Americans are a bunch of crybabies when it comes to taxes.

[irislake]

The United States has broken the bank by spending and not taxing enough.

Americans---prefer to run up huge deficits by borrowing from foreigners rather than living within their means by collecting enough taxes to cover their governments' expenditures.

Any attempts to raise taxes are greeted with derision by voters who have no idea how low their taxes are compared with the rest of the world.

Like others living outside the U.S., I'm very unsympathetic to this whining and deficit-riddled form of governance. It's ruinous for the rest of the world and has been a contributing factor to the economic mess we're all in nowadays.

As a Canadian resident, I'm used to higher taxes....I realize that if the money is wisely spent it results in social and economic benefits alike.

...the U.S could easily pay for its bailout to date and balance the budget on an ongoing basis if Americans paid the same taxes (not income taxes) as Canadians do.

The rest is at <http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/francis/archive/2009/01/23/americans-are-crybabies.aspx>

Well maybe not "crybabies" so much as brainwashes by the extreme right corporate nuts.

[Hugabear]

1. But it's MY MONEY! MY MONEY!

[Naturyl]

41. Yes, that is the fundamental cultural error

Americans believe taxes are "their money" when in fact taxation is the cost of living in a civilized society. It is not "their money," it is the legitimate property of the commonwealth.

[NOW tense]

2. This is what the cries sound like to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogvYk7zC7-k

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

3. I'd Rather Be An American Any Day; No Offense.

[Oregone]

19. To each their own.

Id rather drink poison and move to Haiti.

[Mudoria]

29. Same here...

:patriot:

[fudge stripe cookays]

70. Doesn't surprise me at all. n/t

[eShirl]

4. but taxes = Marxism!

[Believing Is Art]

5. Apples and oranges, though I agree with sentiment

The Canadian government provides more to its citizens than the US government. Obviously this is reflected in our lower taxes, but unless we get things like universal health care, the term "crybaby" is a little unfair. Also, many Americans simply cannot afford higher taxes right now. And those that can are not crybabies, they're crooks.

[leftyclimber]

6. This is from the National Socialist Post??????

:wow:

[irislake]

11. Yup

right wing creation of Conrad Black who is now languishing in an American prison in Florida. (boo hoo)

[leftyclimber]

13. Black's going to prison was a happy day.

(I lived in Ontario for seven years, was living there when the Post first came out. What a wingnut rag. :puke: )

Back to the topic at hand, though, I think part of the difference between the Canadian and American attitudes toward taxes is that the Canadian people can see what they're getting from paying those taxes every darned day. Here in the States, not so much. Roads aren't as well maintained, schools are ill-funded and poorly maintained, social services are extraordinarily difficult to access, and I don't even need to begin to talk about health care. Hell, it's even easier to vote in Canada.

Other than that jackass Mike Harris, most of the PC guys I was exposed to (I moved back to the States about the time that the PCs and the Reformers were talking about a merger) thought that health care was a critical public good that should not be taken away due to the myriad social problems private health care causes. The US is a different planet, in large part due to the propaganda people are force-fed on a daily basis.

[napi21]

7. I agree with you! As an example, I watched a program on PBS

some time ago about "Why the people in Denmark are the happiest people in the world". Yes they do a little griping about their taxes too, but not NEARLY as much as we in the US do. Most if not all the issues that worry us simply do not exist there.


I really do believe it's brainwashing!

[notadmblnd]

8. if people don't work, people don't pay income taxes

for the last 10-15 years the US has been losing jobs to other competitors globally. Not only does the US government lose it's tax base. All the cash being spent on outsourcing leaves the country too. Since Americans have a mostly consumer economy and we are now making next to nothing in the way of goods, money is not coming back into this country. The few greedy bastards who dreamed up this scheme have filled their pockets though and I guess that's whats important,no?

[irislake]

10. Sales taxes not income tax!

[notadmblnd]

14. food is not taxed in this country

there are taxes on other goods. However, when you have no job to pay for those other goods, they don't get bought. Consumers in this country have for the most part, put the brakes on spending. This results in another decline in tax revenue. By far, the income tax is what supports the US government. So now that that there are not enough people working and spending to support the government (because we all know corporations pay almost no tax), what is the country to do?

[leftyclimber]

17. Not in every state, but it is taxed in some.

Here in West Virginia we pay 5% sales tax on groceries (unprepared food; it's 6% on prepared food). There are a couple of other states that do this as well.

When I lived in Canada, IIRC I paid GST (federal sales tax) and PST (provincial sales tax) on non-grocery items but neither on the food itself. This may have changed in recent years; I've been back in the states for a few years now.

[wartrace]

24. Everything in Tennessee is taxed including food.

Luckily they haven't figured out a way to tax my garden or chickens!

[notadmblnd]

26. Must just be my state. I thought it was Federal policy. It should be.

:shrug:

[wartrace]

27. There are other states that do not tax food.

Unfortunately there are others that do. I am surprised they haven't figured out how to tax the use of commodes. That way they could tax you on "both ends".

[hfojvt]

32. it's about 30 states that don't

Kansas taxes food, but then gives a sales tax rebate to some (those with children and those over age 55) lower income people on their income taxes. Neighboring Missouri taxes food (and soda pop, etc.) at 3.5% and other goods at 6% depending on local sales taxes.

[4 t 4]

35. food is taxed in Illinois

[ProgressiveProfessor]

21. Which are regressive

[JVS]

61. Sales tax is regressive as hell.

[hughee99]

9. I think many Americans wouldn't be "crybabies" about their taxes

If they felt like they were getting value for the taxes they do pay. Billions for corporate welfare, wars, and bailing out companies because they fucked themselves with their own greed, but no national health care and a under supported educational system (to name just a few issues).

In the end, the money is earned by the individual, and the government takes it for the general good, but when they don't spend it on the general good, people don't want to give them any more than they have to. I don't blame them.

[cynatnite]

15. Exactly...

If my taxes were going to pay for universal health care, better education and all that...I certainly wouldn't bitch. Instead we're paying for wars and bailing out the wealthy assholes.

[dbonds]

12. Don't lump all Americans with the Republicans

[Oregone]

22. I know plenty of Democrats who whine about taxes and don't really get it.

[Johonny]

16. In all fairness to "Americans"

Since Ronald Reagan the payroll and sales taxes have continued to increase on the poor and middle class. While the income taxes have only modestly decreased. The rich on the other hand have gotten incredible tax breaks. The net result is placing the tax burden on the poor and middle class. It's no wonder most Americans have become very careful when it comes to adjusting tax policies.

Is also true the anti-tax wonks have run over the legislative level. These highly organize entities have managed to talk for the "people" even though they are run by very very few very rich Americans. Here in California they've made basic good budget practices impossible.

[bunnies]

18. Screw that sales tax bullshit.

What the hell am I going to get out of it? More wars? More money going to someone elses wars? More tax cuts for the rich? Please.

Live free or die, baby! You wanna tax me? You better show me how myself and other people like me are going to benefit.

We dont have sales tax in my state and our Governor just told Obama that we dont need to count on the fed govt. for money. Our budget will be balanced next year. Oh, and state income tax? We dont have that either.

Screw that.

[Iggo]

20. You could have left off "...when it comes to taxes."

:patriot:

[Xenotime]

23. I propose a new way of receiving a paycheck..

All paychecks come from the government and not the company you work for. That way the government will have access to more funds than just what is "taxed" or not taxed.

[Zomby Woof]

25. Canadians are crybabies when it comes to everything else

Canadians make up less than 15% of the clientele of a company I worked for, yet generated more than 50% of the complaint letters and phone calls. They wrote the most nitpicky, whiny, overwrought, entitled, spoiled-child letters I have ever read. Why is that? I never realized what whiny fucks Canadians were until I had that job. It was a running joke at work - "Oh fuck! Another Canadian!" I felt sorry for the poor bastards who had to take phone calls from them. Apparently, they were just as obnoxious and overbearing on there, too.

Hey, I figured if you were going to share your generalizations about Americans and taxes, I could share mine about Canadians and customer service.

This panel from South Park sums it up PERFECTLY:



"WORLD UNFAIR!" Yeah, life is like that, Canada.

[irislake]

34. Sorry to hear there are so many awful Canadians in your life.

Americans in Canada are some of the nicest people you could find anywhere.

It makes sense that we would have a percentage of "ugly" Canadians. After all you have your Rush Limbaughs, Ann Coulters, and Sarah Palins. Every country has citizens to blush for. Sorry to hear you think most Canadians are whiny.

