House passes bill to extend DTV transition until June 12

[onenote]

Remember those stories saying that the House had "killed" the DTV transition extension bill and how this was a defeat for President Obama and the Democrats?

Well, the bill just passed the House (it already passed the Senate) by a vote of 264/158 with 241 Democrats and 23 repubs voting for it and 23 Democrats and 148 repubs voting against. And for those wondering what the "progressive" position on this bill was: among those voting for -- Dennis Kucinich. Among those voting against: Heath Shuler.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

1. This is absurd

The people who aren't ready now, won't be ready on June 12th either. And what about the people with TV's that don't have inputs for a converter box? Is there going to be another delay for them so the federal government can fund the development of a DTV to Analog converter-picotransmiter so the last three owners of Sony Watchmen don't lose out?

How many of the people waiting for the coupons even need a converter?

How many of them just went "Woo Hoo Free Shit!"

How many just wanted the coupon to buy the converter and put it on eBay?
http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=m38&_nkw=DTV+Converter&_sacat=See-All-Categories

An awful lot of them are still in their original boxes,

[JanusAscending]

3. And you know this ..how????

Can you see into peoples homes at their unopened boxes??? If the bushies had thought past their noses, they would have known that there wasn't enough money available, so that all who would need the boxes, could receive them!! I have a box. I didn't get a coupon. I have no money, and when they took away my access to MSNBC and CSPAN 2, I called and threatened to cancel my cable (comcast) It worked and they came to my house and installed it free!! I'm in Ct. and living on SS only. There are many Sr.'s out there in the same situation that I find myself in. They live alone like me, and the TV is their ONLY companion. It's nice that so many of you that are griping about this, don't have to worry about losing your best friend !! Where is your EMPATHY??? I can last until June, why can't you????

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

8. And when the situation is unchanged come June?

The government shouldn't be funding these damn things in the first place.

When there is national healthcare, adaquate funding for public safety, public eduation, post-secondary education and a million other things I will be able to stomach the government handing out discounts on TV converters.

[onenote]

16. let's do the math: $1.34 billion to faciliate the transition

Over $20 billion raised (money goes into the Treasury) from the auction of the spectrum freed up by the transition.

And one of the uses for the freed up spectrum will be for public safety uses.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

22. still a waste of money

I can't think of a bigger waste of money with a possible exception of abstainance education - okay, you can had your coupons but the money has to come out of abstainance education.

[onenote]

27. So its a waste of money to spend $1.34 billion to get over $20 billion

that is then available for spending on things like SCHIP, etc?

Money is fungible. The things you want have to paid for. They can be paid for by tax dollars or paid for out of money that the treasury raises by auctioning the use of the spectrum reclaimed through the transition. If the IRS spent an additional $1.34 billion to get $20 billion in taxes would you consider it a waste of money?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

30. They get their $20 billion either way

even if they didn't fund the coupons they would have resold the spectrum

[onenote]

32. flaw: there would never, ever have been support for forcing the transition to happen

if it meant that millions of citizens, including mostly lower income, elderly and minority citizens -- would be forced to purchase converter boxes at $50-$60 apiece. There is a reason why Democrats supported assisting those in need of assistance and why the repubs opposed. I'm just surprised to find so many DUers siding with the repubs on this.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

34. Obsolescence has forced me to buy a lot of things over the years

Subsidizing consumer electronics is NOT a role of the federal government, when every American has healthcare, when every American who wishes to can attend university, when the federal budget is balanced lets talk about cheap TV converters.

Until then this is insanity.

[onenote]

38. if the goal had been to subsidize consumer electronics

the coupons would've been applicable to the purchase of new television sets with digital tuners or to more sophisticated boxes. However, the coupons were limited to use for a very dumbed down box.

The success of the program in assisting the consumer electronics industry can be seen in how well stores like Circuit City are doing. Not.

