Fix the economy! Shut Down WALMART! Rely on Small Business!

[NM Independent]

If I had to think of ONE thing, aside from trickle-down/deregulation economics, that had more to do with the mess we are in than anything else it would be...

Tada...WALMART

Over the years I have watched this town whither away due to the increase in size of Walmart. At first, they were an okay store, and they were attached to our only Mall which helped out the other businesses. They prided themselves on selling mostly American merchandise. Then they added on an auto service section and a grocery store, and a couple of our smallest tire shops, oil change places, and farmer's markets all went under.

Then came SUPER WALMART.

It wasn't long before more and more small businesses disappeared, only to be replaced be the next corporate invaders -- Home Depot has killed off most of the small hardware and specialty stores. Smaller hole in the wall restaurants have disappeared with the appearance of the corporate chains. Computer stores are all but gone thanks to OfficeMax and others. I could of course go on and on and on.

I have a solution. Wake up the sheeple to stop buying Chinese crap and SHUT DOWN WALMART!!

Unfortunately, I have no idea how to do it, but if it were to happen I believe we would see an incredible invigoration in small business. The doors would once again be open for people to build their own businesses again.

Small American businesses buying from small American businesses. Can you imagine? I can. I'm only 31 and I can remember it in MY lifetime.

Any suggestions?

[grannie4peace]

1. i think you are right

[polichick]

2. I agree. Walmart is the perfect symbol of what's wrong with America.

[handmade34]

3. Buy American...

or do without. We all need to help and support each other on this one.

[buzzard]

26. I try to buy Canadian goods if possible and then USA, it is very hard to do.n/t

[treestar]

64. Does Canada have Walmarts or the like, and the same influx

from China? I'm curious about the similarities/differences between Canada and the US.

[southernyankeebelle]

4. Wal Mart is a big supporter of the Republican Party

Well I would like to do the same however, you would be putting follow americans out of work who already are trying to make a living. They are most likely lower middle class. Their health insurance is high and they really don't get much of a break. I live in a rural area. We already have a drug store, circuit city, a couple of food places and some other stores that are either closing or about to close. The only sure thing we have here is the super wal mart store. That has everything in one store. We also have 2 other grocery stores all in a small rural town. So close Wal Mart and open up your little stores thats fine. But most people around here can't afford to buy in these mom and pop stores because their prices are high. So you see either way someone gets hurt. I have a family relative that works at wal mart and I surely wouldn't want them to lose their job. I pray for as many people to keep their jobs no matter where they work.

[wartrace]

5. Walmart, Target, K-Mart, McDonald's........

I wonder how many of the store workers would be able to find other employment? I wonder how the shareholders of these companies would feel about losing billions of dollars in equity?

If you are worried about the cheap stuff from China we could impose trade restrictions & tariffs. It would of course be IMPOSSIBLE to do that as China would dump all their holdings of treasury notes & bills in retaliation.

[Deja Q]

9. Dump them to where?

I don't understand.

[wartrace]

13. Simple.

Sell them. It would probably be difficult right now so they would have to discount them. They would not buy any more in the future & of course you know what that would cost us.

[Hannah Bell]

18. it would cost about $200 billion/yr. not that big a deal.

[wartrace]

19. Where did you get that figure?

I was inferring that discounting these securities would raise the rate it would cost for the United States to borrow funds in the future. Lack of future demand would also increase our overall borrowing costs.

[Hannah Bell]

20. actually, i over-estimated. china lent the US about $120 billion from sept 07

to sept 08. scroll down to the middle of the page & look at the chart labeled: Foreign owners of US Treasury Securities, compare '07 & '08 totals: 585 - 467.7 = $117.3 billion borrowed '07-'08.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt

The US gov't borrows more than that each year from excess social security tax collections, & the total us debt to China is 1/4 the size of the SS Trust Fund.

The scare stories about China financing the US are just that: they're intended to make people think the US has few options, no room to maneuver, & so must cut social spending, reduce wages, etc.

