I stand with MoveOn. They have done a lot for our country.

[madfloridian]

Here is their explanation from their website about the poll which other progressive groups which I hesitate to name...are using to attack them. Just like Fox is attacking them, we are doing it as well.

I did not even take the poll. I felt I did not need to do so right now. For now we are not getting out of Iraq even if we activists hold our breath until we turn blue.

I did a search today. I was stunned at the sites all repeating the hits on MoveOn...just like Fox and the right wing blogs. Just for different reasons.

The right wing attacks them because they fear their power. Our side attacks them because they are not perfect.

Here is the whole page explanation at the website.

http://pol.moveon.org/iraq/supplemental.html

Do MoveOn Members Really Support the Iraq Supplemental?
By Eli Pariser, Executive Director, MoveOn.org Political Action
Friday, March 23rd, 2007

MoveOn.org Political Action supports the passage of the Iraq Accountability Act. Because there are dedicated antiwar activists who oppose this bill, it’s worth explaining how we arrived at this position.

In order to strengthen the hand of progressives who were pushing for a better bill, MoveOn refrained from taking a public or private position until late last week. Then, when the final bill was negotiated, we put the question to our membership: should we support it? 126, 000 MoveOn members participated in the vote. 84.6% supported the bill. 9.2% said they weren't sure and 6.2% opposed it.

Why? The Iraq Accountability Act will, for the first time, set a deadline in law for the withdrawal of American troops. If it passes, it will force President Bush to agree to an end date for the war or to stand in front of the American people—who want a timeline—and declare his support for war without end by vetoing it . It’s a first step to ending the war. That’s why MoveOn members told us they support the bill.

Some folks passionately disagree with this position. And perhaps because it’s hard for them to believe that so many progressives would support a bill that provides continued funding for the war, a number have questioned the validity of our member poll on the bill. Here are some concerns we’ve heard, and the reality in each case:

The Claim: People were biased by our email because we noted that most Congressional progressives are supporting the bill and Republicans are opposing it.

The Reality: Leaving aside the question of whether this political context is, in fact, important for MoveOn members to know, it didn’t change the outcome of the poll.

Read the whole page.

So leave MoveOn if you must. Let them be attacked from the right and the left. They are still powerful, and they are on our side. Thank goodness for that.

It appears PDA and Cindy Sheehan supporters are most upset. That is your right. But don't forget we have a diverse party. I can work with MoveOn and DFA and the DNC. You can choose to work for Cindy's anti-war efforts and with PDA.

We do have choices.

[madfloridian]

1. Wow. I guess we know where Move On stands now.

I still stand with them because of all the good things they have done.

[Hekate]

3. Thanks, MF. I long ago gave up expecting humans to be the Second Coming of Christ

And I gave up letting the perfect defeat the damn-good-enough.

DU seems to have a lot of members these days who are only too eager to do the dirty work of the RW when it comes to tearing down the incremental efforts of Democrats and progressives. Hysterical shrieks of "Traitor!" because Nancy Pelosi got a bill passed that didn't demand the troops come home today, right this minute...

It really makes me cranky.

MoveOn.org has done a damn-good-enough job of rallying common-sense progressives ever since the Clinton impeachment. Their motto wasn't "All Repubs Go Home," it was "Censure and Move On," which was a damn sight more achievable.

Anyway, thanks for the post. I'm still a member of MoveOn, and shall remain so.

Hekate

[noamnety]

2. Not "our" side.

"Your" side.

Funding the war (crimes) is nothing even remotely related to my side.

[madfloridian]

5. Well, hot damn, just call me a war criminal supporter.

This is just so amazing to me. And I am the one accused here of being so pure by the DLC types....now the left is saying MoveOn and I support war crimes.

Well, hells bells, read my damn journal. Then get back to me.

:eyes:

[noamnety]

7. Financial support is support

and what we're doing there is a war crime.

if the shoes fit ...

[madfloridian]

10. If the shoes fit.....hey, I am not in congress.

What do you want me to do?

This is really getting to where it will hurt all of us.

I agree the dangers are real, I would love to defund. But I can't. Sorry, I don't have that power.

So you continue to insult. I am used to it from both sides here.

[noamnety]

15. I haven't asked you to do anything.

I have nothing but contempt for MoveOn at the moment. You've insulted me by implying their side is "my" side. It isn't.

My email to Eli:

The position MoveOn took on the Pelosi bill is disgraceful, the talking points are
misleading at best, flat out lies at worst - and frankly I think the "worst" is the more
accurate interpretation.