Canadians I know feel lucky to have a good safety net and decent health care and don't gripe.

Please note I did not call American's whiny. The woman who wrote the article is a dual citizen and elsewhere noted she doesn't think Americans and Canadians are very different having lived in both countries. I do think you have been brain-washed to be phoebic about taxes. But since so much of your budget goes on weapons and war I wouldn't want to pay taxes there either.

As far as our differences are concerned I think Americans are definitely more religious and patriotic but so what?

[Fire1]

46. If Canadians have such decent health care, why do they

cross the border to have surgery, prescriptions filled (physician care, also) and diagnostic tests?

[PeaceNikki]

47. From which RW blog are you getting that information?

[Fire1]

49. Are you Canadian?

[PeaceNikki]

50. Are you for real?

:shrug:

[Fire1]

51. Yep and waiting for an answer from a Canadian.

[PeaceNikki]

53. Where the fuck are you getting your information?

Did you know that 87.5% of all data posted on the internet is pulled right out of the poster's ass?

I can't cite a source for that, but it's true.

[CanuckAmok]

73. The system is heavily burdened, that's why.

To make one distinction that is often overlooked: there is no "Canadian health care system". Each province has its own system, and each one is slightly different. There is a national/federal standard of what minimum care should be, and each province must meet that standart, but beyond that each system is designed by each province's ministry of health. In some provinces, all non-dental, non-prescription services are free. In other provinces, there is a small monthly stipend one pays, dependent on his income. If you live anywhere in the country and are on social assistance, you generally get additional coverage, such as emergency dental and some prescriptions (including but not limited to meds prescribed for mental health issues). I live in BC and pay $17 a month for my eligibility to use the system (actually my employer pays it, but that's beside the point). I pay $17/mo if I don't see a doctor. I pay $17/mo if I have open heart surgery twice a year. It doesn't matter. In some provinces, there are additional costs based on usage. Example: when my mom had a heart incident at home, two (provincially-owned) ambulances attended (a regular one and an advanced life-support unit). That's two state of the art mobile medical units, and four paramedics (one was a doctor, actually), attending for an hour and taking her to a hospital. A few months later, she received a bill for that service: $56.00 (for "first-responder attendance"). I should add that she was incensed about that, until she spoke with her cousin in Arizona who got a bill for over $1000 for an ambulance call.

To dispel some myths being distributed by the conservatives and by private insurers, here are some facts:

1) Each province has its own system, with the common underpinning that no Canadian is to be denied care, regardless of income.

2) No Canadian is "assigned" a specific doctor. You pick and choose your GP freely, based on your own preference.

3) You may not go directly to a specialist - in order to lessen the burden on the system, you see a GP (ideally your own family doctor who knows your medical history) and he will refer you to an appropriate specialist (cardiologist, urologist, whatever).

4) Depending on the province you're in, things like chiropractic and massage therapy are covered as part of the provincial plan.

5) All provinces have reciprocal agreements which ensure a Canadian visiting one province will still be covered by his own system, should he need care. The agreement between Quebec and the rest of the provinces is slightly different; Quebec requires payment from any Canadian visiting the province and requiring non-emergency health care, but each province will reimburse its citizens 100% of these costs when receipts are submitted. Emergency treatment in Quebec is the same as anywhere else; if you need it, you'll get it, no questions asked.

6) Some provinces permit private care facilities as well as the public ones. The scope of these facilities varies widely - from simple emergency/after-hours clinics to surgical facilities, depending on the province. In some cases these private facilities honour the provincial plans, and in others, they only treat if you can provide payment up-front. My union (Teamsters) has a health care plan which ensures I can go to any facility in Canada, private or public, and get treated without opening my wallet.

7) generally, this is what is EXCLUDED from the public plans: dental and orthodontic care, cosmetic surgery, orthotics, holistic/natural/nontraditional treatment, over the counter and prescription medication, eye exams and glasses/contact lenses. Children and seniors receive free eye exams, free immunizations (as required), and free flu shots. And, as stated, some of these services are provided at no cost to those with special needs (such as people on social assistance).

