US Soldiers killing unarmed Iraqi citizens

[Dangerman]

http://www.ichblog.eu/index.php?option=com_seyret&task=videodirectlink&id=543

Please tell me they're shooting under fear and on self-defense.

Is this supporting our troops? Saddam's crimes are apple pie compared to his!

[Monkeyman]

1. They are out of control holy crap where the hell are the NCO's

These kids should face a jury. I wonder if these are the kids right out of boot camp

[PDJane]

2. Seymour Hersh

has said that the US is fielding the most brutal army of occupation ever. I tend to believe him.

[Monkeyman]

3. I agree as a combat vet this crap is just not right

No Chain of Command. We need to get these kids home and into treatment. America will not be safe if we don't.

[coalition_unwilling]

45. Much as I like Hersh, our army of occupation is not the

most brutal ever. Try the German Wehrmacht in Poland and the USSR during World War II or, more recently, the U.S. military in Vietnam.

[whistle]

4. A moral obscenity based on the lust for killing without any objective

...without conscience and for the purpose of getting their kicks as in a virtual reality video game. These soldiers have become psychopathic killers and will be sociopaths, misfits if they make it back into civilian life. I have no idea how long ago these videos were taken, but this must be stopped now! This is the Donald Rumsfeld neoconservative legacy which hangs over our military culture like a toxic cloud.

[Wcross]

5. That's what the blogger claimed.

If you watch the entire clip there is no evidence offered that any of those killed were in fact civilians or unarmed. As a matter of fact the clip specifically states that no unarmed people were killed. (You have to watch the whole thing and wait for the "credits" at the end.)
All I saw was soldiers shooting at an unknown threat. If there was something I missed (other than the title the blogger gave the clip) to suggest they were killing unarmed civilians, please point it out to me.

Bash Bush, he sent the soldiers there. Unless you have evidence of a crime, second guessing guys with their asses on the line rubs me the wrong way.

[Monkeyman]

7. Show me a weapon I looked and looked where is it

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. It will need sound enhancement

but I did listen to it a couple times and it did sound, at the beginining, like they were taking fire, about the first two seconds

As to the rest... yep, they should have stopped firing as soon as they got the threat under control, assuming my ears did not lie to me...

Something about reasessing the threat and all that

[Monkeyman]

10. Your Point is right on re watched.

[Crabby Appleton]

12. near the end, after the cease fire

someone warns "stay low, stay low, that fuckin sniper round hit right where you're at, dude"

[Sapphocrat]

6. And this is news...

...because... uh... um... why, exactly?

"We had a great day... We killed a lot of people"

[Zywiec]

8. I guess this is Apple Pie

compared to a blurry video from an EU site of our soldiers without any context.

[Dangerman]

13. Yeah, I guess you're right...

Unless you forget the fact that the US placed thousand of pound of Depleted Uranium all over Iraq.

And THe Bushes and Clinton killed more Iraqis than Saddam with sanctions, bombings and invasions.

[LynnTheDem]

35. Iraqis; WORSE OFF NOW than they ever were under Hussein.

And let's see; US of A under George w. bush kills off 655,000 Iraqis in 4 years.

Hussein ruled for 30 years and the bush Cabal claim he killed 250,000 Iraqis during that time.

You do the math. it ain't fuzzy.

[sanskritwarrior]

11. You can hear an AK-47 throughout the video

as well as what sounds like one mortar round landing......incoming type

I hear a lot of M-16's firing and at least one .50cal somewhere in the distance.

This reminds me of the bad old days when I was in Ramadi in early 2004.

But I fail to see them killing anyone indiscriminately. The ROE's clearly state if you take fire and know where it came from, it's weapons hot until the senior person in command feels the threat has passed.......

Looks and sounds like a regular old firefight to me. What am I supposed to be seeing?

The two cars that roll up are white opel's.......We have clear orders to engage anyone in a white opel in al anbar province since the shiekhs say outlawed them. Al qaeda was using white opel's to move arms and bombs around, so the governing tribal leaders in Al anbar outlawed the cars, anyone now driving one has a huge bullseye on them.

Also on watching the video several times, they are definitely taking AK-47 rounds and that is definitely at least one incoming mortar round, you can hear it come in right after the one Marine orders the other one to "get that fucker up" in reference to the AT-4 rocket launcher. I'm not trying to lessen the video but those are the sounds I have heard in more firefights than I want to remember. Also all the shouting might seem abrasive to the casual viewer, but that is how communication takes place in a firefight. Adrenaline is flowing, people are yelling it seems totally chaotic and yet order is maintained 99% of the time.

[Dangerman]

14. If that's true...

Then why didn't I see it?

Those "white Opels" could be any car.

And it's a war crime! I don't believe there was a single sniper around the area.

I don't believe this one bit. I seen this video a dozens times. And there is NO AK-47 fire.

Read this:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article17393.htm

[Wcross]

17. "I don't believe there was a single sniper around the area."

