A little while ago, I saw some moron flying a huge confederate flag in the bed of his pickup truck.

[Cyrano]

This is an issue that never seems to go away.

Some call it "A symbol of their 'Southern Heritage.'" Well, let's just cut through this kind of crap to the truth. What the hell is "Southern Heritage?" The answer is simple and obvious -- slavery.

Many blacks and whites see this rag as nothing more than an American swastika. And anyone flying this flag is nothing more than a knuckle-dragger making a statement of ignorance, bigotry and just plain hatred.

This particular idiot is driving around in Palm Beach county which, for the most part, is moderate to liberal. It's my opinion that, within a few days, someone will call him on it which will lead to a very ugly confrontation.

So my question is, is there anyone out there who disagrees with my interpretation of this despicable rag as "A symbol of Southern Heritage?"

On edit: I was enough of a fool to think that we were through with this kind of crap, but somehow, it never seems to end.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. "Southern Heritage"

[xultar]

2. Yes, That is it. EXACTLY.

[sakabatou]

40. Way to go, South...

[RPM]

134. The confederate flag - a symbol of TREASON

why do they hate america?

[Zhade]

166. That "heritage' was racism and slavery.

Impossible to get away from the racism of that flag.

[The Straight Story]

I do think some might disagree with you on it:

Black man marches with Confederate flag

Home > News > Black man marches with Confederate flag

North Carolina resident says he's 'coming here to deal with injustice'

By JOHN HUOTARI
July 1, 2005

H.K. Edgerton has been called an Uncle Tom, crazy and a fool. But that's all right with him.

Edgerton, who is black, is carrying a Confederate battle flag by foot and car this week from Johnson City to Maryville. He says Jesus Christ was called many names, also.

"I'm coming here to deal with injustice," Edgerton said Thursday as he sat down to eat lunch at Fort Dickerson Park in South Knoxville. "The only legalized discrimination taking place in America right now is against my Confederate flag."

Edgerton, an Asheville, N.C., resident and former chapter president of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People there, plans to carry the flag into Maryville today, protesting a possible ban on the flag at school events there.

The Maryville ban, which could be approved on second reading July 25, is part of a new comprehensive safety policy, said Mike Dalton, Maryville schools director.

.....

"The battle flag of the Confederate States of America was used in the (Civil) War and had nothing to do with slavery," said Ron Jones, SCV Camp 87 commander. "It's just honored by people who have ancestors who fought for the South. It's a symbol of Southern heritage."

Edgerton said black and white troops fought under the flag during the Civil War.

By marching with the Confederate battle flag down the highway, he said he's begun a discussion of what the banner stands for.

http://www.flagwire.com/index.php?doc=28&aid=688

[Cyrano]

13. Mr. Edgerton is either an idiot or demented IMO.

[MADem]

14. I read that story, and I can think of is Dave Chappelle's character

Clayton Bigsby--the blind racist who doesn't know he's Black...

[Frank Cannon]

174. One of the funniest Chappelle skits EVER

I still laugh just thinking about it.

[Brewman_Jax]

46. Just because some idiot black guy

flies it, doesn't change anything.

[zbdent]

71. funny ... WWJL?

Who would Jesus lynch ...

[stranger]

146. flags: the ultimate symbols of mindless tribalism

I dont care what kind of flag it is-its a rag
which just makes intelligent people act stupid.

jmo

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

3. Southern Heritage - Magnolias, Scarlett O'hara, lynchings and genocide.

Sumthin' to be right proud of.

[SoyCat]

27. Sorry, that has nothing to do with my southern heritage--nor does the Confederate flag.

[alittlelark]

147. Uh, .... what exactly IS your 'southern heritage'?

[alittlelark]

157. Could you answer my question?

[SoyCat]

158. Ooh, bitchy a little? I'm dearly sorry I wasn't available to answer your question sooner!

The things I consider *my* heritage are cultural and in no way filled with hate. Music, food, and customs comprise *my heritage*.

And just for the record, I'm white and black.

[zanne]

160. Then why can't you come up with a different flag?

You could represent your "heritage" and avoid implying racism with a different design. You've had more than enough time to do that since the Civil War.

[SoyCat]

162. Why exactly should *I* come up with another flag? *I* said that flag doesn't represent my heritage.

Would you like me to blame you for everything bad that people from your area or ethnic group has ever done? Well?


I'm done with this bull shit.

[zanne]

163. I don't feel the need for a Union flag...

Why do you think that is?

[Zhade]

167. The "heritage" of the Confederacy was racism and slavery.

Claiming you're of mixed race on an anonymous message board doesn't erase that fact.

[RPM]

135. TRAITORS all

The entire white popluation of the south should have been tried and hung after the war.

Just like whomever leaked Plame's name.

[Big Pappa]

173. So

all the white children and women and the old should have been rounded up and disposed of? Nice. BTW we have a flag over the capitol right now that flew while slavery was "legal".

[Cabcere]

4. Not exactly, but

when I was younger I saw a bumper sticker with a Confederate flag that said "Heritage Not Hate," and my best friend and I thought that was really cool and what it was all about. We were probably about eight then, and the area where we live is EXTREMELY conservative. My friend and her brother were also members of the Children of the Confederacy, so I guess that colored our opinions a little too. So I can sort of see that side of the coin, because I used to feel like that, in a very naive sort of way. Now, however, I'm more on your side of this issue, and I believe that the Confederate flag should be remembered as a part of our history, but not necessarily celebrated - in other words, I think it should be a picture in a history textbook instead of a bumper sticker or decoration. (I hope that makes sense - I'm not very good at getting my points across sometimes.) :)

[Bigmack]

5. 620,000 Americans died in the Civil War...

Foolish me, I thought the war was over and the rebel flag disgraced.

Now I find that part of Hiway 99 in Washington State is the Robert E. Lee Highway.
There are thousands of examples of this kind of revisionist hero worship.

I'm not South-bashing. I'm Confederacy-bashing. Lee and the rest were Traitors to the United States and its constitution. The flag has no place in the 21st century.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

9. not hardly.

the Springpatch Musee of Abe Lincoln hath been studying it rather closer.
the numbers are far more numbing.
Try 1Mill+.

Of course, they include the deaths of hundreds of thousands of flu and other disease, while they were held in Union and Confederate prisons. But the battle deaths alone were over a million.

[Bigmack]

76. Hey... let's not argue over a paltry...

couple of hundred thousand dead. Kinda like Iraq.

It was a bunch!

[Manifestor_of_Light]

127. Know about Andersonville, GA?

Andersonville, GA, was the home of an infamous Confederate P.O.W. camp. There is a play called "The Andersonville Trial" which I saw on PBS many decades ago, which had a young William Shatner as the prosecutor, I believe, in it. It was a dramatization of the trial of William Wirz, warden of the camp.

According to Wiki, 32,000 prisoners were living there during its 14 month existence, and about 13,000 prisoners died from disease, lack of potable water, etc. There were no barracks, just open air. This was the first modern war crimes trials.

[aikoaiko]

67. I think your interpretation is simplistic. nt (whoops. this message was meant for the OP)

[Bigmack]

75. Yup.... it is...

so is flying the flag of a long-dead rebellion that is a symbol of many things this country abhors.

[aikoaiko]

81. Sorry, I somehow posted in response to you when I meant to reply to the OP.

But I do agree with you mostly. except that symbols, even ones once attached to long-dead rebellion, can take on new meaning.

[nosmokes]

6. someone should tell him the south lost. n/t

[MADem]

7. I think the thing belongs in a museum.

And I do agree that it symbolizes slavery.

We can't burn the thing though, we need to see it for what it is.

It's an issue that never goes away because the GOP always brings it back up during election years. It's part and parcel of their "southern strategy."

It works thusly: Cull out the racist nitwits, herd them into a group, tell them that their right to fly a symbol of hatred is being taken away, and next, they'll take away yer toothless wimmen, gol-darn-it!!!! And, after getting them all exorcised and excited, they're lined up to vote for the bozo who promises them they can keep their stinky little symbols of shame! Screw a livable minimum wage!!! That's not important. Decent jobs? They can take a back seat. Health care? That's what Rite-Aid's over the counter stuff is for. And most of all...who NEEDS teeth???

Rally round the things that are REEEEEEALLLLY important, like prayer in school and waving symbols of slavery!! Yee fucking HAW!!!

It works for them. I have no idea why, but it does. Again, and again, and again. It just shows you that there are stupid people, easily led, in this land of ours.

[Lord Byron]

8. What about Skynyrd and the Allman Brothers?

: )

[greyl]

10. Here's one on a golf cart in Virginia

No, it hasn't gone away. I know someone who gets all 20 nails done with confederate flags on July 4th.