In fact, Clinton made significant inroads with just a small tax adjustment on the upper brackets. More could be done if there were the will.

[wartrace]

22. They hold 585 billion dollars in total.

Sure, it's ""only" 120 billion a year in new funding. In ten years time it is "only"............We don't need them at all! :bounce: If they decided to NOT invest in our debt the lack of demand WILL drive up our costs to borrow from those who do invest.

[Hannah Bell]

23. fact remains, $117 billion isn't much. not in terms of the entire federal budget, or US GDP.

Bush's tax cuts to the top .3% cost about that.

we spent more than that on iraq last year.

& if we so choose, we could finance obama's infrastructure program the way lincoln financed a lot of the civil war - with government-issued (v. bank-issued) money, & avoid the whole conundrum.

[Hugabear]

30. Gee, I don't know - maybe the dozens of small businesses that used to exist?

Please, do not sit here and try to defend these mega-corporations who exploit the hell out of their workers. If Walmart were to shut its doors, if there were no Targets, Home Depots, or other giant box stores, you'd see plenty of small businesses rise up to take their place.

[NM Independent]

36. Exactly, and that's my point in a nutshell.

Thanks.

[wartrace]

53. So you want government to regulate the size of businesses?

That would be interesting. Lets do the same to Intel, Microsoft, General Electric, General Motors.......
Each company could only have ONE manufacturing facility.....

In what way is an employee working for a "Mom & Pop" better off than a WalMart worker?

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

59. I hate Wmart, but its the 2nd largest emp in the US, where would those folks go?

Next to the government, Walmart employs more people than anyone.

These folks are not paid decently, true - but where would you send all of these
folks after immediately shutting down their job?

[Canuckistanian]

6. Walmart has been the major problem, not the solution

Sure they save you money. But they do so by CHEATING.

As they "slash prices", they also slash wages, jobs and whole North American manufacturing industries.

And in return, give us shoddy merchandise and poor service.

It's why I NEVER go near a Walmart or give them any of my hard-earned money.

[polly7]

7. I have been saying this forever.

You know, even up here our strip malls are disappearing. There are no mom & pop stores left, unless you go to the bigger cities. I hate shopping anymore because it's so depressing.

[Thothmes]

8. Who should we care about the moms and pops

they were not unionized, they paid below minimum wage, and they offered no health care or any other benefits. The only time you got a promotion in a mom and pop organzation was to sleep with the son or daughter of mom and pop. The employees of walmart or target have to work under essentially the same set of rules.

[FatDave]

21. What you say is true.

But likely the lesser of two evils. National health care would help.

[NM Independent]

38. That's not only a gross generalization, but...

a disgusting stereotype as well.

Small business owners are not all like that, and I would bet that in reality only a fraction may behave that way. Even at that, your chances are just as good with a "mom & pop" as they are with a corporation.

Besides, when I say small business that could be a place employing anywhere from 1 to a few hundred people. The bigger the business, the more room for advancement and good pay within that business.

I personally know several small business owners that pay their employees very well, AND provide health insurance and other benefits.

You paint with a very broad brush.

Also, Unions aren't the answer to everything, nor are they necessary for all employment situations.

[pokercat999]

10. Wal-Mart is only a symbol of the real problem which is that

we no longer manufacture things in this country.

To fix the problem we need to take one giant first step.....limit imports to those countries and companies that hold to our EPA, OSHA and wage and hour laws including minimum wage at the US rate based on the US dollar. Period no exceptions and it would need to go into force immediately turning away shipments already in transit.

That would put us on a level playing field.

[lynne]

11. Walmart employs 1.4 million in the US alone -

- it's my understanding that the figure doesn't include subcontracted employees for shipping, etc. If we give financial incentives to auto manufacturers to stay open to retain jobs, why would we shut down Walmart to create 1.4 million unemployed?

[Hugabear]

31. Using that logic, perhaps we should bring back the sweatshops

After all, a job is a job, no matter if it's for minimum wage, no benefits, etc right?

