Two 15 year old children to be tried as adults

[Ex Lurker]

on trial for their lives.
http://www.nola.com/news/index.ssf/2009/01/fatal_shooting_case_goes_to_ad.html

[Behind the Aegis]

1. GOOD!

[proud2BlibKansan]

35. 15 year olds aren't adults

They aren't capable of making adult decisions. A human brain is not fully developed until age 25.

So no, 15 year olds should not be tried as adults, regardless of the offense. Most civilized countries understand this. But once again, when it comes to criminal justice, the USA is more like a third world nation than a civilized democracy.

[NeedleCast]

47. I agree that 15 year olds are not adults

but (one of them at least) committed a murder. There's not a more serious offense. This isn't like going joy-riding in a stolen car or lifting a pack of baseball cards.

[proud2BlibKansan]

51. I agree

But they shouldn't be punished under the adult criminal justice system.

[NeedleCast]

56. Is a three year lock up at Juvie a fair punishment?

I don't think so.

I'm all for a juvenile court system apart from the adult court system, but at some point, I guess I think that a crime becomes so serious that it crosses the boundry into being an "adult" situation.

As I don't seen anything in the article suggesting what the DA is seeking in terms of punishment, and as the death penalty is off the table due to the age of the offender(s), I guess I'll just wait and see what the DA is asking for here.

I'm also curious as to whether all of them are being charged with murder. Sounds like there was only one person pulling the trigger here. I'm not sure what the other two should be charged with, but I don't think murder is the correct charge for the other two.

[TahitiNut]

54. I'd say they 'emancipated' themselves with their act.

I tend to subscribe to the 7-14-21 (seven's) ages of reason and ages of responsibility. I tend to subscribe to adult "training wheels" at Bar Mitzvah age ... the second 'seven' or 14 years old. A 15-year-old that cannot inhibit the sociopathic drive to commit homicide does not, imho, deserve or warrant, the societal protections afforded minors.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

73. Eloquently put.

I'm sorry if I just butchered that word, but you are so right.

[Posteritatis]

64. 15 year olds aren't exactly "children" either half the time

Also, are you suggesting that 24-year-olds aren't 'really' adults either? Are they children too?

[LostinVA]

66. But they are capable of knowing right from wrong

[YellowRubberDuckie]

72. You are naive.

Take it from someone who has spent a lot of time with juvenile criminals. Brain development, true, isn't completed until the 20s, but that doesn't mean that a kid should be treated as a kid when they choose to murder someone. They freaking knew what they were doing when they started that mess, and now they need to lie in the bed the made. If you let them get a way with it at 15, they are going to think they are invincible, and they are going to do even worse shit when they are 25.
Duckie

[chrisa]

42. It's to prevent them from

Getting out in less than 3 years for murdering somebody in cold blood.

I find it hard to believe they would be rehabilitated by then. They would just get out and kill somebody else.

[Winterblues]

43. Killing these children will make it all better I guess....

:shrug: I am adamantly opposed to any Death Penalty, even for children...

[NeedleCast]

45. What part of the article suggests the DA is going for the death penalty?

[Winterblues]

48. The OP says "on trial for their lives"

:shrug:

[NeedleCast]

50. The OP may have meant life in prison

However, I believe even if they are tried as adults the death penalty is not an option, nor does the article indicate that the prosecutors are asking for the death penalty.

[11 Bravo]

49. They are specifically exempted from the death penalty by virtue of their ages.

[Behind the Aegis]

61. Read the article, not the editorialized OP.

[flvegan]

2. Good.

As it should be. I hope that counsel for the defendants is up to the task and they both get a fair trial.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

3. Seems appropriate to me, based on the limited information in the article.

[Hippo_Tron]

4. I don't think juveniles should be tried as adults, because they don't have adult rights

That said, the juvenile system should have a means by which to sentence people to life without parole if need be.

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. They don't have adult brains

and are incapable of thinking like an adult. Hence, they don't have adult rights and also should not be subject to adult criminal justice.

[OVERPAID01]

82. You are brilliant, possible permanent solution

I think the juvenile system, should have substanitally more leway in sentencing for felonies commited by minors over the age of 14. Poor impulse control is never a warranted excuse for murder. If you are 14 years or older you certainly know that you are doing wrong, there can be no doubt. Broader sentencing guidelines will protect the child's names and permit the juvenile courts to transfer the case for a "adult review" when the child is too old for the system.