[MADem]

15. Ahh, George Allen, having a quick round there, eh??? NT

[greyl]

19. hehe, you remember that post? :) nt

[The Straight Story]

11. interpretation is often in the eye of the interpreter

I think it is sometimes presumptuous to project someones beliefs to others based on something like a symbol. IE - we don't know why someone happens to like the flag (or flag on bumper sticker, etc) - we know why WE don't like it and why we would not display it, and so we decide that that person must have the same beliefs as to why - and are therefore racist, etc.

The people I used to know back in my day who liked the flag, and displayed it, were not racist in the slightest. To them it was about how much they hated our government and it was a sign of rebellion (and I would note several of these folks were in the local militia, which was run at the time by a black guy who has since moved on and started what I think is called the Sierra Times).

We declare something to mean what we think it should mean - and then expect others to follow suit or we consider them either racist or ignorant for not keeping up with our views. Seems like the old liberal elite snob thing :)

[blonndee]

16. But those who oh-so-proudly display it are WELL AWARE

that many, many people (not limited to "liberal elite snobs") find it a reprehensible and painful symbol of slavery and racism, and their decision to display it regardless speaks volumes (to me at least) about the image they wish to convey and the statement they are making to others by using such a symbol, not to mention their utter disregard for those who might be hurt by it.

[greyl]

18. No, not all aware. The woman with the confederate nails is totally unaware.

She thinks it will be met with approval by everyone she comes in contact with. She really doesn't have much of a clue.

[blonndee]

20. Now that is sad.

This is 2007, right?

[zanne]

159. YES!

I get tired of reading, even on these boards, about "differences in perception" when it comes to the Confederate flag. Those who fly it are In-Your-Face rightwingers who want a fight, but also want to say that it's about their "Southern Heritage". Bullshit. It's about Right-Wing ideology. Maybe if more people actually called them on it, they wouldn't fly it. It's a symbol of hatred, period.

[greyl]

17. That's a thoughtful post. However...

The people I'm personally aware of who fly that flag are racist idiots. It is they who have erroneous presumptions.

[MADem]

25. So, they weren't racist--they were STUPID, then.

It's not a question of considering them "racist or ignorant"--see, they ARE either racist or ignorant. And that isn't a "view"--that's just plain fact. One can research the history of the symbol and come to no other conclusion that it is a representation of a failed government that was both racist and dehumanizing, unless one chooses to remain willfully ignorant.

And that's not being a "liberal elite slob"--that's being EDUCATED (unless some think that being educated is a "liberal" thing, in which case, I give the fuck up!).

If you don't know the meaning of something, don't flaunt it about and then get self-righteous, offended, and shirty when called on the behavior. It's as stupid as the nitwits who get Chinese character tattoos, thinking they mean "enlightenment" or "strength" or some happy horseshit, when in fact it means "Men's Lavatory" or "This Side Up." That poor clown is going to have that tattoo modified toute suite when he realizes he's been had--and these bozos with their "heritage" argument HAVE been educated, so all I can conclude is that, if they don't ditch the symbols quickly and shamefacedly, they long for the days when they could dehumanize their fellow beings because of their race.

I can't support that attitude or that lousy argument at all, ever. It's total BS.

[The Straight Story]

29. But who assigns meaning to something?

That is where the liberal elite thing came from (their perception of liberals telling them what something they have should mean to them because of what it means to someone else).

[MADem]

56. Oh, please. Who assigned meaning to the swastika? Hitler did, even though it was used in

Russian, Chinese and Indian culture for eons. General Lee and all those plantation owners who funded and prosecuted a breakaway war while holding human beings hostage in slavery assigned "meaning" to their flag with their actions. And those actions may be old-time, but they are NOT forgotten.

Come on. There is a point where you just cannot "see the viewpoint of the other person" and assign it equal validity. Slavery is wrong, and that wrong trumps any bullshit, late-out-of-the-gate arguments about "heritage." You can't divorce the slavery from the heritage, and thus, the symbol is one of shame. And for people to try to pass that off as "liberal elitism" is bullshit. If that's liberal elitism, then the OPPOSITE of it is "racist ignorance or obfuscation."

Parsing like that, trying to tease out the "nice bits" from the ugly truth, and separate the things that cannot be separated because they are united in history, is really approaching "No Holocaust" and "No Armenian Genocide" territory. It's not quite there, but it's on the same road.

That flag is CERTAINLY about hoop skirts, plantations and "The Land of Cotton"--and that land was propagated and sustained with the blood, sweat and tears of slaves--the entire society rested on their overworked shoulders. When you look at Hitler's symbol, he didn't intend it to be all about murder, death and ovens, to him that Swastika was all about blonde, buxom smiling women and muscular, tall blue eyed men, and a regime that would last for a thousand years. But the truth is, it's not about that, today, is it? We KNOW better, with the sad exception of a few racist nuts who long for that sort of society to return to this earth, for their own twisted reasons.

What that swastika is about now, no matter what it was about way back when, is Jews roasting in ovens. And that Stars-n-Bars is about slavery. Plain and simple.

You can't pick and choose the nice aspects of the symbol and paper over complaints with justification that "That's NOT what they MEEEEAAAAN" when they display the thing. Well, you CAN, if you want to insult, denigrate, and offend those to whom the symbol is repugnant in the extreme.

The argument doesn't fly. It demonstrates willful ignorance, at best, and closet racism, at midpoint, and overt racism, at worst.

[Spearman87]

60. I'd like for that to be true, but we let new meanings be assigned

to terms nowadays. I hate the term "nigger", and I'm pretty sure of who originally assigned the meaning of it and the original oppressive uses. Yet it is now "ok" for Blacks to assign their own new meanings to variations on the term, and it's apparently acceptable for casual use by Blacks as well as by comics and entertainters. Many of the confederate flag bearers are only doing the same thing. I don't like either one, though the flag bothers me less than the epithet.

[MADem]

65. No offense, but that's a horrible twisting of the actual facts of the matter.

The "knicker" word (I don't care for the actual one, myself, so I will use that as a faux substitution) was taken over by Americans of African ancestry in an effort to NEUTRALIZE it, as a class of people who were once OPPRESSED, in order to deny oppressors the "power" of the word. That sensibility is being rethought, nowadays--the feeling in many quarters is "OK, the point's been made--now let's move on to putting that word in the 'Ugly and Mean Events' chapter of the history books."

The people waving the racist flag were never the "oppressed." They were the oppressors, or, more properly, they belong to the same race as the original oppressors, they identify with them, and thus think that had things not changed, they'd be plantation owners like Scarlett's daddy instead of living in a leaky old single wide trailer.

They aren't waving their little flags to fight back against the fact that they were downtrodden and abused--they're doing it because all of them think (most incorrectly) that they had ancestors who lived the good life on plantations, and that they've been denied a heritage of sipping mint juleps on the verandah by a bunch of liberal buttinski northerners and uppity "KNICKERS" who belong toiling in the fields. They just want their land of cotton, old times there are not forgotten lifestyle back--a lifestyle most of them did NOT descend from, even if their families lived in the area for centuries.

They'll never get that lifestyle for themselves, where they can have power over other humans, but waving that flag is a way of childishly getting a bit of revenge against those who they believe stole their "inheritance" -- a way of saying "Knicker, Knicker, KNICKER!!!!!!" (in angry, frustrated KRAMER fashion) without actually having to speak the word.

[Spearman87]

72. No offense taken. But many young Blacks (and old)

do not have neutralization on their minds when using 'nigger' or the variations or it, any more than the lady who gets 10 nails done as confederate flags is trying to antagonize Blacks. Most are just oblivious and using it out of habit. Come on, that's academic talk. A few Black elites will tell you that, but that's not on the minds of the rank and file. And how long does it take to neutralize a word anyway? It's offensive, ignorant and stupid, period. But we allow them to redefine it as homeboy talk and nonoffensive. Like I said, I don't like the Con Flag. And I do wonder if those people are racist when I see it. But I would never jump to that conclusion without at least first engaging them in a conversation to find out what the flag means to them.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

78. Do you think black people are stupid?

Do you think black people don't know what the word "nigger" means? Do you think black people who use the word mean it in the same context that white racists do?

[Spearman87]

165. I think many who use the word with blithe disregard

to its negative history have chosen to give it their own cultural meaning, within Black social contexts. MADem's argument, in the post I originally responded to, was that Hitler assigned the meaning to the swastika (it didn't matter that there were more benign meanings), and that

<<"General Lee and all those plantation owners who funded and prosecuted a breakaway war while holding human beings hostage in slavery assigned "meaning" to their flag with their actions. And those actions may be old-time, but they are NOT forgotten">>

If that's the argument, then my point was this: Did not evil, hateful southern bigots define the meaning of 'nigger', in the same way? There are many Whites who hate the rebel flag. There are many Blacks who hate 'nigger'. For those who like those things, I don't look at it as a question of intelligence. It was whether we as outsiders are in a position to say whether other people can use old words and symbols in a new context. MADem argued "no", when it comes to the rebel flag. I said that we DO, in fact, allow groups to assign new, modern meanings to old taboos, and used 'nigger' as a perfect example, rooted in the same sad era. I think you are going on a tangent to shift the argument onto some kind of ugly inference about Black intelligence.