As I stated above, if you shut down Walmart, then all these small businesses that Walmart put out of business would come back. Instead of having one giant monolithic store in an area, you'd have dozens of smaller independent stores crop up. After all, people would still need those goods and services.

[lynne]

40. True Mom & Pop's ARE Sweatshops. I know, I worked at one in my youth -

- as a rule they pay minimum wage, have no benefits, unpaid vacation, mostly part time work, and you must either be dating the daughter of the owner or be a cousin to get a job. Mom & Pop Shops have been romanticized in recent years. The reality is that they're just mini-Walmarts with a reduced selection of goods and lousy pay except they're owned by Mom and Pop and staffed by relatives and friends.

[NM Independent]

44. Oh, for the love of God...

Small business could have as many as 100 employees when you consider small regional chains. There is something between "mom & pops" (which I wasn't necessarily referring to in the OP) and Mega-Corporations.

I'm not anti-corporation, or anti-capitalism for that matter. I just want a fair playing field restored.

When I say "Shut down Walmart," what I mean is the people need to wake up to the fact that Walmart and Chinese imports are degrading our economy. When that happens small business will rise as consumers begin to support local businesses again.

I'm not fool enough to think Walmart can be eradicated, but the world can change around it and force it back to where it was many years ago.

If people could just WAKE UP!

[Blue Diadem]

51. That's been my experience as well.

That was in the mid-late 90's for me. It was a real eye opener and it was more than one place too.

[Blue Diadem]

49. Have you ever worked for a small place?

I have worked for a few. Not all small independent businesses are run by people who treat their employees well. The pay isn't any better and health insurance and other benefits may be non-existant. Two where I worked had employees injured on the job. They did everything within their power to not have those people claim worker's comp.

They are often the ones who put up a fight over a minimum wage increase. They also have to charge more for their products just because they can not get the same bulk/quantity rates that a larger business gets from suppliers.

There are also some labor laws that don't apply to small businesses such as the WARN act.

[WillowTree]

52. So, would people just have to do without the things that they now get at WalMart...

....for the 10-15 years or more that it would take for all these smaller businesses "crop up" and take its place?

[stray cat]

12. Sounds like a way to encourage massive job losses with no near term replacements with better pay

[elocs]

14. Any supposedly good idea needs to check in with the Law of Unintended Consequences.

In a capitalist free enterprise system such as we have, how do you magically shut one of the nation's largest privately owned business? Or are we changing this into some other kind of country?

The sad truth is that at this very moment hundreds of thousands of people depend upon WalMart (or ChinaMart as I call it) for their employment, to feed their families and to pay their mortgages. Another sad truth is that millions of other Americans cannot afford to shop other places or even to consider buying American. Now in this what-if scenario if you can snap your fingers and magically deal the these two truths as well as the difficulty under our economic system of shutting down a personally owned business, then you might have something.

We need to deal with the truth and reality as it exists now and not spend time with pipe dreams that are totally unrealistic and will never happen. The ultimate truth is that WalMart is not going anywhere and if you don't like it, don't shop there.

[AdHocSolver]

27. One, we no longer have a "free" enterprise system. Two, you MAKE it possible to compete with WalMart

Many more millions are now unemployed or underemployed, thanks to WalMart, than WalMart employs. Supporting "monopolies" like WalMart, at the expense of the smaller companies that used to compete with WalMart, is a losing proposition.

Trade agreements and tax laws that favor monopolies such as WalMart are the reason they are so "successful". In an economy that was truly competitive, WalMart would not fair so well as a competitor.

WalMart's creating a situation in which they become a "company" store where the people who work their are paid so little that they can't afford to shop elsewhere is not my idea of a career to aspire to, nor is it good for America.

[elocs]

28. Bottom line: in this country we do not simply shut down a privately owned business

just because we don't like them. This is a wet dream. Wake up!

[AdHocSolver]

29. You failed to read and understand what I wrote.

WalMart effectively shut down thousands of small businesses by their monopolistic business practices.