[onenote]

28. delete dupe

[JanusAscending]

17. You sound exactly like the repukes in the congress!!

That's why I turned off the channel before they voted!! I'll ask another question. You know this will be delayed again HOW? Wasn't it our new POTUS that wants to get broad band approved for everyone? What's your big hurry? Damn it man, let him do HIS job! I hope you never have need of some help from the Govt. that we all pay taxes to !!

[ferrous wheel]

26. broadband? What does that have to do with anything? Maybe you shouldn't smoke that stuff.

...

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

29. right... Obama only won because people wanted a DTV delay

yup, I know that is why I voted for him. I bet if you did an exit poll of every voter in America not a single one would have said their number one - or even number ten issue was a DTV delay.

I suspect there will be another delay because the same people who didn't do anything about it this time, still won't do anything about it. I know the PBS "This Old House" DTV commercial off by heart, they have been running it every hour for the last two and a half years! Just like every other channel. You have to live under a rock, be deaf and blind to have been caught off guard by this - in which case you probably don't need a TV.

And those who are too anything to pull it off now, will still be too whatever to pull it off in a few months.

[Robbien]

6. The air waves don't belong to the telecoms, they belong to us. We paid for them

What's this free shit you are screaming the public is whining about? We paid for the air waves for which the telecoms now want to charge us.

You crazily scream we the people are being stupid.

I say stupid is in the mirror for the one who is so blind.

[ipfilter]

7. These DTV threads bring out some strange posts.

It's starting to remind me of Y2K.

[ferrous wheel]

13. It looks like some people think the gubmint should buy every citizen a teevee.

keerist...
:eyes:

[EOTE]

9. What TVs don't have an input for a converter box?

Every converter box I've seen has RF outputs. And I've never seen a TV that doesn't have RF inputs. And if you have an ancient TV with the screw type inputs, that just requires a simple 99 cent adapter from Radioshack to get it working with the RF output of your converter box.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

10. Very old ones and very small ones

I am mostly kidding - but it wouldn't suprise me if it was the next anti-DTV strawman.

[onenote]

18. I'll bet you any amount you want that it won't be the next "anti-DTV" strawman

In fact, I'll bet you any amount you want that there will be no further extensions.

You game?

[onenote]

12. there are two reasons for the extension

First, the coupon program ran aground. It is budgeted for 33 million coupons. After a little more than 20 million were redeemed, the program essentially was unable to issue new coupons. Starting in early January -- five weeks before the scheduled transition -- consumers acting in reliance on a government mandated ad campaign relating to the coupons were put on a waiting list with little or no chance that they'd get a coupon and be able to redeem it before the deadline. Not their fault. Fault of a badly designed program. There are, at last report, requests pending for 3.2 million coupons. The coupons expired after 90 days, so a lot of people with coupons may well not have needed them, but that's keeping people who do need them from getting them.

The second reason is that the government knows, based on the transition trial that it ran in September in Wilmington NC, that between 1 and 2 million people (out of 100 million tv households) will call for information or assistance in the first 48 hours after the transition. The government undertook to set up and publicize call centers to help people. And then, in a classic example of repub incompetence, the bush chairman of the fcc did nothing to award the contracts for running and staffing the call centers until the first week of January. As a result, the call centers will not be adequately coordinated, staffed, trained etc by Feb 17.

Its a crappy situation. If you do nothing, you are condoning repub incompetence (and failing to make any effort to address that incompetence). If you extend, you almost certainly cause additional confusion and potentially cost broadcasters a lot of money (since its expensive to run analog and digital transmitters simultaneously). The good news for the broadcasters is that if they want to, most of them probably could go ahead and stop their analog transmissions on Feb 17 anyway. The bad news is that if they do so, people are going to be even more confused.

[ferrous wheel]

15. The thing is, half of the people who got the coupons NEVER NEEDED THEM

We are Dish Network and Directv installers and find people every day who wanted the free shit but had no need for them.
There are millions of these boxes sitting around that won't ever be used.

[onenote]

21. I suspect that most people who got coupons but didn't need them didn't redeemd them

47 million coupons have been mailed. 21 million coupons have now been redeemed; over 14 million simply expired. And around 11 million coupons are unexpired and unredeemed.

