I have to say this -- I find something unnatural and obscene about a woman

[CatWoman]

giving birth to 8 children.

I couldn't keep it in anymore.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

1. 8 implanted embryos.

:wtf:

[CatWoman]

6. it's just fucking

wrong!!

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

22. What I would like to know is...

Who the FUCK shoveled frozen embryos into her uterus with a coal scuttle and why he is not indicted. Like yesterday.

And I would say that woman has...ahem...some issues.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

30. Now, this is choice

if the woman wants to do it who are you to stop her?

If she wants an abortion who are you to stop her?

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

34. Would you not say that he choice was unwise and dangerous?

Have you seen some of the birth weights of those babies? Would you call her actions responsible, mature, even sane? Is making a choice of pregnancy a sport where one keeps score?

[LibraLiz1973]

71. You know who I am? I'm a fucking taxpayer who is paying to raise her FOURTEEN kids.

And I'm pissed.

At a certain point, you are allowed to stand up and say NO.

[spooky3]

89. to say nothing of the $ millions that the delivery was estimated to cost

the hospital.

[pipi_k]

121. Freedom of choice comes with responsibility

Abortion should be a choice used wisely. Not as a casual form of birth control. Responsibility. To do otherwise only gives the Anti-choice people ammunition to make their case seem valid.


Giving birth. A choice. That doesn't mean people should run around breeding indiscriminately like rabbits.


Having choices doesn't mean people should do whatever the hell they want to just because they can. Adults exercise their choices wisely.

[Carolina]

140. oh puhleeze

medical ethics and common sense should stop her because there is no way any one person can care for 8 infants PLUS 6 other children ages 2-7.

Your taxes will pay for these children's basic sustenance but in a modest home of 2-3 bedrooms with an unemployed and obviously sick mother, they will never get the appropriate individual attention all children deserve.

This CHOICE is fucking absurd.

[ima_sinnic]

164. everything in life is a "choice." so what does choice have to do with it?

are we now living in anarchy, where nobody has to think about the consequences, ethics, morality, or implications and effects on others of their choices?

hey, I make a "choice" to shut fourteen very young children into a closet for several years. who are you to stop me?

[uppityperson]

66. Most concise succinct post on the issue. Very good.

[ima_sinnic]

165. oops, sorry, delete--responding to wrong post

[Lance_Boyle]

107. she - the fertility doc who did this is a SHE. n/t

[LisaL]

131. And you know that how?

Has that doctor been identified?

[baldguy]

48. Fucking had nothing to do with it.

[Martin Eden]

51. Litters are for cats

(response inspired by your sig images)

[CatWoman]

58. hehehehe

[KoKo]

87. Do DU Females or GLBT'ers believe in the RIGHT TO CHOOSE?

Wasn't it HER Choice? It's her body.... Just as all our bodies are ours. Or, are they not? Do we all belong to some "Collective View" of what "society at the time" views as morality?

Aren't we being hypocrits about this woman? We here on Democratic Underground? :shrug:

[Ilsa]

115. I believe in Choice. But I also wonder about this woman's mental stability.

Now that some of the details are coming out, I have to wonder if she is fit enough to raise 14 kids on her own. One of her children is autistic. I have an autistic child, and he requires alot of attention and focus in our lives, as well as money.

[tnlefty]

122. I fully believe in choice, and my problem is with the doctor, er,

quack who did this. I was an infertility patient and my next treatment was to be Perganol (the risks were discussed with me in depth 3 times), harvesting eggs followed by a procedure called GIFT. The maximum number of eggs to be transferred was 3, and the risks of a multiple pregnancy of 3 were thoroughly discussed, also. I was also advised, "it's not as if you're having trouble getting pregnant, then with help you become pregnant. You will be at an elevated risk with or without a multiple pregnancy."

Fortunately, I didn't have to go through those procedures and my first was a preemie by 7 weeks, but it is a given that high order multiples are going to be premature by many weeks. This is a bigger picture for me than choice. With her already being the mother of 6, wouldn't transferring 1 or 2 zygotes have been more ethical of a responsible physician?

[BrklynLiberal]

133. That is the crux of the matter.

That physician is a total quack. You are totally right.

Would anyone go to the plastic surgeon that did this?

Just because a patient asks for something, and MAY be able to pay for it, is it the right/ethical thing for a doctor to do?

[tnlefty]

139. But even with this bizarre example, it's still different for me.

This woman is an adult and making decisions that only effect her and her appearance. With infertility treatments there is so much more to consider. :hi:

EDTA: If I had faced infertility treatments after having my first, I don't think that I would have done the more risky, invasive procedures. I lost 2 pregnancies between child 1 and 2, and with 2 and 3 (my choice) I had cerclages (sp?), home uterine monitors and times that I needed help with the child/children that I already had. I seriously considered not having child 3 (again, my choice) because I knew that there would be times that I couldn't be an effective mother to the children that I already had, but I had relatives (my Dad in particular) who could help in a short period of time when needed.

No way in hell I would have considered a multiple pregnancy though and there is no way in hell that my infertility specialist would've ever considered the crazy 8 instead of 3 and he was at the hospital to visit me before and after my boys were born. Oh, and in between the losses he consulted with many other physicians to try to determine the type of care that I would need if and when we decided to try it again. He's a good man and a great doc.

[we can do it]

137. Right To Choose - Having a Litter So She Can Have a Reality Show

What screwed up doctor would implant a wacko with no means to support the 6 kids she already has with 8 embryos?
We need to stop looking at these freaks and maybe they will stop instead of rewarding their behavior with free stuff and million dollar contracts.

[Carolina]

141. Her CHOICE is absurd and will

cost us all! How the hell can she raise 14 children? How the hell can she even care for 8 infants plus 6 other children aged 2-7. She is unemployed, unmarried, coming from a family that has already declared bankruptcy... Who the fuck is going to pay the damned hospital bills?!

Her CHOICE? Our (society's) responsibility!

[ima_sinnic]

168. duh, of course it was her "choice." did anyone think she did this against her will?

did someone force her to do it? apparently NOT. so what? why is "it was her choice" even relevant?
do you excuse child molesters and murderers with "oh, it was their choice to do that"?

she's free to do whatever she wants with "her body," but we're talking about 14 LIVES here, not somebody's "body."

