Why are nurses being brought from other countries to fill jobs Americans need?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

I spent last night at the ER of a local hospital with my mom, who was feeling horrible. Every nurse I saw was from a foreign country and couldn't speak English.

The biggest problem we're facing in this country is ABSENCE OF JOBS. Granted, a HUGE part of that problem is the little party leaders had helping American corporations outsource so they could continue to strive for their goal (slave labor or something similar to it). However, that's not the whole problem.

I mean, here are some perfectly EXCELLENT jobs with good pay (nursing) and the U.S. Government is going wild handing out visas to people from other country, so these can occupy positions that out of work Americans so desperately need. Not 1 cent is spent towards creating new institutions to graduate new nurses. In fact, education gets cut, cut and further cut. Instead, these good-paying jobs are going to people who are not out of work Americans. They're people from outside our country.

The same thing has been done for yeeeeeeeeeears in the computer industry. The U.S. govt has been freely handing out visas to people from other countries to occupy these good -paying positions, rather than finding a way to get American out of work people to get the education necessary to occupy these fields.

Why is this being done?

It's horrific!

[musette_sf]

1. because they can pay them less

and they might not know their rights.

this race to the bottom MUST end.

[stray cat]

15. Not so much in this case - there really is a severe shortage

how many of the people you know are dreaming of becoming a nurse - although the job security and pay should make it an attractive profession. Jobs are offering to pay all student loans for nurses if they work for them for a few years. Some nursing programs are offering free tuition to men who will become nurses.

[musette_sf]

17. i guess that shows my age

back in the day, the majority of my sorority sisters were nursing students who really did dream about becoming a nurse.

i agree with one of the later posters, that these days, the education is just unaffordable and unavailable for many who otherwise would go into nursing.

race to the bottom - make any higher education unaffordable for anyone but the top 2% - and then fill all those jobs with immigrants.

[stray cat]

19. My mom was a nurse - her dad sold his only truck to pay her tuition

Employers paying off student loans for nurses makes it a good deal now. To try to increase males in the profession some schools will offer them free tuition for the degree.

[nebenaube]

28. Actually, I know about a dozen who just graduated

and they are not getting hired.

[inthebrain]

42. I am a nurse

Nursing is school is a real bitch. a lot of people either drop out or flunk out. It's also really competitive to get into.

I'm also a male and there is no free tuition for men.

[Mojorabbit]

139. When I went to nursing school

in the 70's they told us on the first day they would try and flunk us so we'd better preform. They only wanted those who had the drive and the smarts to graduate. I had a wonderful career as a nurse.

[bertman]

222. I wonder if that's the standard applied to those overseas nursing students? Ummm.

[SoCalDem]

70. and the ones who became nurses back when "women's jobs" were

nurse
teacher
secretary
Mom

well those women are retiring now..

[musette_sf]

91. yes, those "traditional values"

about "women's jobs" that tainted my early life.

i remember being depressed about this when i was a little kid... i was like, "that's IT?"

[GinaMaria]

180. or have left the profession as I did

It is grueling work, physically and emotionally and quite often just plain gross. In Illinois at the time I left, something outrageous like 92% of nurses admitted to being verbally abused on the job (by patients, their families, hospital administration, or doctors). I miss the patient contact and the meaning in my job, but the trade off has been worth it.

[hootinholler]

80. Is there a shortage of nurses? Yes. Do imported nurses work for less? Yes.

My sister is a traveling nurse as more and more come in the wages are forced down. She's looking at an $8/hr pay cut on her next assignment.

Continuing ed? Certifications/recerts? Yeah she can pay those expenses too.

-Hoot

[Greyhound]

92. Some reference please.

I completed pre-med with a very high GPA before switching to CompSci (who knew they would kill an entire profession to save wages?) and nursing, especially surgical, would be ideal, I just can't take any more school debt without some guarantee.

[Mojorabbit]

138. It is expensive

I am financing my niece through nursing school. Better to offer attractive grants so more can attend college.

[lolly]

189. Where is this?

All the nursing schools in California have had HUGE wait lists for years. It took my former sister-in-law 2 years to get into a JC nursing program, and she had top grades.

I work at a JC near Los Angeles, and the waiting list is several times longer than available spots.

Lots of people are dreaming about becoming nurses. Many are prevented by lack of access to nursing school.

[K Gardner]

158. No, they cannot pay them less. Nursing salaries are based on scale and experience, period. If

a student, intern, new grad, etc. comes to work at a hospital, they are hired in on a pay scale that is preset and well-defined for years of experience.

this is a WILD rumor and not true. I detest seeing posts like this (talking about the OP, not yours) where someone who had a bad ER experience extrapolates conjecture into fact based on supposition because someone isn't "born in America".

I've been a nurse for 24 years, board-certified in ER nursing, have done travel nursing and staff and management, and have worked with MANY foreign-TRAINED nurses. There IS a nursing shortage here, for many reasons, but if there were US nurses to fill the slots, they would be hired. Period.

Fact is, there are not.

[Hannah Bell]

168. fact is, it's because they're turning qualified applicants away.

fact is, reducing supply here & filling the gaps with workers from low-wage countries keeps wages down for everyone.

fact is, there are positions where they can pay less - e.g. temps, nursing homes, etc.

[K Gardner]

169. A "temp" worker costs double what a staff nurse does. I'm not certain where you are

getting your "facts", or if you're just making them up. Please cite your research for where "qualified applicants" are being turned away. Thanks.

[lolly]

190. See my post above

I don't need to do much research; every year I see the list of accepted applicants and the much, much longer list of people on the wait list for the nursing program at my JC posted on the door of their office.

[Hannah Bell]

193. Benefits, & qualified applicants to nursing schools.

[Horse with no Name]

223. The problem is instructors

You have to have nurses to train nurses and collegiate salaries are not a match for what the nurses can make in the private sectors...thus you don't have enough instructors.
There is an absolute number of students per instructor ratio that cannot be changed.
THAT is the ONLY reason any applicant is turned away from school--because they do not have enough qualified instructors.

[Hannah Bell]

242. if they're unable to get enough instructors at the current rate, the same

economic rule applies: raise the rate, raise benefits, or improve conditions. they choose not to, & offshore training to a cheaper labor market.

that's a policy choice.

[Horse with no Name]

243. One of the big differences

I know the point you are making and I respectfully disagree.
I have been a nurse for 20 years and there have been foreign nurses as long as I have been in because there is always a need for more nurses that has nothing to do with governmental control.
When a nurse is an instructor--she is usually over 8 to 10 students. IF one of those students fuck up (and they do), it is the instructors license that they go after. They really don't make it easy to be a nursing instructor. Lower pay, sucky hours and higher liability.

[Hannah Bell]

247. There have always been foreign nurses, I agree. There have

always been foreign everything. The question is the proportion. Currently 15% of new nurses are foreign trained. That is pretty much unprecedented, & it has to do with economics & policy choices.

I understand the license issue; it supports my point: compensation offered doesn't make up for risk, & isn't high enough to meet demand. So training is offshored somewhere that it doesn't cost so much when trainees screw up.

I respectfully continue to disagree with your contention that the use of foreign-trained nurses has nothing to do with government control. Government (& business) have the major input into funding & programming decisions regarding higher ed. Government & business *decide* immigration policy, *make* visa policies. This is fact.

[CTyankee]

198. My experience with our two hospitals here in New Haven, Yale and St. Raphael's,

is that the RNs are typically American. LOTS of the young docs are foreign as are the aides. But the RNs were not.

I have nothing but praise for the RNs I encountered during my husband's stay in Angioplasty at St. Rafe's. The nurses were informed, did all of the patient education, had lots of info on nutrition and other non-medical "lifestyle" issues. They were terrific.

My stay at Yale-New Haven Hospital in the spring of 2007 was not as user friendly but I found the nursing staff to be typically well trained. I got the feeling that they were stressed to the max and that resulted in not as good patient care, unfortunately.

[Taverner]

2. Because the Nursing path is not an easy one

Trust me - I know several women in the program. It is not something you can just "pick up"

[Rosa Luxemburg]

3. I haven't seen many 'foreign' nurses around here

[Greyhound]

93. Where is "here"? n/t

[begin_within]

4. Well, there is an oversupply of nurses in the Phillippines and a shortage of nurses in the U.S.

[dana_b]

9. bingo!

I work at UCSF and we are ALWAYS looking for nurses. most of the time we fill them with traveling nurses.

[Hannah Bell]

160. The Philippines has had an "oversupply" of nurses for decades.

You might ask yourself how a poor country like the Philippines can afford to consistently train more nurses than it plans to employ, while a rich country like the US can't afford to train enough.

[Hansel]

212. Good point. n/t

[AnneD]

260. Trained Nurses are the Phillipines leading export....

it is a cottage industry there. So many Nurses leave for the US that they have trouble filling local spots. Same in other countries.

[glowing]

5. Depending on the hospital, a few of them, are using temp firms to fill

their needs. This allows them around Unions, pay, etc. Many of these temp firms get to use anyone they can to fill their roles, including H1B applicants.

[mcctatas]

6. In my experience, as a an LPN and former student in an RN

program, there are simply not enough professors which leads to fewer and highly competitive positions in the programs and fewer nurses graduating each year. When I started in the nursing program there were 275 students but only 75 of them qualified to go on after sophomore year (needless to say, I graduated with a degree in Sociology, even a 3.4 gpa wasn't enough to get a spot)

[Lars39]

7. There aren't enough nursing programs to address the country's needs.

And that has to change if we are all to get health care.

[dana_b]

10. true

the nursing program that I was in allowed 36 students and it had over 100+ applicants.

[inthebrain]

43. Not enough teachers either

[Quantess]

108. The teaching profession is different altogether.

Some people have it in them to be a crowd controller, and some do not.

[Lars39]

131. Most of my former instructors were retired Army nurses.

:scared:

[w8liftinglady]

144. come to think of it-so were mine

[Lars39]

147. Hi,w8liftinglady !

:hi:

[AnneD]

261. I had several too....

:hi:w8liftinglady. How your son and how are you.

[Hannah Bell]

219. Similar in that upper-level education is being systematically underfunded though.

at the community college level, part-time/temporary/"insecure" workers teach more than half of classes.

at the university level, part-timers & graduate teaching assistants teach a large % of classes.

[TheKentuckian]

8. We can't get enough nurses to come close to demand

So, everyone brought in should be for a period of 2-4 years and require an American scholarship be granted for the field to replace them. If the help is truly needed then the price will be paid or if they can scrap by then those will be good jobs for graduates.

There's also the added benefit for the Reich that we can continue to make this a 3rd world country in the process, but their is a severe shortage that has to be dealt with in some way or another.

[grillo7]

11. There's a massive shortage that keeps growing...

and only so many nurses that can be trained in time. There's not only a lack of qualified instructors, but there's also not enough good clinical sites to support the numbers needed to quickly close the gap. The current general nursing program is already over-capacity right now, and some schools are experiencing high board failure rates after graduation as well. The current economy doesn't help either...domestic travel nurses are being used less frequently, and many hospitals have initiated hiring freezes, which causes serious under-staffing problems.

[OhioChick]

12. Same thing happening here......

I know of two nurses who are on umemployment. Workers on visas get paid less.....much less. It's all about that cheap labor.

[John Q. Citizen]

67. How much less? Got any documentation on that?

[OhioChick]

128. What my friends who are nurses and unemployed

is "documentation" enough for me.

As for the "documentation" that you ask for.....sorry, I'm not in hospital administration.

[Brooklyns_Finest]

13. Not enough professors

I saw a report on PBS last year that stated that nurses make more practicing the profession than teaching. The problem is not enough nursing programs in this country.

[rainbow4321]

23. Yep....the nursing professors are not sticking around

So even though there MAY be lots of people wanting to enter nursing school, the schools can't take them in because there are not enough instructors/classes.
So what we are looking at is a) people not being able to get IN to nursing school, b)LOTS of nurses/baby boomers retiring soon (really soon), c) nurses not close to retirement getting burnt out from being overworked and either leaving the field or leaving the inpatient/hospital setting.

[MountainLaurel]

130. At a college where I worked

The school built a state-of-the-art medical campus that combined teaching with a community clinic. The nursing program 5 years ago was only running at half-capacity because the school could not find nursing instructors willing to take a huge pay cut to teach. Eventually, the school gave up on the idea of the clinic.

[AnneD]

259. And in the middle of this shortage....

Nursing programs are folding. If Nursing programs were subsidized by the government like Med Schools were-we would be having a different conversation. Nursing always has been an afterthought in this country because it was woman's work.

Now days, with the equipment, number of patients and their severity, and hospitals desire for bigger better profits via cutting overhead, it should be a highly prized-well paid position (high 5 figures to high 6 figures. Most folks don't realize Nursing costs classed as part of the room charge-not a separate Nurse fee, like a Doctors fee. Yes, we are included in the cost of the room-no matter how complicated the case is and how log I am with one patient at the expense of my other patients...I come with the room.

