Nurse suspended for prayer offer

[The Straight Story]

Nurse suspended for prayer offer


A Christian nurse from Weston-super-Mare has been suspended for offering to pray for a patient's recovery.

Community nurse Caroline Petrie, 45, says she asked an elderly woman patient during a home visit if she wanted her to say a prayer for her.

The patient complained to the health trust about Mrs Petrie who follows the Baptist faith.

She was suspended, without pay, on 17 December and will find out the outcome of her disciplinary meeting next week.


Mrs Petrie, who carries out home visits in North Somerset, said she had asked the patient if she would like a prayer said for her after she had put dressings on the woman's legs.

The patient, believed to be in her 70s, refused and Mrs Petrie insists that she left the matter alone.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/somerset/7863699.stm

[Skittles]

1. a nurse shouldn't be doing that but it seems a bit harsh

they should have just told her to knock it off, then suspend her if she did it again

[marybourg]

13. Maybe this incident *was* the "again". n/t

[elleng]

53. ? a nurse shouldn't be doing that???

Why the H*** NOT?

[Skittles]

57. you should not be talking religious crap in any job

unless you're in a fucking church or work for the fucking church

[elleng]

62. Oh, the 'fucking' church.

Thanks for the advice.

[Skittles]

63. damn straight

[NeedleCast]

81. Those religious nutters

hoping that people have a speeding recovery and shit. How dare they!

[Maru Kitteh]

86. You're probably one of those people who hates all churches because you think they're all intolerant

And yet you fail to see the irony.

[tavalon]

2. If she left the matter alone after asking once, she did nothing wrong

Unfortunately, home health nurses rarely have unions which is too bad. BTW, I'm not Christian so I don't offer such things but if asked will pray with or for a patient. As a nurse, I choose to take care of the whole person and if their spirit requires something I can offer, offer it I will.

[Kaleva]

8. I agree

I work with elderly people on an almost daily basis and while most are great folks, there are a few who I think would do everyone a big favor if they left this existence as early as possible.

[vadawg]

12. i used to know a nurse who called them NDY

[Kaleva]

14. NDY? Not dead yet?

[Fovea]

16. I prayed for a lot of my patients.

But as a Wiccan, only asked one or two patients about their spiritual needs.
Of course, I mostly worked ER and OR.

[tavalon]

49. I'm Wiccan too!

But I work in the NICU so the issue comes up from time to time.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. Correct, taking care of the whole patient is critical

We once baptized a kid in the field, who was still born and a premie, about five months.

The mother was distraught, we offered to do the field baptism, which was authorized many years ago by an ecumenical group of christian churches. I learned it in EMS class.

Did I mention I'm Jewish?

That was something that we know the family appreciated, and as far as they were concerned, the baby was saved. Now even the Padre thought we did the right thing... for the family and the kid. Oh and Mexico has officially far more of a separation of church and state

[SoCalDem]

3. If someone says, but nurses are there to render medical services, not church services

Life would be so wonderful if these missionary-zealot-evangelists would all just work for their MINISTRIES, and leave the rest of us alone:)

[liberalmuse]

4. I guess the UK takes the separation between church and state very seriously...

although I do feel the punishment was a bit harsh. If this had happened in the US the nurse would be all over Faux News as another martyr against the cause (librulizm).

[MadBadger]

5. Are you sure she works for the government?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

29. The types of nurses who go visiting housebound old people are usually

part of the NHS, unless the old person in question is rich enough to pay for private duty nursing.

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. Yes, National Health Service

if this is in the UK

So she works for the state

That said, there's no separation of church and state

[proud2BlibKansan]

6. It's part of the war on Faith Healing!

[QC]

7. There is no church/state separation in the UK. n/t

[Lydia Leftcoast]

27. Uh, not really--it has a state church

The Church of England.

[elleng]

55. Don't think they've GOT it there!

The Church of England is the officially established Christian church<3> in England, the Mother Church of the worldwide Anglican Communion and the oldest among the communion's thirty-eight independent national and regional churches.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_England

[patrice]

9. Touchy question that, depends upon so many particulars of the people & situation.

There are such things as spiritual parasites, fooling themselves and others.

[Ilsa]

10. Nurses in the US generally aren't aggressive in asking clients

about whether their spiritual needs are being met under their new circumstances, but we are taught that many people have spiritual needs that are important to them and their recovery. On edit: and those needs might be in a variety of religions.

If they are in a hospital a nurse might inquire as to whether a patient would like a visit from their minister, but most nurses don't have time to do anything like prayer while working.

