IF free trade ended tomorrow and we re-instituted tariffs

[Horse with no Name]

How long before the Dollar Stores shut down and WalMart would no longer be able to stock their shelves?

[NMDemDist2]

1. every retail store

we don't make clothes or electronics anymore and very little of anything else

[ContinentalOp]

24. We make plenty of clothes, and we burn through far too many. -nt-

[yourout]

2. I think you would be suprised how fast things would start getting made here again...

Yes they would cost more but the money would stay here and eventually wages would go up.

[dysfunctional press]

6. it might actually take longer than you think...

all the production lines/machinery have either been shipped overseas or sold as scrap and then shipped overseas.

[yourout]

9. I have been around factory automation for the last 20+ years and....

right now alot of machine builders are hurting for work. Getting things brought back here would be a huge boom to the average Joes and eventually Union membership would grow with it.

[Two Americas]

25. very quickly

There is an army of skilled people desperate to go back to work. Capital is being hoarded and manipulated - that is the problem. Before that, de-regulated finance was investing in outsourcers, manipulators, knock-off builders, cheap labor seekers and every other sort of hustler and con man who might promise "fabulous" ROI. It was all bullshit, right from the start.

If we are going to continue to be held hostage by Wall Street, then yes, it could take a long, long time to rebuild our infrastructure and manufacturing base. However, free the people from the tyranny of the financial industry, and the fur will fly in a big hurry. A big hurry.

The whole point, and only purpose, for Wall Street, the financial industry, banks and investors is to support the producers, not the other way around. Get that right, and everything becomes possible and things can happen extremely quickly.

[Greyhound]

34. Exactly. We (Americans) are caught in this mind set of "needing" our

masters. We have honestly come to believe that the thieves are the source of wealth. It's actually kind of depressing.

But what you say is true, if we take the power of our currency supply and allocation back from those that have stolen it, we could turn this whole mess around in a relatively short time. It simply requires that the plentiful resources we have are directed to where it is needed without the parasites stealing a third of it and directing it toward where it benefits only them, we can have the country back to work in a few months with significant progress starting this week.

[Two Americas]

40. manipulation of capital

That is what slows things down. The working people are ready to start at dawn tomorrow and they know how to get it done.

What takes time is for the barons of finance to figure out how to set things up so they can steal the maximum amount of wealth out of any project the people build. Politicians need to be bribed, the attorneys need to write up contracts that screw people, the think tanks have to get to work to make up phony propaganda to sell the people on the proposed theft, "journalists" need to be briefed or bribed, the right people must be placed in key government positions. It is hard work, I tell ya!

[acmavm]

44. It also might not take AS LONG as YOU think. Detroit retooled in 4

days during WWII. They had to so the did it.

We don't need cheap foreign junk. Some people just think we do.

[cynatnite]

8. Not any time soon...that's for sure. n/t

[Dreamer Tatum]

11. Yes, things would get made: home-made

I can't believe that anyone would suggest protectionism during a worldwide recession.

[razors edge]

14. And I suppose all the Titanic needed

was more ice.

This is not going to be easy no matter how we address it. If you think we can continue to police the world (read: keep the world safe for American business) and maintain a domestic agenda, then you are in for a rude awakening.

When the USSR crashed, it took 15 years for them to begin to recover. It wasn't through globalization that they got back in the black and paid off their debts.

[Dreamer Tatum]

21. Where'd you get that crap from?

Go read The Forgotten Man. Worthwhile reading.

[DJ13]

3. No one thinks it would happen overnight

It would have to be a gradual move, but its a move we need to consider if we dont want most of our workforce making hamburgers.

[rwheeler31]

4. It would be hard for a bit , we would be better off in the long run.

[Radical Activist]

5. We'd go without a lot of crap for a few months.

Then factories would reopen. Some things would cost more but far more people would have decent jobs that allow them to buy more stuff.

The current economic crisis is meant to condition us to the new free trade economy where the US standard of living is significantly lower. Kind of like the way $2.00/gallon gas seems really cheap now. Low wages and near poverty will seem commonplace.

[cynatnite]

10. A few months?

Without the equipment and the money for financing...I'd say a few years.

[Radical Activist]

12. there will be financing.

financing will be attracted when a market demand exists. communities can seize factories if they have to.

[cynatnite]

15. Banks have to be willing to grant credit and they're not...

it takes money and communities don't have it to pay workers and other operating costs.