Nursing is the only profession where getting an advanced degree is not worth is and the laws of supply and demand are suspended (I would apply the RICO act to some of these hospitals). You pay Nurses fairly, staff safely, and do away with this one shift fits all (12 hrs is ridiculous now that I am old and I hated it when I was younger)-more Nurses would come out of the wood work-but time is running out for America's hospitals. The last large groups of Nurses produced was the Boomers. And they are getting pretty tired of it. I plan myself to be retiring in about 5 years at the age of 59. I am still in good health-but floor Nursing is too difficult after a point so when I hang up my Crocs-it's for good. I will have a different job-totally out of Nursing because frankly-it's not worth it to me anymore.

FYI did you know that UPS drivers are required to lift no more than 50 lbs before they can request help. Most places I worked for required you to lift at least 100. You show me a patient that ways that and I'd say you must work with the Nursery or Eating disorders section.

And HB1's are another way to suppress wages. It's outsourcing on our soil.

[stray cat]

14. Because Americans were not interested in becoming nurses

Now the pay and prestige are much better but people can not be trained in the US fast enough to meet demand - whether from a lack of interest or a lack of schools. Men can get a free ride in some nursing schools and there are jobs that will pay off your student loans if you work as a nurse for them.

[Libertyfirst]

60. I am very familiar with several nursing programs and everyone of them has a waiting list.

[rainbow4321]

16. Because the local nurses are getting burnt out..and have a lot of options

besides working inside a hospital: insurance companies, outpatient clinics, home care, etc... I opted for the outpatient setting 2 years ago. Better hours, comparable pay, better benefits, no working holidays/weekends (mandatory in the hospital setting as a bedside nurse).

"Great pay"? Mmmmm, debateable, depending on where in the country the nurse works.
***Crappy workloads*** have alot to do with the mass exodus from the hospital setting. Try being on your feet for 12-16 hours, minimal bathroom breaks, eating your lunch in less then, oh, 10 minutes, because you know that taking a full 30 minutes just means you WILL be staying late at the end of your shift. Not worth it.
Nurses didn't suffer thru nursing school to have hospitals put them in situations where LOSING that license due to UNsafe patient care is a real possibility. Hosptial brass will throw a nurse under the bus in a NY minute.
The hospital I used to work at spent a LOT of time and money recruiting nurses from the Phillipines. And it is not just people who were nurses over there who are coming over here...a large number of *doctors* who want to come here but for whatever reason can't practice medicine here turn to nursing in the US. The US hospitals pay the recruits cheaper than the US based nurses but because they made sooooo little $ in their homeland, they think the pay here is great.

[w8liftinglady]

21. True-I am a med-surg nurse with 28 years experience

Yesterday-we were severely understaffed-AGAIN.I went almost 12 hours without going to the bathroom,eating,drinking.I am expected to have a smile on my face,as we are graded by patient satisfaction.I care about my patients.That's the only reason I stay in the hospital.I have worked with nurses from several countries.For the most part,they are very good,hard workers,but subservient.

[texastoast]

Thank you

I know how hard it is. I have several nurses in my family and the hospital setting can be a nightmare from what I've been told.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

53. My mother was recently hospitalized, and the nurses I saw were

running themselves ragged. There didn't seem to be nearly enough for the number of patients.

I wonder if nursing positions are being sacrificed to pay for additional layers of administrators.

[kikiek]

61. Hospitals are bleeding money. Uncompensated care, inadequate reimbursement, investment losses.

My hospital laid off some RN's, but not as many as they first thought. All low seniority since we are union. There is still a shortage so they don't want to lay off new RN's. The hospitals know that very soon the baby boomer's are going to retire, and they will desperately need the new ones. I have heard many older nurses say they're just waiting another year to 18 months and they're gone. I wonder how many of the new nurses will choose a different career in the meantime because the job market for them is terrible. It really is a bad situation. I should add we are union and well paid. I have no gripes with our compensation. I know all areas of the country are not as fortunate. Unions make a difference. We are proof here.

[Greyhound]

95. This is the 3rd post referring to "here" with no profile or location. Please give us a clue. n/t

[kikiek]

111. MN. It is a national trend that I expect to turn around with Obama in now.

[bliss_eternal]

86. You're very observant.

So many complain about nurses, and don't notice they aren't adequately staffed or supported. Nice to see someone notice this. The nursing to patient ratios are frequently inadequate.

[defendandprotect]

238. Remember when we began to understdand that Nurses were essential..

and should have higher recognition and higher salaries -- ??

Then the undermining began -- as in many other professions.

[tomp]

98. although nurses are well respected, americans don't really understand...

...how hard the job is. i'm a psych nurse and it's no less of a pressure cooker there. they're chewing us up and spitting us out and wiping the floor with us.

you think health care is expensive now? what do you think it would cost to have enough people actually doing the job?

i wouldn't worry too much about the foreign nurse thing. 1) be thankful if there's a nurse there when you need one, 2) the layoffs and job eliminations by attrition will be coming soon and they won't be "needed" anyway. the rest of us will just have to pick up the slack and do more with less. the system is going to break (you heard it here first).

[K Gardner]

159. I agree, tomp. I quit traveling and took the most "secure" staff position I could find last month..

the system IS going to break, sooner than later.

[Horse with no Name]

224. The situation has gotten so bad in our hospital

That filing Safe Harbor has become routine. Sad, isn't it?

[Ilsa]

267. This is why I left med-surg nursing. The patients get stepped down from ICU

prematurely. You can't properly take care of ten patients when there is an eleventh that has to have you in the room every 20 minutes emptying 3-way bladder irrigation, having a BP alarm go off constantly, and needing another blood transfusion. I'll never go back to a hospital environment like that.

[MaraJade]

18. it is horrific--

It's being done solely to have employees who are docile, and who will accept a much lower salary
(and perhaps little or no benefits). Also, these workers generally come from countries where people
live in fear of authorities. American nurses would complain about being spoken to disrespectfully by
doctors or managers, and they would file complaints if they were forced to work 16 to 24 hours straight
on a regular basis. These workers will never complain because of their cultural fear of authorities.

The loss of these jobs to American workers is serious enough, but the exploitation of these workers is
horrendous! The workers who come over on the H-1B visas
to do this work are being used, disrespected and taken advantage of. Period.

[stray cat]

20. For nurses there is a legitimate shortage. Employers will often pay off your student loan

if you work as a nurse for them for a period of time.

[Hannah Bell]

164. it's an illegitimate shortage. supply is being restricted at the educational level.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

25. Thanks, that's an interesting explanation. I think we need to do something about this don't you?

We need to DEMAND that the govt. start creating programs to graduate Americans in these professions, instead of going wild handing out visas. I mean, for godssakes, there's a horrific shortage of good jobs. The only jobs I see are burger fryer other and min. wage jobs. Here are these excellent jobs, better pay than burger fryer, and the govt. solves it by bringing in people from other countries. It's just wrong.

[rainbow4321]

56. Hospitals try to brag about getting "magnet status"

Which is SUPPOSED to mean that they attract and KEEP/retain nurses.

Sounds real good unless you have actually worked in a hospital and see behind-the-scenes bullshit that goes on to get the "status".

The place I worked at went for magnet status. Keep in mind that one of the things that is wanted is low turnover and high retention. My floor ALONE had roughly 80% turnover in a single YEAR. So those of us working on that floor were like "WTF, are they just going to HIDE our floor from the magnet committee??"
What was the hospital's solution? Gather all the recent Filipino nurses that they brought over and let them have a breakfast with the magnet committee inspectors/visitors. The recruits went on and on about how the hospital did wonderful things for them, helped them get apartments in complexes with fellow Filipino nurses, taught them US basics like how to open a bank account, got their kids enrolled in school/community activities, blah, blah, blah.
Between that and the hospital cherry picking from the staff the staff nurses who had their lips on managements' collective asses come hell or high water for one on one interviews with the magnet people, the hospital pulled the wool over the inspectors' eyes.

The magnet people fell for it all, praised the hospital for what they did for these nurses and wah-lah, they got magnet status.

Not ONCE did ANyone on that magnet committee ask "um, WHY is it that you are having to recruit nurses from OTHER countries?? Are the LOCAL nurses not wanting to work here?". Hell, just go to human resources and outright ask for the "I quit" stats from the last year.


Keep this in mind whenever you see a hospital trying to attract patients by bragging about having "magnet status". Most likely, the hospital is full of shit and pulled a fast one to get given the status.

[kikiek]

62. The answer to the problem is union. We have strong nurses unions out there.

I live in an area where most health care workers are union. I hope those that aren't will join.

[w8liftinglady]

75. true.I live in a "right to work" state-right to abuse is more like it

[kikiek]

112. We need the safe staffing laws passed.

[theboss]

118. Actually, that's not the case at all

There are literally not enough students in nursing school to fill the demand.

[Hannah Bell]

152. Programs are turning away qualified applicants.

[Hannah Bell]

248. Here's the report from *one* university program:

Wayne State University College of Nursing:

"About 1,600 people applied for admission to the College of Nursing this year. However, because of capacity and funding constraints, the college was forced to turn away all but 160 undergraduates."

[RB TexLa]

22. Would you be upset if they were American citizens who chose not to speak English and asked

that you speak what language they tell you to speak?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

26. Forget the fact that they speak no English to patients in a crisis life or death situation

How about the fact that there's rampant joblessness in our country? Why is the govt. not tackling this by training rather than giving out visas like postcards?

[John Q. Citizen]

72. If your heart attack can just wait a few years while we train up some more people, OK.

The problem is that we don't have a health care system, we have a hodge podge. The free market is suppose to take care of getting more Americans trained up, remember?

If all those kids didn't get their MBA and their IT credentials, then perhaps we would have more training up as nurses.

I don't recall nursing being that sought after as a job by most college kids. Maybe you should become a nurse?

[afredus]

24. Sounds like you have a problem with foreigners.

Who do you think built the country?

[eridani]

27. People are leaving the profession in droves because management treats them like shit

Change that, and you change the shortage problem.

[SharonAnn]

85. Amen! That's the way to get people to leave, and they do it to nurses.

[old mark]

106. I spent a few years in the nursing department of a state hospital, and

I can tell you tha management went out of its way to make the job more difficult, and increase stress on the employees. I came in with a group of 12 new hires and after 2 1/2 years I was the only one still working there. That pattern of persecuting employees seems to be normal for Pennsylvania, at least for the State Hospital system under the Department of Public Welfare.

There are a lagre number of lawsuits every year by employees and former employees, and the cost and effort of training new staff is enormous, but the state - and Governor Rendell - doesn't seem to care at all.

mark

[Freddie Stubbs]

29. How do you know that the nurses were brought from other countries?

Is it possible they immigrated here and became nurses?

[mucifer]

34. I'm a nurse. I've worked with many Filipino nurses they are trained in the Philippines

and come here. One of the best nurse I've ever known is Philippine. It's sad that the government doesn't fund more nursing schools here. It's too expensive for most people these days.

Another factor is in the past women had fewer choices. Now women have such diversity in career choices nursing is often seen as "gross" or too sciency.

[Freddie Stubbs]

114. The OP is from South Florida. There are not many Phillipinos here

[bliss_eternal]

90. I asked this down thread...

...and was told, "...it's just obvious."
Translation--anyone speaking a foreign language couldn't possibly be american. :eyes:

[Occam Bandage]

30. Because there aren't enough American nurses to fill those jobs. Should they just pull random people

off the street and put them in scrubs?

[GreenTea]

38. Many doctors and hospitals treat Nurses (RN) like shit, like they are McDonald workers

They pay nurses the very lowest wages possible and purposely keep all hospitals, nursing homes and wards understaffed to save money...then blame it on nurses and a nursing shortage....

It's truly a shame the way they treat nurses with degrees! Many places will find ways to fire nurses if they try and start a union or are eve sympathetic to unions...it's disgusting...Many nurses are so overworked that thousands a year just leave the profession and do anything else.

So they bring in foreign workers, many don't speak English, hospitals can & do pay them less, and patients don't get the care or expertise they deserve and pay for, the hospital and doctors get it.

However, doctors are treated and expect to be treated like God's and are grossly overpaid (like CEO of corporations) thanks to the AMA...I've watch this bullshit for over 26 years now.



Edit: (I also poster this below - where I really wanted to this was a mistake).

[Greyhound]

96. H-1(b) workers, regardless of the field, are virtual slaves. They do not dare to speak up,

or complain, let alone file official grievances, or hey are out of a job and on the next plane back to wherever they came from.

The H-1(b) program is travesty and must be eliminated and replaced with some sane alternative. It was written by corporations for the benefit of corporations.

[eilen]

170. The CEO of one hospital I worked at

stated that all the flight attendants from the airlines that were laid off could come and fill the nursing positions.

The doctors were considered the hospitals "customers" at another hospital (a very large chain located in the South) and the nurse doing the new employee orientation actually told us we were to do exactly what they said as they "outranked" us (whether or not the order was inappropriate or not-- doctors make mistakes too). I had previously worked in a more collegial environment so this was quite a shock. Imagine my shock when these doctors were giving their overnight call responsibilities to their clinic nurses. Hard to believe for me, who worked in NY where only doctors could give medical orders. I likely had more experience, credentials, and was more qualified than the young thing on the phone, why did I even have to bother calling her? I had the advantage of actually seeing the patient. I told my manager that calling nurses at night and taking orders from them amounted to practicing medicine without a license.

