What people are missing in the Octuplet story....

[Liberal_in_LA]

Just speculating: 1. She's mid 30s. 2. She gets a new boyfriend. She might have been one of those approaching middle aged women with a pre-existing brood, meets a new guy whose got to have 'one of his own'. Hence the fertility treatment.

I'm not approving it, just saying some women feel they MUST have a kid by the current boyfriend to keep him.
***************************************************************
update: More articles coming out. Guess I was wrong -Octuplets' mom was hoping for 'just one more girl,' grandmother says
By Jessica Garrison and Kimi Yoshino
January 31, 2009

Nadya Suleman's goal in life was to be a mother, her friends and family said. That is why, even with a brood of six, including 2-year-old twins, she decided to have more embryos transferred in hopes, her mother said Friday, of getting "just one more girl."

"And look what happened. Octuplets. Dear God," Angela Suleman said four days after her 33-year-old daughter became the second person in the U.S. ever to give birth to eight babies at once.


Suleman stressed that her daughter "is not evil, but she is obsessed with children. She loves children, she is very good with children, but obviously she overdid herself."

Angela Suleman said all the children are from the same sperm donor, but she did not identify him. Her daughter is divorced, but Suleman said the ex-husband was not the father.

[Syrinx]

1. people are missing speculation?

That situation is very odd. But I have no idea what's going on.

[ima_sinnic]

2. another story said she was "obsessed" w having children & had "leftover" embryos

ALL of which she HAD to incubate.

but no matter, it was her "right" to saddle US taxpayers and charitable citizens with a litter of 8 tax deductions while unwanted, abused, parentless children languish in foster homes, orphanages, and cardboard boxes and rag heaps on city streets.

[blonndee]

4. What I don't get is which doctor would go along with her "need" to "incubate"

all eight embryos. From everything I've heard, no reputable doctor would do such a thing. This is really weird, if it really is this type of fertility treatment.

[Why Syzygy]

5. Yeah. That's not something

she could accomplish on her own. Are we to assume by this that her other children were in vitro also?

[LeftyMom]

7. Infertility draws a lot of really sketchy doctors since it's very profitable and insurance isn't

generally an issue.

Because fertility clinics promote themselves based on their success rates, there is pressure to implant too many embryos or take other risks in order to achieve a pregnancy.

[blonndee]

8. Interesting!

I hadn't thought of that, but it makes sense. Maybe I have held an unrealistic view of doctors in this country.

[sohndrsmith]

12. Wait. I'm confused. When you say "insurance isn't generally an issue",

am I correct in assuming you mean that people generally have to pay up front cash money because this is something insurance companies might consider "elective"??

Or are you saying that insurance isn't an issue because profit margin is based on how high the baby numbers are... so they offer these "fertility treatments" gratis - or nearly so? Do they bother to interview the women who come to them?

This is just astounding. I have always assumed that fertility treatments were available to women/couples who had exhausted every other option and that taking this step was an extremely significant, carefully organized and thoroughly explored process - that carried some weight and seriousness with it - if for no other reason BUT the likelihood of risks... that it would be a huge decision and a formal process to go through...

Guess I thought wrong, huh?

I think this woman has an obsessive compulsion (I could be wrong for sure, but it's still my guess) and I am astounded that any doctor would not: a) pick up on this possibility and b) suggest this woman seek a healthier alternative, informing her she may not be an appropriate candidate for the procedure. The last possibility - that the doctors did not have any concerns, due to their inadequate screening process (if there is such a thing - I figured there would be since there is for everything else under the sun, especially since human trafficking is not a fairytale and babies, particularly white babies, might be a valid agenda that they must be looking out for) or inadequate training/professionalism/common sense on the part of the physicians.

Anyone ever try to adopt a dog from a rescue? Not even a purebred but a mixed-breed old mutt? The requirements are stringent and there's no guarantee you'll be approved. Obviously, this fertility/embryo thing is a little different, but I find it stunning that it seems a heck of a lot easier to get implanted with multiple embryos (which turn into actual human beings - they're not dolls or playthings) than it is to adopt my lovely old neurotic mutt. I've seen what friends went through trying to adopt a baby from an orphanage in Russia... it took them ages to be approved, qualify through the vetting process, ensure that all was in order for the baby's health and well being and future - it was a grueling, expensive process and they were grateful for being able to do it because they came home with a beautiful daughter and would have done it all over again if they didn't then immediately get pregnant (after being told they couldn't)... how is it possible that there are no such thorough formalities for fertility treatments - specifically to screen out people who are abnormally obsessed with having babies or people who want to sell them... I guess I'm thoroughly ignorant of the entire process.