[napoleon_in_rags]

5. Bad, I say.

If 15 year olds get guns stupid shit is going to happen. Some responsibility needs to be placed with whoever made that possible.

[Journeyman]

6. The woman who raised me was dragged from her car. . .

at an intersection in a Los Angeles suburb, thrown to the ground and shot twice through her left eye. They say the killer and his partner got some change and half a pack of smokes. The older criminal was 16, the triggerman 14. Both were put in juvenile detention, sentenced there until they were 25, but released when they were 18.

That was 35 years ago last August 9th. I think of Lucille almost every day. I suspect her killers are dead -- I hope they're dead, and I hope they died as they lived. To this day, I believe if anyone picks up a weapon and uses it in unprovoked anger they forfeit the right to all claims of childhood innocence.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

59. Does that include the 8 year old in AZ who shot his father?

Or the 4 year old in another recent news report?

[sandnsea]

7. 15 year olds can't get the death penalty

according to the article.

But life behind bars is way too much. The death penalty was reinstated for particularly heinous crimes, like chopping off little Adam Walsh's head. This crime was tragic, but justice would be better served if these young people lived the rest of their lives giving back instead of rotting.

[norepubsin08]

8. Good for you!!!

I appreciated what you have said..I have long disagreed with the death penalty and with life with out parole...sure for a seriously heinous crime, the person say 300 years...if they show improvement enough to get out, then release them and keep them on probation for the rest of their with the stipulation that they have to x number of hours of community service per year until they are physically no longer able to do so!

[Libertyfirst]

39. And what makes you think they would ever give anything back? Most

of them will be back at the same old stuff as soon as possible.

[sandnsea]

60. That's really not true

Most people who have killed, never kill again.

They're 15. If they are put in the right kind of rehabilitative facility for 10 years, they can most certainly spend their lives giving back. Even if they are never given freedom again, it still makes absolutely no sense to put them in a prison to rot. It's one of the dumbest things this country does.

There's a reason the bible says "vengeance is mine". Vengeance turns humans into awful awful creatures.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

76. This isn't about vengence.

This is about punishment for things that people do. The bible you reference also says to follow the laws of man, and it also says that Murder is prohibited.
People go to prison to keep society safe. You know what else turns people into awful creatures? Murderers roaming free and killing people all willy nilly.
Duckie

[sandnsea]

84. definition of vengeance

"infliction of injury, harm, humiliation, or the like, on a person by another who has been harmed"

In other words, punishment.

It isn't necessary.

Nobody said to let murderers roam free, killing all willy nilly. Except you. Are you having a debate with yourself?

[Behind the Aegis]

85. Absurd!

Punishment isn't necessary?! Are you freaking kidding? For your perusal:

Justice: the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments

Perhaps these murders deserve "rewards" for their cowardly and heinous crime. :eyes:

[sandnsea]

86. No. Punishment is not necessary

to remove individuals from society. Not necessary. Not useful.

Punishment without guidance is the worst form of correction. Guidance without punishment usually works just fine.

[Behind the Aegis]

88. So, a nice "time-out."

:eyes:

To most, removing individuals from society is punishment. Your response is nauseating. I can't decide which is worse, the "hang'em high" crowd or this tripe. Yes, we have a broken system, but until then, murders don't get a walk or hand-holding.

[sandnsea]

92. Some need removing permanently

As do some rapists and some child molestors. As soon as we move past the idea we have to treat criminals like vermin, we'll be able to get to a place where we permanently remove those who are sick beyond rehabilitation. Look at Norway. Their method works much better than ours.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

90. No...

But they basically said that these kids shouldn't be held responsible and that they should just be let off the hook. I think this is the most ridiculous argument I've ever had on DU, and that is saying something.
Duckie

[Nevernose]

9. Problem: 15 yos AREN'T adults

That's why there's a separate system for juveniles.

A 15 year old's brain hasn't even developed fully -- it functions "in the now" and is largely incapable of understanding the long view. A simple CAT scan will confirm that.

What should be done with these little bastards I don't know, but treating them as if they were adults is wrong. Revenge is not justice.

[LisaL]

10. Problem.

Juveniles if convicted would likely be released at 18. They are 15 now. What kind of justice is that?