Apparently this practice was in the policies and procedures of the hospital. So, don't have cancer treated at HCA if you can help it. Go to Vanderbilt where there at least are doctors/residents on service 24/7.

[provis99]

31. same thing happening in Canada

They are importing tons of Filipino nurses, even though medical schools are turning away Canadian citizens in droves from nursing schools, because there are not enough slots open. Reason? The Canadian and American Medical Associations are to blame.

There is also a shortage of doctors in both countries, even though qualified applicants are turned away from medical school because of lack of slots. The CMA and AMA deliberately limit the number of doctors and nurses, in an effort to keep wages and profits for doctors and nurses high.

In essence, the problem is occurring because the CMA and AMA are full of greedy bastards with too much lobbying power in Ottawa and Washington.

Nurse training and doctor training should be completely be taken out of the hands of the medical associations, and put in control of the state universities. Each country could then easily turn out five times as many practitioners as they are now, who will be better qualified and trained than these dubious foreign imports, and the shortage will be cured, with positions filled with native citizens.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

33. I totally agree with you!

You said: "Nurse training and doctor training should be completely be taken out of the hands of the medical associations, and put in control of the state universities."

This is exactly what needs to happen.

[John Q. Citizen]

73. The AMA has been waning for years. There are many other organizations that are larger and

far more representative.

Don't know about the CMA. The AMA is dying out.

[malaise]

32. You pay them less and what's more

we train them for ourselves and watch them migrate because as low as salaries are there, they're better than in Jamaica, Trinidad and Tobago, etc. Same with our doctors, teachers, etc.

[Adsos Letter]

41. Pay them less? Is there a two-tier system in the nurses union?

here in California unionized nurses make an excellent wage/benefit package.

The problem here is that the average age of nurses is in the 40's; there just aren't enough young people coming into the profession to fill the needs of an expanding, aging patient base.

[Azlady]

35. Yep, I have a friend who is a trauma 1 nurse... they are having a

terrible time and her friends are having to do travel nursing, from town to town, to just keep a roof over their families heads... WHEN are we going to stop the Worker Visa Programs & Outsourcing.... DAMN!

[Sarah Ibarruri]

37. The govt. apparently wants to give billions to CEOs and not to training Americans to become nurses

In a land whose job openings now are McDonald's and Burger King, the govt. will not do anything to create more nursing schools to fill the only good jobs the U.S. seems to need people in.

[inthebrain]

39. I'm a nurse and don't have any problems

A lot of the nurses currently working are going to retire. Things are starting to open up all over the place and there are jobs aplenty.

The thing with nursing is that there are a lot of people taking it and ussually about 2/3 of the class graduating. Nursing school is a grind and one of the hardest majors one could ever take.

They are not graduating nurses fast enough and the shortages are already becoming apparent with a population that's just getting older.

Lets not even get into the human cost of the war which is going to open things up at the VA.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

49. Very few schools and not enough teachers or funds create this situation

I'm all for them spending some of that bailout money on nursing schools and using some of these "outside" nurses to teach the courses. We need to have our citizens occupy our jobs. God knows there are precious few jobs that pay a decent wage. Most jobs have been outsourced from our country and left behind are McD's and BK.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bliss_eternal]

82. .............................!

:bounce::applause:

:yourock:

[Sarah Ibarruri]

36. I have an idea.....

The govt. needs to spend money to open nursing schools throughout - make them boarding schools. Hell, if they can give billions to CEOs as bailout, who then go party this money away, why on earth can't we spend some millions on schools to train Americans? Have scholarships for American disadvantaged. Why not? Let's quit with the handing out of visas so people from other countries can take the few well-paying American jobs there are left.

[KoKo]

40. Obama would do well to put lots of bucks into Health Care Professionals Training...

Those are jobs that could stay here at home and we wouldn't have to keep importing Nurses and other Med Tech Care. With all the aging boomers this would be money very well spent.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

44. Exactly! We're hearing there are no jobs yet here there's a desperate shortage and

instead these jobs are going to people outside our country instead of to our unemployed. I'm going to e-mail whitehouse and suggest this.

[inthebrain]

57. I don't see you in line making sacrafices to go to nursing school

I highly doubt you have the stones to get down with the "great unwashed" and do it.

You ain't pitting me or any other nurse against our brothers and sistahs!!!!

I got my union card. Where's yours?

[bliss_eternal]

84. No, they'd rather just trash the system, the nurses...

...and anyone speaking anything other than english. They'd rather make a lot of assumptions about who "should be here."

:puke:

[Sheltiemama]

45. My alma mater may cut the nursing class numbers in half.

It makes no sense.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

51. It's horrific nt

[GreenTea]

46. They pay nurses the very lowest wages possible and purposely keep all hospitals, nursing homes

and wards understaffed to save money...then blame it on the pay of nurses and a nursing shortage....

It's truly a shame the way they treat nurses with degrees! Many places will find ways to fire nurses if they even try and start a union or are eve sympathetic to unions...it's disgusting...Many nurses are so overworked that thousands a year just leave the profession and do anything else.

So they bring in foreign workers, man don't speak English, hospitals can & do pay them less, and patients don't get the care or expertise they deserve and pay for, the hospital and doctors get it.

However, doctors are treated and expect to be treated like God's and are grossly overpaid (like CEO of corporations) thanks to the AMA...I've watch this bullshit for over 26 years now.

[bliss_eternal]

77. Wow...

...you sound like so many of the nurses, I've been friends w/over the years. :hug: If you are--know that some of us SO appreciate what you do. It's such hard work.

[inthebrain]

47. BTW this is nothing but xenophobic crap.

As stated earlier, I am a nurse.

I am apalled that you are trying to pit American nurses against foreign nurses.

[burythehatchet]

52. thank you so much for saying that. Nurses rock, no matter where they were born

and without the foreign nurses filling the demand we would be in big trouble.

[inthebrain]

55. No, THANK YOU!!!!

I am a nurse and so appreciate reading that from you!!!!

[bliss_eternal]

87. ....they do rock.

I LOVE nurses! A nurse saved my life, once upon a time.

[bliss_eternal]

81. Thank you.

I agree, and applaud you for calling this what it is. Hate speech, disguised as patriotism. Much like the bs spouted on fox news.

Sorry I'm responding to your post so late. I was so taken aback by the op, and attempted to address that, I didn't read through all the responses. I'm so happy to see yours. :thumbsup: You can see my posts down thread, attempting to call the poster on this. I'm completey appalled by this thread.

I worked in medical field, briefly. I even considered nursing for a breif time, but went another direction. I've known personnel and hr people in hospitals and clinics. They "love" finding bilingual RNs, LVN's and medical assts. They are well suited to assist with the non-english speakers who get ill, are uninsured and frequently find their way to hospital er's.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

141. thank you . nt

[Horse with no Name]

226. Thing is

You won't pit foreign nurses against American nurses because American nurses know and understand why they are there.
It has nothing to do with lower wages...it has to do with staff willing to work at THAT particular hospital.
In one shift I have worked with nurses from the Phillipines, Africa, Zimbabwe and Canada and honestly have never seen this an issue with nurses--usually just people on the outside looking in have problems with it because they don't understand the demand.

[anonymous171]

233. Xenophobic? What's xenophobic about wanting workers of all nationalities

to be paid properly and not pitted against one another?

[MadMaddie]

48. The Medical Establishment in it's infinite wisdom

had massive layoffs in the 80's they forced many qualified nurses out of their jobs....save money blah, blah, blah...many of those nurses left the nursing field and went elsewhere.

What the Medical Establishment failed to realize is that the nurses they kept employed would eventually retire.....and now the brilliant Medical Establishment can't find enough nurses....

There are not enough nursing schools, to get into a nursing school there are long wait lists.....

This was explained to me by a friend that is a nurse...

[Sarah Ibarruri]

50. The 80s... Reagan period. Figures. Well, I'm hoping Obama will help Americans take these jobs

So we don't have the situation where our jobs are either exported, or workers imported while our people remain on the unemployment line.

[bliss_eternal]

65. Why do you assume this....?

:shrug:

That the nurses you speak of were NOT American?
Lots of immigrants (legal and otherwise) are employed by hospitals in this country, and many of them are not native English speakers.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

66. Because in between not understanding what they were saying....

... and they not understanding English, and even making one mistake in the ER with my mom, a nearby patient's adult son who was sanding out in the hall, asked me asked how it's possible to have a whole department of nurses from outside the country. It was quite obvious. And this hospital isn't the only one. I brought the topic up at lunch at work today and all hospitals in our area seem to hire nurses from other countries.

And yet the govt. will not put any money into training Americans, so these can occupy available American jobs.

[bliss_eternal]

71. Still sounds like "assumptions..."

Quote:
It was quite obvious.

What makes it so obvious? Was there a sign on their forehead saying..."I'm not American"?

Or do you just assume anyone not speaking English fluently is "foreign"? And why is that?

Sounds like the sander was a like minded person that made many of the same assumptions you do.

As one that has worked in the medical field, I'm aware that many hospitals employ people HERE. Those that do 'import' do so because the need is so great and there aren't all that many qualified people here willing to do the work. There aren't any people in the unemployment line that WANT to work as hard as nurses do, day in and day out--nights, weekends, holidays 12-16 hour shifts, wiping bums, cleaning vomit, and all that goes with it. Think about that.

Much of your post and this thread is assumption based. You'd rather assume people aren't employing Americans, than face the realities of working in health care, and what hospitals have to do to meet their needs.

[Hannah Bell]

There are plenty of people on this thread who are nurses, who work in hospitals & who know

what's going on.

What's going on is deliberate restriction of supply & wages, both in education & nursing. And in the case of the Philippines (US economic colony), deliberate creation of supply as US policy. The Philippines trains them, then the US hires them, & it's planned & funded.

[bliss_eternal]

174. I was supportive of information presented by nurses.

Reviewing my comments I don't see that I've disagreed with any actual nurses. In fact, I agreed with a couple and shared support for what they stated.

However, I did take issue with specific comments by the op that seem insensitive, presumptive and xenophobic in nature. The op didn't present any facts--just lots of comments about people not speaking english.

Do you have a question? Or are you just here to reiterate what I've already read for myself? Or perhaps you just like to enter disagreements between others because you enjoy being combative, and unnecessarily argumentative.

[Hannah Bell]

196. I didn't realize one had to have a question to post. What is yours?

Similarly, I didn't realize that it was "unnecessarily combative" for me to take issue with an aspect of your post, but not for you to take issue with someone else's.

The poster says she & her mother, as consumers of health care, experienced communication problems that reduced the quality of care her mother got, & that most of the nurses on the floor were non-native speakers of English. Do you think she made this up out of racism?

But the thrust of her post is, why is the US importing nurses instead of training them at home? That's a legitimate question, & it's not "xenophobic" to ask it.

[bliss_eternal]

202. Well, now you know.

:hi: And as a reminder, my issue was w/the op's comments--the way the comments were made, and what they chose to focus on (i.e. non-english speaking nurses). Other nurses in the field, also found their comments objectionable and said so above.

I won't entertain your need to argue. Maybe someone else on this thread will.

Bye, now.

[Hannah Bell]

207. Yes, you have to respond to every one of my posts to say you're ignoring me to get in the last word.

pfft.

You're "arguing" with the OP, but you can't tolerate being "argued with" yourself.

The OP could have been more politic in her wording, but the thrust of her post had nothing to do with xenophobia. Questioning why the US can't train enough nurses to fill its need is a completely legitimate question.

[Hannah Bell]

157. dupe

[Freddie Stubbs]

109. In case you haven't noticed, there are a large number of immigrants in South Florida

Haiti isn't exactly known for its education system, yet their are plenty of women from Haiti who are nurses at Jackson Memorial Hospital in Miami.

[Mojorabbit]

142. When I quit nursing in the late 80's

they were importing lots of nurses on visas. I imagine the same thing is going on now. It isn't anything new.

[bliss_eternal]

179. I'm not doubting the trend.

I have experience (and friends) in the field. I also read (and responded in support of) a nurse that commented about her experiences with this trend upthread.

My issue is with the member I responded to.
I've already stated quite clearly what I took issue with and why. It has nothing to do with the trend.

[bliss_eternal]

68. Contrary to your opinion...

...there aren't all that many hospital workers on the unemployment line. Medical work is hard--dirty, frequently not fun--you get yelled at, attacked, dirty, etc. Sometimes people leave the field because they just don't want to be exhausted anymore.

Your presumption that so many Americans are being passed over....or the people you saw weren't Americans, based on their ability to speak something other than English...is troubling.

:(

[Sarah Ibarruri]

69. Flipping burgers is dirty, hard, you have to clean floors, equipment, etc.

We've all seen what these min. wage workers have to do for their measly check. Nursing is no harder, but gets paid more.

I'd rather have the govt. set up schools for nursing and send Americans there to take these jobs that are in such shortage of personnel than be freely handing out HB1 visas like they're candy on Halloween.

[marchellojones]

74. I find it interesting

that you keep ranting about foreign nurses taking jobs from the Americans but not actually provide any numbers of how many American nurses are unemployed,graduate each year,retire each year,etc to back up your claims!
If you have to wait in ER and that made you feel frustrated or your mom is ill and you want to share the feelngs with someone please do so!