This is just mind-blowingly - weird - on too many fronts... I am not certain this is going to be a positive scenario as it plays out... I hope those babies are doing all right... (sigh).

[Ms. Toad]

31. Generally fertility treatments are not covered by insurance. n/t

[LeftyMom]

57. Like everything else, doctors vary

Some are absolute saints, some are scoundrels, most just want to pay the rent. Like the rest of us, really. Only with more student loan debt. ;)

Unfortunately, since insurance generally covers few if any infertility related treatments or medications, infertility is a "cash up front" specialty, similar to plastic surgery in that respect. Like plastic surgery, that can result in everything from chain clinics that cram as many patients as possible into a day, shift most care onto support staff and offer slightly lower fees (these tend to be where a lot of the problems happen, from what I understand) on up to very good doctors offering fantastic individualized care, which can unfortunately be spectacularly expensive.

[uppityperson]

49. That doctor acted very unethically. In my opinion.

[Ms. Toad]

29. The leftover embryos was the thought I had last night

Someone who decided embryos were people and implanted them, rather than discard them, to avoid what she believed was murder.

[Jamastiene]

3. And that's the way they became the Brady Bunch. n/t

[Why Syzygy]

6. Since when?

I'm not approving it, just saying some women feel they MUST have a kid by the current boyfriend to keep him.

This was never an issue when I was in a child bearing age group. None of my friends ever wanted a kid with every boyfriend! What a horrendous concept. To KEEP HIM?

What the hell did the women of the 70's march and work for if this is the RESULT? TO KEEP HIM?
We accomplished nothing? That's a retro to what generation??? I've never heard of such a thing.

You can tell I'm shocked by this statement?

[uppityperson]

50. Unfortunately I know women like that. It always makes me sad to run across one

like that. They are a minority, but they are out there.

[LisaL]

56. Wanting a kid with a new boyfriend would make more sense to me

than an unmarried woman, living with her parents and her six kids, wanting more kids still. But, OP's speculations certainly do not appear to be what happened in this case.

[uppityperson]

59. cross link to my post on Ethics and Regulation, fyi...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4949892&mesg_id=4950986

[Liberal_in_LA]

74. No I was wrong. I mistakenly thought there was a relationship with a male involved.

[sohndrsmith]

9. Okay, call me crazy - but my red flag just went way up. The big one

I keep for special occasions.

This woman feels that her goal in life is to be a mother? Cool. I didn't realize how much that actually meant until my daughter was born and said, "Guess what? Nothing matters more than me!". The universe sort of fell into place for me... so I understand that concept. And the same thing happened when I had my second daughter...

But my understanding ends there.

First of all, I find it more than a little disturbing that this woman has taken a reasonable, understandable goal that many people have (wanting to have a child) but unless the text is worded to intentionally distort this normal emotion - drive - desire (that is based on giving and selflessness, not self attainment or satisfaction) then there seems to be something very wrong here.

My concern is only emphasized by the fact that this woman has 6 children - and is apparently not satisfied, personally (and this is a key issue here - self interest) with only six children... she is described unabashedly as "obsessed" by her own mother. Her obsession is clearly not with the children but with whatever reward or satisfaction she gets - herself - from these children. Or so it appears based on the limited information available.

This is just disturbing to me in lots of ways - and I was confused on the whole issue because I knew so little. This woman seems to need to have children for some personal reason that tells me she is far more involved in herself and the children are secondary - none of them are enough... she needs more.

I find it odd that her mother would use the word "evil" to describe what her daughter is not. I find it disturbing that this woman apparently stashed her embryos... what does "she decided to have more embryos" mean? Because she wanted another girl? What doctors were advising this woman?

I hate to say this but this is really starting to sound like a mental health issue - not unlike the examples of hoarders often depicted in the animal rescue programs. They can't have enough and they keep collecting or hoarding them - thinking that they are nurturing these animals when they're actually harming them because of an unhealthy (but common) obsession.

Give me one reason to negate the possibility that this is not the same or a similar phenomenon with this woman - only her disorder is manifested in babies, not cats or dogs. And this is only one possibility.

Nothing about this sounds right to me at all anymore....

If anyone can shoot my concerns down, I'd appreciate it.

[ima_sinnic]

11. I totally agree. Good insights. It's all about HER, not the babies.

Now that they are born, is she already plotting how to conceive more?

What kind of quality of life will any of the 14 have, esp. in light of the fact that the mother appears to have serious mental issues?

At least in the cases of dogs, cats, rabbits, and other hoarded pets, someone will eventually come and rescue them. Will these children be rescued?