[MADem]

86. I disagree. I think it's not the first thing that comes to a youngster's mind

in daily usage, but if you sat someone down and ASKED why they used the term, they would talk about neutralization, about OWNING the word that is about them.

There have been more than a few public figures who have given dissertations, both comedic and academic, about this matter. It's not an arcane subject, even to those who aren't particularly academic. Hell, Richard PRYOR did a riff on why he wouldn't use the 'knicker' word anymore. And that was twenty or more years ago.

I have to ask, would you ask a guy flying a Nazi flag what it "means" to them? Would you assume they had no thought or care as to the history of it? Would you make excuses for them?

" Awww, poor little Jackboot, there, he didn't KNOW...he didn't KNOW about the symbolism!!! He didn't MEAN any harm, there!!! He wasn't TRYING to insult anyone...."

I mean, really. This isn't an esoteric issue--it's dragged out every fucking national election cycle. It's a tired old race-baiting ploy. America HAS been educated on the meaning of the flag. They understand that it offends, and the purpose of displaying it is to OFFEND. It's not a subject for confusion, or one about which anyone can claim ignorance. Thirty years ago, maybe, but not now, not today.

[Spearman87]

168. Nazi flag, no,I can't think of any reason to make excuses

for that. The rebel flag, I'm willing to leave the door open, since I've heard some more positive reasons or meanings behind flying in than anything I can associate with Nazism. I wish I could respond in more depth/reflect a bit more, but I'm in a rush and want to at least look at three posts and respond if needbe.

[Spearman87]

169. PS--You might be right. I hope you are

...as far as youngsters having a little more thought behind the usage than they did when I was growing up. Maybe there's a bit more cultural awareness nowadays than when I was growing up in the 70s.

[blonndee]

110. "We ALLOW them to redefine it"???

Holy shit! :wtf:

[Spearman87]

170. Yes. Obviously. I have seen no protest marches

or calls for firings of comedians, or calls for barring them from work over the use of the word. We would if it was coming out of mouth of that Senator from Mississipi, or from New Gingritch. Finally, I think there MAY be lately a new awareness of the negativity of it dawning in Black leadership circles. But they sure didn't care or at least put it on the back burner on the local community levels, for a long time.

[zanne]

161. Why don't northerners fly the Union flag?

Perhaps we're not trying to prove something?

[Webster Green]

26. Nope!

The Good Ol' Boys who display it like that, in the bed of their pick-up truck are, without exception...knuckle-draggers.

I know them well. I know what kind of beer they drink, what kind of music they like, and what they would like to do to people like me if they they thought they could get away with it.

[Madspirit]

91. swastikas...

Swastikas used to mean something else too. So the fuck what. They and the confederate flag symbolize some of the worst of the worst of the worst, in the history of the whole wide world and cause terrible pain for many people. You can't detach the thing from it's meaning. I would wager that NO ONE who flies a confederate flag doesn't know fully and exactly what it represents...the HORROR it represents...to many people. That's more important than some fake claim of innocence and honoring one's past. That is a crock of crap. It's not a past that deserves to be honored. You cannot regain innocence any more than you can regain virginity. The confederate flag MEANS racism. Because this one black dude is an insane whack-o doesn't change that. 8% of George Wallace's votes were black. So what? It doesn't mean he wasn't a racist pig.
If I knew a symbol hurt as many people as the confederate flag hurts, I would NEVER want to fly it. Anyone who does is either insane-o, and not in the good way, or a jerk-o.
Madspirit

[Hippo_Tron]

93. My good friend actually devised a litmus test for this

Judah P Benjamin was Secretary of War for the confederacy and also happened to be Jewish. Since today's racist KKK types also tend to be anti-semitic, many people brush this fact aside.

In determining a racist from a confederate enthusiast his test is simply ask the question "So what do you think of Judah P Benjamin?"
If their response is "Who the hell is Judah P Benjamin?" then chances are they are flying the flag for racist intent instead of enthusiasm for the Confederacy.

I'm not sure how well this litmus test works but I thought it was pretty funny.

[Prophet 451]

12. It's more aesthetically pleasing?

Granted, I'm not American but I always thought the Confederate flag was better looking than the current one. That's saying nothing of the ideas behind them.

I actually don't think it's so much about racism these days. Oh, that's probably there but I think these days, it's more to do with the fact that Southerners often see themselves as "more American" than those in the north. Certainly, the ideas currently ruling the country, anti-intellectualism, radical neoconservatism, radical Christianity, anti-science, anti-feminism, an aggressive foreign policy, protestation of victimhood regardless of reality, all of those either started out in the South or are identified most strongly with the South and I think it's that attitude far more than slavery that such people are idntifying with.

The irony of course is that the South is pretty much running the US these days. Much of the voting power is from the South, the last ten Presidents have been from the South or Mid-West (that's another reason Kerry couldn't get elected, he's from the North) and those ideas and attitudes outlined above are now running the country and dominate the mindset of those in power (or did until the Midterms). Bush, Cheney, DeLay, et al are all devotees of that very Southern philosophy where you might not know what 2+2 makes but you're still better than Yankees because you go to church on Sunday and have dirt under your fingernails.

[Cyrano]

24. I couldn't agree more with your analysis.

Damn, I did the original post just before I had to go out. But I'd like to see this thread keep going. I'll answer any and all comments later.

In the meantime, 451, I think your posting is thoughtful and accurate.

[MADem]

36. The south has jumped the shark. The new power is the west.

And it IS about racism. Make no mistake. The flag is CODE for 'the good old days' when segregation was a way of life and 'the White Man' was king.

I don't know where you get that "more American" argument, but it's wrong. The Revolution STARTED in the northeast, not in Arkansas or Florida. We feel "plenty American" up this way. In fact, we celebrate PATRIOT'S DAY (One if by land, and two if by sea, and I on the opposite shore will be) here in MA, when the rest of the country doesn't.

I'm guessing you weren't intending to insult us up here in the northeast, but you did. I live in a liberal state that makes military pensions tax-FREE...what's more "American" than that?

[Prophet 451]

53. You've misunderstood me

I suspect I didn't make myself clear so my apologies.

I'm not saying that the South is more authentically American, I'm saying that Southerners often see themselves as more American. I'm not talking about the reality of the situation (which is much as you describe), I'm talking about the South's perception of itself.

Finally, I'm sure there is an element of racism to the love of the Confederate flag. All I'm saying is that I think the appeal is wider than pure racism.

[MADem]

59. I think that's changing, though. In fact, the last elections demonstrate it.

Virginia has a Democratic governor, AND a Democratic Senator, who won against all odds--his opponent, George Feeeelix Macaca Allen, was SUPPOSED to be "the one to beat" in the GOP presidential primaries. While the GOP still has the south overall, the trend is plainly against them: http://southernstudies.org/facingsouth/2006/11/democrats-gain-in-southern-state.asp

...Out of the battles for control of 26 house and senate chambers in the South, Democrats strengthened their position in 10; Republicans only did so in 3. There was no change in 10, and 3 others were influenced by independent candidates.

* Democrats saw their biggest gains in Southern state house races. Key states: Florida (+7 house seats for Democrats); Kentucky (+5); North Carolina (+3); and West Virginia (+4). Republican gains were small; the largest was the GOP's 2-seat pickup in the Alabama senate.

* Altogether, Democrats gained 26 seats in Southern state legislatures, and Republicans lost 20 seats in the 13 states.

* Democrats strengthened their position in 8 Southern states; in 5 of those, significantly so (AR, FL, KY, NC and WV). The GOP only strengthened its position in Alabama....

[Prophet 451]

63. True

The pendulum of public opinion is definately swinging away from them. What will be interesting is if that persists after Chimpy's term of office ends (hopefully, through impeachment) or if the South will return to being a GOP stronghold i.e. is the reaction against the Republican party or against Chimpy personally? Should be interesting to watch regardless.

There's part of me hoping Texas goes ahead and secedes again. The rest of the country would probably be wise to let them go this time.

[mitchtv]

124. Secession? hell

Expulsion!

[jody]

21. IMO those who fly the Confederate Flag do so to get people riled up. Apparently they succeeded. n/t

[Jackpine Radical]

22. How do you know he was a moron?

Could have been an imbecile, or perhaps even an idiot.

[Tyo]

23. It's part of Southern history......

But some history is better reflected upon and learned from than celebrated.

When people display the Stars and Bars they are being provocative and they know it. They are telling the world that they haven't quite accepted the verdict of history regarding slavery and oppression and they do not recognize personhood of black people.

Southern heritage? If that's really the best symbol of Southern heritage that they can come up with then the South really has no heritage in any positive sense.