If a patient or client is home-bound, it wouldn't surprise me if a nurse asked if the patient needed any help in making contacts for her spiritual needs. I tend to think the unpaid suspension of Petrie is harsh, unless it has been determined that she was pestering the client.

[SharonAnn]

24. Hmm, you're not in East Tennessee. I've had customers pray over me whan I'm at their site.

They just believe so strongly in "witnessing". One of them laid his hand on my male partner's head and asked that "Jayzuz ..." do something or other, I don't remember. We were just stunned.

Every snack or meal is a prayer of thansgiving session.

Etc.

[Ilsa]

64. Ooooohhhh brother. You're right. Then again my nursing education was

by smart, professional nurses who would never endorse such behavior. Those cretins taking care of you and/or your partner should be reported to the state board of nursing.

"Every snack or meal is a prayer of thansgiving session." -- I've been through that here in Texas. I'd rather we eat before the food gets cold.

[hughee99]

11. How do we know she didn't pray for her anyway?

Clearly, this needs to be investigated further to make sure the full damage is determined.

[Hugabear]

19. How exactly are you going to determine that?

I completely agree that her offering to pray with a patient is highly unethical. But how do you determine if she actually did pray for her on her own?

[hughee99]

30. I was being sarcatic...

But from the article, I don't think she offered to pray WITH her, just say a prayer for her recovery. It also isn't clear whether she intended to do the prayer on the spot, or if the next time she went to church, to say and "extra" prayer for her.

[nichomachus]

15. It was inappropriate and unethical

The patient is a vulnerable party in a provider-patient relationship. Trying to force religion on a patient is no different that preaching politics or trying to sell the aluminum siding. This is no different than teachers trying to get students to pray.

[MadBadger]

18. Yes, it is different. She offered to say a prayer FOR her.

She didnt try to get the patient to say anything.

[nichomachus]

20. Apparently, the patient found it offensive

which is why you shouldn't discuss religion at all. It's inappropriate and unethical.

[MadBadger]

22. How bout giving her a warning?

Tell her that it is unethical. SHe had good intentions. I think a suspension without pay is completely ridiculous.

[nichomachus]

25. We don't know

this may not have been the first time. I used to teach nurses. There are some very aggressive "Christian" nurses who see their nursing duties as just an opportunity to push Jesus onto people who are at a bad period in their lives.

My experience has always been that people who want religious activities will ask for them. Or, a chaplain make make the rounds and sell Jesus. Medical personnel should stick to medicine.

One danger is that a patient -- being in a vulnerable position -- may feel she's not going to get the best care if she doesn't go along with the prayer thing and will acquiesce even when she doesn't want to. It's like when your boss comes around selling raffle tickets or girl scout cookies.

[MadBadger]

28. Then I'll wait for more for further judgment.

But with just being offered the article, I think a warning would have been enough.

[Control-Z]

34. So, what if she had offered

to cast a healing spell? Would that have been okay?

[tavalon]

51. In a fdifferent world, it would have been equally okay, as long as when the woman declined

nothing more came of it. Being a Wiccan and therefore, of a religion that you just tried to use as an ooga booga example of the slippery slope, I take ever so slight offense. It is slight because you likely know nothing of the Wiccan religion and so I know or strongly suspect that your slander came from a lack of understanding, rather than malice. My religion is one of the few left that people can use against me in my job setting, in my place in the world setting, in all sorts of settings. As an aside, it was kind of nice to have the Mormons fuck up so spectacularly that they got moved back into the slot of religions we don't need to be polite about. It was getting lonely down here. ;)

[inthebrain]

58. You always had us atheists and agnostics

Could you imagine the fallout if this nurse offered to discuss Darwin, Evolution or just Natural Selection with the patient?

She would have NO defenders on this board at all. As a matter of fact, I doubt the article ever gets posted.

[tavalon]

59. Actually, you guys got elevated to person hood on Jan 20th

Revel in it! It's fucking fantastic. Honestly! I think our country could do with more humanism. And here I am, a believer, saying that and that's just fine. I don't care that you haven't experienced my Goddess as I have and I don't care that the Christian's will never get what it's like to live without God noodling about in their business. I don't care. But I do think we're far to religious in this country, and with our New President bringing up your "religion" (beliefs or rather non beliefs) in his inaugural address, you have made it buddy. Do something great with it! Seriously!