[Radical Activist]

16. that's when we build a new economic system.

Businesses use taxpayer backed loans to start projects all the time. There's no need to rely on banks. Or, we create community investment banks. Or, we create companies by selling shares to people in the community to start it up and then the entire community benefits from the profits instead of executives who live 1,000 miles away.

Or do what these guys did.
http://www.thetake.org/

There are plenty of alternatives to the game rigged by the multinational corps.

[cynatnite]

17. Meanwhile, people starve and get kicked out of their homes...

while someone's thinking up a new economic system.

[Radical Activist]

19. nah. people are more resourceful than that.

you underestimate the public. we can grow food here. there are ways to keep people in their homes too. Cook county has already stopped most evictions. the scenario in the OP is unrealistic anyway. No one's going to do that.

[cynatnite]

20. Not everyone is Laura Ingalls or Grizzly Adams...

Do you know how many plants I've killed? I can't grow shit.

Anyway, your scenario is just as unrealistic as the OP's.

[Radical Activist]

22. it has been done before

follow the link i posted. community investment banks are perfectly realistic. we already throw millions of public dollars, bonds and loans to build crap and call it economic development. all we have to do is redirect it in new ways. it's pretty simple.

and it will take a long time before we run out of food to share.

[cynatnite]

23. Yes, done in Argentina...

The US is not Argentina and this kind of thing would still take years.

People have to wake up to the fact we live in a global economy. While there are a few success stories such as this there is no realistic way to repeat this sort of thing worldwide or even here in the US on a massive scale.

The US needs to develop resources to replace manufacturing for the long term. Going green, developing infrastructure, advancing technology, improving health care and raising education is a good start.

Obama knows that we can't bring those jobs back in a realistic fashion. This is why he's promoting those very things that I mentioned. We need to develop for the future and to stop clinging to the past.

[Radical Activist]

37. ok debbie downer.

Argentina can do it but not Americans? wow.

Nothing on your list for developing the economy requires the WTO. Some heavy metals might cost more. That's about it.

Pretending we have to accept the current trade system because we live in a global economy is a false choice. There are plenty of ways to have a global economy that's designed to lift all boats instead of the WTO/World Bank/IMF system that's rigged to benefit multinational corps.

If we can spend public dollars to prop up banks and help Peabody build new coal power plants then we can spend public dollars to finance new factories. There's nothing difficult or unrealistic about it. We can do it just as fast as the US mobilized for WW2.

[girl gone mad]

31. So your solution is to keep Americans wholly dependent..

on transnational corporations?

Clearly, that isn't working since those corporations are now begging to suckle on the taxpayer teat after spending billions buying our government to avoid paying taxes and bust up labor unions.

[cynatnite]

33. Better management and not allowing them to get so big is a start...

That would have a much quicker impact on the economy than trying to think up a whole new system.

The system we've got is a good one. It's been corrupted by greed and has been deregulated way too much.

Fact is, the corporation isn't going anywhere. I don't care if people get rich. It's a part of the American dream. The problem is rewarding bad behavior, deregulation and allowing these big companies to run rampant without a care for the workers.

I don't care if the government hands about a couple of trillion bucks. They can give out however much they want.

Fixing the problems and protecting the worker is what I want to see happen. That should come first.

[JuniperLea]

58. There's something you can do

And that something can be bartered for the things you can't do. Not everyone can do everything, but all of us can do something.

[JuniperLea]

57. You'd be surprised at how many venture capitalists there are...

Just waiting for an opportunity like this. People that have money to invest in such things are holding onto it, for obvious reasons.

[Hannah Bell]

29. lincoln financed the start of the civil war on greenbacks so he wouldn't have to borrow from

international bankers. it worked.

if you're willing to go there, there's always a way.

[Greyhound]

38. You have to understand two things, the banks do not own the money,

and it's only value is that we agree it has value.

That just leaves the actual work to be done, and we have an abundance of people in every field necessary to accomplish that.

The US is nearly unique in that we have what we need here. There are very few other nations that can claim that.

[Horse with no Name]

13. My thoughts exactly.

Ultimately, we are going to suffer. It will be our choice if that suffering is temporary or permanent.
This is the ONLY way to pull ourselves out of the pyre.

[Motown_Johnny]

7. it would be better to phase them in so Americans could start up companies to produce the items

that are now imported due to our lack of tariffs

I am in favor of tariffs. The idea that it is cheaper to ship copper mined in America over to China to be made into fittings and then shipped back than it is to manufacture those fitting here is insane.


