not as nice as Bush's was!

-90% Jimmy

[riqster]

12. Good point!

Such discretion needs to be taken away from the Powers that be, so that it is never a legal option in the future.

[Jack Rabbit]

14. What would those idiots know what to do with a mind?

A mind is a terrible thing not to have.

[lunatica]

21. Torture also creates hardened enemies

As does war waged on completely innocent civilians.