[piedmont]

33. I think you mean to say "battle flag," not Stars and Bars nt

[Tyo]

42. I think you're right. The Stars and Bars was the other one. Thanks. n/t

[piedmont]

49. You're welcome. A common mistake. nt

[MADem]

58. Also popularly called the Southern Cross, now that I think about it.

It contains stars and bars, and for that reason many use the term interchangeably, though technically they aren't the same.

I'd wager there are more than a few southerners, who, when asked to choose the stars and bars from a series of images, would choose the battle flag/southern cross flag, not the one that looks like a mini-US flag. And these would be people who were all excited about keeping their important historical symbol, too...

[piedmont]

61. Some say it's actually the Confederate navy jack, based on proportions

this site has illustrations of them all:

http://www.usflag.org/history/confederatestarsandbars.html

I don't know anything about the group or its affiliations-- they just have a good collection of images of CSA flags.

[MADem]

120. The size IS about right, it's square and would be the right size for the stern of a ship NT

[Manifestor_of_Light]

123. A very interesting observation about the Six Flags of Texas

I have noticed that at the rest station on I-10, on the Texas-Louisiana border, where they fly the Six Flags of Texas, they use the First Confederate Battle Flag, presumably because it is the only one of the Confederate flags that does not have the commonly recognized "Stars and Bars" contained in it.

It has 7 stars in a circle on a blue field in the upper left quadrant, with red and white stripes. Too much like the U.S. Flag to be distinct.

[piedmont]

129. I think you have your Confederate flag names confused

The "Stars and Bars" flag is the one you are describing. It was the first official flag of the Confederacy. The Battle Flag is the one with the blue cross (with stars) on a red field. Go to this link and have a look:

http://www.usflag.org/history/confederatestarsandbars.html

Study hard-- there will be a pop quiz later!

[Clevenger]

28. The Confederate States were a sovereign nation, invaded by the United States...

As with Iraq and Iran, we can argue about the morality of the Confederate States, but the CSA were a sovereign nation, crushed by US imperialism. This is a point which is often lost in discussions about the "Civil War".

Any nation which has been under Uncle Sam's boot is bound to carry hard feelings about it for many generations, so it's hard for me to blame southerners for wanting to hang onto the Confederate Battle Flag.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

35. So was Nazi Germany.

They had a symbol too. Meant pretty much the same thing.

[Clevenger]

37. So you're in favor of the US invading certain countries? n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

38. Yes.

Nazi Germany, and the South.

You?

[Clevenger]

44. I'm not an imperialist, and I don't have a "policeman" mentality, so no, not me. n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

45. So you're saying we should have left the Nazis alone.

OK. Gotcha.

[Clevenger]

50. I'm saying we should concentrate on the fascists in this country first. n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

54. Fascists, eh?

You mean like the ones flying confederate flags?

[Clevenger]

87. I mean the fascists who want to tell people what symbols they can or can't display. n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

88. Who said anything about not being able to display it?

You don't seem terribly concerned about the fascists of the white supremacist variety.

Why would you be concerned about a type of fascist that you just made up?

[Clevenger]

95. Who's the greater danger: A guy who has a Confederate flag on his bumper...

...or George W. Bush, President of the "Union"?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

98. Clev...

They're pretty much one and the same.

[Clevenger]

104. Amazing how some so-called liberals make sweeping statements about groups of individuals. n/t

[Change has come]

109. My guess is the bigot.

You know, *'s base.

[JohnLocke]

144. Umm...one votes for the other.

[Madspirit]

121. not telling anyone what they can do.

Just saying that anyone who does fly a confederate flag or displays a swastika, which started as an innocent symbol, is an asshole. It represents too much pain for too many people. So fly or display what you want. It's good to be forewarned when approaching scary pigs.
Madspirit

[MADem]

69. No they weren't. They broke away from the union, and the union wasn't having it.

The definition of sovereign back then was "Whoever has the most power AND can hang on to their turf"--rather like the sheiks of today in the Middle East. See the AMERICAN REVOLUTION as an example.

The South didn't have enough power to break away AND hang on to their turf. And that's not even addressing the termination of the state of slavery, which was a long overdue thing to come out of all of that bloodshed.

But really...last time I checked, Iraq and Iran were never part of the United States of America. So your analogy about imperialism is completely ludicrous. Or perhaps you have no concept what the word actually means.

You're either being deliberately obtuse about history, or you're sadly ignorant.

Or perhaps you're hoping to stir the pot? Next time, try a lighter touch.

[Clevenger]

90. The States ratifed the US Constitution acting in the capacity of sovereign nations...

...which means that the South was within its rights, as a confederation of sovereign States, to seceed from the United States.

[MADem]

96. Again, you only had "rights" back in those days IF you could hold on to your turf

See "Revolution, American"--an example where the ploy succeeded. And not due to any declarations all by themselves, either--they had to defend their declaration of independence with their blood and their citizenry.

The South threw down, as the colonists did, but they couldn't deliver. They ran out of blood and citizenry before they were able to succeed, now, didn't they?

"Rights" as I have pointed out, came out of the barrel of a gun. Rule of law was trumped by force of arms. It still is, today, in many instances. And it isn't a question of liking that or not, that is how it is.

Not having anything approaching true citizen representation back in those days, it wasn't as though the population had any input into the matter, anyway. So it's rather difficult, through the lens of history, to justify, rule of law notwithstanding, any "rights." You wonder how the non-landowners, the negroes, the women, and other nonenfranchised people might have felt about the issue--but then, their voices weren't counted.

[alittlelark]

156. OK - they tried - and FAILED.

Slavery is soooo 1850's ......

[alittlelark]

148. Uh, yeah.... whatever... they signed on, got protection....

and decided they did not want to REALLY join a country after it was against slavery.:silly: :crazy:

[piedmont]

30. Wow. One sighting of a confederate flag in Florida is all it takes...

to bring out DUers spouting about how ignorant, toothless, racist etc. etc. white southerners are, and calling the Confederate battle flag the "Stars and Bars" flag as though they knew what in the hell it is.

[Tyo]

34. Oh my. n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

43. Are you denying...

that this particular southerner is an ignorant racist?

[piedmont]

48. I know nothing of this person-- gender, region of origin, or beliefs.

By the way, I think the phrase "ignorant racist" gives racists too much credit. Many of them are not ignorant at all, and can't use "ignorance" as an excuse.

[Tyo]

52. I don't think anyone has said anything about "toothless"

And I think people are talking about those Southerners who ARE racist and proud of it, not that all Southerners are. Oh, and thank you for correcting me on the Stars and Bars thing. I should have known that. :-)

[piedmont]

57. Yeah, they did.

From post #7:
It works thusly: Cull out the racist nitwits, herd them into a group, tell them that their right to fly a symbol of hatred is being taken away, and next, they'll take away yer toothless wimmen, gol-darn-it!!!! And, after getting them all exorcised and excited, they're lined up to vote for the bozo who promises them they can keep their stinky little symbols of shame! Screw a livable minimum wage!!! That's not important. Decent jobs? They can take a back seat. Health care? That's what Rite-Aid's over the counter stuff is for. And most of all...who NEEDS teeth???

Sure, some are limiting their remarks to JUST the racists, but even in that they feel the need to bring the old stereotypes (see above).

[Tyo]

62. Okay. As you might have guessed from my original post....

I'm not a huge fan of all things Southern, but post number 7 and others that might be similar are over the top. I thought I was kind of borderline. You are in my opinion showing great restraint.

[MADem]

79. You apparently only skimmed the post, and did not actually read it

if you thought it was borderline. Go back and read it. It does NOT insult "all southerners." It discusses, plainly, a SUBSET of people. Only someone with an inferiority complex, or someone spoiling for a fight, or who thinks they can see inside my thought processes and "assumes" they know what I think, could come to that wrongheaded conclusion.

But hey, reading is fundamental. See my post below for further elucidation.

[Tyo]

128. Don't condescend to me. You obviously have a few reading issues yourself.

And while you are right that reading is fundamental it helps to have something worth reading in the first place. You kinda let us down there with #7 and you obviously didn't quite get my post either. Anyway, now that you and piedmont seem to have made peace with each other all is well with the world and my partner and I are going to dinner. Bye.

[MADem]

138. Again, if you think that, you didn't read it. NT

[MADem]

77. Uh, reading is fundamental.

The "some" you are talking about is ME. You take issue with something I say, don't prance around--come right at me.

And if you aren't a racist nitwit, CULLED OUT of the general population (go look that phrase up, now, why doncha?) then the remark was NOT directed at you, or any other southerner, or person from any part of the nation, for that matter, who is NOT a racist nitwit, with or without toothless wimmenfolk.

The description refers clearly to ignorant people who can be cut from the greater herd with exhortations that appeal to their ignorant or racist mindset. They DO exist, and they exist in places other than the south. My comments referred specifically to a SUBSET of the population, not the population as a whole.

If I wanted to insult "all southerners," I would have used the broad brush term "All southerners." But I didn't, because I know ALL southerners don't feel that way. In fact, most don't. See, I know that--yet you didn't read what I wrote, and you get up on your high horse and falsely accuse me of insulting all southerners when I did no such thing.