As an aside, when I was a home health nurse, I had this one patient who was just glued to the OJ trial (quite a while ago) but it was because this little 90 year old had a crush on Cato. I had the misfortune of showing up for one of our appointments when Cato was on the stand. While I personally was no Cato fan, I wasn't going to disappoint my client and she was my last client of the day so we sat down with tea and she gushed all over Cato and I listened and nodded and enjoyed her enjoyment and the appointment ended up lasting a few hours. I promise you, with that wonderful woman, had she wanted to discuss Darwin or Evolution rather than a surfer dude I would have been ecstatic but you get what you get. ;)

[tavalon]

60. That was a wordy reply

The short version is, if you take the opportunity, you may be out of the penalty box!

[Control-Z]

67. I said nothing about wiccan.

I asked a simple question, though, and you answered it with, "in another world...". So your answer is no. It would not be ok, because in this world, the US of A, only God talk is permitted and defended.

If you want to feel slandered, be my guest. Sometimes people just feel the need. There was certainly no slander intended.

[Kaleva]

23. force religion?

I didn't read where the nurse attempted to force the woman into accepting that she pray for her.

[nichomachus]

26. See my post above

There is a power imbalance -- always ethically risky

[LanternWaste]

65. Or philosophy, or literature, or art...

"Trying to force religion on a patient is no different that..."

Or philosophy, or literature, or art, or a hundred other man-made constructs that exist only in our minds and souls. Should be forbidden to speak of any of them whilst at work... :sarcasm:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

70. Trying To Force???

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Warpy]

17. The best policy always is to let the patient bring it up

and then offer to send for clergy if one is not religious.

Nobody likes pushy people and pushy religious people seem to be among the worst offenders.

The suspension is a good idea. Firing would have been extreme but will likely happen if Ms. Petrie doesn't remember where the church leaves off and her job starts.

[nichomachus]

21. Bingo

[timtom]

50. "Pushy"

I have a little joke that amuses me tremendously. When someone wishes me to "have a nice day", I, in mock indignation, shout, "Don't tell me what to do, ya control freak!" We all then share in a merry chuckle at the very absurdity of it.

[GregD]

31. I had a physician ask if he could pray over me.

I blew out my shoulder a couple years ago, went to a specialist, and as we were completing the exam he offered to pray for me. I replied please don't - no thank you.

I was floored by the offer.

[Wiley50]

41. my primary care did that on my first visit

I said, "No Thanks"

and he's never brought it up again

And he's turned out to be the best damn doc I ever had

I'm a chronic pain patient and a lot of docs can be very difficult

this guy has never asked for a drug screen and increases doseage when it is needed

that, my friend, is rare these days

[FLyellowdog]

33. If the nurse thought prayer would improve the medical situation....

then by all means, she should have said a prayer...on her own time, in her own home, and in her own way without even bothering the person being prayed for. Telling someone you're going to pray for them is a passive/aggressive way of trying to "spread the word" and "witness". Truly honest and caring believers will pray for someone in the solitude of their own privacy without calling attention to the act and without intruding on the other person's beliefs. The nurse was wrong and probably knew it. Now she knows not to do it again.

[Control-Z]

37. I could not have said it better.

Offering prayer is a means to getting a "foot in", in my experience, and there is seldom a way out. Declining the prayer almost always brings condemnation and preaching.

[TreasonousBastard]

35. According to the article...

which few seem to have bothered to read before commenting, the 70 year old woman "was not offended, but afraid others might be."

So, we have this busybody making a prophylactic complaint in case someone else actually gets feels like complaining.

Once again, there is more to the story...

[inthebrain]

38. I just read this and see where she did make a mistake

She commonly asks all patients if they would like her to say a prayer. That's not what she is supposed to. As nurses our job is to assess their spiritual beliefs and find out what they want done. We are not supposed to offer anything as it is a sensitive topic.

She got a little overzelouse it appears by her comments.

[Kaleva]

39. patient wasn't offended by the prayer offer but was concerned..

others might be so the nurse was suspended until the incident has been fully investigated.

[inthebrain]

40. What she did is a violation of her practice

Mrs Petrie, who qualified as a nurse in 1985, said she became a Christian following the death of her mother.

"My faith got stronger and I realised God was doing amazing things in my life.

"I saw my patients suffering and as I believe in the power of prayer, I began asking them if they wanted me to pray for them. They are absolutely delighted."




The question is not if the patient was offended. It as matter of keeping with the guidelines of practice. Offering prayer is against the practice and could also put her nursing license in jeapoardy. She is supposed to asses, that is ask the patient, what is they practice and how they practice. Also what it is THEY LIKE to have done.

Whether or not this particular patient was offended is inconsequential.