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

135. 4 implanted embryos according to the physician.

[LisaL]

142. What physician?

Please, where is the link to support this?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

143. Octuplet Mom Wants $2 Million, Oprah, and Free Diapers

All of Suleman's children were born through in vitro fertlilization, and there is speculation that she lied to her current doctor in order to be allowed to have her last 4 frozen embryos be planted. The 4 became 8 due to her hyperstimulated reproductive system, but "in choosing to carry all eight to term, Ms Suleman ignored guidelines, risking both their health and her own."

http://laist.com/2009/02/02/octuplet_mom_wants_2_million_oprah.php

[LisaL]

146. Well, I think "speculation" is the key word there.

Where did that information came from? The author suggests she had 4 embryos implanted and they all split.
I find that hard to believe without knowing where that information came from.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

147. I saw a quote from the doctor yesterday that was the only link I could find that mentioned it.

[LisaL]

149. Her doctor has not been identified, as far as I know.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

153. I don't know what to tell you, I read it yesterday.

How would they know how many embryos she had left? That seems to indicate they either talked to the doctor or someone from the clinic.

David

[LisaL]

154. What did you read yesterday?

I have no idea what they "know," or who "they" are.
If her four embryos had split, she should have four sets of identical twins. That would be incredibly unusual, to say the least.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

157. I already told you.

The quote that I read was from a doctors name that I can't recall and it essentially said, The 4 became 8 due to her hyperstimulated reproductive system, but chose to carry all eight to term. Maybe it was from a doctor that had nothing to do with the case, like I said I don't know what else to tell you. Feel free to research it all you want, frankly I find all the speculation a little silly.

David

[LisaL]

158. I have no desire to "research this."

The doctor who implanted the embryos in her has not been identified, as far as I know.
The speculation that she had four embryos implanted that all split is just a speculation at this point.
Furthermore, 4 embryos splitting would have resulted in 4 sets of identical twins.
How likely is that?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

159. I have no idea I'm a medic not a geneticist.

I do know that her mom, who pretty clearly thinks her daughter is crazy, said that she had far fewer than 8 embryos implanted. That has been widely reported.

David

[BlooInBloo]

2. Obviously you're anti-woman.

:P

I still love ya tho!

:loveya:


EDIT: It's definitely the likely winner of the "Sure You Can, But WHY? 2008 Award".

[CatWoman]

8. however,

I AM pro-Bloo :)

:loveya:

[dysfunctional press]

3. it IS unnatural- the embryos were implanted.

did anyone try to claim that it was "natural"...?

and isn't this a question that's better left up to the fine folks at harpo productions?

[valerief]

9. It's amazing what the anti-science, anti-choice people can rationalize as natural. nt

[CatWoman]

13. I am neither of those you describe

[valerief]

17. I didn't think you were. I was talking about the anti-science, anti-choice

people who talk about God's will and then have a gazillion embryos implanted in them. An abortion is unnatural but the litter-fest is natural to them.

[Warren DeMontague]

92. Actually, the anti-choice movement is generally against IVF, too.

I think you're confused.

[ChickMagic]

110. Warren

The anti-choice people I've spoken with don't know jack about biology.
Particularly reproductive biology. One guy I was pallin' around with
was totally against abortion, but IVF was okie dokie. Once I explained
to him what happens during IVF he decided he was anti-IVF as well.

He was also against selective abortion. When I explained to him that
having 6-8 fetuses was unnatural for women because of the number of
breasts. Having that many fetuses to share one food source in vitro
would make it highly likely that 2 or more would have pretty harsh
handicaps that could even make them die, he decided that selective
abortion might be okay. Now he's all for choice.

They can and do change their minds once provided with information. The
difficulty is that most aren't willing to listen, much less learn.

[Warren DeMontague]

113. I agree. From my experience, they haven't really thought their positions all the way through. nt

[CatWoman]

10. I don't care if it was shake and bake

it's just fucking wrong!!

[dysfunctional press]

16. did i say it wasn't?

:shrug:

[CatWoman]

18. you live to fight

and that's a good thing.

within it's limits.

[BlooInBloo]

19. BWAHAHAHAAH!!!! I'm sooooo stealing that.

[SmileyRose]

53. me too.

it's perfection.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

25. It wasn't "shake and bake".

Why? Cause no guy can stand there grinnin' like a mule eatin' briars and say "and I hay-ulped!". That's why.

[malaise]

60. Ditto n/t

[valerief]

4. Yeah, they just put a comforter in the closet, set her in there, and checked

back every hour or so. I would think eating all those human placentas would be quite filling after birthing a litter of eight.

[madokie]

5. She couldn't either

;-)

[leftstreet]

7. I thought Sarah Palin already had her 15 minutes of fame

:P

[Raksha]

11. It is unnatural and obscene.

Nature left to her own devices NEVER does this--not in humans anyway.

[kickysnana]

12. It took Mom, Dad and Me (grandma) to keep the gson 2 1/2 in check last night.

and he still manged to run over and put his mittened hand in the fountain last night on the way out.

In his defense it was a birthday party and it was very close to bedtime.

[Critters2]

14. Now, imagine 8 of 'em. Make that 14!

:crazy:

[CatWoman]

15. LOL

I spent election night with Mr. and Mrs. Ulysses.

Their little Chris set the house ablaze with his energy.

He even had the cat running for cover :rofl:

[dysfunctional press]

20. yeah- but the octo-mom is a childcare EXPERT- she's even gonna get a tv show for it...

and make MILLIONS of dollars, and be ADORED by everyone...

oops...sorry. i guess i started slipping into that crazy lady's delusion.

[eilen]

56. TV show?

Read Reality Show. Then the entire country can watch her humiliate herself. Later, after syndication, the whole world. The Japanese may want to draft her for their babymaking campaign though.