[ferrous wheel]

25. Great. So there are unused boxes AND unused coupons cluttering up the coffee tables of

America.
And the neoluddites keep bitching.

[S n o w b a l l]

50. Yes, and it was supposed to be one coupon/household

But, people being the greedy creatures they are, took advantage of the program getting more than one and as said above, not even needing them because they were getting something for free and a chance to put an extra $30-$50 bucks in their pocket. People suck.

Part of the reason for the delay is so these coupons coming up on the expiration date can be reissued. They should have put the expiration date 6 months before the transition.

[onenote]

52. says who? It was always two per household

The only limitation was that, for the first $900 million in coupons, people who had some sets connected to cable or satellite and some that relied on over the air reception were eligible. For the last $500 million (I'm rounding) only applicants that certified that all of their televisions relied on over the air reception are supposed to be eligible.

Of course, the way the program was structured, its not clear how this distinction was ever supposed to be enforced.

And, by the way, how does getting a coupon for $40 off something that costs at least $40 and more often $50 or $60 put $30-$50 in your pocket? Are you suggesting people were getting extra coupons and then selling them? I've not seen any indication of that happening. Have a link?

What happened is that a lot of people didn't understand whether they needed coupons or not so they applied. Then they figured out they didn't need them. Or in other instances, they got them at the beginning of the program, when it was relatively hard to find boxes and they waited, not realizing that they'd expire (although they should've realized it).

Greed? Not really. Confusion. Not paying attention? Pretty much.

[S n o w b a l l]

57. I worked for a major broadcast network until I got laid off last week...

I subscribed to Media Post, a distributor of online trade magazines and tried to keep up to date from that & what our station was telling us. I did read it was one/household, but I'll take your word for it.

Yes, I am suggesting people are getting the coupons and selling them. Why does that surprise you? Just look here and you can see for yourself. And the boxes retail from $30 and up which is why I said $30-50.

http://shop.ebay.com/items/_W0QQ_nkwZdtvQ20converterQ20boxQQ_armrsZ1QQ_fromZR40QQ_mdoZ

I'm sure all the reasons you stated are correct...along with a bit of greed.

I honestly don't care one way or the other since I'm no longer working for the station. But, the increased costs to have to run analog & digital for another 6 months probably was factored in to my layoff. All this for 5.6% of the country that's not ready for the transition....when they've had plenty of time to prepare.

We were required by the FCC to run a certain # of spots/day announcing the transition...to the point of us getting call in complaints about their intrusion. We've also had to field calls from those that WERE ready complaining that we hadn't made the switch yet. You can't please everyone, but considering there is only about 5% of the country not ready for DTV, the delay is not a smart decision and will be costing millions of dollars to stations. And more people, like me, will get laid off.

[onenote]

60. sorry about your're getting laid off.

I work in broadcast/cable myself and there is a lot of belt tightening and fear out there. No question that it sucks and I hope you can find something soon.

While the situation is far from clear, a great many stations are taking the position that they can and will terminate their analog broadcasts on Feb 17, notwithstanding that, with the extension, they are not required to.

I still don't think folks are selling coupons. While a couple have snuck by on ebay, it is ebay policy not to allow dtv coupons to be sold on their site. What may be happening, however, is people getting the coupons, using them to buy a box for a net price of somewhere between nothing and 20 bucks and then turning around and selling the box on ebay for 30-50 bucks. The folks buying these boxes for more than $20 bucks either don't understand the coupon program, have more than two sets that need boxes (unlikely), or may have had coupons that expired before they bought a box. In any event, it probably did contribute somewhat to the problem (but with 3 million coupon requests on hold, the number of coupon-purchased boxes sold on sites like ebay are probably a drop in the bucket.

Again, depending on what the FCC says in the next day or two, it may turn out that a lot of stations will be able to go ahead and switch off analog on the 17th. They may risk losing access to a small portion of their audience, but the savings in electrical costs alone may make it worth it.

