I think it's too late . . .

[ConcernedCanuk]

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Our economy, mine, yours, the whole World's is going through a major change that may take decades.

I am a licensed Auto and truck mechanic in Ontario.

When I was an apprentice back in the early '70's

It amazed me that I knew people could go work in a factory with basically NO SKILLS or training and make 3 times the money I did.

We over-valued UNSKILLED labor

It does not surprise me that China, India, Korea, Mexico - etcetera have taken over these jobs

It sorta surprises me that it took this long!

We expect too much for doing so little

[dmallind]

1. Oh oh

you will seriously piss off the egalitarian "labor is the only value creation" purists ya know.... The idea that skills and results deserve more income is a bit.....capitalist.

[DJ13]

6. The idea that skills and results deserve more income is a bit.....capitalist.

It depends on whether someone seriously thinks it takes more skill to sit behind a desk and shuffle papers or run a machine for 10 hours straight that could seriously maim you at any minute.

[Skittles]

10. most of the degreed people I know are way overpaid

[CreekDog]

20. oh man, look out

they are throwing brie at you! :hide:

[Idealism]

9. You mean dumbasses like Jefferson?

He was a total tool and full of himself, after all wasn't he?

[Skittles]

2. :O

:popcorn:

[OhioChick]

4. Can I join you?

:popcorn:

[Cant trust em]

3. It's all a negotiation. NT

[ConcernedCanuk]

14. Oh yeah, it's negotiation alright - negotiated many of us out of jobs!

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Our unions fought for higher wages and benefits

Big Companies found out it was cheaper to make their products elsewhere then ship them back

So

How smart have we been?

[Bandit]

32. Did you deliberately leave out Health Care Costs?

It is cheaper to outsource because they don't have to pay employee Health Insurance Costs. Those are one of Business's largest expenses and literally make them almost unable to compete. Those other countries also do not have to meet environmental standards, child labor standards, or for that matter virtually no standards. Is that all because American Labor wants to be paid fairly for their Labor? Your point really gets lost when some details are presented.

[ConcernedCanuk]

33. nope

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[proud2BlibKansan]

5. I was in college in the 70s

and had a bunch of friends who worked in factories and made great money. But I knew I couldn't do that so I stayed in school.

None of those friends work those factory jobs anymore. But I am securely employed.

[knowbody0]

7. yep

but 30 years ago I was making $15.00 per hour plus overtime. I could afford to maintain a home and feed my kiddies. today we need to suck toes for that wage, and you cannot live on it. Back in the day Nike announced opening factories in Mexico almost as a humanitarian effort to improve their economy and lower the cost of our shoes. Like everything else, prices went up, not down.

Kids today without blinking wear advertisements on their clothing as a matter of status. it is all so fucked up, I am glad to see it fail. The paper empire is crumbling, and we indeed need a new path.

Here's to us all evolving!

[Joe Fields]

8. what "factory" work are you talking about specifically?

I've had numerous factory jobs, many different, some the same, and all paid below what a licensed truck mechanic earns. I've been in the workforce over forty years. Can you name some factory jobs, besides auto and steel mfg. that pay better than a licensed truck mechanic?

[dysfunctional press]

13. to be fair- he said that he was an apprentice at the time...

which probably means that he didn't make what a fully licensed guy might make.

[ConcernedCanuk]

15. Even a fully licensed guy at the time would not make what a factory worker could make

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My apprenticeship was 5 years

Factory worker could make more on the first day than I would after I was fully licensed

Figure that one out . . .

Then you will know why our economy is NOT going to rebound in the near future . .

[marybourg]

11. I take issue with the assertion that factory workers are "unskilled."

Many factory workers have started their jobs unskilled, but most become very skilled on the job. I've seen very skilled workers in food processing, aluminum window-making and garment factories. This is not even to touch the issues of difficulty, danger, and lack of respect (such as you display) that go along with factory work. Full disclosure: I'm NOT a factory worker.

[ConcernedCanuk]

12. I'm talking about unskilled workers - If you or your friends are trained/skilled

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Then my comment/observation does not apply to them

right?

[catnhatnh]

16. Most factories HAVE to train their workers....

that said I worked in a wallboard plant that was run by rotating teams of just 17 workers and produced over 1 million board/feet of product a day...you can't do that with "unskilled workers". Those 17 people ran the gypsum mill, paper roll control, the mixer/former head, a 1/4 mile setting conveyor, the cutting/QC/turnaround station, a 1000' seven deck curing oven and four stacking/takeoff machines with two production fork truck drivers included in the team to transport the product into the warehouse...in a modern factory damn few are "unskilled"...

[OHdem10]

17. You are correct. It will take years--10 is what I have heard also.

We are in the midst of harmonizing downward (salaries). The reality
is hitting us in the face. Globalization forces some equalization
of pay. The US cannot continue the high salaries while rest of the
world is working for slave labor wages. We are not competitive. Others
cannot afford to buy our goods.

Furthermore, our Leaders over the years have used Trade as a deal maker
in order to get countries to support our Foreign Policy. In other
words they sold us out. In order to get their support. for example, when
trying to impose sanctions, we permit them to sell their goods here.
No reciprocal requirements.

The Internationals have been given free reign with allegiance to no country.

No am not a protectionist. I do believe our Leaders were asleep at the
switch and we are in a period of at least 40,000,000 job dislocations
People have to rethink their lives their goals. Sure, just as in the
great Depression there are some who will be fine. The great majority
in our country have some serious adjustments ahead.

[ConcernedCanuk]

18. THANK YOU - a voice of reason instead of emotion

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"People have to rethink their lives their goals"

exactly

too bad we had to have it forced on us

even sadder is the fact that most of us STILL don't realize how much we have to change our consumerism attitudes . . .