But go ahead and take offense, and falsely accuse ME of stereotyping (you might want to look in the mirror) even when the very post you use to "prove" your point doesn't support your assertion, if it makes your day.

[piedmont]

100. And so are writing skills.

The "some" you are talking about is ME. You take issue with something I say, don't prance around--come right at me.
The poster I responded to questioned whether "toothless" had come up in this thread. I pointed it out. That's not prancing around.

You can play the "Boo-hoo! You mis-understood me on PURPOSE!" game all you want. Your explanation of part of the GOP southern strategy hit up all the ugly stereotypes of southerners: ignorant, racist, and toothless. I did understand you were talking about a sub-set of white southerners-- but in talking about that sub-set you dragged up the stereotypes that historically are applied to ALL white southerners in an effort to paint them in an even more negative light. You used those region-based stereotypes in an effort to insult that sub-set of racists. It's just like if you were talking about Jewish people who are racist and brought up Jewish stereotypes in denouncing them.
Perhaps you did not mean to do this. It appears you do understand that most southerners are not racist nit-wits. But reading the paragraph in question gave this reasonable, careful reader the impression that you had bought into those stereotypes.

[MADem]

111. I would have preferred that you address me directly, rather than

take a swipe at me in the body of a post far removed from my original. That's just not the way to debate.

I'm not boohooing. I'm stating plainly that I said what I said, I meant what I said, and I am not the one who is suggesting any stereotypes--you are. There are toothless idiots in trailer parks all over this nation, the south doesn't own those people. Get out more, you'll see them in every state, from Maine to California.

BTW, that "southern strategy" of the GOP goes BEYOND the south, and has for many election cycles for the last almost four decades. Since Nixon, really, when Nixon's clowns (who originated the term) figured out that they weren't going to get the "negro" vote and decided to play to the racists in the south in an effort to secure those electoral votes. Since that time, the strategy has been used in any state where racism (or any other hotbutton issue) can divide and conquer.

It's essentially an approach where you are counting on having critical mass so that you, as winner, can take all. The new "southern strategy" (which isn't southern at all, anymore, though the south gets a full dose of it still due to the --albeit shrinking--GOP preponderance of voters in those states) uses not just the old battle flag nonsense (still a Carolina favorite), but social issues to divide and conquer, like prayer in school, Pledge of Allegiance, gay marriage and adoption, the old standby ABORTION, and any other issue that is guaranteed to bring the intolerant assholes to the polls. They might also pull out bullshit canards that are out-and-out lies in an effort to sway "issues voters" to their side--"they" don't want you to pray, "they" want to take away your guns, that kind of horseshit (when "they" in actual fact don't give a damn about these matters).

That's the purpose of the strategy--to maximize the presence of intolerant assholes and panicked issue voters in the voting booths, while simultaneously disenfranchising opposition voters through shenanigans of all sorts, from fake felon lists, like we saw in FL, phone jamming, like we saw in NH, false notifications (poll swapping, ineligibility letters and phone calls, like we saw...well, everywhere).

[piedmont]

117. response:

I would have preferred that you address me directly, rather than take a swipe at me in the body of a post far removed from my original. That's just not the way to debate.
Actually, my original response to the OP was in frustration over what I perceived as south-bashing in a few posts, including yours. Yeah, perhaps I should have just responded to your post but I wanted to start another, broader discussion. That it was spatially distant from yours in the thread is an artifact of my getting into the discussion much later.
As for the last three paragraphs of your post, I essentially agree, and wish you had so well expressed yourself in post #7.

[MADem]

119. My interest is politics.

I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that like Rice a Roni is no longer just "the San Francisco Treat" that everyone knew that the "Southern Strategy" is not just a southern thing anymore.

We can blame Nixon's team for the title, I guess. Had he called it the "Divide and Conquer" or the "Cull 'em and Bullshit 'em" strategy we wouldn't have had this wee contretemps, I imagine!

[piedmont]

125. And mine is biology. :)

Although I'm familiar with aspects of the "Southern Strategy," I wasn't aware of the term's use outside the South. It never ceases to amaze me how politicos and advertisers get folks on the lowest rungs of the socio-economic ladder to vote against their best interests. The churches' role in this has completely soured me on religion.
This is one topic I admittedly get touchy about-- I have a front row seat to the majority of my fellow Southerners being duped into voting for the party practicing class warfare against the poor and middle class, and then I see (some) posters on DU painting the South in the ugliest possible light and advocating giving up on the region entirely! What we need is for the Democratic Party to pay attention down here and fight to win, instead of ignoring us during the presidential races and then everyone wondering why the South is so red. Good talking to you, MADem, and good night.

edit: spelling

[MADem]

143. Biology, eh? No wonder you're off to bed!! Heh, heh!!

Actually, I think that the Democrats should continue to invest HEAVILY in the south--the demographics in the region are trending our way, and our message has broad appeal. Even those who tend to be more socially conservative reach a breaking point where they can't continue to vote against their economic interests, when middle class squeeze takes over and strangles them. I always agreed with Howard Dean's 50 state strategy, and we saw the results this last election cycle.

I do realize how some people put the south down, but I don't do that, at least not intentionally, because I've lived in the region and really liked it (I get especially nostalgic when it's eight degrees out with a wind chill below zero). I can certainly understand the sensitivity, but I'm of the attitude that there are good people, and assholes, everywhere. Each region has their good aspects and bad; if you want to see an example of sizzling, searing racism cloaked in Irish Catholic propriety, google Louise Day Hicks, a Bostonian figure who was divisive in the extreme--she fucked up race relations in eastern Massachusetts for decades, really. We all live in glass houses no matter what part of the country we come from--I just wish we'd move beyond that nonsense as a nation. Maybe in my lifetime, who knows? It would be nice....

[Madspirit]

122. Native Texan here

I see these flags all the time. It usually is an ignorant, toothless, racist Pig, butt-monkey SOB.
Madspirit

[Clark2008]

140. Best post on this thread.

Thank you.

:hug:

[The Straight Story]

31. Here is a poll we should post for this:

Confederate battle flag Versus the US Stars and stripes - which represents worse things in history?

Which one has done more harm to the world, which one represents the most oppression, which one has more blood on it?

To some the SAS may be worse than the CBF. I wonder how many on DU see one as representing more 'evil' than the other?

[MADem]

89. You could ask the converse question too

Which flag has done more good?

The US wasn't always a bunch of assholes. We've done good along with some of our unfortunate excesses. And hopefully, we'll do good again.

I can't see any good that came out of the actions of those waving the Confederate flag--none at all.

The slaves were freed by those fighting under the Stars and Stripes, after all. Hitler was routed by those fighting under that flag, too. The Marshall Plan was implemented under that flag.

We need new leadership in the White House, and perhaps one day we can look at our flag with pride again. We can only hope.

[Ikonoklast]

154. And under which flag was slavery tolerated

for the longer time?




Hint: It's not the Battle Flag. Or the Stars and Bars. It's probably flying over the U.S. Capitol building right now.

[cynatnite]

32. We've got a jackass that does it around here...

It's a big one in the bed of his pickup. :puke: Same knuckle-dragger, you think?

That's not counting all the other morans who tout it.

[Lilith Velkor]

64. Those are bullet magnets around here

Nobody flys that flag for long.

[XanaDUer]

39. As I sit at my computer terminal, I can see out the window.

I am up on a hill and face another building in the complex I live in.

Attached to the balcony across the way is a Conferderate flag, a-flapping in the breeze. I sit at my computer a lot, so I see it a lot. It is left out in the rain, the fog, the cold.

When I go down to walk my dog, I get to see a big pickup truck with a Confederate-flag license plate on the front. Parked across the way is another truck with a bumper sticker that says, "THe Confederate States of America". I'm not sure what that means, exactly. It has a confederate flag with some other types of flags on it. I will look at it closer when my dog has to take a crap later.

Just weird.

EDIT for clarity.

[donco6]

41. Did his plates read, "DUMMASS"? sic

Well, they should have.

[mcar]

47. I saw a confed flag bumper sticker yesterday

that said "never apologize for being white."

:puke:

[theHandpuppet]

51. How come when people bleat that "heritage" line...

... their version of "heritage" leaves out a large portion of people who also share a Southern heritage -- black Americans who, by the hundreds of thousands, toiled as slaves in southern fields and southern houses. Over 100,000 of their number joined the United States Colored Troops. Southern heritage also belongs to Southern Unionists, 120,000 of whom fought for the preservation of the Union. Those ranks were swelled by the Southerners of the Appalachians, my family among them. Southern heritage also belongs to those like the German immigrants of Texas who, rather than be drafted into the Confederate army, fled into hiding or were slaughtered by the hundreds when they refused to fight under the Stars and Bars. Southern heritage is the story of Harriet Tubman, born a Maryland slave, who led hundreds to freedom on the Underground Railroad. ALL of these people were Southerners, too. Who waves the battle flag of the 1st Mississippi or 9th Lousiana USCT?