[Behind the Aegis]

11. And Justice is not revenge.

[tkmorris]

13. What most people call "justice", isn't.

It's vengeance dressed up as justice. Given the emotion which comes through in your posts on this thread, and others, I suspect vengeance is what you seek.

[Behind the Aegis]

14. And given you don't know me, don't suppose to know my positions.

Let me guess, you think a fair trial, with representation, is "vengeance." Right? Heaven forfend people actually be held responsible for their actions.

[depakid]

71. You absolute and unfettered support of Isael's action in Gaza

probably tell everyone all that they need to know about your position on this sort of issue.

[Behind the Aegis]

74. Well, when you make shit up like that...

...probably because of poor reading comprehension skills on your part, it is no wonder posters like you are so easily confused.

[depakid]

79. It's pretty much the same abstract set of issues-

proportionality and reasonable responses to violence.

[Behind the Aegis]

80. Spin it any way you want.

You still got it wrong. No surprise.

[Jack_DeLeon]

21. So what?

They have taken a innocent life? Why should we care that their brains arent fully developed? Why should resources be wasted on such individuals as these? Why should we seek to rehabilitate them?

There are plenty of other people, children and adults, who have been dealt a crappy hand in life but havent taken it out by murdering others. Why should resources be wasted on murders.

[Behind the Aegis]

25. I will tell you why.

Though I think the responses here bitching about them being "minors" with "undeveloped brains" is BULLSHIT, we, as a society, should be about justice and redemption. There are some who will become responsible citizens with the correct care. The responsibility lies in creating a justice system which is focused on education and rehabilitation. There will ALWAYS be exceptions to the rule. In this case, they should be tried as adults and, if found guilty, sentenced to an appropriate (subjective) term.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

77. Damn. I couldn't have said it better myself.

[dionysus]

30. exactly. 15 years old is old enough to know not to kill a fellow human with a pistol

in a fucking hold-up...

:eyes:

[Nevernose]

93. So you support executing the mentally retarded?

So you support executing the mentally retarded?

Why should we care that their brains arent fully developed? Why should resources be wasted on such individuals as these?

We "waste resources on them" because the criminals in question are every bit as human as their victims, and at 15 years old who they are is not yet set in stone.

[EFerrari]

12. Stupid. Their brains haven't even finished forming yet.

[Cid_B]

15. Ill bet their brains are formed enough...

... to know that it is BAD to rob and shoot people.

[SoCalDem]

16. If 15 year olds procreate and commit crimes, their chronological age is less important

legally..

You can become an "emancipated minor" at 15, even though you cannot easily support yourself, but legally it's possible.. so if you commit a crime that carries an adult penalty, so be it...

15 years olds these days are not the naive, innocent kids they may have been a few decades ago..

The "soft cocoon" of childhood is going away.. Children are raising themselves these days, with all the single parent/no parent "families" we have, and we all know the schools are not succeeding with many of them.

But they still need & want money, so criminality is often their only "choice".

[Behind the Aegis]

17. Interesting response.

I agree with some of what you said.

"But they still need & want money, so criminality is often their only "choice"."

Have you ever been to New Orleans?

[SoCalDem]

20. No.. I always wanted to go, but never made it yet n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

23. You should come.

We have a beautiful city. It is not just Bourbon Street, despite my being a bartender in one of the many bars on that street. Our city is wonderful in so many ways and those who have never been don't understand us, our ways, our culture, or our fortitude. I am a transplant. I have lived all over the US. This, New Orleans, is my HOME!

As for the little thug murderers, one was picked up tap-dancing on Decatur Street a few days later. So, criminal behavior is NOT the only way to survive in our city...unless you are in City Hall!

[SoCalDem]

24. My husband has been there on business a few times, and always brought me back stuff from there

My favorite-of-all-times gold hoop earrings he brought me in 1972 were stolen ..maybe I should go there and get me a replacement:)

[Behind the Aegis]

26. Send me a picture. I will find them. I will send them to you.

We have everything here! I dare say there is not another city in the US that is even remotely like ours. But, should you decide to come here, you let me know. I will make sure your "dance card" is filled the entire time, so much so, you can come for a month, and you will still have to come back for the stuff you missed!

In case anyone thiks this is callous to "sell" NOLA like this, didn't know Wendy.