The people's representatives, aka our governments, have to level the playing field by reversing the trade agreements and tax laws that were implemented (mostly by Republicans) that RIGGED the economic environment in favor of monopolies such as WalMart and against small businesses.

Making competition viable again will solve the WalMart problem by itself. No need to "shut it down".

[elocs]

32. Well, it won't be the first time or the last.

I must confess that I did not read much of this one either. Does that make me a bad person, or just a tired one?

[Hugabear]

33. We can sure as hell take steps to make things better

Force them to treat their employees right. Allow them to unionize - which would be a HUGE step. Clamp down on cheaply imported goods, encourage more domestic sources. Pass zoning laws which restrict where new "mega-stores" can be built.

[elocs]

34. Right, but we can't just shut them down.

[madmom]

57. I'm sorry but you are wrong. I used to work at Wal-mart and they are one of the better paying jobs

in this area as far as retail goes. I know this for a fact!

[NM Independent]

39. You misunderstood me.

I do not mean that the government should shut them down. I'm not a totalitarian. I was thinking more along the lines of people waking up, somehow, and realizing just how badly Walmart is hurting this nation. If that were to happen on a large enough scale, then Walmart stores would start shutting down while small business has a chance to thrive again.

I can think of one thing that might make it happen. That would be continual mass protests in front of as many Walmart Stores as possible.

[1776Forever]

15. Wal-Mart has stripped away more then treasures - They have killed neighborhoods.

I can remember when my little town had oodles of places to shop. We had small, medium and large stores. Some were chains and some Mom and Pops. I loved it! It gave me a since of hometown flavor that is so missing now. Millions of children will never know that feeling again as long as Wal-Mart snuffs out most of the competition!

[wartrace]

16. That would result in a huge hit for a lot of people.

Not only would WalMart's stock have no value, not many other companies would either. Once the precedence was set that a company could be forced out of business for being too successful there would be no confidence in the stock of any company.

[Hippo_Tron]

17. Wal-Mart is the the very nature of the free market economy

People want cheaper products and nobody does it cheaper than Wal-Mart. If you want to defeat Wal-Mart then you have to convince people that always low prices all the time isn't worth the cost. And that's a tough proposition, although certainly a noble one.

[AdHocSolver]

24. Walmart IS the problem, and they have a lot of company.

The offshoring of jobs eliminated a lot of decent paying manufacturing jobs. Many workers who lost these good paying jobs are now unemployed, underemployed, or working at low-paying service jobs such as at Walmart.

The solution is to bring back good paying jobs to America and Walmart employees will have an incentive and ability to say goodbye to Walmart.

What needs to be done is to make it less profitable to offshore jobs. That is, rewrite trade agreements such as NAFTA, the WTO, the IMF, the World Bank, and take the Federal Reserve away from the crooks who have been running it these past several years. Rewrite the tax laws to make it unprofitable to evade taxation by offshoring jobs and setting up dummy corporations in the Cayman islands and similar tax havens.

Walmart's practice of buying solely on price irrespective of quality is why you don't find American made products any more. It is also the reason the US gets lead paint in their toys and melamine in medicines and foodstuffs. The Chinese producers are forced to cheapen their products to accommodate the prices Walmart will pay for their products. Moreover, Walmart's practices ensures that the Chinese manufacturers will exploit their workers in the worst way to meet Walmart's pricing demands.

Walmart gets away with this precisely because they drove out the "mom and pop" competition. Many Chinese companies have only one purchaser for their products, namely Walmart, since Walmart destroyed the other companies who would purchase from them.

Moreover, while prices at Walmart appear to be less relative to other sources, the huge debt this country has is undermining the value of the dollar, and so ALL prices are rising for all Americans. Moreover, the quality of imported goods, as retailers like Walmart further squeeze foreign manufacturers, is only going to get worse than it already is. Moreover, as more and more businesses fold due to competition from megacorporations like Walmart, we will have fewer jobs overall than Walmart will create by its business practices.