[bliss_eternal]

76. Flipping burgers isn't equivalent to wiping asses...

...or cleaning vomit, picking up bed pans, etc.

Let's be clear here. I asked you questions BEFORE I assumed. You've merely made more assumptions. Ugly one's at that.
You'd rather assume there's some great conspiracy against Americans, that none of the nurses you saw were American and anyone speaking anything other than English---can't be American.

Do yourself a favor.
Look at some hospital employment websites. They are filled with ads for "bilingual wanted"...for techs, medical assistants...and nurses. The world is growing more diverse, not less so. Emergency rooms are filled with sick people whose first language is something other than english. I guess you'd prefer no one be available to communicate with them.

Oh and those great paying nursing jobs? They require at least three years of college prep courses. During bad economic times (like these) nursing programs frequently are impacted. Meaning there's a waiting list to get in. So before you go creating hateful threads, about all the 'influx' of assumed foreign nurses, maybe take the time to learn the issues behind what you think you see.

[burythehatchet]

137. my guess is the poster coudn't handle one shift before tearing out of the building

[Hannah Bell]

165. my guess is you don't know what you're talking about.

[burythehatchet]

200. and as is the norm with your deep thoughts, you would be wrong.

[bliss_eternal]

204. LOL!

:hi:

[Hannah Bell]

210. Oh, you know the poster & her capabilities? Forgive me, I thought you were just

engaged in gratuitous personal attacks.

[bliss_eternal]

178. You're probaby correct...

...as I see no offer w/in the thread (or interest) on their part to enter the field personally. Just lots of complaining about those that are in field, that speak foreign languages.

[Hannah Bell]

197. The assumption that consumers of health care can't comment on that care unless they're ready to

put on scrubs is a non-starter.

If that's the standard, DU should shut down. Unless you're willing to enter Congress, shut up. Unless you're willing to set up a factory, you have no standing to complain about off-shoring. Unless you're willing to become a policeman, zip your lip about response times. etc.

[Name removed]

215. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hannah Bell]

162. There's a waiting list because the government & business wants there to be a waiting list.

There doesn't have to be a waiting list. There doesn't have to be a shortage of nurses. It's not an accident, it didn't just "happen".

[bliss_eternal]

177. What do you mean...?

:shrug:

...and why are you singling out my comments? I'm not the only one here to take issue with the op's comments.

Do you care to be more specific, and present some actual "information" about nursing school waiting lists and the nursing shortage?


Otherwise I'll go with the information I'm aware of--based on facts, and prior personal experience with impacted allied health programs. I'm not in the habit of giving credence to statements offered in an effort to be contrary (or argumentative).

[Hannah Bell]

199. I'm not singling out your comments, sorry if you got that impression. I

respond to comments, not names.

Most nursing programs turn away applicants that meet the qualifications for entry, as a number of folks here have mentioned, & I linked some data as well.

One nurse posting here said she had to apply several times to get in. At my local community college program, qualified folks who don't get in the first time they apply are given first preference if they apply the next round.

When qualified people can't get into training programs, yet there's a personnel shortage in the field, this means the supply of personnel is being deliberately limited. The decision not to fund & staff more nursing programs is a political decision, not an act of God.

[Name removed]

203. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hannah Bell]

205. I responded without snark to you. I don't appreciate your snarky response:

"Since comprehension doesn't seem to be your strong suit, this means, I won't be seeing or reading YOUR future replies to me"


Even though you won't be reading, I note the stupid resort to personalism & the necessity to get the last word in by announced use of the "ignore" button.

Now I'll respond to your argument:

1. Other fields turn away qualified applicants - but they don't have shortages in the field. This is the difference you won't acknowledge.

2. How to fund education is a political decision: if the government chooses not to expand nursing programs in the face of a shortage, someone is deciding that, & thus deciding to bring in nurses from elsewhere. This is obvious on its face, a basic economic postulate - despite your silly blathering about "conspiracy theorists".

Contrary to your apparent assumption that shortages "just happen," or because there's not enough money for nursing programs, the government - federal & state - sets education spending priorities, & balances them with other priorities.

If there's not enough money, it's because they set a low priority on having domestically trained nurses, & prefer to import.

3. I had every right to respond to the initial post you made, as did everyone else. You're not on a private handholding board. You challenged (& attacked the motives of) the original poster, I challenged your reading.

If your tolerance for polite criticism is so low you have to announce your use of "ignore" in every instance, too bad for you.

[inthebrain]

230. The waiting list is not due to some big government conspiracy

In order to teach in the classroom most states require a Masters Degree. A lot of nurses that get that far don't think the pay justifies the headache. So there is huge demand for a job nobody in their right mind wants to do. It's just not worth it when you can get a much higher paying job in management or adminstrative position.

School Nursing pays better.

Secondly, and this is the sad part, Nursing School is a fucking grind. Not everyone makes it through. It's hell taking three semesters worth of pre reqs just to get in the program. When you get in you have to set aside your whole entire life just to survive. It's stressful, tons of material and the clinicals are just about having the instructor fuck with you to see how much you can take.

It ain't easy and not a lot of people get through.


Anyone can't just walk and do it even after getting all those prereq classes out the way. I've seen people who were pre meds and law school graduates get frustrated and quit. The material is tough and not everyone has it in them to get through. Many of them found those other majors easy.

[bliss_eternal]

231. I appreciate a nurse weighing in on this.

Thank you. :thumbsup:
Apparently, someone that's worked with waiting lists (and been on a couple) I'm not a viable source for this thread.

[inthebrain]

234. The whole process of nursing school is hard to explain to people

It's something they have to go through themselves to really understand it. When I went, my wife had a mother and a brother in law go through and she still doesn't get it.

Mostly only other nurses get it. They know what it's like and even being on the other side of the ball ain't crazy about jumping in and teaching. Why would someone bust their ass to get a Masters so they can teach a class of stresses out people while they can get paid better doing something else.

Shittiest day for a nursing instructor is the last day of the semester. Everyone is anxious about their grades and want to kill you. Many folks find out that three years of hell has gone down the tubes because they got a 74.

[inthebrain]

235. I should also add

This is why I tell people to go scrub up and do it.

They think anyone can walk in and be a nurse in three years?

Good luck.

Try it out.

[bliss_eternal]

241. I believe it's appropriate...

...advice in many cases.

I have the utmost respect for what you do. It's challenging work that has been historically diminished as it was seen as women's work. Men entering the field have to deal with being minimized based on such stereotypes. Too many make assumptions about the work and the field. Not enough make an effort to truly understand the issues affecting nurses daily, by listening to nurses.

I know that I shouldn't, but I do take offense at seeing such important work, and those that do it--undervalued and broad brushed.

[bliss_eternal]

240. I wouldn't have thought so...

...but it makes sense that someone would need to have experienced it firsthand, to a degree--to understand. Given the complexities of applying to programs, getting admitted and completing.

Though, I get the sense that some folks online aren't open to opposing views, especially when it contradicts their long held beliefs. Some need to be right, others seem to enjoy arguing. :shrug:

I shared as a former pre-nursing student, who has friends (and relatives) in the field. Also as a prior state university employee with friends still working in admissions and school relations. I'm quite familiar with the waiting lists, lottery systems and the many hopeful applicants attempting to gain a spot. (I also try to stay abreast of some of the issues facing nurses in my state--I read the trade journals...i'm such a geek). lol. I like to know the employee's view of the issues we've had to vote on regarding health care, nursing ratios, etc. (Our gov. declared war on the nurses a few years back :eyes:).

There was a well regarded program near me, that got funded for brand new facilities and skills labs (state of the art equipment found in current facilities). It was a huge deal, written up in the local papers and everything. Unfortunately, they couldn't find any Nurses interested in taking the drastic pay cut (and the increased stress) of becoming nursing teacher/professors. The additions to the lab were put on hold, indefinitely. :(

[Hannah Bell]

245. according to you & your cheering section, nursing is the toughest profession out there,

few can handle the pressure.

but now you tell me professors have even more stress than nurses, & that's why nurses don't want to be professors.

gee, i've been a professor, so i guess i can hack nursing, too.

[Hannah Bell]

244. "A lot of nurses that get that far don't think the pay justifies the headache."

If the pay, benefits & working conditions in a labor market don't attract enough applicants, it means the compensation offered is too low. That's a basic economic principle, & what's *supposed* to happen, in a properly functioning market, is an increase in compensation until supply meets demand.

So if there aren't enough teachers, it's the result of policy decisions - not some unalterable social fact.

Nursing School is no more of a grind than many other programs. Nursing programs haven't gotten significantly tougher than they were in 1998, but the % of foreign-trained nurses was lower. In 1998 they weren't significantly easier in 1995, when the % of foreign-trained nurses was higher. What changes is the economic & policy climate.



There are people waiting to get into programs & some % of them would get through given the chance.

How big is the gap?

"About 1,600 people applied for admission to the College of Nursing this year. However, because of capacity and funding constraints, the college was forced to turn away all but 160 undergraduates."

Pretty big. And in fact, the US seems to be training fewer nurses than it used to. This is explicable only by outight program cutbacks.

"A recent report from the Michigan Center for Nursing – Survey of Nursing Education Programs: 2002-2003 School Year – shows that the state's nursing education programs are graduating fewer nurses, even though the demand for nurses has been increasing. According to the report, there was a 7.2 percent decline in the annual number of graduates from undergraduate nursing programs between 1997-98 and 2002-03 (from 4,260 to 3,951). Nearly 2,100 qualified applicants were turned away from Michigan nursing education programs due to the lack of faculty and clinical training sites."

http://allnurses.com/nursing-faculty-nursing/nursing-education-news-107181.html

You say, "It's not some government conspiracy."

It's the result of government decisions about what to fund & what not to fund. The government has made a policy choice. It's deemed nursing funding to be of lower priority than other choices - like increasing university administrative staff & salaries, for instance. This is indisputable fact. This is not UFOs & lizard people.

The word "conspiracy" is used as a put-down.

[defendandprotect]

239. Right . .. just how naive are we all still . . . ???

[Sarah Ibarruri]

214. Excuse me? I said the pay was bigger

Please stop trying to make it seem as if min. wage frying burgers is the same as the high paying nursing jobs.

And on that note, I am now going to ignore you, so you may post away and I will not see you. It is clear that you have a bone to pick, and maybe you can go pick it with someone else. bye

[bliss_eternal]

229. Nursing is harder than flipping burgers.

You diminish the nursing field and those in it, (in my opinion) when you say it isn't harder than flipping burgers.

Nurses have to deal with human beings, and all that goes with that. Yes, they are paid more--most jobs that require at least an associates degree for entry, and a certified skills test do pay more than fast food jobs. But they aren't frequently treated a great deal better than fast food workers. Which is what I've read nurse after nurse share in detail in this thread.

Quote:
Flipping burgers is dirty, hard, you have to clean floors, equipment, etc.
We've all seen what these min. wage workers have to do for their measly check. Nursing is no harder, but gets paid more.

[marybourg]

59. The HMOs became a force in hospital staffing

in that era, refusing to pay what fee-for-service insurance had been paying, telling hospitals they were overstaffed, forcing hospitals to replace RNs with LPNs, LPNs (who I think are wonderful nurses) with "nursing aides" and nursing aides with nobody. Another example of government "learning from business", per right-wing ideology.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

63. Interesting. That's it exactly. When government "learns" from business...

.. govt. ends up learning exploitative lessons. Many are impressed with private enterprise. I'm not. For every positive in private enterprise, there are so many negatives...

[mainer]

124. By "medical establishment" I hope you don't include doctors

Doctors have always valued RNs -- in fact, it's doctors who decried the layoffs of highly trained nurses. And research shows that patient outcomes are directly related to the number of RNs on the ward. Doctors are completely focused on patient outcomes.

The decision to lay off nurses came from the corporate side -- the administrators who are trying to keep hospitals profitable.

[AZBlue]

58. Probaby because there's a nursing shortage here in the US

[bliss_eternal]

64. A few questions...

...how do you know the nurses were all "from a foreign country?" Did you ask them? Or did you just assume this because they seemed fluent in languages other than english?

...is it possible these nurses just speak other languages fluently, because they are immigrants to America?

...ever heard of traveling nurse programs?

I mean no disrespect, but I see a lot of assumptions made in your post.
Not sure why, so instead of making assumptions of my own--I took the time to ask some questions, because maybe you aren't aware that...
1)there's a nursing shortage.

2) because of said shortage, nurses are often allowed to travel from other parts of the country and sometimes overseas--to meet the need.

3)medical personnel whose first language is not english are in high demand--because our world is growing more diverse. Someone has to be able to communicate with the non english speakers.

4) the people you presumed were nurses could have been medical assistants or techs. They are frequently used to staff hospitals for lower level work and to assist the rn's--because of the shortage.

respectfully submitted.
bliss.

[Silver Swan]

78. I have a nursing license

I went back to school at age 38 to get a BSN, back in 1985. (I had a BA from many years earlier.) I attended college at night and worked full time at my regular job during the day. I really wanted to be a nurse. I graduated with high honors, and I passed the licensing exam with a high score.

But I realized I did not have the personality to be a good nurse. I was so shy that I feared talking to patients, doctors, and other nurses, and I knew that would affect the quality of care I could give.