Interesting aside: the oaths taken here by doctors include a statement that they will not deny anyone treatment for any reason. Example: Even though dental isn't covered by any provincial plans here, if you go to a dentist's office complaining of acute pain, for example, the dentist is bound by his membership in the College of Physicians and Surgeons to treat you, whether or not you have the ability to pay him. In a direct contrast to the US system, the doctor can be sued for NOT treating you for free.

Now, to answer your question.


Make no mistake, if you need immediate, critical care in Canada, you're going to get it.

Make no mistake, if you need emergency surgery in Canada, you're going to get it.

Make no mistake, if you go to an ER anywhere in the country, you will get treatment immediately, based on the assessment of the triage team, and you will get it whether you are on a provincial plan or not. They save your life before asking fore your MasterCard number here, not vice-versa.

Elective surgery can, in some instances, be slow, depending on the procedure. Some people will opt to go to the US for that treatment. Despite the disinformation being spread in the press and by private insurers, any Canadian can go anywhere he pleases for medical care.

Note that some provinces and some private insurers will pay all or part of the expenses involved in going to the US (or elsewhere) for certain procedures.

As far as anyone going to the US to get prescriptions filled, I think you're misinformed. I don't know anyone who has done that (I'm not even sure it's legal for a US pharmacist to fill a Canadian prescription). I had one frond with termal cancer who would go to the US for six months every year. She had to stock up on her meds and bring them with her (small suitcase!) because she wasn't able to get the prescriptions filled in the US. In any event, you will find that the odds of finding a medication that's cheaper in the US than in Canada, slim to none. The exception being if a patent expired in the US first, allowing a generic substitute to be available there but not here.


If you would like to find fault with the "Canadian health care system" do some research to get your facts straight, and please feel free to bring it up - I am an enthusiastic defender of the system and will be happy to set you straight.

[KamaAina]

48. I thought we were the ones crossing the border to get prescriptions filled up there.

Mostly with drugs manufactured right here in the good old U.S. of A., which are cheaper in the Great White North because they don't allow prescription drug advertising, on which Big Pharma spends $million$ here in the Lower 48.

edit: spelling

[Monk06]

54. Let me guess ..... your SILs girlfriend who married a Canadian thirty years ago and lives

in Buffalo said a friend of hers had to cross the
border to get surgery because she was on a three
year waiting list for cancer treatment.

Everyone of the cross border Canadian medical tourist
stories I've read are third hand, unverified and unverifiable
accounts by disgruntled right wing Canadians who
emigrated to the US twenty or thirty years ago.

In other words Republican Expat Canuck Whiners or
spouses of Republican Expat Canuck Whiners

Stop reading the Canadian Free Press. Judy Mc Leod is
an extreme Tory right wing nut job.

[Fire1]

63. That's not an answer but you're close, which tells me you are

well aware that you do not have access to the treatments and technologies available in the U.S. and your government doesn't want to cover those treatments, even when you find them in other countries (U.S.). That's why your single pay gov't insurance is so cheap and ours costs so much more. Our system needs modification for some but, 'you get what you pay for.' Btw, this is not 'third party.'
I live in one of those border states and actually talk to patients that come for treatment. Thirty years ago, I was still in college, so you must be talking about your mother.

[Monk06]

65. You're still trading in generalities and apocrypha. What treatments are not covered here?

Name a single case that has been reported naming
a real patient in a particular province with details
concerning the treatment denied.

And make it a real citation, not more hearsay.

As far as first hand information goes the only
case I know of someone who went south for treatment
was a news editor who had a non emergency heart ailment.

He didn't want to wait six months for a bypass but was
otherwise in no danger except that he refused his doctors
advice to reduce his work schedule.

BTW I was in University too. I was speaking parenthetically
about people in the US who claim to have first hand
information regarding Canadian health care.

[Fire1]

67. You will find one of many such cases right on this thread. Furthermore,

you just confirmed another reason Canadians come here for health care. A waiting list. The information WE have about your health care, or the lack thereof, comes from the patients and their 'provider.' Further research can be found in the journal of the AMA.

[Monk06]

68. The AMA is on record as being against Government funded health care.

Also the patients YOU are seeing are wealthy and
middle class Canadians who can afford private care
and don't like waiting lists. How many of the patients
that YOU are seeing treated in the US are unemployed or on
welfare. Answer none.