Most of this country's economic problems can be solved simply by levelling the economic playing field so that more companies can compete with the megacorporations such as Walmart. The ONLY long term solution is to take the necessary steps to bring jobs back to the U.S.

[earth mom]

25. The sad fact is that far too many people in this country can't afford to shop elsewhere.

The service economy Reagan & his disgusting band of rethugs set in motion has hobbled the buying power of millions of people over the years.


3rd World America-here we come! :argh:

[SoCalDem]

35. and yet

30 years ago, a single-earner family could afford a new car every few years..they could afford for Mom to raise her own kids, take those kids to the pediatrician, buy clothes & shoes for those kids, and eventually send them to college..these families could own their own home, take modest vacations, buy groceries, and they could even save money...and they had NO DEBT, except for their house or their car (2-3 yr financing)..No credits cards at all, except for maybe a Shell or Texaco card..no revolving credit though. ( a few stores had their own credit, but not for all customers)..

there were no discount stores..just local-owned stores..

When you pays $20 for a coat, that store owner deposited that money into the local bank, paid his employees with that money, and his family (and theirs) spent their wages at the local grocer, druggist, restaurant, etc, who all did the same thing.. The money CIRCULATED within the same community.

[earth mom]

60. I don't disagree with you. I would love for Walmart to cease to exist. nt

[kiva]

63. I don't know that your time frame works.

Thirty years ago was 1979, and the trend toward working mothers was well underway--over half of women with school-aged children were working, and nearly half of those with younger children were employed. I also think it's important to note that you are talking about middle- to upper middle-class families. Most working class families didn't buy new cars every few years--more like newer used cars--and sending their kids to college was generally a combination of scholarships and work.

Consumer habits have also changed, which has greatly benefited Walmart and all of the other big box stores.

[omega minimo]

37. you're right and 15 years too late. China owns the U.S. now

[Lucian]

41. Shut down Walmart then I'd be out of a job.

As well as the other 252 people who work there. It's literally the only place in this town where there are jobs available.

[Hugabear]

47. See post #30

It's a myth that without Walmart, jobs wouldn't exist. It's just that instead of having ONE giant employer, you'd have a few DOZEN smaller employers.

[Lucian]

58. Yeah, right.

Walmart created more jobs in this town than it destroyed. Before Walmart, there were two or three small stores, with a total of 30 employees among them all. 255 > 30.

[madmom]

62. I'm just curious Lucian, I used to work for Walmart and there seems to be

a consensus that Walmart pays low wages. My question to you is do you feel your wages are competitive as compared to other retailers in your area? I've stated before that,in my area, Walmart pays better than other retailers.

[Lucian]

66. The wages at Walmart are a little better than area retailers,

but they're still too low. The starting wage for my job is $7.70/hr. How I pay my bills is nothing short of a miracle.

[madmom]

68. Thank you. Yes I know wages are much to low, but what I was getting at is

people on this site are continually saying Walmart doesn't pay it's employees decent wages. I have been trying to make the point that they pay better than a lot of other retailers, so that is not a valid argument in which to hate Walmart.My point is we can't be selective about wages. We have to keep after ALL of them, because they will think because they are union they get a pass, or because people are not critical of them they must be doing it right.

[Yukari Yakumo]

42. Actually.. If you did your research, you'd find your argument to be complete bullshit.

Start here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGb9OLqsvV8

It continues here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzV0L-f1Fdk

[NM Independent]

45. I call bullshit on your call of bullshit.

Penn is a fucking puke and sorry piece of shit indistinguishable from that assholes hero Limpballs himself.


-Penn, when addressing the claim that many Walmart workers are paid so poorly that they qualify for state or federal aid...

"...many of whom are getting those evil fucking government benefits long before they started working at Walmart."


I wouldn't call that shitstain of a video "research." You have convinced me of nothing, other than your gullible to believe such fucking corporate whore tripe. Yes, I watched the whole thing, and it was an incredible waste of time.

FAIL

[inthebrain]

43. Why not just overthrow the capitalist system instead

Seriously.