[Kaleva]

42. I still think the suspension was too harsh

If she was accused of incompetence, endangering a patient or of thievery, I could understand such a move.

[inthebrain]

43. That is endangering a patient

Their religious, spiritual, cultural as well as ethnic practices have to be respected. The focus itself has to be on the patient and allowing them full control of their care.

As nurses we are taught to respect these. Not doing so can but a patient in a stressful state. Some of them need to be relaxed and free from stressors.

I couldn't fathom doing something like that to someone who suffered an MI. There are folks that get really upset over this stuff. Folks that suffer MIs need to be in a stress free enviornment. For some, even the littlest of things like not respecting their religious or spiritual beliefs can set them off.

[Kaleva]

44. Give the nurse a warning then

There was nothing in the article that stated that any patient was upset by the nurses action.

[inthebrain]

45. This what you are not understanding

The fact that no one was upset doesn't matter. It's the issue that someone COULD get upset or that she could have upset one of em.

You still have to treat it as if she DID. Frankly , because if SHE DID one of them could have coded. Myself as an agnostic, would have been EXTREMELY upset by a nurse doing that to me. I would not have been comfortable with that nurse nor would I be comfortable in that institution for having complained about that nurse. I don't know if she has friends on staff that may neglect for complaining.

And that's another issue. The fact that no one was upset is difficult to prove as there could have been many patients upset by this but kept quiet because they are not comfortable with it. Being an agnostic or an atheist carries a lot of baggage for many people who are not.

And yes, if I was someone that had an MI I probably would have coded as I don't like people pushing their religious practices on me. I'm not even comfortable with people saying "god bless you" when I sneeze despite the fact I know they are trying to be polite.

My wife is much worse than I as she is an atheist will take someone task on the spot for even the mention.

Also, me being a nurse, I can not fathom doing what this nurse did. It's completely against the basic guidelines of practice. In religious and spiritual matters the patient is the one that decides what they want.

Not the nurse.

She should be lucky she just got suspended. Many places fire on the spot with no questions asked. In an instance like this they would.

[Kaleva]

46. You are transposing your beliefs

onto the nurse's patients. You say you would be extremely upset if someone offered to pray for you but the article doesn't make mention that any patient actually was. I have a question for you. If a dying patient in your care begged you to pray with him or her, would you refuse?

[inthebrain]

47. LOL That is EXACTLY what the nurse did here

And no I probably wouldn't. I am able to put that aside, even though I really don't have to, and do my job. I am honest about what I believe with the patient so as not to lie to them and maintain trust.

But the scenerio you've just laid out is a complete contradiction to what actually occured here. These patients didn't ask her. She assumed their religious practices and offered. In nursing there is something called "Functional Health Patterns" where the nurse is supposed to assess the patient. One of those is religious/Spirituality patterns. When you assess you are not supposed to assume anything. Nursing educators are very dilligent about how to treat religious practices and this nurse certainly knew what she was doing was wrong.

Oh, what this nurse did WAS transpose her religious beliefs.

Not me.

But I suppose in your view the rights of atheists/agnostics in a health care setting are less than those of faith? They don't have a right to have their beliefs respected. Do you hold the same whereas a christian offers a jew a cross?

Am I getting warm here?

[Kaleva]

52. We don't know if the nurse assumed the patient's..

religious practices.

My wife was in the hospital recently for a bout of bad seizures and she is also on medications to control her bi-polar disorder. One night,a nurse on evening duty forgot to give her meds. My wife mentioned to the morning nurse that she didn't get her evening meds. What happened was that the evening nurse was on the internet checking out sales on E-Bay and thus dropped the ball. The nurse in question got a warning (ass chewing) and that is all altough my wife nor I made a stink about it as she can go a few days without the medication before going into a deep depression which then requires hospitalization because she becomes suicidal.

[inthebrain]

54. Yes she did

She even admitted to it in the article. I posted the quote.

The person who complained also stated that although she was not offended she was worried that others would be because the nurse assumed her religious practices. The nurse never bothers to assess what the patient wanted and assumed.

I don't know what you're example has to do with the subject matter but that nurse should have gotten axed and the minimum suspended.

What do you mean you didn't make a stink about it?

[Kaleva]

74. "What do you mean you didn't make a stink about it?"

I meant we didn't file a complaint or anything like that. My wife just mentioned to the morning nurse that she had not gotten her meds the evening before.

[inthebrain]

56. I'm just curious about this....

Knowing that I'm agnostic.

Would you think it appropriate if I ask patients if they want to discuss Darwin, Evolution or Natural Selection when they are in hospital bed?