[NeedleCast]

58. New Orleans is awesome

I've been there many times on business and for pleasure, before and after Katrina. Its horrible seeing what's happened there, as it's always been one of my favorite places. I have some good friends that live in the quarter in a loft (I think at Decaturn and Esplanade) and have always been terribly jealous of their pad.

Can I ask what bar you work at? It's not terribly unlikely we've met and never knew it.

[Behind the Aegis]

65. If you have been to the bars on the corner of Bourbon and Ste. Ann, we've...

...probably bumped into one another (assuming you like gay bars. :))

[NeedleCast]

53. Just FYI

death penalty is not an option for juveniles, even if they are tried as adults.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

78. So, it's ok as long as they're poor and they're robbing someone less poor than them?

Do you hear yourself?

[SoCalDem]

83. Of course it's not "ok" for them.. It's just a choice they see as their only one.

Millions of people make bad choices, that are not "ok with me"..

Just a symptom of a sick society that throws kids away around puberty, and expects them to end up ok, all on their own..

Criminals are creatures of opportunity. They will rob anyone they find..like themselves or not. Money is money to a criminal. Criminals steal from their own families before they "branch out"..

It's a terrible thing they did, and they deserve to pay the price for the adult crime they committed. They were not "born bad", but they sure ended up that way.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

91. Thank you for the clarification.

I think I may agree with most of that.
Duckie

[Jack_DeLeon]

18. Good, its unfortunate however that the death penalty can't be on the table...

Age aint nothing but a number...

[Behind the Aegis]

27. The death penalty should never been on the table.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

33. Oh, that little fact annoys you? The recent SCOTUS decision?

Good.

[Raskolnik]

55. "Age aint nothing but a number..." = demonstrably silly. n/t

[depakid]

81. Another Texan for the execution of juveniles!

And people wonder why there's "South bashing" on DU (and elsewhere throughout society- and around the world).

Fortunately, the Supreme Court has put an end to that issue- though not before southern states and especially Texas got their pounds of flesh (along with other notworthy countries like China, Iran, Saudi, Arabia and Yemen:

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/execution-juveniles-us-and-other-countries

[cat1985]

19. Are there any rules

I dont really know the detais here but see how aweful the crime was.

I am wondering what circumstances there are for people of this age to be trialled as adults.

[Jack_DeLeon]

22. yes, a judge decides

n/t

[blondeatlast]

28. Tragedy heaped upon tragedy. Is anything gained by this? nt

[slackmaster]

29. There is no tragedy in removing two dangerous, failed individuals from the population

Maybe they can make something good of themselves in prison. Their chances of surviving to adulthood are probably better there than they would be outside.

[dionysus]

31. a few murdering dipshits off the street?

:shrug:

[woo me with science]

32. I dislike the use of the word, "children," in a post title like this.

They aren't adults, but they aren't children, either. The OP should say "teens." It is hard enough to discuss these things rationally in the absence of rhetoric that is emotionally loaded and disingenuous.

[Ex Lurker]

40. Point taken

I tried to change the title but it said the editing period has expired.

[mitchum]

34. Well, if toting a gun "makes you a man", being tried as an adult...

should just be the cherry on top of the sundae.
Be careful what you wish for

[FLAprogressive]

37. Good!

They need to be locked up for a loooong time.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

63. Why do you love criminals so much?

If you really are a law-abiding citizen, you must wail and gnash your teeth that the SCOTUS banned the death penalty for people under 18!

[aikoaiko]

38. Given the choices of the system, this is the better choice.

I understand giving teens chances to correct themselves and be better adults, but some teens do heinous enough acts that one can't take the risk of releasing a deviant after a few short years.

Its true what some people say that teens are behaviorally more impulsive and that impulsivity is correlated with neuroanotomical development, but that is not the same as saing they "aren't capable of making adult decisions", "they are incapable of thinking like adults", or that their brains only "function in the now" as some people would have you think.

[WI_DEM]

41. Oh, those poor "children"

Hope they get lots of years in prison.

[ismnotwasm]

44. Lovely

That always works. Stops other 15 year olds from committing violent crimes. Carries the right message to the violently inclined. Helps our our prison system as well, right out of juvie into adult prison. Very effective crime deterrent and give adult offenders a couple of kids to work with. The families get their loved ones back, and justice is served. With fava beans and a nice Chardonnay

Yes, I'm being sarcastic.