Fuck dollar stores, Fuck the massive chains that make billions of dollars off Americans by selling us good manufactured with (virtual) slave labor.

China's trade status should once again be linked to it's human rights record too!

[ColbertWatcher]

18. I agree with this.

Someone in America will fill the vacuum.

[KoKo]

26. DAMMIT! Go Shop at Good Will, Salvation Army, Vietnam Vets, Thrift Stores, Consignment Stores

in your Neighborhood or if you are RURAL then go to the Nearest City (Gas Prices are Way Down) and find all that great stuff the AFFLUENT CONSUMER is DISCARDING. Stuff with Price Tags still on it (my Goodwill Store here in North Carolina) and Furniture and other Good Stuff at Consignment Stores.

I'm telling you that our CONSUMER SOCIETY and the DOWNSIZING had RICHES for those who are clever and know how to look. Small Appliances (New in Boxes as cast off Christmas and Birthday Gifts) all sitting there for very little money...and all because we BINGED OURSELVES OUT ON CHEAP CHINESE for OVER 10 YEARS!

There's stuff that could take TEN YEARS to work OFF out there for REDUCED PRICES...you'd NEVER FIND and better quality than the CRAP they are now DOWNSIZED SELLING RETAIL!

Get OUT THERE...and go to Library and read "Consumer Reports Magazine" or Google "Recalls and Lead Paint" before you go...but there is GOOD STUFF that was OVER BOUGHT in our YEARS OF EXCESS in most Cities! Not Rural but your nearest Cities THRIFT PLACES.

We can go a LONG TIME on RICH FOLKS TRASH as they DOWNSIZE. It's good for us to do this!

[NMDemDist2]

27. there are only two things I miss moving from the Big City to my tiny town

Costco and thrift shops

[KoKo]

28. Gas Prices are down...big time...make it a weekend Fund Trip to nearest City

to visit all those great Thrift, Consignment stores. For those who love to Shop and just want a Time Out...rather than buying at Malls stuff...it's a great weekend drive to get to that City have a break while getting needed stuff of better quality than the crap that's discounted in the finest Department Stores and even what Wally World is selling these days.

My family did it back in the 70's when times were rough. Couldn't afford a house...job cuts during Nixon and then Carter/Reagan. We did very well...and it was FUN!

[Horse with no Name]

42. Been doing that for years

Had some great finds at the Goodwill this week.
Purchased 4 pair of nice capri pants for my Granddaughter. They were half price and ended up costing me $6 for all four pair. Fashionable, good shape, good brands. They will see her through the Spring/Summer quite nicely and then we will recycle them again to someone else.
I also purchased a couple of nice things for the house. One item is a collectible that I paid $6 and its value is $50.
You are 100% correct. We have enough "stuff" sitting in garages and Goodwill stores to tide us over until we could get things going again in THIS country.

[taught_me_patience]

30. Good thing this will never happen

Globalization has greatly increased our quality of life. Going back to protectionism now would be dangrous and stupid.

[girl gone mad]

32. No. The credit bubble increased our quality of life.

Now that it has popped, most Americans will experience a rapid erosion of our standard of living as we will no longer be insulated from the full effects of globalization.

[taught_me_patience]

35. The credit bubble has not affected my life one iota

Being able to buy a HD TV for $800 has greatly increased my quality of life.

[girl gone mad]

41. How do you think alll of the companies that make televisions..

got the money to expand and build factories around the world?

Why do you think they were able to ramp up production?

Where do you think the money that allowed so many Americans to buy HDTV's came from?

You need to get a clue about leverage, corporate debt, the housing bubble, HELOCs and how the credit bubble has impacted every aspect of our economy.

[taught_me_patience]

48. That's called the normal course of business

the credit bubble pumped trillions into the economy from helocs and cashout refis - something I didn't participate in. I have a degree in economics and an mba so I think I know a little bit about business.

[Runcible Spoon]

51. If you buy or sell ANYTHING you are participating in it. Derf.

You might wanna mail your degrees back to whatever "school" they came from and demand a refund, because you got majorly ripped off :rofl:

[taught_me_patience]

52. Please explain your position.

I'd like to know the difference between credit used in the normal course of business and the credit bubble which allowed millions of americans to purchase items that they couldn't afford.

[Raksha]

36. Good point!

[Horse with no Name]

43. Bingo. You are correct.

And as quickly as the credit bubble enriched your life--it will make it many times as miserable.