The bill promises nothing at all that's firm - except that the war (crimes) will continue
to be funded.

How on earth do you take a vote to spend $100 billion for US troops to continue raping
and killing Iraqi civilians, a bill that pays for yet more white phosphorous to be
dropped on Fallujah, and so on ... and tell us it's a first step toward not paying for it?

If a serial rapist kidnapped a woman and shoved her into his car while writing on his
hand "I'm gonna stop doing this 18 months from now, I swear it" would MoveOn vote to pay
for his next tank of gas?

Angry and disgusted.

[ripken08]

16. you know how the right

claims that by being against the war, you are against the troops? Well you give those people who fight against that a bad name.

I believe that most sane people realize that an overwhelming majority of American troops to do not go around raping and killing people.

I am angry and disgusted with your opinion. I never thought I would say this to another democrat, but you are not only against the war, but by the sound of your rhetoric, you are also against the troops, and that in fact makes me sick to my stomach.

[noamnety]

17. LOL. I AM one of "the troops."

Worked for the army from 84-99. My partner still works for them.

And I am NOT a democrat. I am an independent. There is a huge difference.

[JeffR]

4. I'm a bit of a heretic about such things, maybe

I like a lot of what they've done, dislike some of what they've done, and steadfatsly maintain my lifelong aversion to groups, organizations, collectives, etc. But that's just me. On balance, MoveOn is more than alright with me. I think they're on the right side of history.

[proud2BlibKansan]

6. Supporting a war is not a progressive value

I think we need moveon. But I also believe moveon should support progressive causes.

They are the one shutting us out, not the other way around.

[madfloridian]

12. Lee said today on AAR that her supplement would not have passed.

I would like everyone to be more liberal and progressive, but I am not going to kill the golden goose by demanding when Bush has the power.

[proud2BlibKansan]

21. He only has the power because the Dems give it to him

They need to be throwing everything they have at him. But they aren't.

I also don't see moveon as the golden goose. Not hardly.

[TreasonousBastard]

8. Gotta agree with you this time...

After all the good MoveOn has done over the years the pounding they're getting over this is unwarranted and extremely counterproductive.

As a veteran, and now a pacifist Quaker, involved with many anti-war and anti-militarism organizations, I have been living with both the attitudes of the die-hard "purist" pacifists and the realistic pacifists. And the not-really-pacifists, but against this particular war.

In the end, we can only do what we can do, and it is too often not enough. I am well aware of the frustration in many quarters that this war isn't ending any time soon but that frustration can't be turned on any allies we have just because we didn't get what we want.

One of the biggest problems I've had over the years trying to coordinate anti-war efforts is the almost complete lack of communication between our own factions. Even when we agree on some principles, we end up fighting over the details and everyone goes their own way.

It's frustrating and depressing, but no reason to eat our own.

[EFerrari]

11. Our own? MoveOn seems to consider us their own but doesn't reciprocate.

They are acting like bundlers, not like activists.

Maybe they will learn from this mistake.

[TreasonousBastard]

18. They're acting like the large organization they've become...

and not a bunch of raggedy "activists" full of the sound and fury.

Take them for what they are, just like any other large organization from AARP to Common Cause to the Sierra Club to MADD...

Everybody's not gonna agree with them all the time, but does any good they do outweigh the bad? If so, sign on and stop trashing them. If not, pass on by.

If, indeed, they are actually doing anything bad...

[EFerrari]

19. I already made my decision after working my butt off in 2004

with them only to have them bail when the election was stolen. They couldn't even get it together to support the recount.

You sure seem to have a low opinion of "raggedy activists" aka, the foot soldiers of the left.

[TreasonousBastard]

20. OK, so they're no good for you, and...

they don't really do all that much for me either, but there's that baby/bathwater thing.

Truth is, I'm pretty sick of the whole mess by now. And I'm really sick of gasbags rallying like crazy and nothing happens.

Been dealing with this since the '60s and found out long ago you get more done working in the background letting the rabble go out and rouse itself. Sometimes, it nice to get the problem noticed by the public, but other times it's embarassing to offer a solution just to be associated with some blowhard with a microphone. "Activism" comes in many forms, and the proof is in the results-- which are rarely to everyone's satisfaction.

Can't tell you how many times, and not just in politics, when I sat in awe of how long some people could argue over where to order the pizza from while the rest of us were just wnated a little nosh.