The Confederate battle flag is not the whole story of "Southern Heritage"; it is merely a part which glorifies a romantic notion of the antebellum South. Those who fly it are well aware of why it offends and who it offends, including other Southerners.

[aikoaiko]

66. Are you a black southerner?

Because most of the black southerners I know couldn't give a rats ass what flag a person flies. They are much more concerned with equal rights and opporunities.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

68. And do you think...

that the sort of people who fly confederate flags are concerned with equal rights and opportunities for blacks?

Because I don't.

[theHandpuppet]

73. Exactly my point.

Thank you.

:thumbsup:

[aikoaiko]

80. Then you don't know much.

Because the average person flying a confederate flag is not arguing for slavery or jim crow laws anymore.

Sure there are some backward looking folks who fly that flag and yearn for the good old days, but by and large, southerners, even republican ones are opposed to racial discrimination (even if they are themselves prejudiced).

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

85. You think so?

Do you suppose these guys care about equal rights and opportunities?

[MADem]

99. Awwww, geeee, they're just expressing their love of their HERITAGE, doncha know!!!!

They aren't wearing that symbol, standing in front of that flag, and saluting in that fashion with a desire to OPPRESS anyone, see?

I mean, really, WHY would you ever THINK such a thing????


:rofl:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

101. Hey, you're being mean!

How do you know those guys are racist? Have you ever met them? Have you ever talked to them? As long as we're being mean, neo nazis will never vote democrat.

:crazy:
:nopity:

[MADem]

106. Yeah, guess we have to look in their hearts, and see what they "mean" when they

stand in front of that flag, and make that salute, and wear those fashion-forward tee shirts, I guess!!

Far be it from ANY of us to make any ASSUMPTIONS based on well-publicized history!!!! Why, that's just being intolerant, I imagine!!!!

:rofl:

[MADem]

82. So, what are you saying, there? This is just an issue for "Black Southerners?"

What about Northeastern Blacks? Or midwestern Blacks? How about NORTHWESTERN Blacks, for that matter? And why just Blacks?

What do race and locality have to do with the fact that the confederate flag is a symbol of oppression? Are you suggesting that if they poll 'black southerners' (starting, I guess with the ones that you know?) and they all say "Sure, we don't care..." that the issue suddenly becomes moot?

Black Southerners don't "own" this issue, and they aren't the final arbiters of it. That flag may be popular south of the Mason-Dixon, but you see it all over the US. And it is insulting to Americans of all races, because it symbolizes the oppression of humans by humans.

[aikoaiko]

115. You seemed to have missed the part where I was responding ...

... to someone who spoke about black southerners.


:eyes:

[MADem]

118. No, rolling eyes notwithstanding, I didn't miss that post at all.

I read the entire exchange. I understood that you were responding. But go take another look at your response.

I'm asking again, what the hell does being a Black southerner have to do with it? Your post asserts that ALL the small b, "black southerners" that YOU know "don't care" about this matter. The implication you are making is that, since your 'black southern' pals allegedly don't care, that the issue is somehow moot.

My point is that, even if what you were saying is true--and frankly, I don't believe you are telling the truth about your small b, black southern friends--that this is not an issue for them to decide, even if they remotely did feel the way you aver.

This is an issue that is directly related to man's inhumanity to man. It is all about a symbol that glorifies that inhumanity. Black people don't OWN the issue of inhumanity--we all own it, regardless of race, color, creed, gender, orientation, you name it.

There can be no parsing, no pushing the truth of this simple fact to the side. The Confederate Flag symbolizes the glorification of slavery. It celebrates INHUMANITY. So you see, I rather doubt your small b 'black southern' friends are onboard with that.

:eyes: indeed... but nice try, you worked hard to avoid answering in a way that no one would notice.

[aikoaiko]

130. I will not answer for something you imagined I said.

You wrote: Your post asserts that ALL the small b, "black southerners" that YOU know "don't care" about this matter.

I actually wrote: Because most of the black southerners I know couldn't give a rats ass what flag a person flies.

Notice the difference in the words ALL and most in the two sentences. I'm sure you didn't intentionally distort what I said.


Now, about not answering for something else I did say. I was addressing someone who made the case that other southerners, African-Americans of the south for example, can have their say in what the flag represents. I happen to agree, but as I said I know very few black southerners who deeply care about the average yahoo flying the rebel flag. Government offices is different issue. You choose not the believe me, but it doesnt concern me. Before I lived in the GA, I thought like you. After living here several years, I learned from both black and white citizens that their thoughts and feelings about the rebel flag is more complicated than I once thought.

I realize that the rebel flag represents supporting slavery to many folks, but, as I said, after living, in the south, I found it to be more complicated than just that one dimension.

But since you want to know, I don't think that only black or white southerners get to define the rebel flag, but then again, the confederacy is a much bigger part of southern life than northern life.

[MADem]

137. Beg pardon, I should have said I don't believe your assertion that MOST 'black southerners'

you know don't care.

Your experience, you should know, is rather unique. I lived in "Hotlanta" for a time and I never met all these uncaring 'black southerners' to whom you refer. I never met them in South Carolina, or Florida, either. Everyone I knew tends to think that the Confederate flag is a hateful, racist symbol, that glorifies slavery, racism and oppression.

You should know that, if you are being truthful, you're hanging around with a very unusual subset of 'black southern' friends...they're not the norm at all. Or it could be they have an idea, accurate or not, as to where you're coming from, and they figure there's just no percentage in rocking the old boat or making waves--like it or not, that's probably a more likely possibility.

[aikoaiko]

164. I can tell you're trying to be decent even with the backhanded comments and patronizing rhetoric

Your misrepresentation of what I said is excused. But I can see from your thinking process how you might have thought I said 'all'.

I probably shouldn't speak for anyone but myself, and I should definitely let black southerners speak for themselves. But I will comment on things I saw after I came to GA. I was surprised to see black southerners buying things from stores that were filled with rebel flag merchandise, talking and socializing with white southerners wearing the rebel flag in one form or another, and living and working side by side with white folks with the rebel flag displayed. In these ways, they did not care much. Compare this reaction to the when black folks meet someone wearing a white sheet spouting "white power" (not something I've seen except on the news). The reactions are qualitatively different. I would have thought the rebel flag would cause a similar reaction among black southerns as swastikas among european-american jews.

Sure, the rebel flag is a hateful, racist symbol that glorifies slavery, racism, and oppression to some people, but when a black southerner meets white southerner with the rebel flag displayed he or she doesn't necessarily think that that white person hates black southerners or is glorifying slavery, racism, and oppression. At least that is how it appears to me.

And for the record -- I do not own or otherwise display the rebel flag out of respect.

[williesgirl]

55. I have a redneck neighbor 1/4 mile down the street who has one hanging in his front yard.

Makes me want to stop and set fire to it every time I pass, which is frequently. Unfortunately, where I live in N. VA. (about 45 minutes west of Fairfax), he's not the lone ranger.

What's the term? You can't fix stupid. How true.

[Clevenger]

92. Do you even know this "redneck neighbor"? Ever talk to him? No, you just want to burn his property.

You know, the South voted Democrat for a very, very long time. If that's ever going to happen again, some of you people had better stop hating them.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

97. "the South voted Democrat for a very, very long time."

Sure. Back when the Democrats were the racist party. Now that the Republican party has the racist platform they vote Republican.

You're not helping your argument very much.

[Clevenger]

102. Democrats can be racist? Bite your tongue! n/t

[MADem]

103. OOOOPSIE, your slip is showing there, pal

You said: You know, the South voted Democrat for a very, very long time. If that's ever going to happen again, some of you people had better stop hating them.

First of all, it's DEMOCRATIC. The South voted DemocratIC. Don't forget the "IC"--that's what George Bush did in the SOTU. And Joe Scarborough, of all people, called him on it.

Secondly, what is this "you people" shit? "You people" happen to be the Democrats who post here. You apparently aren't in our "you people" club, is that what you're saying?

Paging Doctor Freud!!!

Secondly, of those people in the south of whom you speak who voted DemocratIC, most of them switched to the GOP when Lyndon Johnson "betrayed" them with his Civil Rights legislation and his "Great Society." You know those old Democrats--Strom Thurmond, Jesse Helms...hell, even TRENT LOTT was one of those young Democrats of whom you speak.

Guess what? Our party doesn't WANT Democrats like that. We don't want them, and we don't need them. Our DemocratIC principles don't tolerate that sort of racism, see?

[Clevenger]

107. Why are some in this forum kicking southerners around like dogs?...

Do you do it just so you can feel superior to them? I think so. People used to do that to Blacks, you know, and it's no prettier to watch today. You don't even know the people you're putting down.

[MADem]

113. I beg your pardon? Name these "some" or begone. And answer the question there, don't change the

subject.