[Kaleva]

73. An answer

I myself would not consider it inappropriate if you were to ask patients if they wanted to discuss Darwin, Evolution or natural selection. The patient can always decline to engage in such a discussion.

But, as I said before, the nurse could have gotten a warning and I still think an unpaid suspension is rather extreme.

[BlooInBloo]

48. Good. Next step: suspend, fire and prohibit from working again those who refuse to implement...

properly-prescribed treatments from doctors for non-medical reasons. Get rid of every last fucking one of them.

[tavalon]

61. Did you think this would get so much traffic?

[LisaL]

66. I think that if situation was a described, she should have been

warned not to do it anymore, not suspended.

[mainer]

68. I'm an atheist, and I'm appalled by the nurse's firing.

She was only trying to offer comfort to the patient. That's what nurses do, in whatever way they know how. If she didn't push the issue, why should a patient -- even an atheist -- get offended?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

71. Exactly.

It's not like she asked repeatedly or just went ahead and started praying anyway or anything. What she did she did with a golden heart and pure intentions, and I find nothing that can possibly be construed as offensive, unethical or out of line by any rational standard.

[aikoaiko]

75. Another athiest who agrees with you.

Unless there is more to the story, it was merely a caring offer.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

69. My Heart Goes Out To This Nurse. Such A Wonderful Woman Having To Go Through This Bullshit.

I hope it all works out for her and she's back on the job soon. God bless her.

[TwilightGardener]

72. You know, if someone who was treating me offered to say a prayer for me..

I'd think "Geez, I must be in worse shape than I thought." That said, she should be reprimanded--suspension is a little much. That should be reserved for significant deviations from the standard of care, not for a misguided attempt to offer comfort.

[SidDithers]

76. How 'bout just sticking to the changing of dressings...

and leave the superstition where it belongs.

Sid

[erinlough]

77. What is it with people who offer to pray for you?

Honestly I've never understood or appreciated it. Is it an insinuation that they, the prayer, have a clearer line to God? Do they subscribe to the notion that if God hears it from more than one source he will more likely give you what you want? Do they evaluate you as they watch you and decide they are closer to God than you are, or that you are in pain so you must have done something wrong that pissed off God and they will fix it? When someone asks me, or offers to, pray for me I tell them I can and probably should say my own prayers since I feel I can have a personal relationship and I don't need their intercession.

[cynatnite]

78. As an atheist, I find this to be a bit harsh...

maybe writing her up would have been more appropriate.

[NeedleCast]

79. Insanity

hell, I'm practically an atheist and I have no problem with that. If it turns out there is a god, then it cant hurt.

[malaise]

80. Good

Keep your religion to yourself.

[rainbow4321]

82. 2 things I never bring up while talking to my patients

Politics and religion. Cuz it just takes ONE patient to go and complain.
Politics is a no-no, especially, cuz I work at a county hospital and they frown on county workers who technically can be seen as "representing" the county while on the clock.
Back when voter registration was going on, we were allowed to put a generic "register to vote" and the deadline to register on our boards that hang in the patient areas and my boss let me send out a generic "I'm a deputy voter registrar so if you need to register let me know and I have the paperwork you need to mail in".
Because I am UU, I purposely avoided using "Have a Merry Christmas" to our patients like the rest of the staff would say... I refused to assume all of our patients were/are Christians, so I just said "Happy Holidays!!" as they left the clinic.

[erinlough]

83. Thank you, you are the kind of hospital employee I hope I encounter.n/t

[NNN0LHI]

84. If that had been my Jewish aunt she tried that on she would have been out looking for a new job

I know my aunt. She is a convert but takes her religious woo woo very seriously.

Don

[Thickasabrick]

85. Maybe the patient felt this was like "last rites" or something. Still

seems a little harsh but people shouldn't assume other people have the same religious views which obviously this nurse did.

[cherokeeprogressive]

87. Fire the religion loving bitch. Fire her family members if they believe like she does.

Fire ANYONE who mentions prayer outside of a church, synagogue, or mosque. Fire anyone seen with a bible outside of their home if it isn't Sunday morning and they're not on their way to pray in PRIVATE.

While we're at it, churches, synagogues, and mosques should be charged property taxes for the land they occupy. I say we create a special super-huge property tax rate for every one of them. They don't do any good for the community anyway. Hundreds, if not thousands go unfed every day because of religion. It serves no purpose, does no good, and serves only to brainwash people into believing in something as unprovable as the existence of UFO's. How fucking stupid are they anyway?

Fire the bitch for refusing to come over from the dark side.

:sarcasm: