Court turns away suit over Confederate flag shirts

[The Straight Story]

Court turns away suit over Confederate flag shirts

NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) — A full federal appeals court won't hear a lawsuit by three Tennessee students threatened with suspension if they wore Confederate flag T-shirts.

A three-judge panel ruled in August that Blount County, just south of Knoxville, could ban the clothing. On Friday, the judges denied a request for a hearing by the full federal appeals court in Cincinnati.

Students Derek Barr and Craig and Chris White argued their free speech rights were violated by the ban on clothes with the flag, which is considered a symbol of racism and intolerance by some and an emblem of Southern heritage by others.

School officials said their ban came after racial tension at William Blount High.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5i0BbJYaj1clLLdurnlCoOb_0dXxQD95SUQ8G5

[proud2BlibKansan]

1. A lot of DUers don't agree but I think school should be able to regulate what kids wear

Within reason, of course. :)

[ProgressiveProfessor]

2. Unfortunately some schools tend to get real stupid real fast with that authority

And its not limited to southern bible thumper regions.

[DCKit]

4. Yes, but there are so many petty tyrants and so few jobs in edumacation.

You've got to keep an eye on 'em.

[patriotvoice]

7. And I would be one of them: *public* schools should not regulate any more than *public* government.

If I can wear/brandish/carry X in a public library, then I should be able to do the same in a school. Perhaps this is naive, but I think it consistent. Otherwise, you empower school administrators to start banning whatever they please, even if doing so violates one's rights.

[baldguy]

11. So if they showed up in a Nazi flag shirt, that would be OK too?

Or a t-shirt depicting a lynching?

People are allowed free speech - they aren't allowed to advocate violence.

[patriotvoice]

20. Like I said, if I can wear those in a public library, I should be able to wear it in a school.

In essence, I'm suggesting we normalize the law across public institutions, not cherry picking the institutions. So if those shirts are deemed as inciting violence, and therefore not protected under 1st Amendment guarantees, then yes: they should be banned from all public venues: schools, libraries, parks, courtrooms, etc.

[proud2BlibKansan]

43. And if the kid wearing the Nazi shirt gets the shit beat out of him

and his parents sue the school for not making sure he was safe while at school . . .

There really is a good reason for dress codes that prohibit Nazi shirts etc.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

50. What if it was a pro lesbian or pro choice shirt?

[proud2BlibKansan]

52. Still might get the shit beat out of him

[ProgressiveProfessor]

53. Should those be banned as well for the reasons you gave?

Note: There was a court case on this...

[proud2BlibKansan]

54. I am not a lawyer - I see it as a safety issue

If a student of mine wore such a shirt, I would discourage him/her for that reason.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

57. Its called a hecklers veto, and its wrong.

Just because someone may not like what your shirt supports should not mean you should not be able to wear it in a free society without fear of a beat down. However, high schools are not an open and free society. Disruption/distraction is a real issue. However the dress code hardliners clearly go well beyond that. California law is pretty clear that a tight dress code is in fact a uniform and that parents can opt out. Google the Tigger socks case in Napa, it may be of interest/amusement.

Current rules as a whole tend to make it OK to support a group, almost any group, but not deride a group. Black Pride, Brown Pride, Gay Pride, and even White Pride are ok, God Hates Fags is not. Occasionally that concept gets lost. Barbie is a Lesbian and Straight Pride are cases were the courts were brought in.

There are also the occasional race related issues, such as droopy pants and hair styles. Rules against the droopy/baggy pants are often considered aimed at black males. There was a school allowed dreads for black students but had a fit when a white guy showed up with them.

One of the nice things about teaching at the college level is that you really don't have to worry about such thing. I really don't care how they dress or what they look like as long as they have bathed recently.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

13. There is a threshold of disruption in there somewhere that should be addressed

Also there are always those who will push the line. If the rules are pants for guys and skirts or pants for girls, can a guy wear a kilt or shorts? If pride shirts are allowed, does that include straight or white pride (there was a real case on this). Makeup on guys (predates goth and emo). TV/CD in school. While it should make no difference, in HS and JrHi, it does.

[SoCalNative]

9. The obvious solution is

requiring uniforms for all students, K-12.

Problem solved.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

16. You need to read the rules on that in California. The parents can opt out and the school can do

nothing about it. There have even been claims made against staff members for harassing objectors

[Orsino]

18. The other obvious solution, of course, is mandatory nekkid campuses.

Problem solved.

[spoony]

23. I'm all for that.

Anything else wastes time and resources, especially in costly lawsuits, trying to figure out the "line". The other benefit as I see it is the removal of strata based on expensive fashions. These vastly outweigh the few-hours-a-day loss of clothing-based self-expression.

[Kalyke]

25. Wow - more hardships on parents.

I'm in Knoxville - just north of the school in question. Some of our schools have gone and/or are considering uniforms.

However, they want you to purchase them at only at certain stores (one of which is Wal-mart. Groan).

Many people - even us Middle Classers - are simply too poor right now to afford entire new wardrobes at the bequest of school administrators every year because said uniforms aren't available on eBay or in thrift stores - where a number of parents buy their children clothes (no since in paying retail when Johnnie or Susie will outgrow them in a year.)

And, while I'm sure the very poor could get some local grants, it doesn't solve the hardship on parents who are getting by, but still can't afford $500 in clothing every year.

[spoony]

28. Parents are already pressured to buy name-brand clothes

for their kids at the start of the school year, aren't they? And they wouldn't need to be replaced any more often than regular clothing, and I imagine they're less expensive than whatever labels are in now. But, I think with the resources spared from having to litigate this issue school districts could help defray the costs for students' families.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

30. Its actually cheaper in the vast majority of cases

Fashion is expensive, school uniforms are not

[proud2BlibKansan]

47. Our kids can wear red, white or blue shirts with a collar

and blue or khaki pants or skirts. Girls can also wear jumpers but most don't.

Most parents really like it and say they are spending a lot less on clothes.

Of course we aren't telling them which stores to go to buy the uniforms.

[proud2BlibKansan]

37. It sure has helped where I am

Lots of problems we no longer have.

[merh]

12. They should regulate within reason

and stating specifics, not some arbitrary decision made on the spot.

And the minors shouldn't be punished, the parents or responsible parents should be contacted and told that they must bring a change of clothing for the child and/or plan on taking the child home until the child is dressed within the dress code.

[Caliman73]

17. problem is that there is no cosensus on "within reason"

Kinda like how some chainsaws have a safety label warning users not to stop the saw with their crotch, or how McDonald's can get sued by a woman who spilled coffee on herself because there was no warning that the coffee was hot.

Common sense is not that common and reasonable to some may be draconian to others and too lenient to still others.

[proud2BlibKansan]

39. There is a lot more to that McDona'd's coffee case

Once I heard the whole story I couldn't blame that woman for suing. It is the story of a corporation gone crazy.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

56. Our whole system of jurisprudence is based on "reasonableness"

It's not that difficult 99.99% of the time. When it becomes difficult, as in the OP, it can go to court.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

58. the McDonald's coffee case was about FORESEEABILITY.

It was quite foreseeable that somebody would spill their coffee which was heated to far higher temperatures than necessary, and they had been sued over 100 times before the woman with the 3rd degree burns did.

They KNEW their coffee was too hot, and refused to lower the temperature.

That was a reasonable case.

And yes I AM a lawyer.

[Posteritatis]

19. Of course, "within reason" is bafflingly subjective for a term that includes the word 'reason' (nt)

[Strong Atheist]

27. The courts have consistently ruled that minors

do not have the same full rights as adults, especially in school. For instance, school lockers can be searched by the administration, they are not "private" because they are school property...

School systems frequently have dress codes, and they are USUALLY supported by courts...

[proud2BlibKansan]

40. Another factoid frequently left out of these discussions

:)

[Strong Atheist]

42. Well, I work in the field, so I know

a bit about it...

[Winterblues]

44. I think even those that disagree with you would agree "gang colors"

should not be allowed.. How are these T-shirts different than that?

[proud2BlibKansan]

46. Probably not that different

And that gang color thing is old news now. The colors don't seem to be as big of a deal as they used to be. At least not where I am. Now the gangs do grafiti and claim territory that way. They even 'tag' themselves with gang signs. Kids use sharpie markers and a pin to make their own tatoos. They tag their school books too so we have had to tell them only their names can be written on their books and notebooks.