I don't know why I'm posting this, but when I read about nursing shortages, I feel guilty that I was not brave enough to use my knowledge to care for people. I'm retired now, so I know I will never work in nursing..

[bliss_eternal]

79. There's nothing wrong with leaving the field...

...because you realized it wasn't a good fit, what you wanted, or felt ill suited.

And just because someone creates a thread, calling out hospitals for employing staff with foreign language skills, and dares to say it's unamerican--doesn't mean you should feel bad. You aren't the one that should feel bad, or concerned. We have to do what's best for ourselves in this life. I hope you found a career you felt better suited for. :hi:

[csziggy]

83. They may not be "brought" here but have immigrated

There is a huge medical migration of medical professionals from other countries to the USA and other prosperous countries.



Medical Migration
By Margaret G. Zackowitz
Graphic by Mollie Bates
The world is facing a critical shortage of doctors, and the prognosis is getting worse. The United States, the United Kingdom, Canada, and Australia are all struggling to meet their populations' health care challenges. Unfortunately for much of the developing world, wealthy nations are drawing doctors from countries where the need for medical professionals is especially urgent. Restrictions to limit brain drain are often ineffective. Better hope may lie with Western investment. New York's Weill Cornell Medical College helps train medical students at the Weill Bugando University College in Mwanza, Tanzania—a nation where there is one doctor for every 29,000 people. The program's first ten new Tanzanian doctors graduated in November.
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/12/community-doctors/follow-up-text

Some medical professionals come here to train and decide not to return to their home countries. Some train elsewhere then come here rather than stay in their home country to practice. The same pattern is happening with poorer regions in this country - medical professionals would rather move to more populated areas where they can have more lucrative careers and better facilities.

[bliss_eternal]

97. Excellent point.

But I don't get the sense the op is open to any "facts." Look through this thread. There's nothing but assumptions, based on the op being "offended" by people speaking languages other than english.

Does it mean these people are foreign? Not necessarily. They could be Americans raised within cultures that allowed them to become bilingual. Does the fact they were heard speaking other languages mean they aren't capable of speaking english? No. These are all assumptions on the part of the op. Clearly the op doesn't know many diverse or bilingual Americans, and also isn't aware how in demand such people are.

Our world is becoming more diverse, not less. Employers are (and always will be) open to hiring trained/educated people who can help them serve their culturally diverse clientele. The op sounds like fox news.

[csziggy]

99. The big worry is the lack of good medical care in many poorer parts of the world

Including more rural and poorer areas of North America. The bit I posted from National Geographic was a sidebar to an article about a program in India to train village medical providers - an excellent article, by the way.
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/12/community-doctors/rosenberg-text

[bliss_eternal]

100. Thank you for that...

...it is an interesting article. I've taken medical anthropology and sociology and am fascinated by issues like this.

[Hannah Bell]

246. a problem exacerbated when the best & brightest leave to work in the US.

including 3rd world doctors who retrain as nurses to get visas.

because the US chooses to raid the 3rd world rather than pay the price of training its own nurses.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

104. I say what difference does it make where the worker is from?

The important point is how the worker is treated.

[bdamomma]

123. that is very interesting, thanks for posting.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

216. That's precisely the problem. Good jobs that could be going to Americans....

are being given to outsiders in a time when there's a SERIOUS shortage of jobs. This is wrong and must be changed. HB1 visas must be stopped.

[kath]

88. Wages are way lower than they should be, and just looking at ads, they seem to have decreased over

the past decade or so - seems like it's just one more way for the rulers to stick it to the workers while increasing profits.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

94. That's the thing. Immigration per se is not the problem

If immigration is being used to undercut wages in a particular occupation, then we need to look at it.

[bliss_eternal]

102. self delete.

.

[bliss_eternal]

103. self delete.

.

[Igel]

89. Not enough programs, not enough slots.

A decade back UCLA reduced its nursing program, intentionally. They weren't in the business of training workers--they preferred to focus on policy, on research. So the professors were "repurposed" and taught courses to traing policy-oriented, theory-oriented nursing students, and the large contingent of clinical staff was reduced.

Don't know if this was reversed or if the cuts were made deeper. They were stupid. The nursing students put up a struggle, but it didn't matter.

[ecstatic]

101. oh goodness. And here I thought that nursing was the only recession &

offshoring proof job. Guess I didn't think about the reverse offshoring possibilities. :eyes:

[shintao]

105. Once the ball rolls you can't stop it.

[eilen]

171. I don't know if you are aware of this

but most professional nurses find characterization of nurses as sex kittens/ sex objects as very offensive and disrespectful. I realize you may not be cognizant of this so I am not trying to flame you, just inform.

[Smith_3]

107. Because "Teh foreignerz are steeling out jobzz !!!111"

:eyes:

[Hannah Bell]

167. no, the ruling class is holding down wages & offshoring some of its social

costs to its low-wage colonies.


but it apparently suits you to pretend its about racism & xenophobia.

it suits the ruling class, too.

[Vinca]

110. I think I've read there is a shortage of nursing schools in this country.

Even if there wasn't, the cost of going to college is prohibitive for many Americans. It's insane.

[spinbaby]

113. I know a nurse who works in a coal mine

He has a masters in nursing, but working in a coal mine pays more. He says its less stressful, too.:shrug:

[deaniac21]

115. Foreign nurses are better looking.

[TwilightGardener]

116. Foreign nurses aren't displacing American nurses--I was a nurse, and the Filipino nurses

I worked with simply filled a glaring need, because they were TRAINED and LICENSED already--can't wait for more local American nurses to graduate from nursing school. Nursing is not an easy profession to break into--often a waiting list for schools (I had to wait several years), and that's partly due to the fact that the clinical portion of nursing school MUST be a low teacher-student ratio for adequate training and supervision in the hospital or clinical setting. It's also NOT an easy academic program--it's not like getting a dog groomer's license, for fuck's sake. I say that as a person who always had an easy time in school, having earned an unrelated bachelor's degree prior to attending nursing school--nursing programs are very intense--you are learning in-depth medicine, pharmacology, etc. in addition to nursing skills. Many people wash out--there is a certain percentage of incoming students who just don't have the aptitude, even if they have the will. And then you have people like me who work as a nurse for a while and realize they just don't want to do the job for whatever reason, because there's a lot NOT to like about it (overnight 12 hour shifts, working on Christmas, having to pick up extra patients because someone called in sick, having to float to units in hospitals where you have no experience, etc.). I hate to think of how insanely hard my job would have been without my excellent, hard-working Filipino/foreign colleagues. Believe me, when you're a nurse, you are relieved to see almost ANYONE who shows up in your unit to take patients so that you don't have to take more than you can handle.

[Hannah Bell]

166. You were apparently qualified to enter nursing school, since you eventually got in.

THAT'S WHY THERE'S A NURSING SHORTAGE!!!!

Supply is being restricted. It's not an accident that most nursing programs have waiting lists. It's nothing to do with needing small classes & hands-on training - same with vets, but no shortages there.

Nurses work for corporations, unlike most vets, & corps want low wage labor.

[TwilightGardener]

184. Your post makes no sense. Nobody is artificially "restricting" the supply of nurses, it's

just a matter of having enough qualified teachers, nursing school programs, and students who want to be nurses and can pass the NCLEX. Nurses work in many diverse areas (including non-profit facilities and government agencies), they're not little corporate drones for the most part. I never worked for a health-care "corporation". And there is simply not a need for veterinarians as there is for nurses, in sheer numbers. Nurses are a major component of the health care system.

[Hannah Bell]

194. if qualified nursing candidates aren't able to receive training in the face of a

longstanding personnel shortage, that's exactly what it means.

Qualified teachers etc. come from training programs. Training programs aren't being funded. Hence limited slots, hence "shortage".

"Non-profit" HMOs are money-making ventures, despite the non-profit label. You should read up.

There isn't a shortage of vets because the number of slots in training schools is calibrated to meet expected demand.

[bliss_eternal]

206. Thank you...!

Quote:
Nobody is artificially "restricting" the supply of nurses, it's just a matter of having enough qualified teachers, nursing school programs, and students who want to be nurses and can pass the NCLEX.

:hi: I appreciate your comment!

I worked on a university campus for three years, and still have friends working in school admissions. You're right in that there are so many factors that come into play--none of which is some grand conspiracy intent on restricting the nursing supply.

In my lifetime--I was aware of at least two major nursing shortages here in CA. Both times, one of the major issues impacting the situation was school funding in CA--severe budget cuts, and lack of nurses available to teach new nurses (as nursing school program professors). With such issues, schools can only accept so many people per semester. They do the very best they can.

Some are on a lottery systems (which accepts only applicants w/the highest gpa to each class, each term). Others have waiting list acceptance policies (eventually those on the list get in). It varies by school demand and individual policies. But no one is limiting nurse supply because "off shoring" is oh so desirable to health care. :eyes:

[TwilightGardener]

213. ...

:hi:

[theboss]

117. There is an incredible nursing shortage

I work for a hospital that is actually doing well.

We just hired 300 nurses over the last two years, and it was like pulling teeth to find them.

If you have a son, send them to nursing school.

$85,000 a year for 3 or 4 days a week of work.

[TwilightGardener]

119. LOL! I didn't make anywhere NEAR 85,000 as recently as three years ago.

[theboss]

120. Depends on your location

I may be over-stating slightly, but I know what nurses in our system make.

[TwilightGardener]

122. I made about $21 an hour when I quit--there were higher-paid nurses

in my hospital who signed special contracts to float to different units as needed and work more weekends, but they were chosen by management. I made regular floor nurse pay. I just don't want anyone out there to go into nursing with an unrealistic notion of earnings--and yes, it does vary by region.

[theboss]

129. Out of curiosity, what state are you in?

DC Metro region here.

[TwilightGardener]

133. Nebraska.

[theboss]

136. Well...there you go

My guess is $21/hour in Nebraska is like $45/hour here.

[kikiek]

150. Our union wage is

what you are describing, but full-time pay for I'd say a 10-15 year nurse. I think it is a great job, and it will be in high demand again soon. The hospitals are not immune to this mess we are in, but they will survive.

[Midlodemocrat]

191. BSN friend here makes $75,000 for a 32 hour week.

RNs make less, LPNs even less.

One friend who is a BSN who works in a pediatric doctor's office makes $56,000, for four days a week.

You can practically write your own ticket here if you are have a BSN. THey are pretty rare and very much coveted.

[Vektor]

237. Bay Area, CA

New grads, fresh out of nursing school can easily make 100,000K per year, especially if you work night shift and get paid the differential. Holidays and overtime are time and a half pay. Many places offer sign on bonuses, of anywhere from $3,000 - $10,000 dollars. Base pay is often around $50 per hour, add differentials and holiday/overtime pay, and you can make a really nice, albeit, demanding living.


I work three 12 hour shifts a week, and was able to put a generous down payment on a nice house in a very nice part of the SF Bay area within exactly one year of graduating nursing school.

Is it the most grueling, trying, emotionally exhausting thing I have ever done? Yes, for certain. But it is also very rewarding, and a gateway to many, many career paths that an RN degree can put you on. A good, prudent, sharp RN can pretty much write his or her own ticket, and in exchange for a little bit of blood sweat and tears (quite literally) can start building quite a nest egg in a field that will always have job security, and countless options.

Right now, while I am still a young, and a bit of a nocturnal adrenaline junkie, I work Trauma/ICU, night shift, and about 95% of the time, I LOVE it. Other times, it's the greatest challenge of my life. But I love a good challenge. :-)

[TwilightGardener]

263. Um...that's nice. I don't live there.

And I spent my five years as an RN working 12-hour night shifts in various ICU's--had all the adrenaline rushes and grueling challenges I could ever want. It was neat for a while, never thought I'd get tired of it, and then I got tired of it real fast. Turns out I'm not a "stress junkie", I hate staying up all night and never feeling rested, I hate having to have my family Christmas and Easter and Thanksgiving celebrations on different days than the rest of the world, I hate not being home for fourteen hours or more at a stretch, and I hated feeling guilty and worried and responsible every time my patients didn't do well, no matter how well I performed on the job--the constant fear of making mistakes grew unacceptable to me. So I left the profession for the time being, and while I miss aspects of it, most of it I don't miss at all, and my stomach pain and sleep problems have miraculously disappeared. Glad you're excited about it--I once was, too, when I first graduated. Hope you stay that way.

[Vektor]

264. I know you don't live here...

I was just participating in the conversation about salaries based on location. I probably won't want to do this exact thing forever, but right now, it's serving me well.

I have a hell of a lot easier time staying up all night than I do getting up in the morning - it's "mornings" that ruin my body/soul/psyche, not nights, and orienting for a few months on days KILLED me. Night shift has been very kind to me, I've never slept better.

The facility I work for is very good about the holiday scheduling, and we get to pick and choose which holidays we REALLY want off, and which ones we would be willing to work if we had to. So many nurses WANT the holiday pay, that you often don't have to work any holidays if you don't want to. Surprisingly, many nurses are lined up ASKING to work holidays. (?!?!)