[TahitiNut]

53. Many who obtained the discount cards didn't have a nearby place to redeem them in the time given.

When they expired before the consumer could obtain a reputable (preferred) converter box, it indicates that the left hand didn't coordinate with the right hand. Maybe deliberate? Who knows? Clearly, at one point there were far more 'coupons' issued than decent converter boxes available in some regions. That's to be expected, of course, since manufacture and distribution of converter boxes wasn't tied to the issuance of the 'coupons' -- and why would it?

I personally think it was DAMNED FUCKING STUPID to have them expire in such a short time. Predatory.

:shrug:

[ferrous wheel]

55. They were all good for 3 months. That is plenty of time for anybody with a modicum of

motivation to find a Walmart or Radio shack or any of a hundred kinds of store not to mention ten thousand online. Predatory? on whose part?...certainly not gov't or the retailers. I agree the whole program was a debacle, should never have been started.
Why not send out coupons for people who want XM radio? Or Espresso machines? I know, let's petition the gubmint for coupons good for a new car of our choice!

[spin]

14. Well maybe the government could buy us all...

new TVs. That should stimulate the economy. (':sarcasm:')

[WI_DEM]

20. part of the problem is that they ran out of the coupons, so I say fine--wait until June.

[Rosco T.]

58. And what about the people with TV's that don't have inputs for a converter box?

You know little about the converter boxes I see... they all come with an RF OUT.. so if you don't have an ANTENNA IN on your TV.. you don't see nothing at all now.

[RandySF]

2. It's nice to see Congress act so urgently on television.

[FiveGoodMen]

4. Kind of suggests that they're afraid of what would happen w/o TV to keep us in line, huh?

[onenote]

23. yeah. Nobody relies on tv for weather and emergency information. Fuck em.

Everyone should be forced to have cable or satellite. FOrced. At gunpoint if need be.

Yep. That's the ticket.

[FiveGoodMen]

24. Gunpoint?

Some drugs are good, but you should lay off whatever your taking.

You post wasn't responsive.

[onenote]

31. My post was sarcasm. Didn't think I needed a smilie. Guess I was wrong.

And my post was responsive (through sarcasm) to suggestions that the government does not have a legitimate interest in ensuring that its citizens do not lose access to over the air broadcast television.

I take it you're a supporter of the extension. In case you hadn't figured it out from my posts, I am as well.

[FiveGoodMen]

37. Very sorry. Didn't get it.

As to the extension ...

Well, I'm fine with it.

Whether we needed to sell off the bandwidth in the first place, I don't know. I suspect someone got paid off for that.

Either way, if it's going to happen, then I don't care all that much when.

------------

What I was trying to say was that all the breathless PSAs about being ready for the conversion -- which started long before Obama took office -- seem a little out of character for our government.

Change in the tax laws? If you didn't know and didn't hire a good CPA, then the penalties are your problem.

Change in traffic laws? They might get announced once or twice, but if you didn't hear them you still get the ticket.

Change in TV? Get ready get ready get ready get ready .... why wouldn't they just put the info out there and then let those who missed it buy their converter boxes later?

I read somewhere that before Poland's totalitarian government fell, people would take walks during the news hour just to silently prove that they weren't fooled and weren't watching.

That story came back to me as I've seen all these messages about the digital transition. In this case, everyone wants to make sure that we don't go without TV for a single minute.

[onenote]

39. because television is a lilfe line service for millions of people

You and I use the internet for information, including information on late breaking events. For millions of americans, that service is provided by over the air television. It has been fundamental government policy, since the dawn of radio, to support and promote over the air broadcasting (first radio, later television). Maybe that's no longer a justifiable policy (my view). But the reality is that transitioning the public from the system of free television broadcasting that's been in place for more than 60 years to one where video programming is provided over the internet, or cable, or satellite, on a subscription basis, isn't something that can or should be done through the backdoor in a way that leaves millions of Americans -- particularly the elderly, lower income, and minority Americans that Democrats historically have looked out for -- without access to at least a modicum of the programming readily available to those with greater resources and/or technical savvy.