[theHandpuppet]

17. And one of the six children she had previously is autistic

How much care and attention will that child receive now that there are 13 other children and babies to care for?

This mother is a selfish nutcase. No doubt, though, she'll be raking in the bucks once the Discovery Channel signs her to a contract for one their brood mare du jour TV shows.

[Kahuna]

15. For the many years I've been on DU, I've been a live and let live..

type. But this is just irresponsible to the enth degree. Babies are not puppies and were never intended to be bred as such. I just heard on the news that ALL of her previous childred were in vitro. Even if they weren't, I can hardly imagine how a single mother can cope with six small children, nevermind FOURTEEN!!! :scared:

[NashVegas]

25. Yup

No ethical doctor would have performed this, but instead referred her to a therapist.

I honestly don't get people who say doctors are supposed to do what they're paid to, like McDonald's hamburger flippers, and complain about the current financial crisis. Those Wall St. guys? They were doing what they were paid to do, too.

[Shakespeare]

39. Talk around here (LA) is that she had the fertility treatments in Mexico.

Americans who show up with $$ for procedures generally aren't questioned about their motives.

[stanwyck]

27. Agree, The medical community may not have acted

illegally in implanting eight embryos into this woman, but I believe the doctors involved acted irresponsibly.

[Shakespeare]

38. I told my sister yesterday that I thought she may be a hoarder.

Only with babies, not pets. It's really disturbing.

btw, local talk (here in the LA area) is that she got the fertility treatments in Mexico, and that's why very little is being said about it on the news.

[chatnoir]

65. Mexico sounds like the only explanation

I just don't get why the news would more or less keep that quiet.

[InvisibleTouch]

44. That was exactly my conclusion too. A hoarder mentality.

What is it in a person that eternally feels they don't have "enough," and results in the obsessive need to add more and more - be it animals or children? That's not about the love of the animals or children, because you can't possibly care for them all in a way they deserve. That's a lack within the person's own soul. If they can care for them all, that's one thing ... but what if it gets to the point where the parent doesn't even see that the lives they've brought into the world are suffering? Their own desire outweighs the quality of life of the kids.

[cherish44]

54. OK it's stories like this that have made me question the existance of God

I know people who have spent years and years just trying to get ONE child. Infertility procedures are hell, the adoption process is stressful and frustrating beyond belief. And seeing all the stories of abused and neglected kids with IDIOT parents out there makes it even more unjust.
]

[rvablue]

66. Good post. And maybe she has a little Munchausen on top of that OCD?? n/t

[bridgit]

10. Strange 'right to life' people & Med staff are treating children like they're born from some kind of

cabbage patch, "I want a baby sooooo much! *I* just love to hold babies and smell and hug them and kiss them I require their requiring my care for them and have them (what? become anxious over *my* 9 ~ 14 children only having two teats!!) suckle my lesser means"...it...is: a grotesque spectacle imo it's a form of syndrome I fairly sure; and doctors know better for advising such process but for money and the technology do to so

[newfie11]

13. Damn I have had my Champion dog AI'ed 3 times and not nary a pup.

This woman has the litter I wanted!!!!!!

[Kahuna]

14. I just heard on MSNBC that the six prior children are were also in vitro..

This was according to the woman's mother. This is science run amok. :scared:

[tekisui]

16. A modern science 'Queen Bee' and her brood.

Freaky.

[morillon]

23. Good LORD.

I know a woman who underwent fertility treatments for years to have ONE baby. That's all she wanted. Just one. And she never got there. Why wasn't it enough to have SIX? That's a huge family right there.

[juno jones]

28. I think the difference here

is that your friend was genuinely in need of assistance. As all SIX of her previous children by the same donor were implanted as well, I would guess that this woman is actually quite fertile and would be capable of having children the natural way if she desired a partner in the process.

Just a guess, IMHO.

[LisaL]

30. No, her mother says the daughter was not fertile and could not

have the children naturally because of problem with fallopian tubes.

[juno jones]

69. I guess I was thinking of hormonal levels

Thanks for the update.

[Ms. Toad]

34. Doubt it.

Artificial insemination is WAY cheaper (and far less invasive) than in vitro. No responsible physician would do in vitro if there were eggs being produced and a clear path from the ovary to the uterus - and if it is just a matter of egg production, you an stimulate egg production and do donor insemination without surgically removing the eggs and re-implanting them after fertilization .