I don't internalize too much about most of the stress of the job, but what will most likely drive me from the bedside sooner rather than later is the ridiculous amounts of bureaucracy in the health care field, the obscene amounts of responsibility heaped upon the RN's to continuously increase their workload doing things that are NOT related at all to patient care, (but the "budget" won't allow them to hire enough people to do the things RN's used to not have to do, and shouldn't be doing) and the unchecked megalomania of many of the doctors and several of the other nurses, actually.

For now, I like what I'm doing (for the most part) but will likely end up in a cosmetic dermatology office zapping brown spots off middle aged ladies' "decolletages" and obliterating crow's feet with Botox in a cushy downtown office while wearing a white lab coat and sipping latte's before you know it. :crazy:

In all seriousness, like, you, I will probably not do this forever, but for slightly different reasons. I'm sorry that you suffered the stress that you did. I have had times like that too, depending on the job/location. Nothing they teach you in nursing school can really prepare you for that. Whether or not it's sleep issues, long shifts, fear related to having other peoples' lives in your hands, rampant bureaucracy, or crazy, rude docs and battle ax co-workers, there are many reasons to LEAVE this profession, or at least the bedside, which is why there is such a shortage in so many areas.

[AnneD]

265. Be sure to have 3 things....

A good disability policy, term life, and malpractice.

From a Wellseasoned Nurse to a Newbie.

Wages stayed flat for the first 10 years I graduated and hospitals were laying off Nurses because of the DRG regs. Sounds like you are in a sweet spot. Just remember-they may pay well in Ca. but it is not like that in the rest of the US. I saw them advertise for a Nurse instructer for an ADN program. Had to have a Master's etc and they were willing to pay $20 K something (think it was under 25)I swear I did a double take. And when I first worked in a rural area they only paid $15/hr in 2000. Now my cost of living was just as much in the large urban area I came from but I was told


are you ready for this....




and they were serious......




you get paid in sunshine.....

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

well the day I can pay my Mastercard in sunshine-that might mean something to me. I told them I didn't put the key in the ignitions for less than $20 and that was only if I couldn't find something else. But PRN rate are not as high as they are in other places and I still can't qualify for a home on my nursing salary. There are many areas in the country where Nurses salaries are artificially low. I am not cut out to be an ER person-and we know how much our society values children and the folks that take care of them. And they pay even less for those that take care of the elderly even less.

[Vektor]

266. Ah, I know, thanks for the tips. Sunshine?

Bwaaaa-hahaha!

Right, THAT will pay the bills.

I realize that I am in a good place, geographically for a fair salary, and that it is not so good in other areas. Competition was fierce to get a job here, because nurses are flooding in from all other parts of the country (and the world) for these wages.

I'm wondering how long it takes to not be considered a "newbie" anymore. I've been in it for two years now. Is it five? Just curious. ;-)

I'm appalled at what nurses are being paid in other parts of the country. I have only ever practiced here, but some of our travelers (many choose to stay on in CA) will tell you that experienced nurses are making $16 - $17 dollars an hour, etc, and for such valuable work, I feel that's an insult.

I keep my fingers crossed that nursing will gain the recognition, respect, and pay that it deserves, eventually. We are making strides in some areas, and have much further to go in others. The simple fact is, we NEED nurses. There is no two ways about that, we simply cannot do without them, and if more and more people leave the profession early, or choose not to enter in the first place due to rampant bureaucracy, poor wages, and the extreme stress of increasing responsibility with less pay, something is going to give. Even at this early stage in the game, I wonder how long I'll stay at the bedside myself.

[AnneD]

268. Newbie vs Seasoned Nurse.....

A newbie will try to re-orient a confused patient...a seasoned Nurse will let them enjoy their fantasy as long as it doesn't interfere with her work.

A newbie can hear a pump beeping from down the hallway...a seasoned Nurse can't hear one beeping right next to her.

A newbie comes to work with a fanny pack filled with tape, pens, clamps and wearing a stethascope....a seasoned Nurse comes to work with a pen and her lunch.

A newbie finds the patient's family dynamics interesting...a seasoned Nurse avoid them as much as possible.

A newbie is excited by it all....a seasoned Nurse has seen it all before.

You'll be a seasoned Nurse when you hit the glass ceiling-and you'll know.

I don't know if you read one of the posts I did where they were wanting a Masters prepared Nurse to teach an ADN program and they wanted to pay the grand sum of between 21k-25k. I wanted to throw up. CNA has done more to better the lives of Nurses and patients than any thing I have seen. They are trying to gain a toehold here in Texas and at the Medical Center and just the threat of them coming in has made the management nicer to their Nursing staff.

I am serious about taking out a good disability policy and term life. I have had too many folks that have had career ending injuries and WC doesn't do crap. I pestered a friend to join the the AFT (school nurses fall in to the teachers union). Finally she joined but in 2 years developed a latex allergy. The Union went to bat for her and we helped save her job (they were wanting her to take the cheesy WC disability). She was so sweet to me and thanked me profusely for saving her life and her career-and how I had really made a difference. The 2 folks that I worked hard to encourage to join have both come back to thank me for keeping after them.

Just remember to take care of you. The way to be financially successful is to manage risk. In our business, personal injury and lawsuits are a risk that can be managed by insurance and I strongly advise malpractice and disability. I have seen what happens if you don't have it. Don't rely on the hospitals. You want to have your OWN attorney with your interest at heart in the court room or before the Board of Nursing.

Also, never pass up a chance to be politically active and lobby. Nurses carry real clout in a hearing. If you remember to KISS (keep it simple stupid) when talking to legislators-they listen to Nurses.

[Vektor]

270. Seasoned vs. Newbie weighing in...

I'm at least part way there.

A newbie will try to re-orient a confused patient...a seasoned Nurse will let them enjoy their fantasy as long as it doesn't interfere with her work.
Reorienting simply doesn't work, at least not for more than a few seconds. If the fantasy doesn't not involve ripping out a central line or launching over the bed rails to break a hip, I say enjoy the ride.

A newbie can hear a pump beeping from down the hallway...a seasoned Nurse can't hear one beeping right next to her.
Maddeningly, I can hear them in my sleep, miles from a hospital.

A newbie comes to work with a fanny pack filled with tape, pens, clamps and wearing a stethascope....a seasoned Nurse comes to work with a pen and her lunch.
Tape, pens, clamps, bandage scissors, hemostats, sharpies, a penlight, highlighters, red AND black pens, trusty Littman around the neck etc, but often forgetting my lunch and eating salt and vinegar chips from the vending machine. :blush:

A newbie finds the patient's family dynamics interesting...a seasoned Nurse avoid them as much as possible.
The very first time I EVER got a whiff of "family dynamics" I knew with 100% certainty to avoid it like the plague and that I wanted no part of it.

A newbie is excited by it all....a seasoned Nurse has seen it all before.
Mixed bag here, seen a lot, but still occasionally get a perverse thrill when something truly astounding and anomalous happens.

You'll be a seasoned Nurse when you hit the glass ceiling-and you'll know.


I will take your advice and look into malpractice and disability. Thanks for the funny and wise insight. :hi:

[bdamomma]

121. this is happening everywhere bringing nurses in from other countries.

there are not enough nurses, but it also depletes their own countries of nursing care too. vicious cycle.

[northernlights]

125. shortage of nurses, GPs, lab techs...

Overall there has been a severe shortage of nurses and other healthcare delivery staff.

In Massachusetts, the 1st state to put through a universal health care plan has highlighted a severe shortage of GPs. Recently a Mass doctor was interviewed: she works 7 days per week, has 3,000 patients, and her staff has people begging and crying to be accepted as a patient.

There also are waiting lists of students trying to get into nursing and lab tech programs.

Although the pay is pretty good (better for nurses than techs) and job pretty much guaranteed, understand that unless you get picked up by a community willing to pay your education, the costs of education are very high.

Also understand that the hours can be horrendous, you must be at work no matter how horrible the blizzard or hurricane is outside, and every day you will be exposed to virulent, antibiotic resistent pathogens. It is dangerous, hard work and needs to be recognized and compensated as such.

I have suggested to the Obama health care transition team the follow:

1. increase the size of existing training programs to eliminate the waiting lists. This will (re)employ more professors, give some of the newly unemployed a new direction, and fast track the ready-to-go students being forced to keep taking out loans and taking unnecessary courses (like me) while they wait for an open spot in their program.

2. increase and widen the availability of Pell Grants for healthcare delivery people. And make student loans provisional -- and forgiven on certification. This ensures students are serious and get through the programs. It also relieves them from loans the size of a mortgage to deliver what is, after all, a community service.

The long-term benefits to society will be to

1. unclog the healthcare delivery system, and
2. limit fees and salary needs at the backend, without huge loans to pay back and with a better balance between supply and demand.
3. give healthcare delivery people more discretionary income to spend on things other than interest on huge debt, which will support business other than scumsucking money-lenders.

[mainer]

126. There's a shortage of surgeons and primary care doctors as well

It's been hell finding doctors to take care of my mom. As we all age, it'll only get worse.

[Bu Megdi]

127. A word of wisdom.

"C'est beau de contempler les ruine des cités, mais c'est plus beau de contempler les ruines des humains."

[riverdeep]

132. Seems to me this is a great area to invest for Americans.

If it makes me a 'xenophobe' to want American citizens to be the first in line for the benefits of living in this country then so be it. Don't tell me there aren't Americans who don't want to do the job, that's bullshit. Working as a taxi driver is an excellent way to get yourself killed, but people do it. Messy, disgusting, soul-killing work and abusive employers? Try working in a typical slaughterhouse.

I think a lot more people who are qualified would take that career path if it didn't seem like there was a war declared on nurses by the hospital and if nursing schools were made more affordable. I don't want to see what happened to construction happen to nursing. Construction used to be a hard job, but a job that you could support your family on. Since the industry started hiring illegals as commonplace, wages have fallen catastrophically. Now, even firms that want to do the right thing and hire Americans can't compete on a bid with the rock bottom wages firms that hire illegals pay.

As a stop gap measure, fine. But as a long term solution, no. We should be recruiting and training Americans.

[dkofos]

134. They work cheap.

Not enough nurses being trained in this country, thanks to the AMA.

[chrisa]

135. I was majoring in Nursing, but then I realized...

That I could make more money in computers, not be treated like a fastfood worker / servant, and not have one of the country's most stressful jobs. Every nurse I've ever seen either hates their job, or is burnt out. No thanks.

Also, the hospitals purposely understaff because they're cheap. They don't care if it causes the nurses to make mistakes because they're constant rushing.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

140. there is a severe shortage of american nurses. not everything is a vast conspiracy

against the american people

[AnneD]

269. This shortage was engineered by the health care industry.....

it was nothing more than an attempt to cut costs and increase profits. I can give examples where Nurses that wanted to unionize were blackballed at every hospital in the city. I can give examples were a Nurse amply qualified was turned down at the HR department-and the unit told know one had applied (the unit manager sent the Nurse to apply for the position-so we caught them red handed in that game). Now if they can do that, they can engineer a shortage-paranoia is sometimes justified.

It's not against the American people, LaLioness, it is for the profit.

[Canuckistanian]

143. American hospitals are always up here in Canada recruiting

And the nurses I've talked to say it's GREAT money.

Most don't stay down there, though. They work a few years, then come back to Canada.

[cynatnite]

145. Because there is such a shortage of nurses that there isn't much of a choice...

Thank a nurse...no matter what country he or she is from.

[treestar]

146. Americans don't want to be nurses - it takes a certain personality

or willingness to deal with people on that level. I know I could never be one. Or a doctor, either.

This is the flip side of this - Americans get to choose what they want to be. What'll we do, force Americans into nursing school?

If they are here and licensed, then they certainly DO speak English. Maybe they just don't want to talk to someone who is obviously hostile.

[Hannah Bell]

154. Bullshit. There's plenty of Americans who want to be nurses, & have the personality for it.

Nursing schools are turning away qualified applicants; competition for places is intense even in community college programs.

[eilen]

148. I'm an RN and

I've applied for two positions and have not been called back. I took some time off for about a year and a half (now more) as I was getting seriously burnt out. I'd been caring for cancer patients and those with blood diseases for eight years. The year I quit, I took two months giving end of life care to my father who was dying of lung cancer. I had a very hard time readjusting to the unit. For one thing, while our evaluations graded us on obtaining our certifications in the specialty of oncology (I was certified), the hospital changed its policy and sent us various medical surgical patients that not only did not have cancer, but other conditions and procedures in which we were unfamiliar with. In addition, they tended to admit a certain patient type to our floor-- long term, very hard to place patients with behavioral or special issues (like severe morbid obesity) as well as respiratory isolation -- rule out TB, etc. because we were not considered "busy" enough although we were the only floor that could administer chemotherapy and the only floor in the entire city that admitted and treated bone marrow transplant patients (leukemia, etc.). Most of our cancer patients were very susceptible to infections and as staff/charge nurses we could not guarantee their safety in that regard because we had no control over admissions. We were not allowed to transfer patients to the appropriate floor.