Easy to say sitting in the comfort of your own home. I am not about to second guess our troops. I am not going to doubt other posters who have been in a firefight in Iraq. I have been out of the Marine corps for 20 years now, I have never been to Iraq. You have heard from someone who has and they are telling you the way it is.
Watch this video.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5b3_1172321253

I work with a man who lost his son to one of your "non-existent" snipers. When the kid was killed I am sure he didn't believe there was a sniper in the area either.

[mike_c]

19. dude, they CHEERED and BRAGGED about...

..."I fucked those people up, dude!"

They were shooting at anything that came into their field of fire.

[Wcross]

20. Oh the horror!!!!!

They are not policemen. Marines are trained to kill everything in their field of fire. So what if a young kid says something you find objectionable. He DID fuck those people up. Of course neither of us was there and we only saw a couple of minutes of what really happened. I would give our guys the benefit of the doubt over some blogger opinion of what he saw.

[mike_c]

23. you and I will always be on opposite sides of a cultural divide on issues like this...

...I think. You find their actions acceptable, I find them reprehensible. I hate what they are doing in my name, and will do anything I can do to stop it. I do not support them. If it were in my power I would see them brought before war crimes tribunals.

We will never see eye-to-eye on this, I suspect.

[Wcross]

27. You find it reprehensible they defended themselves?

Direct your anger at their commander in chief, he's the one that sent them there.

[bonito]

36. I agree thats where the problem lies

Just because the shooting has stopped theres no way of knowing if a rpg is getting ready to come your way, these guys are afraid and want to return home to their families. And those responsible for this illegal war must be held accountable.

[sanskritwarrior]

31. so someone defending themselves

deserves The Hague? Ok I think I'm going to make sure I never talk to you again. I have done what these young men have done and more. It is no crime to defend yourself in a war zone.

[Wcross]

34. sanskritwarrior, I can not condemn anyone fighting for their life.

I don't know how anyone who hasn't had their life on the line in a gunfight could even THINK about making a judgement based on a video such as was presented.
I believe those saying it is a "war crime" don't have a clue. It really disgusts me to see posters slander our troops like that. I don't think the war was justified but as ignorant as I am, EVEN I can understand that Bush is the one that should be held accountable, not the grunt in the field.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zhade]

43. You sure are quick to believe people who SAY they were in Iraq.

You didn't fall for the WMD lies too, did you?

[sanskritwarrior]

22. It does not matter

White Opel's are targets. Much like anyone wearing the black clothers and green sash of Jaish al Mahdi..........

A White Opel is treated like an enemy combatant. If we see one we are under orders to destroy the car and kill anyone in that car. It is in our ROE so no I don't feel bad. I have seen, heard of, or read of way too many attacks in Al anbar using White Opel cars in their attacks. LOL no AK fire...........WOW I say there is and I've been there, you say there's not, people will believe what they want..........

[Richard Steele]

48. And that doesn't strike you as the least bit INSANE?

"Shoot to kill" orders for a particular model of CAR, fer chrissakes?

Anyone who thinks that's right and proper....ain't right or proper.

[Little Wing]

24. because you're watching a tape made from a crap homemade camera

held by someone thinking they are or actually are getting shot at, which is then compressed for the internet

You need a big green flashing arrow pointing out the weapons as proof?

[TahitiNut]

28. It's Quentin Tarantino, of course.

:crazy:

[TahitiNut]

21. I had the same impressions ... and it's been a long time for me.

I just can't condemn an action based on that video. :shrug:

[dkofos]

15. That sure made me proud to be an American

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

sick muthafuckers

[Toots]

16. I would bet most anything that the majority of Iraqis killed have been unarmed civilians

Over a half million people are dead and I doubt very seriously they are all Al Qaeda....

[Xenotime]

18. This is horrible. WE are the terrorists we sought to rid the world of...

Who will be coming after us? China? Iran? I fear * has made us an enemy of the world.

[coalition_unwilling]

46. We have met the enemy and he is . . . us (Pogo) -n/t

[EFerrari]

25. The sitting ducks fight back and against the wrong target.

:(

THIS IS WHY some of us were so upset last week. It's a no win situation.

[DubiousLee]

26. They are shooting in defense...

there is AK fire throughout the video. Looks justified to me.

[sanskritwarrior]

32. And one incoming mortar round.......

not one person has commented on that fact.......

[Wcross]

29. Have you ever been a member of the armed forces?

It would explain a lot. Yes or no?

[NNN0LHI]

30. We used Shock And Awe on people that never threatened or attacked us

We rained bombs on men, women and children for days on end. We are never going to live this down.

Don

[The Stranger]

33. And only three recommendations . . .

[Wcross]

37. I will tell you why I can't "recommend the post".

Kind of hard to recommend a video claiming that it shows our troops killing "civilians" when it is obviously a gunfight between combatants.

1) Did you notice the two "civilian cars" arrived within seconds of each other and both attempted to turn down the road from which the fire was coming? Why is it we see NO MORE cars before or after? Surely a road used by two "civilian" vehicles within seconds of each other would have at least ONE more vehicle pass by?

2) Why did we only see the end of the video?

3) If it were a "war crime" -shooting unarmed civilians, why was the cameraman staying low "as if" he were being shot at? My guess is because he WAS being shot at.