[Skittles]

21. I'm thinking of that comic who said to that gal

who said she had a lot of children because, "I like kids" - he responded, "I like my cigar but I take it out once in a while." :rofl:

[Aristus]

23. Groucho Marx. She said: "Well, I love my husband..." and then his famous remark.

For years, it was believed to be an urban legend that he said it. Then a recording from the radio program turned up, and it proves that he actually did say it. :-)

[Hardrada]

38. I saw a video of this. It was on Groucho's TV show.

[pokerfan]

105. Snopes claims it's false

But if you saw a video, it should be fairly easy to confirm.

http://www.snopes.com/radiotv/tv/grouchocigar.asp

[Hardrada]

116. Yeah, I still remember the dopey guy saying how much he loved

his wife and Groucho raising his eyebrows! The video or kinescope is out there somewhere. It was not the original show either but a compilation of funny TV moments (from live TV).

[pokerfan]

118. You should contact Snopes

They won't change it on your word alone but you could at least let them know that there is a video out there somewhere.

[BrklynLiberal]

126. It was on a PBS Bio of Groucho recently. Showed it in black and white.

[BrklynLiberal]

125. Groucho Marx said that.

[undergroundpanther]

24. I think having 8 kids is

WTF?? .How on Earth can these parents afford their upkeep? Are they super rich?

Why couldn't they adopt some kids? There are tons of kids who need a permanent home.

Oh that's right, they are not her and her husbands property and won't carry on the family name.

At some point having kids begins to look more like parental greed than love of children.

[valerief]

29. It is parental greed. "Look at the mini-me!" nt

[MiniMe]

59. Hey Hey, watch it with the name calling

:evilgrin:

[valerief]

109. LOL!!!!!! I feel sooooooo embarrassed now! nt

[Kitty Herder]

36. A lot of people have too many kids because of religious pressure.

They feel that they're not good Mormons or Catholics, or whatever if they don't breed like rabbits. At least, that's what I see happening where I live. (I live in Utah, which has a birthrate much higher than the rest of the nation. There are several inordinately large families in my neighborhood.) It makes me more angry at the institutions than at the families who succumb to that pressure. Most of them can't handle that many kids, but they do it anyway. I'm sure their choices would be different if it weren't for the religious pressure.

[Common Sense Party]

40. I'm LDS and we have 3 kids.

I've never felt even the slightest pressure to have more.

We were going to stop after two, but we had a little surprise.

[Kitty Herder]

42. I see you live in Heber.

I have friends from Heber and they've told me horror stories you wouldn't believe. On top of that, I can't imagine the pressure in Heber is much less than that I experienced when I was LDS and living in Orangeville, UT. (I'm still in Orangeville, but don't consider myself LDS anymore, so they can take their opinions and shove them.) So I have to doubt the veracity of your statement. Unless you're just not susceptible to pressure.

Edited to add for clarity: Your experience must be very different from those of others I know from Heber City and from my own experience being LDS in a small Utah town, or you're being a bit disingenuous. Perhaps lying to yourself? Maybe you didn't take seminary in high school? Or Institute in college? Skipped Sunday School all through adolescence? I dunno.

[Common Sense Party]

94. It's always an enjoyable experience to be called a liar

by some anonymous person on the internet.

[Kitty Herder]

96. Dude, I'm just sayin' your experience doesn't jive with mine or that of anyone else I know.

It's entirely possible that you somehow escaped those pressures. It occurs to me that males may not internalize those messages as deeply as females. (Edited to add: Although my brother would argue otherwise.)

But I also know how much I had to lie to myself when my internal values and the LDS church's values didn't mesh. The cog-dis is strong.

[Common Sense Party]

98. That's not all you were saying.

Your experiences were undoubtedly different than mine and my wife's. Fine. But not once, never, in any way, were we pressured by family members, other church members, or ecclesiastical leaders to have a bigger family. My wife would say exactly the same thing.

Do I know some families with 7 or 8 kids? Yes, a few. I've lived in four different states, and I probably knew ten families that had that many children (out of perhaps a couple hundred LDS families we have known). Most of those parents themselves came from large families, so perhaps that was what they were used to, and what they themselves sought. I don't know.

I know lots of families with 3 or 4 kids. Some wanted to have more and couldn't. Some were stressed out with how many they already had. I know a few families with one or two children. Everyone's mileage may and will vary.

It's entirely possible that different people, in different families, even though they live in the same community and are members of the same faith, can, indeed, have different experiences. When the anecdotal evidence you have doesn't jive with the anecdotal evidence that another person has, it's really not necessary or thoughtful to insinuate that the other person is a liar.

Good day.

[Kitty Herder]

99. How do you explain this:

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0763849.html

Utah has the highest birth rate of any state in the nation. Care to explain why?

[Common Sense Party]

100. Umm...maybe because we enjoy the act of procreation?

I know this may be a difficult concept for you to grasp, but: some people LIKE and WANT large families. And they do so without any external pressure, arm-twisting or coercion!

[Kitty Herder]

101. For some mysterious reason, Utahns like to procreate more than everybody else?

For no reason? There has to be a reason. Could the reason have anything to do with all those little spirit children waiting in heaven to get bodies in a big hurry before Jesus comes back?

Edited to add: Are you a convert by chance?

[LanternWaste]

108. I imagine that everyone will cite...

I imagine that everyone will cite anecdotal evidence that better validates our opinions...

[CrispyQ]

45. I had a very close friend

who had a very difficult time conceiving. I asked if they would consider adoption. "Oh no! We might get a homosexual child."

She used to be a tolerant & loving Christian woman. Then she married a zealot & in a few short years she became a zealot too, not as bad as him, but it sure put a damper on our relationship. She went on to conceive & had three children. The oldest, about 9, is the apple of her eye, interested in politics & likes only liberal candidates! }(

[DutchLiberal]

73. I hope the kid turns out to be homosexual as well.

[ima_sinnic]

166. lol! my thought exactly! (nt)

[texastoast]

26. Not an ounce of foresight

FIRST, the kids won't have enough parental attention. Kids in big litters like that end up raising each other. SECOND, before anyone can have that many kids, there should be a requirement for an environmental impact study. THIRD, how selfish to bring more into the world when so many already here are so in need. What about all those Appalachian children? The African orphans? The poor in Calcutta, or whatever it's called now. Somebody needs to say something and CW, I'm just so glad you did.

[Hekate]

27. With the implanted embryos and all, and she a quite-young and fertile woman. I agree.

This is just flat-out wrong. I suspect that grandma doesn't know what hit her. I also suspect that the proud mom has got a screw loose. Somewhere in this sensational story is a sidebar on medical malpractice.