[Radical Activist]

39. No. Real wages fall as our trade deficit increases.

http://www.epi.org/economic_snapshots/entry/webfeatures_snapshots_archive_02282001/

This figure shows that the stagnation and decline in real wages for U.S. production workers strongly corresponds with the worsening of the U.S. balance of trade in goods (measured on the right hand axis).

[taught_me_patience]

49. Correlation does not equal causation.

US production worker wages have been falling because of technological innovation. Machines can produce the same goods cheaper and faster than human workers. Thus, wages fall because human workers need to stay competitive with machines.

[Radical Activist]

53. Oh give me a break.

I can name a dozen towns within 100 miles of me where most of the people are living in poverty. It isn't because of mechanization. It's because they moved the factory to another country. Mechanization is a factor but using that to deny the effects of trade agreements is weak.

[eridani]

61. The "owners" of the machines could have contracts taken out on them

Then workers could use the machines to make stuff they need or want.

[Horse with no Name]

45. Let's start with something easy

Did your Mom or Grandma have a washing machine? Odds are that it was "Made in the USA".
How much did it cost them? But even MORE important, how long did it last?
I have one of those fancy, schmancy washers and dryers--front loading, water saving, etc.
Cost me almost $3000. Made in China. It is about a year old and I have an appointment for "warranty work". I highly doubt with what I have seen, that it will last 5 years.
What did this replace?
A 25 year old set (Maytag) that I purchased at a Garage Sale years ago and hauled halfway across the country and back at least once.
Which one is actually the most economical set and the better value? I judge that I will put 5 sets of these in landfills in the same amount of time that I put one of my old sets.

I, too, have one of those fancy, schmancy HDTV's that I received as a gift/bribe from my SIL. It replaced a Curtis Mathes console that STILL had a wonderful picture after 20+ years.
As far as the sharper images, etc? It's only a TV. I don't NEED to be THAT entertained. It is ONLY a television.
How long do I expect it to last? No more than 5 years. Again, how many of these will be in the landfill? That isn't good for the environment, either.

Again, tell me how globalization has greatly increased our "quality" of life?

Quality of life is increased by LIVING and spending your time doing worthwhile things--not by amassing cheap Chinese crap.

My old washer and dryer worked perfectly for a very long time. My clothes were clean.
However, now I have to purchase "special" soap that costs $15 a bottle for my fancy machine and my clothes are not ANY cleaner than they were with my old machine.
I still watch the same shows on TV. My quality of life has not gone up or down with replacing these items with their counterparts.
The only thing that I notice is that they both cost a LOT more for much less of a product.

[pampango]

46. Our export industries would collapse, when other countries raised their tariffs in response.

Some industries would be winners and some would be losers. Germany (#1) and China (#2) are having problems now with all of their unemployed export sector workers. We're #3 in exports, so I expect we would have big problems with those workers, as well.

[Vinca]

47. I unearthed a bundt cake pan from the back of the cupboard

the other day. Guess what was printed on it. "Made In the U.S.A." We used to make everything on our shores and there were plenty of good-paying jobs. The tariffs are fine in my mind. If I want to buy a set of Limoges china, I'll pay a little more. Maybe I'll decide to buy Lenox instead. (P.S. I've got a bounty out for a "new old" American made toaster.)

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

50. If we re-instituted tariffs nobody would be able to afford to shop at dollar stores or Walmart.

It's a recipe for disaster.

[yourout]

54. Sure they would......wages would also go up.

[JuniperLea]

59. We don't need 80% of the crap we buy anyway

You have to think in terms of what we really need, not what we want. Besides, this is about a temporary measure to keep us all from swirling down the drain. Desperate times call for desperate measures.

[mdmc]

55. they would always be around..or at least for a while

they aint goin nowhere..

[W_HAMILTON]

56. We should reinstate them.

Free trade has only hurt us. We are one of -- if not THE -- dominant market in the world today. Everyone wants our purchasing power. We should have used that to operate from a position of power when it comes to trade. But instead, we essentially gave all these other nations the power to dictate our economy. If companies had to deal with an upcharge on all their cheap goods they are creating in their outsourced overseas factories, maybe we'd have retained more jobs and not be in such a dire economic situation.

[DainBramaged]

60. Quit the WTO, end NAFTA, CAFTA, DAFTA, and NAPTHA

fuck 'em all, become self-sufficient again.





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