It's a junk system that needs to be tossed and replaced with something better. It just encourages wage slavery which is what we have.

[Hugabear]

48. Walmart is a perfect example of why we need EFCA

If Walmart's employees were unionized, Walmart wouldn't be able to get away with paying them such shitty wages and crappy benefits.

[inthebrain]

55. Give Wal Mart to the workers

We've already paid hand over fist for the coporation in taxes and benefits.

[WVRICK13]

46. I Agree With The Sentiment, BUT

That would only cause more problems with the economy. First, we should identify all the goods made in America and determine if there is anything left to buy that is made here. If there is, we should put our money where our mouth is and buy all of those goods we can. As more American goods are purchased Walmart will shrink in response but they will have been replaced by other businesses. Second, if we had National Health Insurance small businesses could treat employees fairly. The increase in demand for American made products will act as an incentive for more companies to produce in America. Imagine if there were enough products made in America that you could open a store named AmericaMart where everything sold there is made in this country. Would you shop there exclusively? Would the increased demand for locally made products make them cheaper? I think it could work for one reason. It costs a lot of money to transport goods from across the ocean; fuel, labor, boats, docks etc. That offset should make more locally produced products competitive.

[WillowTree]

50. Ah yes. That's EXACTLY what this economy needs.

A million-and-a-half or so unskilled workers tossed onto the unemployment rolls with few or no options. That would fix everything.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

54. Shutting Down Walmart Would Be An Economic Disaster.

Thankfully, no one in government would take your ridiculous advice.

[NM Independent]

65. Oh, for the love of God, AGAIN.

Read the OP again, and this time pay attention. Then read the other two posts in this thread clarifying.


I DIDN'T MEAN THAT THE GOV'T SHOULD SHUT IT DOWN

I said people need to wake up, so they'll lose enough business to make it happen. That would happen SLOWLY, giving other business a chance to sprout up and welcome in those people.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

67. Irrelevant How It Gets Shut Down.

It would still be an economic disaster at this point.

It's called ignorant short-sighted thinking, and the idea is just dumb.

[NM Independent]

69. Anyone tell you in the last five minutes...

that your an insufferable stubborn prick?

I'm glad you disagree with me. That just tells me I'm on the right track.

[w4rma]

56. Unions and Tarriffs. Which would invigorate American manufacturing, also. (nt)

[Urban Prairie]

61. Wait

Until the other shoe drops, that being auto manufacturing in the US.

If Wal*Mart auto dealerships open up in the US in the next decade, selling Chinese and maybe Indian manufactured vehicles, what remains of the domestic auto industry (if any) will go first, then the Japanese, Korean, and German manufacturers will leave the right-to-work states. There is NO competing against millions of peasants willing to work for a few yuan a day.

I love the Repugs mantra of tax cuts tax cuts tax cuts...LMAO!! 2/3 of all foreign and domestic businesses paid no federal taxes in the past decade, due to loopholes in the tax code that leaks revenue like a sieve. No tax cuts for business is going to stop or slow the massive outsourcing and offshoring of US jobs anyway. It was okay when blue collar jobs began to be offshored in the 80s, but when the white collar jobs began to be outsourced as well in the 90..uh-oh, NOW there is a problem!!

[.... callchet ....]

70. Wal MArt is just a result of our policies.

Our policies let the other countries low bid us on everything. We financed every economy in the world with our policies. To start we need a massive progressive tax on the over $250k. We taught every country in the world to industrialize. Now we need to re/invest in the USA/

[The2ndWheel]

71. That's like saying dissolve the United States into 50 individual states

[NM Independent]

72. I never thought...

that I would see this much negativity towards an anti-Walmart thread in a community such as DU.

Shit, let's just let them get bigger and turn us all into freaking serfs beholding to the company store.

If anyone hasn't noticed, Walmart is fairing pretty damn well in this recession because of their cheap foreign crap. They don't even get their produce from local farmers. Now, how jacked up is that?

Whatever. It's "just business" right?