Oh, and by the way, I brought garlic butter for the :popcorn: because there sure are a lot of DUers who vehemently disagree with you and me.

Hekate

[Enrique]

28. cats do it

do you think cats are unnatural too? ;-)

[valerief]

31. Even educated fleas do it. nt

[CatWoman]

32. cats are not human

oh.......

wait...................

:)

[WorseBeforeBetter]

79. Do cats march on down to the clinic...

for in vitro fertilization?

[LisaL]

156. Most cats don't need any help. LOL.

[Triana]

33. ditto that, same here...n/t

[Rowdyboy]

35. If God sentenced me to hell it would be me and 14 babies under the age of eight....

This woman is seriously sick.

With 6 babies under the age of 7 you pay to have 8 embryos implanted? Do what?

[Qanisqineq]

37. I agree -- unnatural and obscene

I can't help but think she did it for attention.

[pengillian101]

144. I can't help but think she did it for attention.

I can't help but think she did it for MONEY! How much does California pay per month for this type of situation? Multiply monthly state benefits x 14 kids. Plus she wants $2M TV coverage. She most certainly is delusional.

Grandma said she was moving out, Grandpa is returning to Iraq.

How can Mom possibly cope alone with 14 kids seven years old and younger in a 2 or 3 bedroom bungalo? Once her folks are out of the picture, this is really scary.

Alert California suicide watch. This is a disaster going to happen unless the state of CA steps in.

[Duer 157099]

39. A person can't even legally own that many pets

unless they are a kennel.

That's what I don't get, why so many thinks it's ok to regulate the number of pets we can have, but not kids.

Also, aren't there regulations about the number of bedrooms one must have per child? Surely there's a law against having 14 kids in a 2 bedroom home?

[EFerrari]

41. There's something up with this woman.

And something MORE wrong with her doctor. :grr:

[jhrobbins]

43. Did y'all see Kate (from John& Kate+8) when she was pregnant-it was unbelievable how

enormous she was and that was with sextuplets. I cannot imagine 8. Are there pictures (I know - it's gross, but I can't help it, I wanna see)

[Liberal_in_LA]

52. I wonder if 8 one pounders = 1 eight pound baby. ???

[Hekate]

85. No, because each one comes with a placenta and its own sac of amniotic fluid

A woman carrying so many should expect to gain 80 - 100 pounds, and her kidneys have to be able to process all their waste products. The human uterus cannot carry that load to term.

Hekate

[Le Taz Hot]

44. I'm with you there.

Does she have the right? Well, yes. But it reeks of absolute narcissism in it's worst manifestation. In order to do this she had to absolutely ignore the impact on the existing children, on the individuals in the new litter, on her family, on the environment, on the social services system, on the health of multiple-birth children, or on the taxpayers (who are paying for all of this). Does she have the legal right? Yes. But there is a moral imperative here that this "mother" is either completely unaware of or just flat out doesn't care about.

[AngryAmish]

46. That is where you and the Pope agree!

[4 t 4]

47. just think that's 160 fingers and toes

in her tummy, yucky not natural

[lunatica]

49. I'm still having trouble getting my mind to wrap aroung the birth, er... births

I mean, during pregnancy how does one sit, lie down, or just get out of a chair? And what about having to pee so much because of the weight (even of one baby) on her bladder? How big was her stomach? How much movement was there in her uterus?

I'm just recalling my own pregnancy with one baby so I have something to compare it too and I still can't imagine what it could have been like. My brain is definitely boggled.

:wow:

[mnhtnbb]

50. Duh. Women weren't built to have litters.

[noamnety]

54. Is "natural" a criteria for something here?

I had a c-section, after having labor induced. Certainly wasn't "natural."

Other things that aren't "natural" - chemo for cancer patients, organ transplants, epi-pens for people with allergies, asthma inhalers, birth control.

I would like to suggest that you use more precise language, because I doubt your objection is really that you oppose "unnatural" medical procedures.

[davsand]

55. Just because it is her right does NOT remove the "ick factor" from it. I agree.

Just being physically able doesn't make it feel any more comfortable, either.

I dunno, none of my cats have EVER had litters that big and THAT is saying a lot. Seems to me that nature tends to USUALLY limit the size of the litter to the number of available teats--at least once birthed, anyhow. You can link it back to an evolutionary thing, really, if you think about it. The weaker ones die off in the food competition and thus the "lesser" genetic specimens don't pass on any existing flaws in the genetic code.

Humans kind of mess with that when they add in artificial and extra food sources. I'm not saying we need to starve baby kitties or puppies, or human babies, but I AM saying that the argument that litters of human babies are somehow "natural" just doesn't cut it for me on a lot of levels-ya know?

I think the thing that creeps me out the most in all this with this woman is the feeling I get that these kids are gonna be some sort of commercial enterprise for this lady. Many years ago I read a book about the Dionne babies and what they lived thru as "commercial" products. I wouldn't want that for myself or for any child of mine. I just can't be that cruel.

YMMV, but I do think this really brings up (yet again) a lot of good ethical discussions for the world.


Laura

[Javaman]

57. "Welcome to McFamilys R Us, may I take your order?"

she: I would like four kids to go!

squawk box: did you say four kids?

she: yes, four.

squawk box: would you like to super size that order?

she: um, sure, why not?

squawk box: fries with that?

she: um, er, hmmm, naaa, I better not.

squawk box: anything to drink?

she: doesn't it come with milk?

squawk box: the regular does but not the super.

she: um, okay, better give me the super sized barrel of milk

squawk box: okay, that's one instant family, super sized with a barrel of milk, anything else?

she: nope, that's it. Too bad, I can only do this once every 9 months.

squawk box: um, yeah, too bad.

[Missy Vixen]

61. I'm with you

I'm in my late 40's. One of my girlfriends is pregnant and 44. I can't even imagine one, let alone eight.

[mnhtnbb]

65. Be very sure your girlfriend gets treated like the high risk she is.

Seriously, this is true whether it's her first pregnancy or not, but especially true if it's her first.

I have a girlfriend who delivered her first when she was 44 (she'd had miscarriages)and the delivery
turned into a high risk nightmare, despite being in a hospital. Just being in a community hospital
is not enough for a high risk pregnancy. Please, talk to her about her delivery plans and the
ability of the hospital where she delivers to take care of high risk mothers and infants.

[Missy Vixen]

67. mmhtnbb, bless you

She's a lot more famous than I am, ;-) so I know that she has the best of medical care. I'm sure she's also having this baby the same place Bill Gates' wife had their children, so she's in good hands there. Her other two kids are pre-teens now.

Obviously, I never wanted kids of my own, but I have three girlfriends who are currently PG and in their late 30's/early 40's. I gotta' hand it to them. (Believe it or not, one of my friends had a beautiful baby boy early this morning. We're celebrating!)

I will definitely talk to my mid-40's friend about what's happening with the birth, and you are VERY sweet to think of her!

[JitterbugPerfume]

62. that woman is f'n nuts

and this is wrong on so many levels.If I was that grandma, I would leave the country ,but the sad thing is she probably will raise them because they are her grandbabies in spite of everything her idiot daughter did.

[Cerridwen]

63. Funny that. I was once told something very similar because I chose

not to have children. "There must be something wrong with you that you don't want children. It's natural for women to want children. It's not 'normal' not to want to children."

That's probably one of the reasons I try not to pass judgement on others' choices though I may not have made the same choice(s) myself.

I also support universal, single-payer healthcare which I why I'm dismayed when I see people arguing against having to support this woman's "litter." Should we some day succeed in getting such healthcare services, many of us will be supporting others' choices with which we disagree. I still think it's better than for-profit healthcare.

I also support a working and sane welfare system. I cringe when I see people posting they don't want to support this woman and her "litter." There's a faint odor of "welfare queen" in those posts.

Then there's the "you shouldn't have 'em if you can't support them" theme. Yeah, that sounds repub to me as well. Something about putting an economic litmus test on the "right" to parent just bugs the crap out of me. Especially during a time when so many people's economic situation is so threatened by things not always in their control.

Of course, all the things that I've listed above have to do with changing the way our systems are run and the way they intersect with our "conventional 'wisdom'" and that's not always popular to address.

I do find it truly entertaining (in the category of watching a train wreck) to see how quickly many choose to regulate reproductive medicine based on this epidemic of one.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

72. But this was in her control.

According to the grandmother, the mother is "obsessed" with having children, and all 14 were conceived through in-vitro fertilization.

She's a single mother -- no significant other to help financially or with child-rearing.

She already has 6 children (1 set of twins and 1 child with autism).

She's most likely unemployed, and will remain so.

She lives with her parents in a 1,500 sf home with 2 (or 3) bedrooms. That's 17 adults/children in a 1,500 sf home. (Are there laws about the number of children per bedroom?)

46 medical staff were required to deliver the babies. I've seen a price tag as high as $800,000 (birth, neonatal intensive care, etc.) -- who is paying for that?

And perhaps what bothers me most: "Studies have shown that the tendency toward prematurity and low birth weight in multiple-birth babies puts them at greater risk for a variety of complications, including respiratory problems at birth, cerebral palsy, birth defects, sensory disorders and even death. These risks increase as the number of babies in the multiple birth increases." We know who will be paying for this: her kids.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/WomensHealth/Story?id=6774471&page=1

Based on what information I have, the mother seems incredibly selfish, unbalanced and irresponsible. And I'm all for regulating reproductive medicine so that something like this doesn't happen again...

[Cerridwen]

82. "this was in her control." "Ay, there's the rub."

We argue on the one hand that a woman's reproductive decisions should be her own, then we denigrate one who makes choices with which we don't believe and which we consider too "high a price" to pay.

Oh, we can find manifold justifications for criticizing such decisions, the cost of raising children, the amount of room they have, the health of the children (Who will think of the children?!!!!), the cost to society, her "fitness" as a mother, her marital situation, and so on.

What we never seem to examine is the culture and society in which we live and the "norms" applied to women's reproductive choices.

Had this woman been married - to a man - and well off financially, this story would have been a blip on the radar. But she doesn't fit the mold, does she? She doesn't conform to the image we hold in our head of the women who should have responsibility for their reproductive choices.

My previous post was about the challenge this particular story poses our "conventional wisdom," and our collective acceptance of "norms" and "standards" and "acceptable" behavior and our collective double-standards.

Unless you think we'll have a sudden outbreak of single women, living at home, without a noticeable means of support, who have 3 or more children, running out to find the nearest fertility clinic to help them have 8 (or more) additional children, I'm not sure I see the need to regulate based on this one instance.

[Marrah_G]

112. This woman is REALLY unstable Cerridwen

There was an interview with her mother. The young woman is disturbed. VERY disturbed. She probably should not be raising any children.

The doctors, the parents...... too many people allowed this to happen.

[Cerridwen]

114. Um, the mother's not necessarily playing with a full deck either.

Her criticism of her daughter began with complaining that she was single and having children i.e., she wasn't a "traditional" woman in the same way her mother is "traditional." She called her own daughter obsessed. Obsessed, unless it's diagnosed base on some criteria, can be relative. Yeah, I'm not taking "mom's" word on anything at this point.

I'd also remind you that we have a history in this country of "authorities" deciding who can or cannot have children based on their level of mental health or presumed lack thereof. What once was considered immoral/sinful was cause for declaring one "insane" or "unbalanced;" and some other words, too, which we no longer use (thank heavens!) such as "idiot," "retarded," "imbecile," and others.

In one article I read, the parents bought Nadya the house she lives in then moved in with her after they file bankruptcy yet I keep reading she lives with her parents as though she moved in with them. The reporting is all over the spectrum and I don't trust much of it.

Now, having said all that, my points are that we don't know the full story and I don't trust the media not to play havoc with it, one person's obsessed is another person's "normal," we have a lot of double standards playing out in these threads and in the media, and I really don't want to see people calling for regulations of reproductive health procedures based on a sensationalized anomaly.

I want women to have full control over their reproductive health and family planning; in whatever manner that works for them. That means I don't get to apply my standards to their life. It especially means I don't get to make laws based on my standards. If that means some "Quiverfull" woman is having 20 kids and making big bucks on cable TV or another is having "litters" of children while guilty of being single and not doing exactly what I would do, then I get to deal with that; so that when some woman needs to terminate her 1st, 2nd, or 15th pregnancy for whatever her reasons are, then so be it.

If we lived in a sane society in which cradle to grave health care and education were rights, businesses and Madison Avenue honored the family as much as they pay lip service to, families didn't have to rely on the whims of Wall Street and the economy, and people kept their damned noses out of women's (and men's) crotches, this would barely be a blip on the radar. There would also be much less fuss if Nadya were "properly" married to some wealthy man and fit some box known as "normal" or "traditional."

BTW, the last article I read said the babies are all doing well.

[Marrah_G]

134. Yes they are doing well being cared for in the hospital

If my daughter was doing this I would be incredibly disturbed by it.

I think alot of things failed. The girls parents. The doctors.

The ones who will pay for it are the babies.

Do I think we should legislate. No

That doesn't mean one has to agree with the actions.

Especially when those actions will be damaging to those children.

She is bringing them home to a tiny house, her parents are leaving. 14 children, one mother, tiny house and she is demanding everyone else pay for her choice. Choices she made knowing full well she could not afford them financially and should have realized (if she is sane) that emotionally, mentally it would also be impossible.

[Cerridwen]

171. You know, Marrah_G, I'm pretty sure you and I agree on this

almost point by point.

My biggest point was some of the double-standards that started rearing their ugly heads in these threads.

This sensationalised story is the kind used to stir up the public about issues which rarely happen and then are used to justify certain draconian measures to "protect women from themselves." These kinds of stories are used time and again to remind us that "women are hysterical" and can't be "in control" of their own bodies.

As others have noted, there are already ethics regulations in place to address just this type of situation yet they weren't followed. Unfortunately, for every regulation and law, there will be a case in which someone breaks the law or ignores the regulation. Adding additional regulation or law doesn't stop it from happening again; it just gives us more and more law to try and track.

This story is sad on so many levels. I could argue that this is what happens when a young girl is raised to believe her only "value" is child-bearing. Why then would anyone be surprised that someone might decide that "if one gives me value, what about 2? Or 6? Or 14? Think of the "value" I have now." I could also argue that this is what could be expected when the media and viewing audience has shown time and again that there're big bucks to be made for this kind of action. I wonder, did the parents of the first large multiple-birth babies contact the media with their story or did the media contact them to make ratings from the unusual. Reality TV on steroids.

I've read elsewhere that she was using the remaining "eggs" from previous IVF and when they all "took" she decided not to selectively reduce the number. The pro-birther crowd loves that angle of it. Must be hard for them to reconcile that with her status on welfare and now they'll be paying for those babies with their tax dollars. Much as those here who support UHC but might have to pay for these types of cases should we have it. I wonder how the pro-birthers feel about the fact that Nadya is either Palestinian or Iraqi (depending on which story you read)? I believe they generally prefer their icons be more "white" in their skin color.

(Heading off on a tangent here) I've a couple of friends who just love being pregnant. Some prefer the toddler "phase." Others can't quite connect with their children until they're pre-teen or teen. Some not until they're adults. If we weren't so damned sure our model of the "nuclear family" were the be-all and end-all of the way things *should* be done, we'd have more room for more women to have children and to care for them in ways we can't even quite imagine (well, I can imagine but it's considered quite "out there" and is far too controversial for the US mind that insists "our way is #1!). Not to mention the opportunities that might open for more nurturing men. The models of "norm" we have in this country are very limited and unimaginative.

Marrah, I can't imagine you would raise your daughter to think the only value she has is that of an incubator on legs. I wonder about Nadya. What did her "traditional" mother teach her? It's funny I've seen no one question that. What did she learn from her father about her role as a woman? No one's questioned that either.

Oh well, there are a lot of angles to be discussed about this story. My first reply was more about the double-standards and hypocrisy I saw posted and read elsewhere. I don't care for paternalism; I don't care if it comes from the "left" or "right."

If Nadya succeeds in "making big bucks" off this, does that say more about her or more about a society that revels in, and provides ratings, celebrity, and advertising dollars for, the unusual, the "extreme," the anomalous? These kinds of stories cause me to grab my pro-choice mirror and look very closely at my values and standards and if they work for me. I hope it will for others though based on some of the things I've read, it appears many have broken or discarded their mirrors. (Not aimed at you Marrah. Just a "sweeping generalization" :) )

[Marrah_G]

173. I think we do agree

I keep trying to wrap my brain around this story and each day it gets more bizarre. There are just so many things wrong, so many people who could have stopped this and did nothing. A society that provides such horrible mixed messages. In the end the children will suffer, the mother will suffer (although she did this to herself), her family will suffer (they enabled their child). But the doctor, the tv producers, the media...they will not suffer.

Just thinking about it gives me a head ache.

I am still pro-choice, that has never changed, but that doesn't mean one cannot scream at the top of our lungs when someones choice so glaringly hurts innocent victims.

I support her right to choose. I also support my right to scream that I think she is a selfish and disturbed human being who should not be raising any children.

[LisaL]

138. They are premature.

I doubt the doctors can predict right now what kind of health issues they might have due to being premature.

[Cerridwen]

172. Very true.

Yet another ethical conundrum having to do with "premie" births.

I'll leave others to debate that one.

[BrklynLiberal]

127. It is actually already regulated. Medical ethics dictate that no more than 3 embryos

be implanted during an IVF procedure. The doctor who did this procedure violated those ethics...and perhaps the part of the Hippocratic oath that says "First, DO No Harm!"
That doctor can be prosecuted for what he did.

[ferrous wheel]

78. Doesn't matter what the healthcare system details are, the public will end up supporting

all 8 (or 14) of her bastard children one way or another. Same pants, different pocket.

[Cerridwen]

81. Thank you for so eloquently proving one of my points...

and an additional point I had in mind but did not state.

"bastard children"? You do realize this is the 21st and not the 11th century, right?

[spoony]

80. Yes, you're right on

"There's a faint odor of "welfare queen" in those posts."

and you summed up my feelings perfectly with:
"I also support universal, single-payer healthcare which I why I'm dismayed when I see people arguing against having to support this woman's "litter." Should we some day succeed in getting such healthcare services, many of us will be supporting others' choices with which we disagree. I still think it's better than for-profit healthcare."

[Cerridwen]

83. Thank you.

There was something else I meant to include but didn't. Fortunately, one of the responses to my post reminded me of another "whiff" I noticed; that of the "moral" judgement that single women have no business having children. Thank heavens this woman had 6 so we could use her as an extreme example and not have to examine that little gem of "morality" known as the "fallen woman" or "used goods." /sarcasm

[TahitiNut]

64. I regard it as child abuse.

She has SIX children receiving marginal care as it is and now places them, and EIGHT more, in jeopardy.

She seems to think children exist to serve HER emotional/psychological needs rather than vice versa. That's just abusive, imho.

[havocmom]

68. Second the nut!

Children do not thrive on neglect and neglect will be the best these kids can hope for.

[4 t 4]

69. agree 100%

people need to put the child in her case children first not visa versa which so many people do. You must ask what is best for this child.

[LisaL]

95. Six kids. She is apparently living with her parents, divorced,

and it has been reported her mother declared bankruptcy. Apparently one of the six kids is autistic. In this situation, why deliberately get impregnated with more children?
My mind is boggled.

[BrklynLiberal]

130. Absolutely.

[LibraLiz1973]

70. The fact that she already has 6, lives with her parents in a 2 bedroom house,

and has no one else to help her makes me ill.
It shows a blatant disregard for the health and welfare of those children.

[KoKo]

88. Many of our ancestors had 12 or more kids in two room shacks...

and there are families all over the world whose bathroom is the "great outdoors" and the families live with Grandparents, Aunts and Uncles in two room shacks along with double digit amounts of kids.

It's only unusual in Globilized Upscale Economies where folks can afford more luxuries. Babies have been born in worse and survived and many of them have done incredible things with their lives, achieving degrees, accolades and honors. Some have been lawyers, some physicians and many politicians and others.

Talk to Senator Robert Byrd about how he grew up in West Virginia. Read his books. There are many more who turned out "just fine." Even with parents that many of us would find errant, deranged or substandard with our own ethical, moral or "enlightened views" about what a family is and how one raises children.

How arrogant we are.

[LisaL]

103. Our ancestors didn't have eight kids at the same time through IVF.

:eyes:

[Carolina]

148. touche!

So glad you pointed that out. How blithely some posters ignore the facts that this is a case of science gone awry with a wacko mother and an ethical fertility MD!

[LibraLiz1973]

106. Just because it CAN be done does not mean it SHOULD be.

No disrespect intended to Senator Byrd, but he grew up in a different time, both globally AND economically.
When Senator Byrd grew up, it was still safe for children to play outside without much supervision.
Today, children are molested, raped, kidnapped, tortured and killed on a daily basis. It helps their
odds of survival if their parent(s) can keep an eye on them. How much of an eye do you think this ONE woman
is going to be able to keep on her fourteen children?

[antigone382]

120. Statistically the types of abuse and exploitation you describe are not more prevalent...

...than they were in Senator Byrd's day...they have always existed worldwide at roughly the same or even higher rates than today. We are more aware of such crimes now because the media shines a spotlight on them due to their shock value.

[Mike 03]

74. Me too, although part of me feels like it's not my business.

When I saw a picture of her house, I knew something seemed wrong.

And what is the situation with her fertility doctors? Who allowed this?

[ferrous wheel]

75. Unless she's got 8 tits, I agree with you absolutely!

...

[Mike 03]

76. The other thing about having eight at once...

All of their financial needs will come due simultaneously.

They will all need a car at the same time.

They will all go to college at the same time.

That is a HUGE financial burden.

[Blue-Jay]

77. I can't work up any real anger about this.

On one hand, I have a real distaste about couples who pump out as many kids as possible. I don't think that's a Good Idea in the general scheme of things.

On the other hand, I strongly agree with their right to shit out as many kittens as they feel necessary.

[Withywindle]

84. Thanks for this post.

I admit it too - I feel disgust and revulsion. It makes my skin crawl.

There are all sorts of politer social reasons why I think this is a BAD IDEA, but the reason why I'm having trouble with this debate is that I just can't get past the ICK.

[Usrename]

86. It would be a weird thing to wake up to, if you ask me.

I had this dream one time where the nurse came into the waiting room where I was hanging out with all the other expecting fathers and told me "Conratulations, you are now the proud father of fifty-two three-inch babies" ...and then I woke up in a panic. It seemed so real. :)

[AnnieBW]

90. She'd better not be African-American

because if she is, she's going to go from a poster child for "Quiver-Full" to a "welfare queen having all of those babies to collect welfare" in the blink of an eye.

[Cerridwen]

91. Look closer at some of the DU posts. n/t

[WorseBeforeBetter]

93. This article states that the grandfather is Iraqi.

"Last week her father said he would return to his native Iraq to work as a translator and driver."

But I guess we'll find out when/if she appears on Oprah (who saw THAT coming?):

Octuplets’ mother wants Oprah to turn her into a $2m TV star
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article5627531.ece

But you're right.

(This is rich: "Nadya Suleman, 33, plans a career as a television childcare expert after it emerged last week that she already had six children before giving birth on Monday.")

[Carolina]

150. Octomom's Dad is Iraqi, Mom is white

Believe me, if the octomom were African American, we'd have known it by now since the media would surely have played up the welfare queen angle.

Whittier, CA demographics show it is largely (>50%) Hispanic with the second highest group being Whites. Blacks are only ~1% of the population.

[AnnieBW]

162. She's Iraqi?

BillO or Flush will probably claim that she's breeding more jihadists or something like that. :eyes:

[Carolina]

174. some of their ilk on blogs

already have claimed it's a jihadist breeding cell!

[AsahinaKimi]

97. All I have to say is..

OUCH! I wouldn't want to be her.

[LisaL]

102. Well she is probably in seven's heaven.

All those babies.
By the way she is only 33, so who knows. She might not even be done.

[KakistocracyHater]

104. I think people see these large litters/families &

just FEEL their own access to food is being threatened. But look at the bright side-these large families are breeding grounds for plague, all packed into a small space that can't be very sanitary.

...."Norovirus gastroenteritis goes by many common names including “stomach flu”, “winter vomiting bug”, “Norwalk-like virus”, “human calicivirus”, and “cruise ship virus”. Norovirus may be transmitted through food, water, air droplets, environmental surfaces, and person to person. Several characteristics of norovirus make it uniquely efficient in producing disease and very difficult to contain:

Low infectious dose: less than 100 virus particles (and possibly less than 10) can produce clinical disease; this makes droplet, person-to-person, food handler and secondary spread possible.
Prolonged asymptomatic shedding: Up to forty percent of individuals infected do not develop clinical symptoms but still shed virus in stool. Antigen has been detected in stool up to two weeks after resolution of clinical symptoms and children less than one year of age are most likely to have prolonged viral shedding compared to other age groups. This increases the risk of secondary spread and makes transmission through infected food handlers difficult to contain.
Environmental stability: The virus is capable of surviving 10ppm chlorine, freezing, and over 150ºF (67ºC). Therefore it survives in ice, is difficult to remove from contaminated water and survives in partially cooked foods, particularly oysters."....

Notice that having a child less than 1 year increases the spread of this new horror. Nature's birth control is very brusque, I have seen tintype pics of MANY children in open tiny coffins; children dying before the age of 10 was quite common in the 19th C.

..."In households, secondary cases of gastroenteritis are associated most strongly with having a child less than 2 years of age with diarrhea and exposure to a vomiting episode. Studies using feline calicivirus as a surrogate agent, found that large amounts of virus particles are aerosolized during vomiting and the droplets generated are a source of infection to individuals in the immediate vicinity."...

..."In healthcare settings, infection is most often transmitted through hand to hand contact between infected individuals. Droplets generated during vomiting episodes contaminate environmental surfaces with virus particles, which can remain infectious on those surfaces for many days and are relatively resistant to disinfection. An outbreak of acute gastroenteritis (AGE) should be suspected when 2 or more residents or staff have onset of vomiting (often projectile) or diarrhea within 1-2 days. Enteric cultures are not necessarily indicated when there is clinical illness compatible with viral gastroenteritis. Certainly, institutions should never await the results of stool testing before implementing control measures in a suspected outbreak. The Kaplan Criteria have been developed to assist institutions in early identification of norovirus outbreaks. They include:

Vomiting in more than half of affected persons
A mean (or median) incubation period of 24-48 hours
A mean (or median) duration of illness of 24-60 hours
No bacterial pathogen identified in stool culture."...

http://www.dhs.ca.gov/ps/dcdc/disb/disbindex.htm.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

111. It is 100% completely unnatural...

for a human woman to produce 8 surviving babies at one time, which is why it has never happened before. It is that simple. :shrug:

Nature, in Her wisdom, choses a woman to have one, ocassionally two, chldren at a time. This woman has chosen to stand Nature on her head, and it is her premature, underweight children who will suffer for her arrogance.

[Sugar Smack]

117. I'm gonna get me a third eye.

:bounce: Keep up with the Joneses.

[buddhamama]

119. i agree.

[cynatnite]

123. Her choice...her business...

Choice is a two way street.

[Carolina]

152. her choice, her business, HER RESPONSIBILITY!

[cynatnite]

161. And your point is? n/t

[Carolina]

175. self explanatory

what part of RESPONSIBILITY don't you get? :think: :crazy:

[ima_sinnic]

167. why is "choice" the point of all this? everything in life is a "choice."

when you see a murderer on trial, do you say, oh, that was his choice, to do that. DUH! of course it was this breeder's "choice" to act as a human brood queen. does anybody not know that? did somebody think it happened against her will? sheesh.

[BrklynLiberal]

124. That is because it is more like having a litter than having children.

Human beings were not meant to have 8 children at once. We have not evolved in that way. I doubt if it could ever happen naturally.

Our survival was never dependent on being able to have huge litters....and should I mention that while dogs and cats, etc have 6, 8 or even 10 nipples, the vast majority of human women have only 2. I believe that may have been nature's way of giving us a BIG hint about how many children we should normally expect to have at one time.

[tnlefty]

128. I find it more obscene that any physician would have done

this. I was an infertility patient and there is no way in hell that my physician would have done this. :mad:

[geniph]

129. Speaking as the youngest of 13 children myself,

all I can say is I feel damned sorry for those kids. Their lives are never going to be anything close to "normal" - it'll be a matter of great amazement to me if they all survive infancy. There is no one on this planet, no matter how loving and dedicated, who can provide the care and attention 8 newborn infants need to thrive. So she'll sell 'em like commercial endorsements to pay for diapers and formula and nannies.

Ugh. It's just no way to live. I'm not saying she shouldn't be allowed to use her vagina like a clown car if she so chooses - it's her vagina, after all - what am I saying is that I feel sorry for the kids. And the doctor who unethically implanted 8 embryos should have their license to practice medicine revoked. Most of the world does not permit implantation of more than 3 embryos simultaneously. It's no kindness to anyone - to the other, older children, to the octuplets, to this poor disturbed creature herself, or to society - to enable people to reproduce for the purposes of publicity.

[Sheepshank]

132. According to the grandmother

The woman has psychological problems with craving, babies. What happens when they are back talking screaming, whining 5th graders? She want's babies not actual, individual, thinking, human beings.

[ima_sinnic]

170. in about 2 yrs this freak will be in the news again with another litter

--just as she was tired of the first 6, because they'd grown out of being babies.
the damage to these 14 human beings is incomprehensible. And all some clueless people can say is, oh it was her choice, as though we now live in anarchy and can choose to do whatever we want, with no regard for consequences or responsibility for our actions.

[we can do it]

136. Fucking Attention Whore and Her Litter Need To Be Ignored

[Bluebear]

145. 'I couldn't keep it in anymore.' - neither could she.

[underpants]

151. That is basically an entire basketball team in her womb

There are usually 12 or 15 players ON the team but for the most part only 8 play

[spanone]

155. i'm with you CW......

[Taverner]

160. I find it selfish

There I said it

[Brooklyns_Finest]

163. Okay

I predict that once this crazy female gets out of the hospital and goes on her media tour, her few supporters on this site will start to change their tune.

What I find the most tragic is that the one male figure in that household has to leave the country and go to Iraq to earn money to support his daughter. Now that is selfish. Everyone is paying for her "choice".

[NaturalHigh]

169. If she can support them without public assistance...

I couldn't possibly care less. If taxpayers have to foot the bill, it's wrong.