And I know there are those that will say schools should not have the right to do that either but when it comes to keeping kids safe, I will go there.

[orleans]

3. at my daughter's high school kids were not allowed to wear

t-shirts with pictures or ads for anything related to smoking and drinking, and no swear words. i wonder what they would have done about a confederate flag. hopefully they would have done the same.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

6. Even that can get taken to extremes

A family I know got in trouble with their elementary school principal because their young son wore a shirt to school that had the name "Winchester" on it. Gun references were banned and the child and parents got a stern lecture over it. Parent protested to no avail but got it reversed at the school board level. The principal made life hard for them for the next two years and any claims of vengeance were ignored.

The shirt was from the Winchester Mystery House. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_Mystery_House

[Hassin Bin Sober]

55. Got it reversed at the board level?

So they made a federal case because their kid couldn't wear a T-shirt from a tourist attraction which, by the way, did in fact have the name of a rifle maker's family.

Was it a bit of an over reach on the part of the principal? Sure. But there is a hint of douche-baggery on the part of the parents as well.

I have two words for your friends and the douche-bags in the OP story - Home School.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

60. The principal reports to the school district so seems a rational escalation to me

When an employee does not perform satisfactorily, you go their their supervisor. School principals tend to think of themselves as sovereign in their buildings and need to be reminded of their true status occasionally. Court would have been a bit much.

The funny part about it was it made the local paper, and no one publicly supported the principal's stupidity. He took it personally and was an asshat to them for the remainder of the year and the next. He had that kind of reputation in the education community as well. My kids were older at that time.

Given the weaknesses in public schools, which are worse today than when my children went through them, some amount of home schooling is mandatory. It can be as simple as educational games and museums trips in the summer. Foreign language exposure is also good.

[Iggo]

5. We wore Sex Wax t-shirts to school back in the 70s.

We've come a long way....backwards!

[ProgressiveProfessor]

8. More subtle today, though I will admit to having a Zogs shirt as well

[Iggo]

45. What did it say?

"Best for your stick" or words to that effect?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

48. Indeed, the classic round logo

[orleans]

62. i had to google "sex wax" to find out what it is...

i went to school in the '70's & don't remember ever hearing of it. now i see why--surfing wax? i live in the midwest. not a lot of big waves around here.

[Belial]

10. I think schools are trying to remove any chance of violence

Growing up many years ago.. the only time you saw a police officer was on career day.. now they actuall have sub-stations at many of the schools.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

14. That is treating symptoms, not addressing the real issues

[Belial]

15. and the real issue would be? The violence? The lack of parent

involvement in our schools?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

21. Intolerance of divergent views. Its a classic hecklers veto situation

Claim its offensive and hint that students might not be able to control their feelings and *bang* its banned. Seen it any number of times. Certain amount of PC mixed in.

I can understand the drive for uniforms, it does make things much easier.

[Caliman73]

22. yes, among others.

there are underlying issues that affect the levels of violence in schools. Not all schools are violent so we need to look into why. It is good to take steps in the short term to curtail problems, but that intervention soon becomes an industry within itself. Look at how much some schools are forced to spend on security apparatus. Someone profits, and when there is profit to be made, the search for real solutions often falls by the wayside.

[Belial]

26. great point!! I think another major issue is when studies

are made into the violence at our schools and data is not favorable to some, instead of trying to continue the conversation, it is often shelved in favor of not hurting someones feelings.

[ieoeja]

24. Friends of mine who grew up in Chicago during the 60s and 70s say school shootings were commonplace.

Best friend told me of one U-shaped school where rival gangs took control of each end of the U one day. They spent the day shooting across at each other and at anyone in the courtyard. And since the school, in an effort to prevent violence, had locked all the exits except the one at the base of the U facing into the courtyard, all the students had to run the gauntlet of gunfire to get out!

As for the cops, school shootings were so common at the time that this wasn't considered a priority.

For that matter, when I moved here in '85 it was still about a weekly occurrence. Today, it makes national news when one happens.

[tularetom]

29. If some dumbass kids want to look like ignorant redneck douchebags, let 'em

It won't be too long before some other kids beat the snot out of them.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

31. So if a kid wears a t-shift that espouses a locally unpopular position

getting whooped on is alright with you?

