So . . . what has to happen first?

[HughBeaumont]

Do the consumers have to start spending again, or do corporations need to stop FIRING? Is one side simply waiting for the other side to make the first move, or is the country going to turn into one big Northeast Ohio before either one happens?

News flash. Unemployed, foreclosed, homeless and destitute people . . . can't and don't buy stuff.

Underemployed people . . . don't buy stuff.

People scared of losing their jobs . . . don't buy stuff.

People uncertain of their job and company status . . . don't buy stuff.

Why are they not buying stuff?

Simple. Thousand-plus layoff notices are happening DAILY, not just weekly. Layoffs only lead to more layoffs, which leads to no one (not even employed and scared people) buying stuff, which leads to more layoffs, etc.

Sooner or later, corporations, you're going to need this little thing we in the reality-based community call "BUSINESS".

AAaaaand, you can't GET business if no one's BUYING stuff, because they can barely afford the cost of living and are scared of getting fired. Or, worse yet, they're already fired and can't afford to buy anything; multiply this by 12 million.

So what needs to happen first?

I gotta tell you, bigwigs. You guys don't have a hell of a lot of options from where I'm sitting. Your discounts aren't working, your mass firings are only temporarily saving your precious bottom lines and leading to more layoffs in other areas of the economy, and you're sitting on the government dole (or using it to build plants overseas, give bonuses to your upper echelon or remodel your offices) rather than freeing up capital and lending like it was supposed to be used for.

Ever heard of the phrase "hiring freeze"? How about a "firing freeze"? Of course, that will mean one or two of your quarters might show a loss. Or not. After all, some companies planning layoffs made a profit last year. That would mean you'd have to take it on the chin and . . . suck it up. You know, just like all of US have to do in trying times.

Or are YOU all the only people whose lives CAN and MUST thrive and prosper at ALL times, no matter WHAT the cost to everything and anyone else?

Then again, you can simply not take my advice, think you can still run your businesses on the quarterly-profit-above-all, please-the-shareholder's-demands way of doing things and watch as this economy goes straight down the shitter, all from the cushy view at your comfy homes. Oh, and continue to buy luxury items which you would have anyway no matter HOW bad things go.

And for those few on here who say "not ALL wealthy people are monstrous bastards", "whut're they supposed tuh do, not cut jobs and close down?", "you think companies LIKE to fire people?"

First of all, I KNOW . . . there are benevolent rich people. Out there. Somewhere. But it's beyond argument that, compared to billionaires past (yes, I'm talking about the Robber Baron age), this set of wealthy people aren't even NEAR as benevolent or giving or understanding of their responsibility and role in society at large. For benevolence nowadays, there's Bill Gates, Buffet and Paul Allen. That doesn't make Gates a saint by any means, since he's a cheap-labor champion just like all the rest. After that, they're pretty much Jack Welch in a different suit.

Companies don't LOVE or HATE to fire people. That would imply it's personal. I think it's far worse than that. I think it's that they don't care one way or the other and see this as just the normal way of doing business, "this too, shall pass" and that's that. And that to me is a problem. In a corporation's canned layoff announcements, the words "tragic" and "unfortunate" come up quite often, but do they really mean it? PLEASE.

It's soulless, void of compassion and it's WRONG. It's lost productivity, more strain on the US treasury, more time and money lost with transition, make-up and or re-training, destroyed morale among the remaining workers and decimated economic conditions overall.

God, WHAT is the problem with thinking LONG TERM anymore? We're doing things completely back-asswards and yet still continue to operate in this short-term, make-profit NOW way of thinking. NOTHING is built from the top down. NOTHING. DEMAND creates work. DEMAND will happen if you give people a reason to bring it on.

[graywarrior]

1. I only buy limited food

I haven't bought stuff for I don't know how long.

[anonymous171]

2. Once unemployment reaches a certain level, tax cuts will stop being popular.

It is at that point that Obama should act. Nationalization of the failed financial institutions and serious HC reform should be at the top of his list.

[havocmom]

3. Buy only what you really need and only from companies that don't outsource

or have their 'headquarters' in a PO box on some island!

Buy seeds, grow veggies, help neighbors do same. Victory Gardens over corporate imported foods that don't get inspected enough. And, yes urban dwellers can garden. Got a window? Get a bag of potting soil, cut slit in it and toss in some seeds for greens.

Tell your newspaper, and congress that the laws HAVE to change to force corporations to stop dodging taxes, regulation (workers, product safety, finances) has to be imposed and money has to stop flowing to the top.

Work out co-operative ventures as much as you can.

Need is different that want. Buy only what you need. If we keep buying, they just keep taking. Until they are forced to change, nada improves.

[DJ13]

4. ........

[HughBeaumont]

12. Saving that one . . .

That site's a good one.

[HereSince1628]

5. Ok, I'll tell you...it's fairly straight forward...

Things must break and wear out.

Somethings like cars, for some but really, things like...clothes and essential equipment.

Its hard to ride the train to work in Chicago in your bare feet.
Its awkward to not wear underwear and you can only wear the wornout stuff for so long...
Barrels are not in fashion anywhere, so when the slacks and shirt wearout, well, you just must get more.

You can't run factories or farms with broken equipment, and stuff just wears out.
The 85% of folks still employed in the Rust Belt still want vegetables from Florida and Texas and California.
Brake-shoes on freight cars don't really last for many of those cross-country trips. They must be replaced.

That's why, historically speaking, demand picks up after 18 months or so. Surplus supplies in warehouses get used up and new stuff just must be made and sold.

Now I'll admit that a lot of the manufacturing is not in the US, but the demand is still going to be generated here when stuff wears out and breaks.

