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Holder Holdup...call me crazy...had a thought

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radfringe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-09 05:20 PM
Original message
Holder Holdup...call me crazy...had a thought
There are various theories out there regarding the Holder Holdup having to do with a statute of limitations on some unknown crime involving anything from torture, warrentless wiretapping to the midnight run of Gonzo on Ashcroft in the hospital.

The one thing in common is all these theories center on the date of March 15-16 as when the Statute runs out.

Assume for a moment that these theories are true, and the Holder Holdup is to prevent AG's office from bringing charges against whoever from the bush days.

Here's where you can call me crazy.

Do you recall a little thing like RECESS APPOINTMENTS? I don't know the rules that have to apply to call a recess nor how long a recess has to be.

But what if Congress goes out on recess for a couple of days? Obama could appoint Holder.

Yeah, assuming it could be done, and Obama/Dems are willing to do it - there would be blowback of all sorts - however if it's important enough to play "beat the clock" with Holder's confirmation, this is a possible solution.

Like I said - call me crazy...

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stopbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-09 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
1. Statute of limitations on war crimes?
Doubtful.
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radfringe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-09 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. I've heard the crimes
being listed under many different catagories

within the war crimes catagory, it would be obstruction, false testimony - things of that nature
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #4
13. The statute began to run after GWB left office - 5 years for your
standard RICO/Conspiracy crimes.

They ran a criminal enterprise to cover up their crimes, it was a conspiracy of the highest order.

Say you were to go after the torturers and those that ordered the torture. The crimes may have occurred 5 years ago but the continued and on going efforts to cover them up, the conspiracy to prevent investigation and prosecution - the statute began to run at noon on Jan 20, 2009.

There is time enough left.
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-09 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. The statute of limitations would be on perjury and/or obstruction of justive.
The war crimes have no statute.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #5
14. RICO & Conspiracy have 5 year statutes - the began to run 1/20/09
The Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act (commonly referred to as RICO Act or RICO) is a United States federal law that provides for extended criminal penalties and a civil cause of action for acts performed as part of an ongoing criminal organization. RICO was enacted by section 901(a) of the Organized Crime Control Act of 1970 (Pub.L. 91-452, 84 Stat. 922, enacted October 15, 1970). RICO is codified as Chapter 96 of Title 18 of the United States Code, 18 U.S.C. § 1961–1968. While its intended use was to prosecute The Mafia as well as others who were actively engaged in organized crime, its application has been more widespread.

Or Conspiracy

Federal criminal conspiracy

by Scott A. Aftuck , Erica J. Dominitz , Stephanie A. Pickels

The general federal conspiracy statute makes it a crime for "two or more persons conspire . . . to commit any offense against the United States, or to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof in any manner or for any purpose."(1) It is distinct from the substantive crime contemplated and is charged as a separate offense.(2) Conspiracy is one of the most commonly charged federal crimes.(3)

The Supreme Court has described the gravity of the conspiracy offense:

For two or more to confederate and combine together to commit or cause to be committed a breach of the criminal laws, is an offense of the gravest character, sometimes quite outweighing, in injury to the public, the mere commission of the contemplated crime. It involves deliberate plotting to subvert the laws, educating and preparing the conspirators for further and habitual criminal practices. And it is characterized by secrecy, rendering it difficult of detection, requiring more time for its discovery, and adding to the importance of punishing it when discovered.(4)

In addition to section 371, there are specific provisions proscribing conspiracy in more than twenty federal statutes.(5) These provisions attach to the particular substantive offenses of the statute in which they appear. Section 371, on the other hand, is generally applicable to any conspiracy where the goal is to "commit any offense against the United States, or to defraud the United States."(6) It proscribes any agreement to violate a civil or criminal federal law.(7)

Section 371's "defraud" clause broadly applies to "any conspiracy for the purpose of impairing, obstructing, or defeating the lawful function of any department of government.'"(8) It is not necessary that the conspiracy subject the government to property or pecuniary loss.(9)

The essential features of a conspiracy, secrecy and concealment,(10) make conspiracies difficult to prosecute, especially if they are successful. Consequently, the law lessens the government's burden of proving the essential elements by only requiring a showing of the "essential nature of the plan" and " connections with it" to ensure that conspirators do not "go free by their very ingenuity."(11)

Section one of this article introduces the basic elements of the offense of conspiracy under section 371. Defenses available to challenge charges brought under the statute are discussed in section two of the article, and various procedural and substantive rules regarding enforcement of the statute are surveyed in section three. The final section discusses the evidentiary and constitutional guidelines governing admissibility of co-conspirator hearsay testimony at trials involving conspiracy charges.