[tularetom]

32. You have slyly turned my argument around on me

But still, kids are gonna be kids. Am I in favor of some kid getting thumped because he wears a shirt advocating gay rights? Of course not, but it's going to happen. Am I in favor of a kid getting beat up because he wears a shirt displaying a symbol of hatred and bigotry? To be perfectly honest with you, I really don't care.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

34. Classic conundrum - rulings are all over the map

If gay pride is okay, then so must be straight pride (there was a case on that)

[HillWilliam]

33. This white, Appalachian (and gay) Southerner is calling bullshit

on their "heritage" argument. Those of us who wish to remember our genealogy and history (good, bad, and indifferent) would tend to use the First National flag if we use a flag at all (like a graphic on a section on a family genealogy site, for example). Use of the Naval Ensign (later adopted as the battle flag and later co-opted by racist doofuses who like to make the rest of us look like doofuses) is considered distasteful, tacky, declassé, intentionally inciteful, and downright rude.

I get realllllllllllllllllllllllllllllly tired of the south-bashing that goes on on DU and I get even more tired of little assholes like these three little Tennessee jackasses that make sure that south-bashers have something to point at.

There's a lot more to it than anyone has let on. As a Southerner, a student of history, and a genealogist, I want to put my foot down firmly. Somebody needs to slap the catshit out of morans like those.

This is the First National:


If those morans were "concerned" about "heritage" they'd use the First National. Using the battle flag, well, that lets you know just who and what they really are.

/end :rant:

[ProgressiveProfessor]

35. There are actually 3 of them, and most teachers would not recognize them

Everyone keys on the Stars and Bars...

[hfojvt]

38. I find myself keying on

the word "pendat"

Who dat said pendat when I said who dat?

[HillWilliam]

41. Exactly, there are three plus the Naval Ensign

When the first three were luffed or furled, they looked too much like the Union flag and there were far too many friendly-fire incidents on both sides. Interesting tidbit. It's a shame that history isn't taught properly, not even in passing.

Meh, on top of that, one would think that the entire of the Revolutionary War had been fought north of the Mason-Dixon line, for all of the history books we had in school when I went through. Even in NC, we never studied Cowpens, Kings Mountain, Mecklenburg, Guilford Courthouse, or Alamance. I didn't get to study them until decades later when I found I had ancestors at all but the first of those. Yet, if these battles hadn't happened, we'd all be sipping tea and discussing the latest cricket results. It was all about Concord, Paul Revere, The Shot Heard Round the World. Not a word about Southern contributions.

Yeah, we southerners do take the south-bashing a bit hard, but it's systematic and has been going on since Reconstruction.

I get exponentially incensed when jackasses like in the OP have to live down to the stereotypes.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

36. Other courts are letting them be worn, really mixed bag of ruling out there

[TWiley]

49. aww Shit ..... Now I have to guess at who to insult.

[TheKentuckian]

51. At my school we literally wore whatever the fuck we wanted.

Guess what we worked it out. People focused on "doing them" while figuring out that the differences were vastly outnumbered by our similarities.

People expressed themselves and were allowed to develop their own personality. Oddly enough most people I went to school with are fairly productive and aware citizens. Very low incarceration. Happy families.

This is across all demographic boundaries.
The focus on lowest common denominator is as far as I can tell lower the bar and eroding our ability to be thinking individuals. Lets be a voice that brings a loud and clear voice calling for the bar to be raised instead of dumbed down as some of us on the left are so quick to plead for.

We need to help these kids to be thinkers and you aren't going to program or protect them to that place. What is easier is not always, maybe even seldom better. You cannot protect from offense and maintain a free society any more than you can trade freedom for security.

[depakid]

59. If states would simply adopt school uniforms- like Britain and Australia,

they wouldn't have these problems- and it would be a lot easier on parents as well.

And how about this? Require all school uniforms to be made in America.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

61. California allows parents to opt out of mandatory uniforms

Some school have tried to get around that and have lost. Others tried extreme pressure on the students and got slapped for that too.

That said, as a parent, its sure make a lot of things easier. Even Obama's high school went to uniforms recently.