"The great majority in our country have some serious adjustments ahead"

Not just your country

Ours too -

[dysfunctional press]

19. "a rising tide lifts all boats..."

it really drives me nuts when politicians use that line to sell globalization to the masses-
because the truth is that in order for the tide to rise in one place, it has to recede somewhere else.

[ogneopasno]

30. I'm not interested in working for slave labor, thanks very much.

[Morning Dew]

21. Just wait until "they" figure out that people in Africa will work for less

than those unskilled, overpaid Chinese, Indians, Koreans and Mexicans.

It's a race to the bottom. Welcome to the new world economy.

Of course, "they" have to have someone to sell their stuff to and it looks like they've killed the goose that laid the golden egg.

[JCMach1]

26. Exactly, lately workers from Zimbabwe are showing up fairly often in Dubai

[pampango]

28. You seem to be arguing that Chinese wages have risen as a result of their export-led

economic growth of the last 20 years, but that the rug will pulled out from under them. Indeed that is happening with the collapse of their export markets now. As you imply, China has much more money and capital now than they did 20 years ago and they have the potential of a domestic consumer market with the higher wages that their workers are earning.

The trick for them is to try to duplicate Japan's accomplishment after WWII when they recovered economically from the war through exports then use that wealth to convert their economy to more of a consumer, domestic-oriented economy (still with a lot of exports as we have, too) that can sustain itself. Can China duplicate that and convert their new-found wealth into a healthy domestic economy or will it implode economically by failing to convert from an export economy? We shall see.

[napoleon_in_rags]

22. Well, maybe we should be thinking in terms of decades then.

The economy is bullshit. When you get down to it, if people work together they can create heaven on earth, right now. If they don't they can create hell on earth, right now. So what runs the economy is that which motivates us to work together. everything else is secondary. In the past its been the obligation to our children, as evident in FDRs social programs, or War and the way it brings us together to survive. "Its the MORALS stupid". When we are called on to go beyond ourselves, specializations occur which create an economy greater than the sum of its parts. So the challenge of this time is NOT to keep us in our lifestyles of waste and bullshit, that's the past. The challenge of this time is to unify us on a moral quest to serve others so that we forget about our selves, and our "poverty". The current and coming impoverishment stem from a poverty of spirit, which leads us to a poverty of mind and eventually of finance. The way to reverse it is to end the inner poverty, get us living for something beyond ourselves. If we are living our lives in great sacrifice for generations unborn, great wealth will follow as day follows night.

[BlooInBloo]

23. As long as Americans are soooo dead-set certain that they don't need no stinkin edumacation...

I'm solid - no competition solving variational formulations of PDEs = job security for life.

It would be much better for everyone (me included) to have the competition, of course, but you can't force the horse to drink, as they say. It's a free country.

[me b zola]

24. Much of that "unskilled labor" that you are whining about

comes at great cost to the laborer. How much should a person be compensated for a crippled body at after a life of back-breaking work?

People who spout ignorant shit like you did should be forced to work a year as a selector in a warehouse, in the fields picking produce, or one of the other thousands of jobs that wear out the body of the laborer or exposes them to hazards that often won't show signs until years later.

[ConcernedCanuk]

37. People who spout ignorant shit - hmm

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think about that

[Waiting For Everyman]

25. You'd better expect that wages equal the cost of living in a given place.

Or you can expect riots. It's simple really.

If you expect to make Africa's wages, while paying Ontario's cost of living, that math won't work out.

So unless you're going to clear out Ontario and send all of these unskilled people to Africa to work, your concept of how an economy should be has a problem.

[mmonk]

27. I don't see giving our tax revenues, changing or laws, running huge

deficits and giving into privatization while denying basic needs of citizens is a solution to any problem. In fact, it has more to do with the financial crisis and certainly the conditions in the US than overpaying unskilled labor which could be corrected without implementing what brought us to this point.

[ogneopasno]

29. What factory takes no skills to work in?

And you didn't sign up? Who's the dumbass here?

[Blue Diadem]

31. This global change was planned for decades.

specifically moving us toward a service oriented country. Years ago, my MIL gave my kids a booklet she ordered, put out by the government, for suggested careers in the 90's and beyond. The projected job growth at that time was service oriented jobs, the medical fields, sales, services and construction.

You can't expect to post something negative and insulting and not expect people to react. I've worked in various "unskilled" fields and came away with a new respect for what others do. What you posted would be like me thinking that because I have a son & husband who can work on and repair cars that your job is unskilled and worth less pay.

By the way, car repair costs are ridiculous, but I also know that what the mechanic makes vs what the company they work for charges doesn't make me think less of the mechanic's skills.

[ConcernedCanuk]

34. " This global change was planned for decades" - yeah it was

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Those behind the scenes, like Prescott Bush, and other mega-billionaires -

run our governments

People like JFK an MLK that appeal to the masses, but run against the Banksters agenda,

die

I fear for President Obama,

but I hope he has learned from history -

and pray for his safety

[Deja Q]

36. And if the mechanic is a good worker, what if (and this is conjecture) it's passive aggression?

Without loyalty, only "good enough" will do.

Then there's the matter of perception...

[Lucian]

35. Jesus fucking Christ.

Am I really reading this here?

[ConcernedCanuk]

38. nice language

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and yeah

you are reading this here

It's called a "discussion" board

profanities do not impress me

and certainly are not informative, unless they are new ones . . .

[Lucian]

39. I'm not here to impress anyone.

:eyes:

[KillCapitalism]

40. The problem is that everyone cannot be "skilled."

There are a good number of people out there who either don't have the education or the mental capacity to be highly skilled workers, but they should be able to at least earn a living wage at whatever it is that they do. Not everyone can be an M.D. or engineer, or obtain an MBA or J.D. degree.