Add to that being short handed and having to work with increasing inexperienced staff. I would often have to take their chemos as well as my own. We would often get agency nurses who would claim their religion prevented them from administering blood products (which duh! is what you do on cancer wards, particularly with leukemics!). So I would take the transfusion which is 15 minutes sitting with the patient in the room monitoring for any reaction as it starts. Fifteen minutes might not sound like a lot of time, but when I have my own patients as well... It generally means no break. I would leave work dehydrated with a distended bladder every night. Then, the family phone calls while I am trying to assess all my patients wanting information I can't give over the phone. Please, never call a hospital floor before 8:15 am -- the nurse most likely has no idea how your loved one is as she is doing rounds-- let her finish them, then she has meds to pass and insulin to give.

Most nursing programs are two year. I didn't get my BSN because it didn't pay to. I have 10 years experience, a BSN won't pay me anymore but I end up with a bunch of debt unless I want to become a manager. Most hospitals will not cover your school loans. Some might offer a percentage for an indenture. Some offer educational benefits but they are not very flexible with the hours -- unit needs take priority. There are no programs for RN (bedside nurses) like there are for teachers in underserved areas, actually, there is one but it is underfunded. Most nurses would kill for a union like the teachers have, most of our unions are paper unions. However, I'd only want to work for a hospital that is unionized. It is the only avenue in which you have a chance for a fair shake. I have a friend who works at the VA and their union is pretty sucky.

So most nurses aren't qualified to go on for a Master's degree and then a Doctorate which is what institutes of higher learning require for professors. Taking on the debt for a Masters (which, incidently, qualifies a nurse to be a practitioner-- aka a Doctor's goldmine) and then a Doctorate, to occupy a department which, honestly is no high-prestige nor high-priority dept. for a college thus gets a substandard budget and then take on ten milleniums who think they know everything already on a clinical floor (they are all on your license) "supervising' their care during clinical training--well, I guess I'd rather flip burgers than be on the hook for someone's life and/or being named in a lawsuit because the student didn't check the blood sugar or name bracelet before sending their patient to the OR. I used to have fantasies of working for a pizzeria when I had a patient teetering on crashing but the chief resident or night float was too arrogant or terrified to make a decision to call in the SWAT or transfer to a ICU.

Meanwhile, you are treated like a servant and screamed at from both ends. What blows my mind is that nurses are the product the hospital is selling. Yah, there are doctors and surgeries and tests but patients would not need to stay in hospitals if we were not needed to care for them- they'd just go home after whatever treatment was given to them, whatever surgery. Many insurances won't pay for homecare which was supposed to be managed care's big ace. I really feel like the system does not work. As a nurse, I am barely able to provide any healing therapeutic environment. It is task after task after task. We don't have time to give baths, do hair, nails or make toast and tea.

I finally stopped reading the obituary section of the paper (old people and nurses, that's who reads them).

We get a fair amount of Canadian nurses and they don't usually stay much longer than a year or two. The work visa issues are expensive and while the hospital may help, they are not always.... punctual. Most of our intern/residents are foreign nationals (India, Pakistan, China, Middle East, Lebanon). They are very bright, smart hard working people--their visa issues are usually found at Dept. Homeland Security's door, the college is very good at making sure paperwork is in order. We have some Ukrainian and Spanish speaking nurses who are good--there is a sizeable community in our town. We pretty much appreciate any help we can get.

No matter how much experience you have as a nurse, every job you start, it is like starting over all over again. It is sometimes humiliating.

[redqueen]

155. Fantastic post.

:thumbsup:

Thank you.

[eilen]

176. Thank you. And I didn't even mention mandatory overtime...

or compelling employees to take extra shifts throughout the week, or pulling new grads off orientation because of staffing issues, or being forced to admit patients in the hallway as there are not enough beds so they can keep the ED open longer, or having to work every holiday (not every other) and not being able to take a week vacation in the summer because of lack of of seniority, being paid the "base rate" salary for holidays and vacations rather than your usual hourly pay that has "differentials" for categories like "med passing" or "shift" or "two-year" or "speciality certification".

If I had to do it over I would have gone to PA school, diagnostic test technician or into teaching. I wouldn't want to be a doctor either.

[riverdeep]

175. Yeah, you get the doctors and administrators yelling at you,

AND you get the patients and their family yelling at you. 'Servants' is the word.

This might be somewhat controversial, but I think one of the reasons nurses are treated this way is because it's been a traditionally female-dominated profession. Generally speaking, when females dominate professions, the status goes down and so does the pay. Think teachers. The norm that was established is a male doctor and a female nurse. The doctor is in charge of life and death and so is given free reign to treat underlings anyway at all that gets the job done, so the theory goes. Old habits die hard.

[bliss_eternal]

183. Seen what you speak of firsthand...

...thanks for sharing--great post! :thumbsup:

Mandatory overtime, swing shifts, split shifts (in some facilities), nights, weekends, major holidays, no time to take breaks, to eat, to think, etc., etc. The health hazards and stresses are many, the support is frequently insufficient at best.

Most of the nurses I've known deserve saint status, or at least shrines built in their honor for their many sacrifices.

[GA_ArmyVet]

149. Simple,they get a visa because they had a job offer

from a company because they were willing to do the work for less money.

Again it is a double edged sword,..I seem to recall everyone here railing do against Repubs when other industries claiming "Illegal Aliens" are stealing our jobs and this board was alive with cries of Free Borders.

You can't have it both ways.

Sometimes as I read through the boards here, it is like listening to someone with multiple personalties which keep changing in the middle of the conversation.

I remember during the Undocumented worker threads it was always a claim about Mexican or other workers only come here to the jobs Americans don't want to do.


But when a documented and legal immigrant comes here to work we complain and call it outsourcing.

So am I to understand that as a progressive liberal minded person, you only support immigration here if it not done legally and they only take low paying jobs?

Because that is how it sounds.

[riverdeep]

185. I know of the dynamic of which you speak.

But a few, like myself, never advocated that. I am against illegal immigration mainly for the very reason you cite, that they will affect the poor the most. They take away jobs from those Americans most desperate for jobs by allowing employers to pay less and less and less. Industries like construction that once were a steady, decent income for the lower and lower middle class, are now stocked with illegals.

As for legal immigration, it's more complicated. As I stated elsewhere, we should focus on making life better for American citizens first and foremost. If there are jobs that aren't being staffed by Americans, especially decent-paying jobs, we need to ask 'why' and what we can do to correct it. For short term or acute needs immigration is fine but not as a long term solution.

In a general sense, I'm for decreasing immigration. This isn't the country it was in the 1800's. This is already a highly developed nation, we don't need teeming masses anymore. I would rather that we as a nation do what we can to make countries around the world such that their citizens don't have a yearning to leave for somewhere else. It's the only long-term solution, we can't possibly absorb the entire world's problems and not be taken down ourselves.

[GA_ArmyVet]

187. Easiest reply I have ever made to anyone. I agree with you EOM

[Hannah Bell]

221. It's not immigrants "taking" jobs that's the objection. It's employers & gov't colluding to hold

down wages & defuse unionization.

Those same actors are colluding on the other end as well.

For example, there's a sudden influx of immigrants from Cape Verde, a tiny island in africa. Why? "Privatization" & "development" initiatives, i.e. multinational corporations marketizing the economy & throwing people off land where they could at produce a living for themselves without having to be too involved in the money economy.

Now they have to pay for housing & food, & the "development" which jacks up land & goods prices doesn't jack up wages an equivalent amount.

Then they tell them the US is the land of opportunity & have them pay for the privilege of becoming the shit-labor force here.

They make money on both ends.

The Philippines consistently spends part of its GDP to produce an over-supply of nurses who'll leave the country. 15% of new nurses in the US are foreign-trained, & the biggest group of those are from the Philippines.

11% of the Philippines economy is funded from overseas remittances, so this is a money-maker - they don't have to produce the equivalent $ value in jobs at home, just run some nursing schools.

Similarly, the US thus doesn't have to increase spending on nursing programs or higher salaries to attract more nurses. Instead, they effectively collude in a program that ultimately moves $ that would otherwise be spent in the US to subsidize the multinational corps, mostly US, that own the Philippines - allowing them to spend less on services there, & tamping down dissent.

Working people get screwed on both sides.

[anonymous171]

232. So true.

The worker is exploited either way.

[Hannah Bell]

151. To keep wages down. That's ALWAYS why, no matter what they say about shortages.

Here's how a labor market is supposed to work: if you can't get help, offer more money, more benefits & perks, tuition assistance, etc. If the supply is low, it means the price is wrong.

http://nursingphd.org/articles/shortage.php.

Qualified applicants to nursing schools are being turned away, which indicates supply is being held down.

[RagAss]

161. Amen ! American Greed trumps Bullshit once again !

[Lyric]

153. From the perspective of a college student, some reasons why U.S. nurses are in shortage.

I talk to my fellow students every single day, and because we have an enormous medical school complex here, the topic of nursing degrees is a common one. I've met hundreds--literally--of students who have dropped out of nursing school to pursue some other kind of medical degree, usually in a sub-specialty like radiology or respiratory therapy. Some of the most common reasons I've heard:

1. The degree is too difficult to obtain, and the classes are too complex to be worth the mediocre payoff. Thirty years ago, a reasonably intelligent person could become a nurse by "learning on the job," so to speak, and working their way up from being an assistant. That is no longer possible. We now require extensive education, and for good reason: today's medical world is FAR more complex, especially inside of a hospital environment. Still, the students who are truly *good* at math and science (both of which are skills required for a nursing degree) are more likely to become specialists, physicians, or even bio and chemical engineers. The most common reasoning I've heard is this: If I have to take so many science and math classes, why bother being a nurse? I might as well just do something else that pays better and is a less-stressful career overall.

2. Nurses are abused by hospitals. This is a sad truth. Because there IS a shortage, the existing nurses are harshly over-worked, under-paid relative to what they have to do, subjected to forced overtime and long shifts, abuse by patients that is all-too-often tolerated by hospital administrations, and generally treated like crap. Also, in many hospitals, the seniority/promotion system flat-out sucks. When potential new nurses see how current nurses are treated, is it VERY discouraging to them.

3. Our for-profit healthcare system has destroyed nursing by permitting specialists and peripheral therapists to charge enormous amounts of money, thus enticing potential nurses away from nursing and into specialist careers. For every Nursing student I've met, there are three or four "specialist" students in assorted programs that will graduate into jobs that pay FAR more than nursing does. The sickening result is that we now have an over-abundance of people who specialize, and an extreme shortage of people who can skillfully do more than one thing. To put it bluntly: if the American medical community was a kitchen, we'd have twenty people slicing vegetables, and nobody stirring the soup.

Getting rid of for-profit healthcare, instituting some broad regulations for how nurses can be treated on-the-job, and making Nursing degrees cheap or free would go a LONG way toward resolving the American nurse shortage.

[GentryDixon]

156. It's not just nurses.

My Nephrologist is of from India. She is very difficult to understand. We spend half of my appointment repeating what she told me the first time.

[Hannah Bell]

163. Thank you. When there's a market shortage, it indicates the price is wrong.

Instead of increasing staffing ratios, wages or benefits, the system is intensifying the workload & offshoring training & personnel to its low-wage colonies.

Same old, same old.

[bliss_eternal]

209. Informative post...

:thumbsup:...thank you!

This post by a former nurse, seems to support what you've shared:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4891646&mesg_id=4904198

...as well as others through out the thread.

I've had lots of nurse friends. I've never known a group of people so prone to disease and ill health, due to poor working conditions, stress, little ability to refuel by eating during shifts, etc. They work to keep us healthy, but frequently to their own detriment.

[kitfalbo]

172. So many....

1. Recently 11,000 Qualified nursing applicants in the US were turned down from nursing programs because there is not enough teachers to teach them.

Ultimately it's the huge pay cut that is restricting schools from getting nurses as teachers, Even an equivalent salary should improve this, but considering the people need twice the education they should probably get paid more for that kind of job.

Yes, they don't pay nurses enough because for just a little bit of extra training those students could be doctors.

[KillCapitalism]

173. There's a shortage due to the nature of nursing programs.

I'd say fewer than 5% of the general public would be able to hack it in a nursing school program. I have a cousin who graduated from a university with a bachelor's in civil engineering. She got tired of working in that field and went to nursing school. According to her, getting her nursing degree was much harder than it was for her to get her engineering degree. I've heard one of her co-workers state that nursing school is an abbreviated version of medical school.

[bliss_eternal]

181. Programs *are* intense in nature.

Very much so. They're challenging to complete at the bacalaureate and associate degree levels. Not only that, but they are frequently difficult to gain acceptance to--depending on how many applicants there are to a program.

Here in CA, whenever there's a "recession" nursing programs tend to become "impacted." Meaning they receive far more appications than they have available spots to accept into the program. Some schools use a lottery system (based on grades earned in prerequisite courses, number of prerequisites completed, in progress, etc.) others use wait lists. It varies.

During difficult economic times, some enter nursing thinking "how hard could it be?" lol.
The people like this tend to get weeded out rather early. ;)

[treestar]

182. At least this job can't be outsourced

Another problem with the shortage is that it is an American gender fetish that men not be nurses. So you only have about 55% of the population to pick from.

One thing I've observed, at least where I am, is that African men don't have a problem with being nurses. At least in general, or of those who want to come to the U.S. Africans and Filipinos are in this field the way the Irish became the cops or the Italians the builders.