Really reinforces your faith in humanity when you listen to a long impassioned speech about hunger from someone who then says the empty food bank down the road really isn't his problem.

But, we slog on in an imperfect world...

[EFerrari]

22. Your point is well taken. And activism does take many forms. n/t

[thethinker]

9. If moveon.org really wanted to know

how their members feel, they would do a poll asking if people wanted to continue to fund the war.

Often, polls are slanted by the type of questions they ask. I suspect moveon got the response they wanted by the way they asked the question.

This isn't the first time they have sent emails to their members asking if they wanted A or B, when neither one was a good choice. I have emailed them in the past and pointed out that they didn't really want to know what I was thinking.

I think people resent the way this was handled by moveon. I pondered it for a very long tine and could not find an honest way of responding - so I didn't respond at all. I have a feeling a lot of people handled it that way. So, a lot of their members probably didn't vote at all, giving them the results they were looking for in the first place.

[Pastiche423]

13. I gotta disagree w/you on this one, mad

In their poll, they gave no choice to defund and end the war. But to make matters worse, they lied about how many members actually voted. (Until they started getting flack.)

In the past, I have given them money I truly din't have. That won't happen again.

Since 2004, what have they done for the left?

[Jcrowley]

14. Nah

It's only that the political discussion and framework in America has swung so far to the right that such a milkwater operation as MoveOn can be considered even mildly to the left or progressive or whatever label of the day is used.

It's pretty embarassing overall.

And "choices" is really just so much hammered in propaganda.

Pepsi or Coke?

C'mon. Please.

[madfloridian]

23. Dear MoveOn, you made a mistake and DU hates you now.

No forgiveness here.

[mondo joe]

24. Just like the people who said there was no difference between Bush and Gore.

Some people have very short memories.

[hfojvt]

27. we just want peace so badly

that we are willing to declare war on anybody who deviates from our master plan.

[Miss_Underestimated]

25. is it possible that MoveOn has been infiltrated?

I've read comments by Rove regarding MoveOn in the past; maybe this is his way of gutting what they do:shrug:

[helderheid]

26. MoveOn is what it is - and Progressive it is not.

[madfloridian]

28. I am progressive. MoveOn is progressive.

adj.

1. Moving forward; advancing.
2. Proceeding in steps; continuing steadily by increments: progressive change.
3. Promoting or favoring progress toward better conditions or new policies, ideas, or methods: a progressive politician; progressive business leadership.

And as a noun:

n.
1. A person who actively favors or strives for progress toward better conditions, as in society or government.
2. Progressive A member or supporter of a Progressive Party.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/progressive

I have been accused here of having Iraqnophobia. I disagree. I have a passion about this war, and I will do whatever I can to bring it to an end...if indeed that is possible.

I will not judge MoveOn for this. I have seen the same people attack Democrats and Democratic groups time after time after time. They don't go after the type of Democrats who supported this war. They go after people who have tried to make a difference.

Here's an example. One of the board members of PDA has posts on this all over the internet, condemning MoveOn. Also one of his favorite targets is Howard Dean, who does care and did speak up. Why not go after the ones who still support this war?

I am a Progressive. MoveOn is a Progressive group.

Too many here are too ready to condemn the ones trying to make change without hurting the fragile coalitions we do have.

[helderheid]

29. I've been watching MoveOn for years now - I have never found them progressive.

[madfloridian]

30. You don't think they fit the definition? What parts don't they fit?

If you don't think they work for change, then put me in that category. You must not think I am progressive either.

:shrug: :shrug:

[helderheid]

31. They work for change - I just don't think they are progressive per say - they were always late to

the party when it came to things like e-voting machines.

[AnnInLa]

32. Yes.....I'll second that!

And, I'll drink to it too. Great OP. K&R

[Mabus]

33. I still support MoveOn

I don't always agree with what they do but, like you and many others, that's why I don't put all my eggs in one basket. I work for the people and causes I support. When I disagree with the people or the causes I support I let them know. I'm not alone.

Thanks to MoveOn I have met a lot of activists locally and nationally and I think they've been instrumental in helping to make a difference. In the past few years alone I've made phone calls on behalf of candidates in other states and I've done voter registrations in other states. I work on the issues that I think will make a difference and I believe that MoveOn has helped connect me to some of those issues. Are they always right? Nope. But guess what? Neither am I but I do try to learn from my mistakes and try to be a better person because of them.

[Coexist]

34. me too.

they always send me polls, and I vote, and they go with the majority. I still support them.