Creating demand is gonna happen because stuff just doesn't last forever.

So as I say, before "Things" get better a whole lot of other things must break or wear out.

[aquart]

7. We no longer have a tool and die industry. Reagan ditched it.

So we can't build factories are make parts anymore.

[HereSince1628]

8. Point taken, but still demand is still gonna come back as things break and wear out

That's why giving banks billions with no commitment to cycle it through borrowers just makes so much nonsense.

[Gregorian]

16. I have a degree in machine tool technology.

I hang out on a machine tool forum. And there are lots of talented people out there. We still know the tricks of the trade.

I never used my degree because I could make way more money roofing houses. And then buying and selling property.

I know we can retool.

But that doesn't answer what happened that caused us to get here. I think I know, but it's way too unpopular to discuss openly.

Where we go now? Inflation. Argh. We're in real trouble.

[onethatcares]

18. so what happens if we had to go head to head with let's say,

Red China? After the first salvo of missles and rockets, how long does it take to ramp up the steel industry to produce tanks and jeeps? Rifles and ammo? Or is a ground war out of the question? In my own thoughts, the United States as a nation could not produce things fast enough to keep up with just about any other major war making country on the globe due to the outsourcing and closing of our factories. What do the guys on that machine tool forum think?

Peace

[Gregorian]

20. Quite a lot of them are repubs.

I wouldn't trust what they think for an instant.

But it is an interesting scenario you present. I see things to be in a different context now. Primarily because of energy. Petroleum is ramping down.

I don't think military war is an option any longer. Financial war is what is happening.

As for tooling up, I'm sure we can do what we need to survive. But I honestly think the days of producing aircraft carriers is over.

Having said that, China is busy spending billions on their infrastructure. So they are ready, but for what I don't know. We're up against some big brick walls. Not the least of them is global warming.

I'm saying that we can tool up to do what we need, but the question is what do we need? I think we'll be busy surviving instead of waging war.

In a way I see all of this as good.

I think our biggest problem is that we have seven billion people who now need to simply live. And that's a very big problem.

If this seems rambling it's because I'm watching Doctor Who at the same time. :)

[Myrina]

10. What I don't get about the auto industry ...

... is really, how shortsighted are they?

Drive up and down any 'auto - mall' avenue in any city and you'll see more new and used cars sitting on the lot than could possibly be bought in a year's time. And with cars now lasting 5-7, heck sometimes 10 years, often with warranties to match, why in Goddess' name do they think any of that inventory would move?

They almost need to come up with a cyclical strategy that 1 year they'll build SUV's only ... the next, compacts only ... the next, family sedans only ... to keep the market from being glutted with shit that there simply isn't enough populace to purchase.

I don't have a marketing or economics degree, yet it seems really simple to me. Why don't they get it?!?!

:shrug:

[HereSince1628]

14. What goes through the heads of auto execs is a mystery n/t

[aquart]

6. Pass legislation with shark teeth and enforce it with perp walks in the nightly news.

Tell the execs that if they can't do the patriotic thing, we'll make them AND THEN DO IT. CUT OFF THE MONEY.

Hundreds of Americans could keep their jobs with ONE executive bonus.

GREED IS NOT GOOD.

[Myrina]

9. 'How bout they donate their salaries and options to the general salary fund?

Since 1 CEO makes as much as about 1000 hourly-workers, think how many jobs would be saved if 500 CEO's did the right thing for once?

[Waiting For Everyman]

11. Without stopping foreclosures and BKs, nothing will change.

We are wiping out too many people, too fast. And the machine won't slow down. It has to be STOPPED by law. Then... after a while... the economy will begin to recover - slowly. People don't overcome having their lives wiped out as fast it happens. These are lifetimes' work and building we're talking about so lightly.

Demand for 2/3 of our economy is driven by consumption for our homes, whether owned or rented. With home insecurity and loss, that demand is gone and it's going to affect sector after sector which indirectly depends on it... which means job loss, and the spiral continues.

We are in something like the 3rd consecutive wave of this now. And still, nothing is done to stop it. The longer we wait, the more cycles of it will happen, until nobody's employed anymore. What's the point of letting it go that far?

In general, there is just too much overpriced debt. It can't be paid on today's incomes, getting diminished more every day. Big DUH. But even some people here, are resistant to doing anything about it. I can't believe the stupidity. It's not as if they're immune from it. Nobody is, not anywhere in the world - thanks to the globalization which was just as stupid to begin with. But no, they don't listen. They still aren't listening.

---

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwTkptofHus

In the shuffling madess
Of the locomotive breath,
Runs the all-time loser,
Headlong to his death.
He feels the piston scraping --
Steam breaking on his brow --
Old Charlie stole the handle
And the train, it wont stop going --
No way to slow down...

[live love laugh]

13. "Thousand-plus layoff notices are happening DAILY, not just weekly." Not under Bush tho.

The DAY after the inauguration, we started getting hur by hour job loss reports.

WHY?

[Auggie]

15. Need to reinstate strict government oversight and regulation of business

But I wouldn't hold my breath. Corporate power and Congress are one-in-the-same. And that's not going to end until people learn to stop voting by pattern, celebrity, or fashion.

[LuckyLib]

17. And millions of middle class folks, secure in their jobs and houses, are simply rethinking

and re-evaluating their priorities and will not be -- buying stuff. Excessive consumerism may well be a thing of the past except for a few shopaholics among the monied class. Average folks? Reuse, recycle, buy only essential items that must be replaced -- lots of folks are hunkering down.

[dkofos]

19. Yes, we need a firing freeze.