[AnneD]

262. If Hospitals could outsource the sick...

they would. This is why some insurance companies are paying for medical vacations-not so emergent cases sent overseas. Laugh if you will but I see this coming.

[Cleita]

186. Perhaps another possibility is that those foreign nurses

got a free education or some kind of aid from their government, unlike here where one has to go into deep debt to learn a profession. I do believe there is a shortage in this country of trained medical personnel because of the difficulty and cost of getting an education with diminishing monetary rewards because of our broken medical system.

[lib2DaBone]

188. This whole friggin country is whacko out of control....

and we owe it all to our "servants" in CONgress.

Obama's ban on PACS and lobbying... the best thing that ever happened.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

217. Absolutely. Now we need a ban on HB1 visas and more nursing schools created nt

[Highway61]

192. Post number one hit the nail on the head

I've been a nurse all my life and I am in a private practice for the past 12 years. I am here to tell you that the money they say nurses make is bull. They can get much cheaper labor from overseas....and they do.

A few years ago in Maine, I contacted a very well known hotel there (cost STARTS at $300 and up per night) and told them I knew some folks who were interested in summer help as chamber maids etc. I was told that they were "all set" as they have a contract with a group from the Dominican Republic that they bring in every summer!

The profits from health care to luxury goes straight to the top. Can't share any of the money ya know. Why should they pay top dollar when they can pay peanuts. It's as simple as that.

[Nikia]

195. Because there are many openings for the number of qualified people

Most American RNs can find jobs in their community, wherever that might be. I suppose there might be some areas without many openings, but probably few RNs would have to move to find a job if they aren't too picky. To be qualified, you need a specific degree with specific training. I was a biology major and would have to go at least 2 years more to get a BSN at a school that does allow credit from previous degrees. In contrast, many other jobs don't require such specific qualifications even if they are in the job ad. I've gotten job interviews where the preferred education is food science, chemistry, or engineering. I would never be considered for a job where the required education was a BSN/RN, nor would anyone without that degree.

[uppityperson]

201. I have quit working as a nurse several times. My story, if you're interested...

I got an ADN, worked a while, then got a BSN. I have worked in many different jobs, including hospital, nursing home, private duty, public health, home health, women's clinic, other clinic, writing patient educational software, bunch of stuff. I got in and out of nursing several times due to obnoxious working hours (long, late, on call, etc) (if you work in a care facility and the next nurse doesn't come to work, calls in sick, etc, you CAN NOT leave until you can find someone to replace you), being treated like dirt by administrations out simply to make money, low pay (again, cutting nurses pay shows the owners you are concerned with watching costs. right), dealing with life/death issues, dealing with infectious agents/body fluids, trying to keep up with changing technologies and meds.

It came down to the fact that I could make more as a janitor, with less stress, and better benefits. So, I became a janitor for quite some time. A couple times. It was nice. No one died, I could leave at the end of my shift, minimal exposure to body fluids (and I could control when I cleaned those lavatories).

Respect. Decent pay. Decent support staffing. These are what are needed.

[bliss_eternal]

208. I'm interested...

...so I read, and saw your story reflected my brief time in healthcare (not nursing--but have nurse friends, family, etc.).
:hi:

It's a shame that dedicated people that sincerely care about patient's rights, are sent running from the field for the very reasons you share. :hug:

[Horse with no Name]

228. I think that when people figure out that nursing isn't the panacea

that they imagine...they change majors or quit their jobs or go to work in non-patient care areas.
Administrators are more demanding, families are more demanding, and the job is more demanding.
Hours are longer...and the benefits at Walmart are usually better than ours.
Just this year--our hospital figured out how to take away our sick leave without really taking it away (some of us had HUNDREDS of hours accrued...now we can't touch it), they are not accruing the sick leave anymore, they aren't matching our 401k, raises are frozen,
there are layoffs, our nurse managers took an involuntary 10% pay cut (that was after their overtime was taken away), and the positions that were open were eliminated via attrition. Our insurance premiums went up significantly as well the copays and they are denying almost ALL elective procedures.
However, our long hours haven't changed--only that there are fewer to take care of MORE patients. With fewer employees come the issues that if you are sick then you are leaving your fellow employees in a bind because there isn't anyone to pick up the slack and forget about scheduling a vacation longer than a few days--there isn't the extra staff to do it.
I am now doing the job of an RN, an aide, unit secretary, respiratory therapist and lab tech--since the majority of THOSE positions were eliminated in the layoff. I haven't had to do X-rays yet--but I can imagine they are trying to figure that out to.
We are having to work with minimal supplies...and when the patients/families want extra pillows and blankets...they blame US because we don't have any. Let me also state that I work for a FOR PROFIT entity.
I figure with all of the cuts I have taken about a 25% pay cut in salary and benefits.
It is a job with more and more demands and less and less satisfaction.
We are NOT staffed so that we can give exceptional care to our patients--we are staffed to where our patients receive adequate care.
There is a big difference in the two and for old nurses like me who want to make a huge difference...the rewards are less and less. It is a bitter pill to swallow.

[uppityperson]

250. That is it in a (big) nutshell.

Personal storied; Closest I came to striking was when they wanted to cut our salarys (nebrasks about 1978) from $4.50/hr to $4.25 (yes, that is four fifty). Worked in a unionized hosp once which admin hated but we liked. Yes, the dues were a pain, but it was worthwhile. Then there was the hosp that gave us standard cups once with "we heart our nurses" printed on them to show their great appreciation. Turns out the CONsulting firm they hired to come up with this made $30,000 or so for the recommendation. We nurses were not amused. Then there was the time I finished my week orientation, was floated to a floor that I'd never been on (hosp) with only 1 aid rather than the usual 2, who hadn't been their either. Calls to supervisor resulted in "do the best you can", visit to admin in morning resulted in "no one died, what's your problem". If 1 thing went wrong, I could, and did, deal with it. Being aware the whole shift that if that second thing went wrong someone would die and it would be my fault. I told them that if that was their attitude, I quit. They told me fine, there were lots of nurses who would be happy to risk their license and emotional and physical health to do the work.

Best hosp I worked in the management let us divide up patients as we felt best (who got which patients, how many, etc) and gave us instant help if we needed it. That was in Juneau, AK, back when there was lots of money there. It was great, having backup and being respected enough to be able to figure out how many of what type patients we could safely deal with.

Best home health was also in AK, with a wonderful supervisor who felt the same way as I did. Do the work, do it well, sometimes it takes more time, sometimes less. Healing and keeping people healthy takes all sorts of routes.

Thinking of the jobs I liked the best, it comes down to respecting nurses for their education, experience and ability to figure out what we could handle, while giving support. Odd, it is that simple.

The responsibilities are HUGE, the appreciation from the upper levels minimal, over worked which then increases the stress more, camaraderie helps but also hurts (as you wrote), it is difficult.

[Maru Kitteh]

211. Our nursing school cannot find enough instructors to educate more than half of those applying into

the program. A shortage of instructors = fewer graduates = nursing shortage.

[uppityperson]

218. Where are you and what would I need to teach?

Have a couple BS's, including BSN. Probably need MSN though?

[trashcanistanista]

220. In the hospital where I work nurses right out of US nursing

school start at around $50/hr. In another hospital where I worked where they exclusively hired overseas nurses, they start at $18/hr. There are not enough slots in schools for everyone who wants a nursing degree to get in. Hospitals favor the cheaper nurses. Foreign nurses usually never complain and don't join unions. It is as simple as that.

[New Dawn]

225. To drive down US nurses' wages.

The wealthy owners of this country's private health care industry only care about profits. Decent paying jobs for US workers just means less mansions and limousines for the super-rich.

[quiller4]

227. There is a real nursing shortage and it is getting worse

Nursing schools cannot hire sufficient faculty to train new nurses. One of the reasons for this is that senior nurses continue to work in the field because they can make more at hospital nursing than they can training new nurses. The nursing instructor shortage is making a bad problem worse because more than twice as many nurses retire each year as graduate from our nursing schools.

The nurses in all my area hospitals are organized and their wages are set in collective bargaining agreements. There is no financial advantage to hiring offshore. The nurses who come from the Philippines to work in Washington earn the same wage as those from this community.

My old college roommate left a job at Franciscan Healthcare as an RN to teach nursing. She took a substantial pay cut to make this career change. She did it because she is raising grandchildren and teaching is a day job. It is hard to be a part of your child or grandchild's school and athletic events if you work night or rotating shifts.

[defendandprotect]

236. Can't say exactly, but . . .

stuff like this has been going on for decades . . .

Engineers, for one. They wanted to crash their salaries so they trained a higher number

of engineers that would actually be needed which put downward pressures on salaries.

They they brought in foreigners who would be willing to work for less.

This has happened in a lot of fields -- computers, another.

But, again, this has been going on for decades.

[Divine Discontent]

249. without even reading the replies - b/c they pay them diddly even though many have crappy instruction

most (not all) of the foreign nurses I've seen have been pretty clueless, and the language barrier can lead to death when they don't follow a dr's exact orders (was done in my siblings case - it was a major screw up)

[inthebrain]

251. Goes to show how much you really know about nursing

They all take the same NCLEX exam.

Secondly, with good assessment skills you really don't need to talk to the patient to figure out what's wrong with them.

Crackels in the lungs on everyone presents the same way.

Iron deficient anemia presents in the same way.

Cancer does as well.

Lab values and how they connect together along with organ systems also.

I've been in nursing for awhile. Most patients I can tell what's up with them right when I walk in the room. The language ain't really an issue. One of the biggest aspects of nursing is not what the patient says but how they say it. Reading body language is the biggest part of the assessment.

[Hannah Bell]

252. Only if you assume that communicating what's going on to patient & family is not important

in nursing treatment. i.e. patients are just bodies or machines, to be tuned up & not communicated with.

I don't think that's really current nursing philosophy, though. rather the opposite.

[inthebrain]

253. Especially when it is you doing the ASSuming

There are many ways to communicate with patients besides using verbal language. This is where you assume that there is nothing "Uniquly difficult" about nursing.

There are pain scales, visual aids, dolls, etc that a nurse has at his/her disposal to communicate with patients and family.

Nurses also have to communicate with people that are deaf and are capable of doing it effectivly.

A simple language barrier is one of the easiest to get around. And even those many claim "can't speak the language" know the language.

You really don't know what you are talking about and have no clue how nursing care works or the tools at the nurse's disposal to get around obstacles.

I am LMFAO as you prove yourself a charlatan speaking from a position of absolute ignorance.

[Hannah Bell]

254. there are a number of things that can be communicated non-verbally.

& a number that can't.

i am sorry that you continue to feel the need to denigrate me, & can't discuss issues without sinking to that level.

[rainbow4321]

255. "everyone presents the same way".

Uh---NOT!
All three of what you listed (crackles, iron deficient anemia and cancer) do NOT "present in the same way" in everyone that has them and if you think that having a conversation with a patient is not needed as part of the nursing assessment..well, you really don't need to be in nursing.
How exactly are you going to address the iron deficiency problem?? You start by going thru their diet history, past and current symptoms/illnesses, take a complete background from them. All that is NOT something you get from walking in a room and looking at someone.

"Crackles"?? Good luck trying to figure THAT out with not talking..do they smoke? Is their urine output decreased? Did they stop their diuretic, asthma, or other similar medicine recently?

I could go on and on punching holes thru your "no conversation needed" theory but I imagine DUers don't need any more examples--even the NON-nursing DUers.

[inthebrain]

258. Crackles are fluid in the lungs

Is there some other sound "crackles" make that I'm not aware of?

There's a number of ways to go through someones diet history if you don't share a common language. Ya know those little cards they have in the hospital with all the pictures of food. Ya know, just move your hand to your mouth in an eating motion and hand them the cards.

See, communication ain't that hard.

Oh, and I'm curious. Infants don't speak a word of english. You don't need to be able to talk to them to figure out that they have Iron Deficiancy Anemia or Fluid in the lungs. Oh, and diet is not diagnostid of Iron Deficiency Anemia. A hematicrit and hemoglobin is.


This is one of the reasons why nurses are required to go through Maternity/Pediatrics. The communication element that you need in all fields is freakin vital. You have to learn how to do assessments on people you can't get info from verbally. You have to learn to speak the language of a two year old, six year old, 13 year old and a 21 year old. They all communictate differently and receive communication differently.

Oh, and there's those people in the ICU that can't tell you squat that you have to do assessments on as well. Good nurses know how to communicate people when there is a language barrier.


I suppose you speak for all of DU!!!!!

[Divine Discontent]

256. some of the most incompetent people I know do great on tests

You speak for nurses as a whole, that's your job as a nurse. I'm speaking as a person in great health watching them take "care" of an ill person - the sheer incompetence with a majority of them is laughable. Most don't deserve 10 bucks an hour let alone 30-40. Between language barriers, working too many hours to make as much as they can, and apathy - I have very little respect for many people in the medical field. In saying that, I have incredible respect for the ones that are amazing, and tell them, and write letters on their behalf - but the crappy ones abound.

[McCamy Taylor]

257. Not enough nurses in the US want to be in practice. An RN can get easier work in

utilization and review, in public health, in teaching and in all kinds of other jobs. Working in ERs, ICUs etc is grueling.