I see where you're coming from, and it ain't even subtle.

[ms liberty]

131. You might like to know...

In this case, the poster might not be using 'Democrat' in the Republicult manner. If the poster is southern, he is using the word 'Democrat' in the proper way - in the south, it is a common regional usage. For instance, if I spoke to my sister the day after the election about my vote, it would be commonly used southern english to say "I voted Democrat all the way" or I might ask her "You did vote Democrat, didn't you?" (to which she would reply: "duh - you think I'd vote Republican?") It has nothing to do with the Repuke misuse of our party name. It is a regional variance in the language only.

I'm not posting this to get involved in the argument in general, but just because there is a legitimate regional dialect usage that would not be known to those who are not native southerners. I don't know that to be the case with the poster who used the term, however in the interest of fairness I bring up the objective possibility. If you were to visit the rural NC county I live in, you would hear lifelong southern democrats use the word in that same way.

[alittlelark]

150. The south STOPPED voting DEM w/ the CIVIL RIGHTS legislation

HOW embarrassing is that!:banghead:

[alittlelark]

152. Are you gonna answer me... OK it wasn't phrased as a question...

Are YOU EMBARRASSED THAT the S. STATES STOPPED voting DEM w/ the passage of CIVIL RIGHTS LEGISLATION?????

[Spider Jerusalem]

153. He's dead, Jim.

And buried, too. Tombstone put up and everything.

[alittlelark]

155. How funny, I'm watching ST originals as I type.

[Clark2008]

70. Ignore it and will go away.

Give it no power and it will have none.

[zbdent]

74. Doesn't it seem ironic, though, that those who consider themselves today's "patriots"

are bowing down to an image that symbolizes those who wanted out of this country?

[MADem]

83. Wow....if that isn't a "When you can snatch the pebble from my hand" remark!!!

And you're right on the money with it!!!! Well played!!!

[theHandpuppet]

84. Here's some Southern heritage to celebrate and flags to wave

United States Colored Troops of South Carolina
http://www.blackcamisards.com/sc-usct/index.html
(excerpt)
The history of the USCT was brief yet illustrative, with little more than two years of service before the War officially ended. By the time the War ran its course, approximately 160 regiments and 10 batteries of light artillery comprising nearly 200,000 ex-slaves and freedmen had enlisted and served in USCT tactical units.

Of the colored soldiers who joined the Union effort, more than 5,000 were recruited from the state of South Carolina, comprising the enlisted ranks of six infantry regiments ( 21st | 33rd | 34th | 103rd | 104th and 128th ) and one artillery battery ( Battery "G", 2nd Light Artillery Regiment). The 105th Infantry Regiment did not completely formed before the end of the war and was quickly disbanded.

Perhaps no regiment was more symbolic of the participation and contribution of African Americans to the War effort than the 1st South Carolina Colored Infantry, a contingent of slaves from the harsh, back- breaking farms of the coastal Low Country regions of the state. South Carolina was a state that was steeped in the practice of slavery, whose very existence and wherewithal were built on and dependent upon one man's involuntary servitude to another. Indeed, South Carolina, perhaps more so than the other southern states, was synonymous with the slave trade, the plantation system and the inequality of the races. From Columbia to Charleston to Hilton Head, South Carolina, the first state to secede from the Union, was the essence of Dixie.

First US Flag Over Charleston raised by USCT troops

http://history-sites.com/mb/cw/cwflags/index.cgi?noframes;read=3302
(excerpt)
"A great ovation was given to Gen. U.S. Grant...the torn, tattered and faded battle flag carried by D. C. Vestal, as color-bearer of Phil Sheridan Post, excited much comment, and its history would not be out of place here. It belonged in 1864 to the Twenty-first Regiment, South Carolina Colored Volunteers, commanded by Col. A. G. Bennett, afterwards of San Jose, and was the first Union flag raised in Charleston after that city's surrender to and occupation by the Union forces. Five color-bearers were shot down while carrying it, and every hole in it was made by a Confederate bullet."

http://history-sites.com/mb/cw/cwflags/index.cgi?noframes;read=3311
(excerpt)
Contact the Charleston Museum on Meeting Street, if they do not have anything, they should be able to direct you in the right direction. ( 843-722-2996)

You are correct on the US flag at the Relic Room, its a fragment of the 2nd US S.C. Regiment (African Descent)
John Bigham of the Relic Room does not have information on the flag of the 21st USCT.

The 21st USCT was made up of the 3rd & 4th (US) South Carolina Regiments (African Descent). The 3rd & 4th never did fully organize so they most likely did not receive a stand of flags until the 21st was organized.

I heard from West Point and the flag is not there nor is it on the list of the 54 USCT flags destroyed in 1920, so it may still be out there in California some place.

Are their battle flags not part of "Southern Heritage" too?

Number of USCT by state (listing southern states and border (neutral) states only for this discussion)

Alabama 4,969
Arkansas 5,526
Florida 1,044
Georgia 3,486
Kentucky 23,703
Louisiana 24,502
Maryland 8,718
Mississippi 17,869
North Carolina 5,035
South Carolina 5,462
Tennessee 20,133
Texas 47
Virginia 5,723

http://www.lwfaam.net/cw/
http://www.coax.net/people/lwf/usct.htm
http://www.nps.gov/archive/rich/reci~292.htm
http://www.nps.gov/rich/historyculture/union-p2.htm
http://home.usmo.com/~momollus/USCT.HTM
http://www.rootsweb.com/~ncusct/usct.htm
http://www.awod.com/cwchas/1sc.html
http://new.siteone.com/sites/blakeleypark.com/usct.htm
http://extlab1.entnem.ufl.edu/Olustee/8th_USCI.html

How about flying some of those battle flags as part of a "Southern Heritage" celebration?

***************

" The most obvious example of support for the Union and disdain for the Confederacy was the enlistment of many Southerners in the Federal Army. Again, only recently has much attention been paid by historians to the large numbers of Southerners (both black and white) who added their numbers to the Union rather than the Confederacy. These "anti-Confederate Southerners," as one historian has called them, contributed 300,000 white and 150,000 black troops to the Union Army, more than replacing all battle losses suffered by the Union during the course of the war, and more importantly, they could have replaced the Confederate losses as well. It seems to be the consensus of historians that the Confederate Army contained a total of 900,000 men during the entire course of the war. Thus the number of Southerners who fought for the Union would have added another 50 percent to the numbers of the Confederacy had they fought for the other side. Unionist units came from every single border slave state and from every state in the Confederacy with the single exception of South Carolina, which did contribute individuals to other Southern Unionist units."

http://www.1stalabamacavalryusv.com/loyalist.asp
http://www.aotc.net/Antithomasspin.htm
http://www.rootsweb.com/~arcivwar/loyal.htm
http://www.lsu.edu/lsupress/Books/Spring2004/books/Storey_Loyalty_Loss.html
http://www.uark.edu/~uaprinfo/titles/sp06/haynes_narrative.html

Betcha the statues of these heroes aren't lining the streets of Richmond!

[Warren DeMontague]

94. I see that sometimes here--- in California.

:shrug:

[Solo_in_MD]

105. I think we should be mature enough to put it behind us and worry about things that matter

equal rights, good schools for all and other matters.

[Clevenger]

108. I agree, but some like to flog an issue because it makes them feel superior. n/t

[blonndee]

114. Like some like to fly a flag because it makes them feel superior, right?

Anyway, what a way to unfairly and inadequately summarize the arguments of those with whom you disagree. Very dishonest. Either you haven't even bothered to consider many of the explanations here for why people react negatively to this flag, or you are well aware of them and you're simply PRETENDING people object because it makes them feel superior, because you know your real argument is a failure and can't stand against theirs.

[treestar]

112. Why you southern-hatin' yankee

Don't you know that the war was fought for states' rights, and that the North just wanted the South's wealth?

:sarcasm:

I have a freepy-friend who is southern and loves to assert that Lincoln was a racist and that there were slaves in the North (I kid you not) and that the blacks actually liked being enslaved.

:banghead:

[Spider Jerusalem]

151. Fun facts:

Lincoln was, in fact, a racist (certainly by modern standards); he was a white supremacist who made public statements that blacks ought to occupy a subservient position in society, and his solution for the slavery question was shipping all those liberated from bondage off to
Liberia. (see here for a review of a book by a noted African-American author on the less recognised aspects of Lincoln's character.)

And there were, in fact, slaves in the North; slavery wasn't abolished in New Jersey until 1846, and in Connecticut until 1848.(Then there's the border states...Maryland, Delaware, Kentucky, and Missouri, in which slavery was only ended by the 13th Amendment to the Constitution.)

I can't really imagine that anyone would like being enslaved, but the other things are not really so far off the mark.