Up here health care is a right. It's against the law
for a doctor or hospital to refuse to treat you because
you are indigent or lack a medical card.

Government funded single payer also has the universal support
of business people in Canada because they are not burdened by
health care and insurance costs.

As far as waiting lists go, emergency patients get
immediate care up here they don't wait.

The longest I waited for was one week each for a
Cat Scan and a non emergency hernia operation.

Some areas the waits are longer because of shortage
of hospital beds due to decreased health care spending
over the last ten years by both conservative and liberal
governments.

BTW what is wrong with waiting for non emergency care if
it keeps costs down and everyone has access to affordable health
care?

It's all well and good that Americans have the highest quality care
in the world (The Germans and French would dispute that) but what
does that matter when 20 million Americans are uninsured and lack
access to basic health services. You have almost as many citizens
who are uninsured as the total population of Canada and we have
one tenth of the US GNP.

Health care in Canada is not the best in the world and we
have serious problems in terms of health care funding but
that is a political not an economic issue.

There is no question that Americans enjoy better health care than
Canadians overall. But your system is rationed just like it is in
Canada, except here it is rationed by government while in the US
it is rationed by the profit motive of private insurance companies.
Therefor it is unfair to those unfortunate enough to be poor
in pocket and in health.

[HEyHEY]

59. I doubt they would for prescriptions - mostly it's just queue jumping

Sometimes, when it's really busy and people don't want to wait they'll go to the USA... why can you get into a clinic in the USA so quick? CAUSE NO ONE DOWN THERE IS USING THE FACILITIES CAUSE IT'S TOO DAMNED EXPENSIVE.

No one up here gets "denied" treatment, people aren't dying at a rate of three hundred an hour because there's a bit of a wait for an MRI, either... it's shit they tell you so that you'll be scared into supporting for-profit health.

[JVS]

60. I think it's a mixed bag. DUer Girlincontempt has had a really monstrous time as a Canadian...

with an illness over the last year. Their medical system looked pretty bad from her story.

I have to wonder though if she'd be better off here. In the US we have great healthcare if one can afford it, for many though there is no coverage or such minimal coverage that it really doesn't stack up.

[slackmaster]

37. We have the "Canadian Problem" where I work too

But they're not nearly as bad as the arrogant, cliquish, nepotistic former Soviet people.

[HEyHEY]

64. stop slacking and work properly? Then maybe we would call so much

[HEyHEY]

40. Spend less time stalking people online and more time doing your job properly and we wouldn't have to

Phone and bother you.

Who the hell do you think you are going off on some tangent like this, you bigoted ass? Yes, the person above is the same, but..wait, not like I expected different.

[CanuckAmok]

42. It's the customers' fault they have to complain.

Obviously.

Maybe if the company stopped sucking, nobody would complain.

They'd probably have to start by trimming the fat. Then next to go would be the pedophilic moustaches. Pretty soon he wouldn't be there at all.

[applegrove]

28. Yes. During this recession Canadians want to see deficit spending over cutting the GST (good &

services tax). It isn't that we like taxes. It is that we get our money's worth of good governance so we accept it.

[GreenTea]

30. Thank the greedy republicans who pounded it in to their sheep to be selfish do not help

anyone else....Reagan administration really pushed this concept....and assholes like Limbaugh keep reiterating it!

[treestar]

31. You're right. Though more about Republicans. Then they

borrow and spend.

Republicans are stuck on this idea that rich people deserve the extra money - they're obsessed withthis theme. It is part of a moral imperative for them that people only have as much money as they "deserve."

[Fireweed247]

33. We can eliminate high taxes

by ending the stupid ass war on terror and homeland security.

Why is it the people who complain the most about paying taxes are the ones who want to mindlessly waste it?

[slackmaster]

36. I think one of our biggest problems is lack of financial education

Public schools teach almost nothing about things like real estate finance, creating a large population of people who can easily be talked into inappropriate (for most people) instruments like adjustable rate mortgages.

[ColbertWatcher]

38. Obama had a great line in his inagural speech ...

"... we have duties to ourselves, our nation and the world, duties that we do not grudgingly accept but rather seize gladly, firm in the knowledge that there is nothing so satisfying to the spirit, so defining of our character than giving our all to a difficult task.

This is the price and the promise of citizenship."

For the GOPers, citizenship is free.

[PeaceNikki]

39. You're right. If higher taxes yield more/better services, it's well worth it.

I'd gladly pay more, even significantly more taxes, if we got things like guaranteed health care for all, higher education and safer streets.

[Juche]

43. There has only been 1 side to the story here

Here in the US it is 'taxes are bad' 24/7. Virtually nobody in public life talks about the good of taxes.

I know that nowhere in the private market am I going to be able to buy a k-12 education, most of my college education, a pension and healthcare in retirement (social security & medicare), military protection, social programs, police, roads, quality control of what I buy, half our scientific R&D etc. for 25% of my gross income. I couldn't come close, and I'd be lucky to just get the healthcare & pension for 25%.

I think it'll take a long time to reframe the debate, but point is nobody offers a counterpoint to the 'taxes are always bad' meme. I seriously think that Katrnia was our wakeup call that saving $10/month in taxes is not more important than spending it on infrastructure.

[deaniac21]

44. I pray every night before I go to sleep that I will be able to pay

more taxes.

[.... callchet ....]

45. 1944 and 1945 94% was highest tax rate in USA

That is what we need now to pay our bills and put people to work.

[FatDave]

52. Top rates were in the 90% range trhoughout the 1950's.

And boy, did the economy ever suffer in the 1950's!

(it's :sarcasm:, genius, :sarcasm:)

[MajorChode]

56. The top marginal tax rate is meaningless if you don't pay it

The top marginal tax rate was 70% when Nixon was president. Agnew and he reported millions during his presidency and both paid almost no taxes.

The reason why AMT came about was because the rich weren't paying anything, even though the top rate was astronomical. They could deduct virtually everything.

[GA_ArmyVet]

55. Ok, if you want to start with insults

We could say that Canadians weak willed country that can't decide if it wants to be a British or French Colony, but that would be mean. Just kidding. No offense really, I actually love visiting there.

So let me just explain, we went to war for our Independence over being taxed without say in how it was being levied or in how it was being utilized.

I would be happy to pay higher and live within my budget when:

1. The Government learns to live within a budget and did not always come back for more. And more. And more. And more.
I mean if I blow my budget, I cant go to my boss and say I need a raise to cover my bills. In our form of government, they are
supposed to work for me. If cant manage the first bit of money I gave you, why should I trust you with more.

2. They did not waste such a great deal of money on Pork barrel Projects, Programs which have outlived their purpose, and paying off Lobbyist and Friends who got them elected.

3. When the Government stops tossing money at projects which do nothing to promote National Goals (ok for this one, it would be nice to actually identify some national goals)

4. If just once, just once, a government run project or program came in under budget.

5. If the people we send to DC would act like good steward of public money and not blow it like coke addict in crack house.

6. Lastly, once our Government Officials displayed some restraint in their conduct. Pay raises in a recession, remodeling offices every year, new cars every year, a huge waste of our tax dollars.

When this happens, I will welcome tax increase and with it the expected increase in service.

[Fearless]

57. Agreed.

[JVS]

58. We don't like paying money to a government that we have no confidence will help us.

It's kind of a catch 22.

We refuse to pay more because we don't think our government will use it for our benefit (i.e. Healthcare, aid in natural disaster, affordable higher education, etc.)

Because we don't pay more, our government is unable to do those things either.

But even if we did pay more, the idea that the government would make those a priority is very questionable.

Thus, a lot of people don't want any change because then it at least won't get worse.

[HEyHEY]

62. Most Canadians I know bitch about taxes just as much.

And I know ALOT of Canadians cause I live here.

[Orsino]

66. Cut-and-spend "conservatives." n/t

[acmavm]

69. Maybe a LOT of it is the majority of the American people are sick and

damn tired of seeing their tax money going into things that don't do them any good. Our tax system is rigged. That's making me pretty damn disgusted with having to have over to these parasites my damn hard-earned money.

[Pike]

71. I'm not sure that the government spends our money as wisely as

we do, so I have a problem with higher taxes.

[acmavm]

72. Let me tell ya, I'd have never financed a 'highway to nowhere' in

Alaska. I tend to want substance and purpose to be the reason behind what I spend. Or if it's for a good time, it better be worth it, like tickets to something special. But it has to be something I can afford (so I obviously don't see much).