[FiveGoodMen]

40. That's a good argument for the delay and/or a generous view of the motivations involved

It brings back the question: why do we need to shut down the analog broadcast channels at all?

[onenote]

42. because the use of the spectrum by broadcasting was inefficient

Different parts of the radio spectrum have different characteristics. The bands on which television broadcasts are made are extremely well suited (due to propagation characteristics and the like) for wireless communications services, inclduing those used by first responders as well as new, innovative wireless communciations services. The broadcasters can generally operate just as well on different parts of the airwaves that are not as well suite for these types of wireless communications. So the question was how to shift the broadcasters off of spectrum better suited for other uses and onto spectrum that works for broadcasting. The transition was the avenue.

I should add that the desire of the broadcast industry to upgrade the quality of their service with HD and multicasts (which involves using digital transmission technology) was also an critical factor. If broadcasters simply flash cut from analog to digital most people wouldn't be ready. They needed to simulcast in digital and analog so that there would be a motivating factor, such as high definition, for people to switch on their own, thereby reducing the number of people who would lose service when the the transition occurred.

[JanusAscending]

5. Yay!!! Thank God!!

I was watching the debate earlier, before the vote, and the repukes were making me so sick, I had to change the channel !:bounce:

[ferrous wheel]

11. Hell, why not just kill it altogether. We Murkin neoluddites don't need no fucking technological

advances.
:grr:

[skeewee08]

19. Is it me or does Heath Shuler vote nay on everthing?

[guitar man]

33. damn

I was hoping we could shut 'em down on the 17th :(

Is there any mention of funding for TV stations to keep operating the analog transmitters? I know we weren't budgeted for the extension, probably going to mean some layoffs at least to keep operating :(

[onenote]

35. I don't believe so. But I think any station that wants to shut down on the 17th can do so

Hundreds of stations have already given cable systems on which they are carried notice that they still intend to terminate analog and go all digital on the 17th. The FCC seems to be willing to go along with this, although the situation is not without some ambiguity. However, the fact that the FCC has indicated that a station that has a different "pre transition" digital channel than its post-digital transition channel can switch to digital only on its pre-digital channel and then switch again to its post digital channel on June 12 would seem to be an encouraging sign for broadcasters that are looking for some flexibility.

Of course, this could all change tomorrow if the FCC goes off in a different direction than they seem to be heading.

[guitar man]

36. if it's true

if it's true that we can shut down on the 17th, that's not so bad. Last I heard, it would take an application and waiting/notification period to shut down. If anbody that wants to can shut down on the 17th, get ready, I predict you'll see at least 75% of the stations shut down overnight.

[onenote]

41. its a very confused situation.

With respect to the original Feb 17 deadline, stations could terminate analog before that date without FCC approval anytime during the 90 day window preceding Feb 17 (ie. between November 18 and Feb 16) if they gave a simple notice to the FCC and ran a spots 4x daily for a month telling viewers that the station was going to terminate prior to Feb 17 (and giving the specific date the station was terminating analog). So a station that gave the appropriate notice on Jan 12, could shut down next week. The issue is whether stations that didn't give any notice that they were going to shut down on Feb 17 because, after all, that was the date they were expected/required to shut down, now have to give notice to the FCC and viewers and wait until mid March (the beginning of the 90 day window preceding June 12) to shut down early or can they just take the position that the FCC and the public have been on constructive notice that every station that hadn't already done so was going to shut down its anlog on Feb 17 and therefore they can shut down on that date without doing anything else. If they decide not to shut down on that date, however, the earliest they could shut down is mid March and they'd have to go through a round of notice and ads in order to do so.

Like I said, its a very confusing situation.

[guitar man]

44. damn, that IS confusing

:crazy:

[crimsonblue]

43. They need to stop delaying the transition.

[onenote]

45. right and how many times do you think they've delayed it already?

I'll give you the answer: in reality, not once. They've actually shortened it.

Congress initially handed off responsibility for settnig the transition deadline to the FCC in 1996, and in early 1997 the FCC (which initially sought comment on a proposal to have the transition take 15 years),decided instead that the transition could be accomplished in ten years. But that was just a tentative conclusion -- the FCC said it would review and reconsider the deadline every two years. Before that first review even occurred, Congress stepped in and, as part of the Balanced Budget Act of 1997, decided to ratify the December 2006 deadline but with a major condition -- namely that the transition would not occur on that date for any markets in which fewer than 85 percent of the households had the capability of receiving digital signals. That "loophole" effectively extended the deadline to a date uncertain. In late 2005/early 2006, having come to the realization that the transition might never occur under the then-applicable standard, Congress bit the bullet and mandated a "hard date" --February 17, 2009. In so doing, Congress actually moved up the real deadline that it had adopted in 1997.

[crimsonblue]

46. Uh, you're wrong.

Thanks for using your own words to prove yourself as such, too. It makes my work much easier.

[onenote]

47. uhh.. and how am I wrong?

The only fixed date ever set was Dec 31 2006 but only for markets with 85 percent penetration of satellite/cable.

It was unclear when, if ever, that threshold would be met in many if not most markets, so, in order to prevent the transition from dragging on indefinitely, a hard date was set for Feb 17,2009.

Your turn.

[crimsonblue]

49. It was originally set for '98, but you're right there was no fixed date.

So it was pushed back to '02, again without a fixed date. Then it was pushed back to '06. Therefore, as the date for transition has been moved back, the transition has been delayed.

Thank you and goodnight. Be sure to tip your waiters and bar staff.

[onenote]

51. I'd love to see a link to the date being set for 1998. But you'll never provide me with one

because you can't.

The FCC didn't adopt standards for digital broadcasting (the ATSC standard, replacing the NTSC standard for analog) until December 1996. FCC Fourth Report and Order In the Matter of Advanced Television Systems and Their Impact on Existing Television Service, MM Docket No. 87-268, FCC 96-493, released December 27, 1996.

And the FCC didn't award licenses for the use of a second channel by existing broadcasters to begin transmitting a digital signal (along side their analog channel) until April 1997. FCC Fifth Report and Order In the Matter of Advanced Television Systems and Their Impact on Existing Television Service, MM Docket No. 87-268, FCC 97-116, released April 21, 1997.

Yet, you seem to think that there was some deadline set for everyone to stop receiving analog stations eighteen months later? That's bizarrely wrong.

I can only guess that you are confusing the deadline for broadcasters to begin broadcasting in digital, which was moved around, with the deadline for broadcaster to stop broadcasting analog, which never, ever, was set for 1998 or 2002 or, in any realistic way, for 2006.

Sorry. I've been dealing with this issue since the very beginning (back before anyone was talking about digital television and it was thought that "advanced television" would be provided via analog transmissions) and you simply are mistaken.

[Rosco T.]

59. They started building TV w/digital ATSC tuners in 1998 n/m

[onenote]

61. and that has nothing to do with the date on which analog broadcasting was to end

and the spectrum was to be turned back in by the broadcasters using it.

As I pointed out above, some people seem to be confusing the date the FCC set for broadcasters to START digital broadcasts with the date Congress set for ending analog broadcasts.

[shadowknows69]

48. Glad we're getting right down to the important things

Can I go sign up for my affordable congressional health care plan yet? Before I die I mean?

[Uzybone]

54. Oh well

I wanted it done on 2/17 but bush really screwed up the voucher program (vouchers expired even before the switch, how dumb). No more delays though. Please.

[spanone]

56. my local nbc affiliate just said they are going with it as originally planned....

[onenote]

62. That appears to be the course that will be taken by quite a few broadcasters

Hundreds, actually. Unless the FCC indicates that they can't, which I doubt very much will happen.

[ShadowLiberal]

63. What's really absurd is the senate passed this unanimously both times

Just what exactly do the republicans think they have to gain by coming out in masses against delaying the conversion of DTV, a bill about as nonpartisan as it gets. It only helps label the house republicans as obstructionists if democrats can name long lists of seemingly nonpartisan things to average Americans and the senate that house republicans tried to kill.