I know young women in prison right now for a triple felony committed at 15. She grew up with my daughter, who is now a corrections officer. Both girls had young mothers and grew up around drugs and poverty. Yes, that would have been me. Not the mother of the year when I was young.


BTW, you know the difference between armed robbery and first degree murder? A split second

It stopped short of murder, but not for lack of trying. Because she was violent and a damaged kid without great thinking abilities. she used the Alfred plea and got 20 years. She's now lost in the prison system, no longer violent IN the system, but has a number of other unaddressed and ignored problems. No rehabilitation for her, she'll come out soon and be lost in the sub-culture of gangs, drugs and violence. Sure to re-offend. Trying her as an adult won't save anybody else, and has possibly created a sociopath.

Trying kids as adults may satisfy the need for revenge, but it does nothing for justice or crime prevention. Violent Kids don't have the brain development and aren't going to connect action with consequences in these situations.

Should they get off at 18? No. There are other ways of addressing the whole issue far more productive.

Prevention is always better of course. Getting into communities and identifying kids at risk, showing them options, having healthy adults available to them. Mentors. Social programs. Goals and dreams obtainable and realistic.

[blondeatlast]

52. I think we are in the minority here--but agreed. This is another tragedy upon a tragedy.

It makes me weep...

[mrreowwr_kittty]

57. Like you say, it satisfies a need for vengeance

And let's face it, there's generally a hearty dose of racism involved too. The kids who the public clamors to have tried as adults are usually "those people".

[nini]

46. We need some kind of 'in-between' handling of these things

These guys certainly are not 'kid's but they're sure not adults either.

We need special consideration given to how their penalties are laid out - with the possibility that as they grow up they change their ways. If they don't - they stay locked up.

[Bill McBlueState]

62. EIther there should be a juvenile justice system or there shouldn't be

Making exceptions for particular crimes just because they're extra-offensive defeats the whole purpose of the juvenile justice system.

[Jack_DeLeon]

67. I disagree...

[TheKentuckian]

68. What is that a 15 year old can do that is good that allows then the privileges of adulthood?

Bueller, Bueller, Bueller, Frye?

The opposite applies. I don't even see how this hypocritical standard even is allowed to be thought about.

[depakid]

69. Yet another reason for so many to be proud to be Americans

and another reason for sensible people around the world to remember that not all that much has changed about this country since Januart 20th, despite outward appearances-

George W, Bush- Republicans- torture, the obsession with punishment, a draconian criminal justice system - all of these were and are products and reflections of the American people.

They weren't aberrations.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

70. 2 15 year old kids made the decision to commit a very adult crime.

They need to be tried as adults. I've worked in the Juvenile Justice System. Those kids have no remorse, and they rationalize the most evil, ridiculous shit. Those 2 really need to be tried as adults. Once a kid hits 15, they are who they are. While they can change, it is rare, and they will probably do better in prison that they would on the outside.
Duckie

[littlebit]

75. Good

lock their sorry little asses up. They should spend the rest of their lives in prison.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

87. But not to be allowed to vote for another three years?

This strikes me as incongruous.

[olegramps]

89. What I find surprising about this is that their mother's turned them in to authorities.

I found it rather strange that their mothers quickly recognized them from a police stretch and called the authorities. Maybe they have been running wild for years and were totally out of control.

They have to be damn brazen to be so bold and to rob someone at gun point on the street. I don't know if I buy the crap about them being just 15 and their brains undeveloped. If this is so just why are so many other kids lawful and orderly instead of running around like wild animals robbing people?

Maybe they are mentally defective or perhaps you can blame it on the culture in which they have been raised. We are talking about basic behavior that any kid of seven years should be aware of not some complex esoteric aspect of brain development. People are trying to tell me that a kid of seven or even younger doesn't comprehend that you don't stab your sister in the eye with a fork for playing with your toy soldiers because their brain isn't fully developed. It reminds of "West Side Story" where the kid is telling the cop that he isn't the blame it's because of his family and environment that he's bad.

It is hard for me to believe that a 15 year old doesn't know that if you rob people at gun point that it a serious crime and the punishment would be severe if they are apprehended. They need to be tried as adults so that they can be held in prison for a long enough period that they can demonstrate that they have earned the right to rejoin society and can be responsible citizens before they are ever released.