4) The charge of a war crime is EXTREMELY serious. It could result in a death sentence in fact. To watch a partial clip of grainy Internet video and declare a war crime is ludicrous.

[The Stranger]

39. Okay, then.

Kind of hard to recommend a video claiming that it shows our troops killing "civilians" when it is obviously a gunfight between combatants.

"Obvious" nonsense. You seem to be missing what is staring you right in the face. These "soldiers" are gloating over "fucking people up" and exulting in killing (possibly murdering) other human beings. They are indulging in an orgy of violence and killing. Is there one single fucking incoming round seen in the video? Again, to point out the obvious which you choose to ignore, the very fact that someone is filming a fire fight is compelling evidence that they are not in fear of being shot, or else they would feel free enough to film the "firefight."

1) Did you notice the two "civilian cars" arrived within seconds of each other and both attempted to turn down the road from which the fire was coming? Why is it we see NO MORE cars before or after? Surely a road used by two "civilian" vehicles within seconds of each other would have at least ONE more vehicle pass by?

You are claiming that you should have seen MORE cars in the firefight? That doesn't make any sense at all. If there were MORE cars, you would claim that it wasn't really a firefight, or that the cars had "terrorists" in them. You seem to go to great lengths to deny what is staring right at you.

2) Why did we only see the end of the video?

The end and the orgy of joy over the deaths is enough to see. If they had shown the beginning, you would be here claiming that "we only see the beginning of the video" and complaining that, in the end, they all make friends or find out that it was all justified.

3) If it were a "war crime" -shooting unarmed civilians, why was the cameraman staying low "as if" he were being shot at? My guess is because he WAS being shot at.

Holy fucking shit -- how was the cameraman even feeling free enough to sport film this death and destruction? This is a souvenir to show friends later. This isn't "G.I. Diary." Your guess as to who was being shot at is less than worthless.

4) The charge of a war crime is EXTREMELY serious. It could result in a death sentence in fact. To watch a partial clip of grainy Internet video and declare a war crime is ludicrous.

Look, everyone knows how serious and how bad it is. It isn't easy to reach the point where you can admit soldiers are committing war crimes. But to remain in denial is not the answer. It is time for justice to be done and for all war crimes to be revealed for what they are.

[Wcross]

40. That is a creative "twisting" of what I said.

Those were NOT civilians "innocently driving by". You are seeing a "war crime" because you don't have a clue what is going on in that video. You are seeing a war crime because that's what you want to see.

[The Stranger]

42. I see what I see and am no longer afraid to admit the truth.

Some day I hope you will be too.

[Wcross]

49. Fact of the matter is I see no evidence of a "war crime".

One someone makes a claim as serious as that they ought to be able to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. Nobody on this thread has done that so far.
I am not trying to pick a fight with you stranger. I do not support this war and I want our troops home TODAY. I do however value the lives of our young men and women who are in harms way and will continue to be so until we get them out of there. I don't want them to hesitate to use whatever force they deem necessary to protect their own lives. I don't want them to think they can't shoot back because someone might see a video and jump to conclusions.

[Pastiche423]

38. Wow!

Just fucking wow! The bloodlust by some posters in this thread make me beyond ill.

KILL KILL KILL!

Kill those brown people who have done NOTHING to American citizens.

[Wcross]

41. Those troops are American citizens.

I wish our troops weren't there in the first place. I wish they didn't have to defend themselves. There is no "bloodlust" here. I am disgusted somebody can even think they can judge these men by a short video on the Internet. I am disgusted that people are claiming what they saw was a "war crime".
Why you had to throw in "the race card" (Kill those brown people who have done NOTHING ) is beyond me.

[pettypace]

47. Speaking as a non-veteran

Our frustration lies in the fact that you have a fully trained warrior unit, the finest in the world, targeting a bunch of rag-tag locals. I mean, it doesn't look good to go into another man's country and blow his tail to kingdom-come. It builds resentment to those who view it. Think about how Iraqi's, Arabs, and Muslims picture these scenes, when even in the US people become upset about it, as evidenced by DU posters.

Bigger picture always comes into play because of course you're right, the warriors must protect themselves in hostile situations, no matter the sorry politics involved.

[Wcross]

50. Well put pettypace.

I can't blame the troops for defending themselves. I can blame their commander in chief for putting them in a situation where they HAVE to do it.

[Xithras]

51. I've got to concur with some of the posters here. Not what it seems.

Yes, there is AK fire in there. Anyone who's ever heard one fire will recognize the "clack-clack". And yes, there is one mortar, and possibly a second at -1:57. Also, the body present in the roadway isn't from either of the cars. It's present in the roadway from the very beginning of the tape, when the firefight is already underway.

The deaths of the people in the cars is tragic (if assumed...there is no video of bodies from the cars, just the comment of the one soldier in the background), but they drove right into the crossfire of an active firefight. There is very little a soldier can do at that point.

As for their attitudes, well, that's a coping mechanism and it's as old as war itself. When one human kills another, he has two choices. He can dehumanize them to minimuze the loss, or he can be wracked with grief. Since soldiers cannot afford to grieve, dehumanization is the only option. Wars have always been this way. The fairy tale that soldiers were once noble and respectful is a baseless myth.