What's the difference between a gun and a taser?

[Are_grits_groceries]

Nothing if you are a Bart cop.
BART cop's defense claims Taser mistaken for gun

<snip>
"I'm going to taze him, I'm going to taze him," Mehserle said, according to Officer Tony Pirone. "I can't get his arms. He won't give me his arms. His hands are going for his waistband."
<snip>
http://rawstory.com/news/2008/BART_cops_defense_claims_taser_mistaken_0131.html

Am I missing something about tasers?? I didn't think they remotely resembled guns.

[slackmaster]

1. Some models are very similar to handguns

Take a look at the M26, which is designed for law enforcement use.

http://www.taser.com/products/law/Pages/TASERM26.aspx

[SmileyRose]

2. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he just grabbed the wrong weapon - however

why the fuck would he tase someone he would never shoot? Refusing to put your arms behind you does not put the officer or anyone else in mortal danger. This is the only excuse to either weapon. A taser was intended to stop someone from putting themselves or others at mortal risk with a better chance of a person being shot with the taser being alive and basically injury free afterwards than they have with being shot.

No officer in this country should be tasing someone they would not shoot dead.

[slackmaster]

3. You tase someone who is not complying with instructions

You use a firearm on someone who poses a threat to life and limb.

[Evergreen Emerald]

7. Exactly.

They guy was fighting. He should have complied, but decided to fight instead. The officer went for what he thought was his taser and shot him.

What a horrible horrible mistake. One life gone, and a whole bunch of lives ruined.

Mistakes:
1. the guy should not have fought.
2. the officer should have picked up his taser.

[SmileyRose]

19. I completely disagree

Tasers can be and have been proven to be fatal in more than one instance. There are plenty of other ways to get someone to comply that aren't deadly. Police used their brains to find other ways of getting people to comply before tasers they can continue to use those non-lethal methods.

IMHO police training needs to spend more time on dealing with people. Granted, some folks talking won't do any good, but when we are tasering 8 yr old girls and 90 yr old citizens then something is really off.

[slackmaster]

20. Are you suggesting that the purpose of using a Taser is to kill?

If so, you are wrong.

[SmileyRose]

22. NO

I'm saying the taser's best use is an alternative to shooting. If an officer would not dream of using his gun in a given situation then he should not be using the taser either. IMHO.

[slackmaster]

24. What on Earth is that supposed to mean?

I'm saying the taser's best use is an alternative to shooting.

No, a gun and a Taser are two different tools with two different purposes.

[uppityperson]

26. Rather than shooting someone, tase them.

There is less chance of killing them, but a good chance of getting them to stop doing what they are doing (threatening you, etc). Tasers were introduced to give another tool to stop people without killing them. Hence, they were an alternative to shooting them.

[slackmaster]

27. No, the Taser is a pain-compliance tool, not intended for use against lethal threats

It's an alternative to pepper spray, night sticks, etc.

The San Diego PD experimented with Nunchaku for that purpose for a while, but they ended up breaking too many suspects' wrists.

[uppityperson]

29. That is one place you and I differ. I disagree.

[hfojvt]

25. there's another line in there though

"his hands keep going for his waistband"

as in "he may have a weapon in his waistband that he is trying to get"

[Orangeone]

31. Huh?

His hands were handcuffed behind his back...

[NOW tense]

4. Taser vs Gun

[madville]

5. Very similar in some cases

Glock handgun




Taser

[NOW tense]

11. on both mine and yours

The grips are different. I get the panic feeling to grab for something, but a trained person would recognize the difference. I have watched the video and I still haven't seen him struggle.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

6. Some look like guns

The hand feel is different and the safety is in a different spot. So basically, no one could really mistake it for a gun, especially when the taser isn't even holstered close to the gun.

The cop is just grasping for anything now, I think. Also, you're only supposed to use the taser in a situation that you would use your firearm in. Since the guy was restrained, there was no reason to use a gun or a taser.

The cop also would have tased the other cops, because they were holding the guy.

[slackmaster]

9. Nobody ever went broke overestimating the capacity of humans to make stupid mistakes

So basically, no one could really mistake it for a gun...

I am not sure that's what happened in this case, but based on my experience with people including myself, I can't dismiss the possibility.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Poll_Blind]

10. There is absolutely, ABSOLUTELY NO REASON why...

...a taser should be mistaken for a duty firearm. The only people who would possibly make such a mistake are persons who have not handled pistols at all or very, very little. Or, by trained personnel, only in the wildest, out of control situations where absolutely no time for thought or cognition is reasonably possible before attempting to defend one's life.

  The shape, weight and "feel" is entirely different. They are still gun-shaped, have triggers and safeties but it is absurd to compare the two. Anyone can do their own research on this by going down to their local gun shop and ask to hold a 9mm Glock, a typical duty firearm, and a taser.

  This person was given the great responsibility of using both lethal and less-than-lethal (that's what they're called, not how I feel about them) weapons. Not knowing the difference between the two, or claiming to, in a situation where the subject is on their belly and cuffed and when you are protected by a ring of other officers is telling.

  Once the jury sees and gets to see and feel the difference between these two items, and I guarantee at some point they will, it's going to be A) Over for this guy and B) a very big financial headache for BART- which they appear to deserve.

PB

[pipi_k]

12. In the heat of the moment

with a bunch of adrenaline flowing, I suppose a person could make a tragic mistake like that. Especially if the taser and gun looked pretty similar.

I mean, if a person can mistake a gas pedal for a brake pedal and end up smashing through a house or storefront, anything is possible...


:shrug:

[Poll_Blind]

15. I agree. Absolutely. But in the situation in which this occurred...

...the situation was not only under control, the subject was on their belly on the ground, handcuffed. The BART cop is seen methodically standing up, unholstering their firearm and shooting the victim. With multiple recordings of the event, from various angles (some of which recording quite a bit of the situational context) it's more than clear that this event occurred in an environment where a trained professional should not be making mistakes like that.

But I do agree with you about the confusion which can occur.

PB

[Evergreen Emerald]

21. you and I saw something different

the guy was not complying. The crowd was gathering--mob-like. What are the police supposed to do? Continue to struggle with the guy? Why? He needed to comply and refused. They should not have to fight. The guy contributed to this horrific accident.

[hfojvt]

30. the guy was probably drunk, like many people on amateur night

but I agree, in the video the officer draws and shoots fairly quickly and then has a "what the hell just happened?" look on his face. It's still man one, 5 to 10 years (or something like that). The cops probably should make allowances for disturbances on a party night. I had to call the police when a wedding reception threatened to turn into a brawl at the end. Even if there had been a fight. I want the situation de-escalated more than I want somebody charged with something on their wedding night (I saw the groom himself running and pulling off his tux jacket yelling "this is bullsh*t! this is bullsh*t!". Somebody had ticked him off, and he was probably drunk himself.) So I just asked an officer to drive by and encourage people to calm down before they get in trouble.

[Vinca]

13. Actually, given the track record of tasers, they should be considered

deadly weapons. IMO, the only real difference between a taser and a gun is you have to aim the gun to kill someone.

[NeedleCast]

14. Looks like this cop was itching to shoot

and now his defense is resting on this story of going for a taser and not a gun. I'll usually give a cop the benefit of the doubt, but this case looks pretty bad.

That being said, not getting shot by the cops is one of the easiest things in the world to do.

[Poll_Blind]

16. "not getting shot by the cops is one of the easiest things in the world to do."

I sort of agree with you on this but I also disagree a bit. My brother is an undercover narcotics agent in a very old, very large American city notorious for extremely heinous crimes throughout its almost 300-year existence. We do not speak much but on several occasions conversation has turned to his job. He made it clear that there are members of the police that he deals with who are have no problem bringing out lethal force (drawing the weapon and bringing it to bear) for very flimsy reasons. He said it disgusts him and it frightens him because there are situations where a police officer behaving this way can quickly, very quickly, make a situation go from bad but routine to very bad, unpredictable and dangerous- not only for the police officer(s) and suspects but for bystanders and other members of the public.

FWIW.

PB

[PurityOfEssence]

23. The REAL lesson from the Rodney King incident:

Don't resist arrest.

The REAL lesson from Princess Diana's death:

Wear your seatbelt.

[.... callchet ....]

17. Life or death

Mostly

[HelenWheels]

18. Cops rely on tasers too much

It looks like cops taser someone before they try negotiation or physical restraints. I used to work with mentally ill people and we were taught different physical restraints that really worked. Also, we could talk many of the agitated patients down. I do know the police have to cope with a lot of out of control people and do need to use the tasers sometimes.

[kentuck]

28. Cops kill more people with tasers - tenfold.

Or more.

[Mike 03]

32. Initially, I believed this story, but after reading some analysis and watching all of the different

films of the event, I believe this was not a "mistake."

But I don't know for sure.

The difference, of course, is the location of placement on the belt.

Also, I'd like to know what the officer's mental state was at the time: had he been up for several days, was he under the influence of anything, had he been given orders by that bald-headed cop who seems to be talking to him in the tapes?

Hopefully in the months ahead much of this will be clarified.

It's a horrible and troubling case.