[juno jones]

70. Sorry, I was thinking hormonal levels as oppsed to more mechanical problems.

[Ms. Toad]

71. Some folks with hormonal problems

can still have kids the old fashioned way - you essentially use the first step of the in vitro process to prompt the production of eggs to address some hormonal problems.

[ima_sinnic]

18. a Baby Alive Sip N Slurp Baby Doll is only $29.95 on eBay

-- please, everybody, send her one -- it would be so much easier on the taxpayers (no public assistance needed, and no tax deductions given), and they can tolerate being neglected, and they don't have health issues and don't suck down resources, and they can be thrown out when they get tiresome. If only this option had been offered years ago!

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Baby-Alive-Sip-N-Slurp-Doll-Drinks-Wets-diaper-NIB_W0QQitemZ400013299856QQcmdZViewItem

[KittyWampus]

19. "overdid herself"? Makes it sound like she ate a whole pint of Ben & Jerry's. The doctor needs

to be hauled in front of the Medical Board.

[rainbow4321]

22. One of the talking heads said money wise, to JUST feed/clothe/shelter

14 kids, it is about $2 million (I assume over this covers their entire childhood)---that doesn't include any bells or whistles in their lives.

So what is she going to do when her 15 minutes of fame is up? Call and try to get a national interview every few years in hopes of getting the public making donations??

[remember2000forever]

20. All Female Species Should Not have More Off-Spring

Then They Have Teets!

Nature Knows Best!

[ellie]

21. I read the sperm donor

part on another blog. My question is, don't you think the state of California will go after this sperm donor? There is no way this woman is not going to go on public assistance. If there is a father to be identified, I would think the state would go after him for money. Poor guy. I am sure he didn't realize what she was planning. I hope he has a good job to support his 14 kids!

Now all they have to do is identify him.

[kskiska]

32. He's seems to have been identified

(snip)

According to one neighbor, Suleman used the same sperm donor for all 14 kids. The donor was an acquaintance, who after getting married recently, asked her no longer to use his sperm, a neighbor said. "But she did it anyway," the neighbor said.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/01312009/news/nationalnews/whoa__momma____152878.htm

(snip)

Angela Suleman said her daughter always had trouble conceiving and underwent in vitro fertilization treatments because her fallopian tubes are "plugged up."

There were frozen embryos left over after her previous pregnancies and her daughter didn't want them destroyed, so she decided to have more children.

Her mother and doctors have said the woman was told she had the option to abort some of the embryos and, later, the fetuses. She refused.

Her mother said she does not believe her daughter will have any more children.

"She doesn't have any more (frozen embryos), so it's over now," she said. "It has to be."


(snip)

Her fertility doctor has not been identified. Her mother told the Los Angeles Times all the children came from the same sperm donor but she declined to identify him.

Birth certificates reviewed by The Associated Press identify a David Solomon as the father for the four oldest children. Certificates for the other children were not immediately available.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090131/ap_on_re_us/octuplets

[Ms. Toad]

36. If mom seeks public support,

David Solomon may have a nasty surprise.

Anonymous donor insemination insulates the donor from requests (by mom or the state) for support. Known donor is an entirely different matter - and if the state gives out money, it generally has the right to collect from known donors.

[LisaL]

37. Can you imagine possibly paying the child support for that many kids?

Whoever the donor is.

[Ms. Toad]

42. He's been identified

He's actually listed on (at least) some of the kids' birth certificates. According to one poster upthread, he asked her to stop using his sperm since he was getting married and she ignored him.

[petronius]

43. This certainly could lead to an interesting legal fight - and I'm guessing

that in court the "asked" won't be worth the paper it's written on. This guy better get a lawyer...

[Ms. Toad]

67. I haven't looked at the case law recently,

but the last time I looked in connection to lesbians using friends as donors, friends as donors were still fathers for purposes of child support and visitation. Anonymous donors through a sperm bank are treated differently (although children of donors are trying to change that with respect to finding out their parentage - donorsiblingregistry.com is dedicated to helping children at least find half siblings, and there is a move to grant children of donors the right to know their parents).

Since the rights with respect to support and visitation generally rely on the child's right to support and a relationship with his parents, you're probably right about the fact that he "asked" her to stop using his sperm probably won't matter.

[uppityperson]

52. This could be an interesting legal issue. Good grief. What a mess.

I wish the best for the kids who may have some big issues in life.

Shame on the doctor who implanted so many embryos.

[FloridaJudy]

46. Boy, this just gets weirder and weirder

If there's any truth to what these people say, someone needs his or her medical license yanked.

[AguaAzul]

60. Solomon ==== Sulamen

Has anyone else noticed that the supposed sperm donor is idetified as David Solomon and the last name of the family is "Suleman"?
Basically it's the same name and I wonder if the family his a little chicanery going on. Bizarre.