I. Elements of the Offense

There are four elements necessary for proving a criminal conspiracy, each of which the prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt.(12) A conspiracy exists where: (1) there is an agreement between the parties; (2) to achieve an illegal goal; (3) with knowledge of the conspiracy and with actual participation in the conspiracy; and (4) at least one conspirator committed an overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy.(13)

A. Agreement

The first essential element that the government must prove to establish a conspiracy is existence of an agreement between two or more persons(14) to work together toward a common goal. Co-conspirators may enter the agreement at any time during the course of the conspiracy.(15) The "essence" of a conspiracy "is an agreement to commit an unlawful act."(16) However, it is not necessary for the government to prove a formal agreement.(17) An understanding among conspirators is sufficient to constitute an agreement,(18) and this element may be proven through circumstantial evidence(19) or may be inferred from the defendant's actions.(20) The existence of a conspiratorial agreement may also be proven by evidence of previous similar criminal activities.(21)

Under section 371, an agreement between only two actors, one of whom is a government agent, cannot support a conspiracy conviction.(22) However, a government agent, often a government informant, can serve as a link between a true conspirator and a defendant.(23)

B. Illegal Goal

The second essential element in a federal conspiracy charge is that the conspiracy had an illegal goal.(24) To convict a defendant on a federal conspiracy charge, the government must establish that the aim of the conspiracy was to violate a federal law or to defraud or hinder a lawful federal government objective.(25) While the "statutory language is not confined to fraud as that term has been defined in the common law"(26) and although the Supreme Court's language in Hammerschmidt v. United States(27) seemed to require that the means to defraud be dishonest,(28) Supreme Court cases both prior and subsequent to Hammerschmidt have upheld conspiracy convictions which did not charge dishonest or deceptive means.(29) Some circuits have affirmed convictions on conspiracy counts absent allegations of fraud or dishonesty,(30) while other circuits require such a showing.(31) It is not necessary that the conspirators intend or know that the conspiracy will violate federal law; a concert of action is sufficient to prove this element.(32)

C. Intent and Participation

The third element the government must prove is that the defendant knew of the conspiratorial agreement and voluntarily participated in it.(33) The government need not prove that the defendant knew all the details(34) or objectives(35) of the conspiracy, or that the defendant knew the identity of all the participants in the conspiracy.(36) The criminal intent to commit the substantive offense is established by the formation of the conspiracy.(37) Thus, the existence of a conspiracy and a...

http://www.questia.com/googleScholar.qst;jsessionid=J61N8T4K1PJ1wJJY7xbyyysTKskNX48mldr2HZS8fnyP5gygTCLT!832988903?docId=5000287148
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damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-09 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. No, on NSA wiretapping.
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-09 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
2. Thom Hartman says there is no statute of limitations on war crimes. n/t
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-09 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
3. I don't know about the recess appointment aspect of it,
but the deal with the statute of limitations was suggested to be obstruction of justice and/or perjury. Each of those carry a 5 year statute of limitations. Torture, spying and the rest have no statutes.
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LakeSamish706 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-09 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
6. Why couldn't Obama make him acting AG? n/t
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-09 05:33 PM
Response to Original message
7. Stop worrying. Holder will be confirmed, and most likely next week.
The Pubs are putting on a show, trying to look relavant to their donors.
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glinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-09 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Media should start pointing out how Repubs don't really want to co-operate
Grandstanding, selfishness has to go. No time for it anymore.
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-09 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. NOTHING will ever stop politicians from grandstanding! That's what they do!
To the majority of people, they just look foolish!
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glinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Does that mean we or the media or the Dems have to accept that?
NOOOOOOOOO!
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. Of course we do. There IS freedom of speech ya know!
I suggest we all ignore Boehner, Cornan, and all the other Pubs who do their grandstanding. They have NO POWER to do anything.

You can't shut them uop, but we can make them irrelevant.
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damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-09 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
11. Maybe crazy like a fox.
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radfringe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 07:23 AM
Response to Original message
16. Missing the point
Doesn't matter what the charges are or would be... Point is there are concerns regarding getting Holder confirmed within "X" amount of time.

Whether the holdup is related to crimes, or repubs fearing real investigations or just repubs postering is not relevant to my 'crazy idea'

If there is an urgency to having Holder installed as AG - then is it feasible to have a congressional recess which would allow Obama to do a RECESS APPOINTMENT?

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