[Pacifist Patriot]

116. You know why I hate it?

Because it gives Americans the opportunity to focus white racism on one section of the country and derive it from a specific point in time. The truth is that African Americans have been disadvantaged in all corners of our nation. Blacks were rarely welcomed into New York and Boston salons any more than they were into Atlanta and Charleston parlors. Yes, things may be better today than they were a generation ago and a damn sight better than they were two centuries ago, but skin color is still an issue.

Instead of putting our noses in the air and proclaiming how much better we are than jackasses who sport the Confederate battle flag on their automobiles, we should take a look at what we are doing to empower all races, ethnicities, religions, genders, sexualities, etc. beyond asserting that life should be that way.

[mitchum]

126. It's a loser rag

[and-justice-for-all]

142. I use it to wipe my ass with.....

...well not really, its a bit ruff on me bum.

[TheModernTerrorist]

132. It's just another symbol

and I suppose it all depends on one's perception and point-of-view. While a racist may feel that it stands for slavery, lynching, racism, etc, and feels that the flag is support for those ideals, a black man may feel like it's a reminder of history, and although it is a negative symbol, it's one that won't let anyone forget of a terrible time in our history. Look at the upside-down purple triangle that was adopted by the gay community some decades ago, and the history behind that symbol. Why would they use a symbol from such an awful period in history? Because it reminds them of how we got to where we are today, and all the struggle that has happened.


But to answer your question, anyone flying the flag around like said idiot is clearly uneducated and misinformed... but I'd say the same for someone flying the American flag around in the same way.

[Madspirit]

133. black friend asks

At least one of you said that black people don't give a hoot whether that flag is flown or not. I have a black friend standing right by me, having just read all these posts. She says, "so they think blacks are retarded, simple or stupid? I hate that flag and everything it symbolizes."

Being a Texan I KNOW that every single time I see some moron flying that flag and look inside the pick-up they are driving, the driver looks like a toothless subhuman miscreant racist butt monkey. What the flag symbolizes to blacks is ALL that counts. What it represents, the pain it causes....those are very easily reason enough to NEVER fly it, to never be an apologist..."oh well it means something else, about southern heritage, blah, blah, blah, blah." My ass. It represents ONE thing, to everyone and anyone who looks for excuses to fly it, is simply an insensitive, racist PIG.

That this story is about a black person wanting to fly it...so the fuck what? Clarence Thomas is also black, supposedly. ...and 8% of George Wallace's vote were blacks. ...because some blacks are misinformed, ill-intentioned masochists, doesn't change anything.

...and to the sneaky Libertarians pretending it is about something else, about someone stopping you from doing whatever the hell you want. No, it isn't. No one is saying it should be illegal to fly. I am simply saying that anyone who does fly it, is a fuck-head and a racist.

The Swastika is an ancient symbol and used to be an innocent symbol, of peace, I believe. It is no more. I wouldn't display that either.

So go defend your right to be an asshole but don't pretend it means anything but that.... You don't care who it hurts. You don't care what it symbolizes to blacks. You just don't care.
Madspirit

[Swamp Rat]

136. Amen!

It IS a symbol of hate.

Period.

[Roon]

139. Granny on the Beverly Hillbillys had a rebel flag

Just saying..

[and-justice-for-all]

141. Just remind him that "THE SOUTH LOST, GET OVER IT!" nt

[stranger]

149. unfortunately, they didn't lose. Think about it this way::

the gop has been putting white southern males
in the white house and in high positions throughout the government
and trashing human rights, oppressing the poor-both black and white-
and overturning historic supreme court protections for the most powerless and
vulnerable-in AMERICA-not just in the confederacy.

[Spider Jerusalem]

145. The issue isn't quite so black and white as you make out...

(sorry for the bad pun, there).

The majority of Southerners never owned slaves, and probably the majority of Confederate soldiers served in defence of their homes and families--case in point: my 3rd great-grandfather, who was a poor Scots-Irish farmer in Clayton County, Georgia. He didn't own any slaves, and from what I know of him doesn't seem to've been political, but even so he joined the Georgia militia in 1864, at the age of 46, as Sherman's army was marching on Atlanta (In the same situation, with an invading army pillaging, looting and burning its way across the countryside, and my home right in their path, I'd probably do the same thing. So would you.)

Not to mention that the South was invaded, much of it was laid waste, and it was occupied for over a decade; that's something people don't get over easily. It's been over three hundred years since the Protestant William III defeated the Catholic James II at the Battle of the Boyne; Northern Irish Protestants and Catholics have been fighting one another ever since.

I wouldn't fly a Confederate flag, personally, but I'm capable of realising that symbols mean different things to different people, and that some people probably DO see it as a legitimate way to honour their ancestors.

[tinfoil tiaras]

171. I agree

I hate that flag. It epidomizes the stereotype of southerners i hate the most.

It doesn't represent MY southern heritage. For southern heritage, go read books by southern authors like William Faulkner and Eudors Welty. :D

[frustrated_lefty]

172. Flags and Heritage, reposting

Yet another one of those damnable threads asking if the confederate flag is a symbol of “racism” or “heritage” has percolated its way to the surface, like a noxious fart bubbling up to disturb the placid serenity of our beloved DU. It’s almost enough to make you wonder if there isn’t a group of monkeys tapping away at their keyboards in a room somewhere, trying desperately to write a sonnet, but mysteriously arriving at the words “racist,” “racist heritage,” “heritage of racism,” “swastika,” “traitor,” “loser” and “unpatriotic” far more often than is statistically likely. Or, maybe those threads are like tribbles in the DU archives where, left alone for too long, they propagate like bunnies and finally spill over into your lap. Cute enough initially, but eventually you start looking for innovative ways to get rid of the little bastards. A butcher knife, a shotgun, a microwave…hell, even a weedwhacker, any tool will do.

There are a couple of statements that are oft repeated in these threads which I’d like to dispense with at the outset before raising a few points and asking a few questions. Read on if you like, or not, as you see fit.

The first statement which is invariably made is formulaic. The confederate flag is: a) a symbol of racism; b) the chosen emblem of traitors (and is hence unpatriotic); c) the southern version of the swastika; d) a worn out symbol for a whacked out people too stupid to realize their team lost. Don’t worry, this isn’t multiple choice, you can mix and match to personalize your very own condemnation. While making your selection, though, you might recall that the American flag is the same flag which was flying in Tuskegee not so very long ago; it’s the same flag which was flying when Fat Man and Little Boy made their presence known to the world; and it’s the same flag which is flying now while thousands of innocents are being tortured in Guantanamo Bay and throughout the Middle East. And, here’s the nifty part: it’s being done in your name whether or not you’ve given it your personal stamp of approval.

The second statement which pops up routinely is an extension or the “traitor” label. It runs something like “those stupid southerners need to realize they lost, they’re part of the United States, they’re just going to have to get over their isolationism.” I’ve pondered this, and agree with it on some level. Due to recent events, though, a thought nags at the back of my mind, makes me wonder why the hell the South should feel all warm and cuddly with the rest of the nation. Katrina. New Orleans. Would the response time be the same if this happened in New York or Los Angeles or Seattle? Would there be mobile homes sitting unused in parking lots? Would basic power still not be working over 1 year later? Would the nation tolerate it if that devastation happened anywhere but in the South? If your answer to that is “no,” then please explain why exactly southerners are supposed to perceive themselves as equal partners in this wonderful union of ours?

All of that aside, I’ve given some thought to exactly why southern pride is the way it is and why so many southerners take pride in things that might leave a northerner aghast or, at the very best, indifferent. I’ve started with the premise that just about every individual goes through this life with their own personal yardstick for measuring its success. And, although what that yardstick measures varies from person to person, there are some common themes and most of themes are tangible in some way. Material wealth, philanthropy, providing for your family, raising a not-too-screwed-up kid, etc. In doing some state by state comparisons, though, it becomes apparent that the South is a pretty sucky place to be if you base your sense of self worth on these measures. One statistical study found there to be a direct correlation between red vs. blue states and infant mortality, with infant mortality being twice as likely in red states, primarily due to the South. Poverty is rampant everywhere, but what northern city can boast that 50% of its working age population is unemployed? Quality education for your kids or yourself in the South? That’s a hard thing to come by, and generally costs too much to be accessible to most families. Income is lower in the South, total mortality higher, health care quality higher, rate of teen death by suicide, homicide and accident are all higher. By virtually any tangible index you care to measure, the South is the idiot stepchild of the nation. I think when you take away the ability of people to care for the needs of their families, their children and even themselves, you end up with a bunch of people who start to measure their sense of self worth based on less tangible things like Christian morals and “family values” and a gungho, untamed rebel spirit which is embodied (for some) in an unfortunate piece of cloth. Not that any of these things are necessarily bad. But, when they’re all that you have, you cling to them too tightly and may even get a bit overbearing and fanatical about it.

Of course, this is not to say that there aren’t a lot of racist assholes who fly the Confederate flag. I just don’t think the labels, name-calling and self-righteous condemnations that fly around here when the topic comes up really quite address the issue.

Shutting up now, flame away.