[morillon]

24. This story is sickening.

Why weren't the kids she already had enough? How would it feel to be the girl (or girls) in the group of six children she had before the octuplets?

I agree with a couple of other posters here -- she's like those animal hoarders who have some kind of mental disorder.

[LisaL]

26. Obviously you were way off track with your speculation.

Apparently woman is obsessed with having babies, and it's being reported all the babies are throug IVF. The whole story only gets stranger and stranger by the minute.

[earth mom]

33. What people are missing is the money the mom expects to make out of this.

Gifts, Donations, Endorsement, maybe even a T.V. show.

This is ALL about the MONEY. :puke:

[TahitiNut]

35. How can she "be a (good) mother" to her SIX children by having EIGHT more???

Batshit insane.

[Kahuna]

40. She now has 14 SMALL children. Sounds batshit insane to me too..

:scared:

[otohara]

41. Not to Mention

those 8 will have so many health issues for years to come.

[Darth_Kitten]

45. I'm obsessed about chocolate, but I don't eat 14 lbs of it per day.......

also, a 33 year old (nowhere near middle age IMO) who has no problems with either ovulation and/or giving birth does NOT need fertility treatments.

(actually a lot of people who think they are infertile and are subjecting themselves to expensive IVF treatments may actually be able to give birth naturally, but that's another story) The Fertility Lobby want more people to believe they cannot conceive naturally to line their pocketbooks.

[LisaL]

47. According to what is being reported, this woman was not able

to have children naturally. Apparently all her kids are through IVF.

[cornermouse]

48. Also, one of the 6 older children is autistic.

I don't know what she was thinking. ACcroding to CBS, her mom has already stated that when her daughter comes home from the hospital she's going back to her own home and her daughter will be on her own. I'd say that pretty well dooms her idea of raising 14 kids.

[LisaL]

51. It boggles my mind.

Most couples would think that six kids are more than enough. This was apparently an unmarried woman with six kids, living with her parents, history of bankruptcy in the family, and yet she wanted more. I imagine her mother had enough. The woman herself apparently is a graduate student. Who is taking care of all her kids when she is in school?
I would think someone would not be let to adopt that many cats or dogs by most shelters.

[cornermouse]

55. I think sooner or later the state

will have to step in and take custody of some of these kids. And I have to agree that if you tried to adopt 14 dogs and cats from a shelter someone would notice and start asking some serious questions.

[LisaL]

58. Now she would probably be able to make money out of it, because

she had 8 at one time. TV shows will come a calling.
aka "John and Kate plus 8."
"17 kids and counting."
Etc.

[Darth_Kitten]

68. The IVF success rate is pretty low at any age........

how many treatments did she have to get anyways?

[sfpcjock]

53. I guess they could have adopted...

I like gaybees better than that .

[JackRiddler]

61. ... is that maybe they should be on the street protesting ...

the lack of enforcement on the Miers and Rove subpoenas.

Or something.

Instead of worrying about tabloid fluff.

But hey, it's your thread!

[Catshrink]

62. The Duggars are still ahead with their 18.

Of course they didn't have them all at once.

[Liberal_in_LA]

63. She could easily surpass the Duggars with her next pregnancy.

[LisaL]

64. But John and Kate only have 8.

[proud2BlibKansan]

72. And Kate's a bitch

LOL

[Liberal_in_LA]

75. Really? I can't tolerate that show. It seems so boring.

[proud2BlibKansan]

76. I watch it cause the kids are so adorable

But Kate makes me nuts. She is an anal retentive bitch.

[Liberal_in_LA]

78. I don't understand how it works as the kids get older. Don't they need some privacy?

I mean I saw part of an ep where they were talking out one of the boys straining to go 'poop'. I worry when the parent's main source of income become the children. Can the children ever day "no more"?

[proud2BlibKansan]

79. Have you seen that new house?

It will take several seasons to pay for that.

But yeah, those kids are going to revolt before too long. One of the older ones is already a bit loony.

[Duer 157099]

73. "all the children are from the same sperm donor, but she did not identify him"

Ahah! The plot thickens.

So, she's being "paid" by someone to have these children. Who? The sperm donor, perhaps? What if he's got some sort of rare disease and foresees needing some sort of transplant in the future, and so wants to have plenty of potential donors? (think of how John Locke lost his kidney...)

I'm just sayin' it's possible.

[YanquiUXO]

77. What people are missing in the Octuplet story is...

THAT THIS ISN'T NEWS.