No real peace supporters here this morning? Well then how bout this.

[lonestarnot]

We pull all of the troops out of Iraq. Every last one TODAY. We move them all to Afganistan, where they should all be in the first place. All the warmongers should be happy. They have a war to fight and can pretend they are looking for Bin Laden. We are still in the Middle East while so we can ponder further military bases and our next preemptive strike for oil, and we're close enough to Iraq to voyeer the Iraq Civil War so all of the blood thirsty can be sure to get their money's worth.

[dkofos]

1. Will *ush cronies still get their welll deserved $100B??

If so, I'm in.

:sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm:

[lonestarnot]

2. Oh sure and the war profiteers will still be allowed their take on the profit.

[dkofos]

7. A real win win.

Did we give them enough??

[Monkeyman]

3. I do not know about no Peace Supporters here

I am VVAW Peace and Justice for the last 40 years.

[lonestarnot]

4. Good morning Monkeyman.

I didn't know you were here. I wish we had a view who's here feature.

[Monkeyman]

27. Morning hey you can download our message to the 110th Congress

We gave them their Warranty and Certificate on the War in Iraq pass it out to all

[MuseRider]

31. Those are

great. Thank you for all you do.

[lonestarnot]

45. Thanks Monkeyman!

[n2doc]

5. And we could offer to move Bushco to their own private island

Where the only "news" they would get would be articles and TV shows discussing how wonderful it all turned out and how Shrub went down in history as the greatest prez ever!

Unfortunately, they already live on Fantasy island, it is called Washington .

[lonestarnot]

6. We promise to build the Bushitler liabrary there for them too.

[lonestarnot]

8. We could throw in a brand new special ops suit for bushitler.

[Liberal Veteran]

9. Um...what?

Nearly all Du'ers are peace supporters.

[lonestarnot]

10. No they are not. I have seen many here criticizing Dennis for

advocating peace now.

[Liberal Veteran]

11. Oh. So this is one of those "more ____ than thou" threads.

Carry on, I'll not waste my time in one of those.

[lonestarnot]

14. Alrightie then.

:patriot:

[Greyhound]

12. Yeah, but it's just a few of the "yea team" cheerleaders trying to excuse

the obviously inexcusable. Not really too many of them (four by my count).

[lonestarnot]

13. Only four?

[Greyhound]

32. Well that's just what I've seen today, I didn't really look into it, as I really

don't care about them nearly as much as I care about the people in Iraq, both ours and theirs.

[proud2BlibKansan]

43. I think many here want to pretend they support peace

But when they come out in support of the bill Congress passed Friday, they aren't acting like peace supporters.

[Liberal Veteran]

48. So...."my way or the highway"?

That seems counterproductive.

[proud2BlibKansan]

58. Peace means ending the war

Everyone here is free to believe what they want and to support the causes they want to support. But if you support peace, that means you don't support spending more money on war.

[Liberal Veteran]

64. A laudable goal to be sure....

....but as the saying goes, there's a simple answer to every complex problem....and it's usually dead wrong.

It was that kind of black and white thinking that got us into this mess to begin with.

Just to throw this question out there, how will you feel if we just pull out our troops completely right now and Iraq becomes another Darfur?

I'm not suggesting we stay, but will you feel any responsibility if within a month of leaving, the Shiites engage in a campaign of complete ethnic cleansing of Iraq?

[proud2BlibKansan]

68. I think that is inevitable regardless of what we do

At this point, we we can save the lives of our troops. We don't have any control over the Shiites nor will we ever.

[Liberal Veteran]

71. So it's not really a "peace" vs. "war" question as originally proposed.

It's more of a "get out" or "stay there" question.

I think that's part of what I didn't like about how the original question was framed. Everyone involved in this discussion admits that what we leave behind in Iraq will not be "peace", so there wasn't much point in trying to shame people as though some were more peace-seeking than others with regards to this mess.

Or put another way, the original statement that there were no real peace supporters on DU this morning was a red herring since neither staying nor leaving is a really so much about peace as just getting out sooner rather later or piecemeal.

[donsu]

15. I'm a peace supporter and I'm here every day

and I want all americans, military and otherwise, out of Iraq now. and the green zone emptied.


and I want us out of Afghanistan too.

[lonestarnot]

16. Likewise Donsu.

:hug:

[cali]

17. If wishes were horses, than beggars could ride.

What we want now, is not the same as what's possible now.

[lonestarnot]

18. I bet you don't know the front end from the hindend of a horse. Peace is possible NOW :>).

[cali]

22. Then enlighten me.

Tell me what should be done to end the war immediately. Just throwing a tantrum won't do it.

[lonestarnot]

24. I proposed moving all of the troops out of Iraq to Afganistan, where

the war arguably could justified. Leave it for all the world to see just what a fucking mess Bushitler has created. Osama-bin-not-lookin'-for-him's last known associatiations were there. We would still be strategically positioned in the Mid East for further conflicts with Iran, which are sure to come unless we pull our of Iraq. They are already working that angle (war with Iran) as you well know.

[cali]

28. What are you gonna do? Wave your little magic wand?

Of have you forgotten that the only solution to ending the war lies in the Congress, and as I've said, it's a diverse dem caucus.

[lonestarnot]

30. Diverse dem causas is simply an excuse to do nothing and I call bullshit!

[cali]

33. And I call

it stupid to utterly deny the reality within Congress.

[lonestarnot]

46. Reality smeality. The reality is they were elected to represent US!

[cali]

50. LOL! Inadvertently, I suspect, you just said it all.

"Reality smeality" That sums you up neatly. This has gotten way too boring.

Have a blessed day.

[lonestarnot]

53. I sadly concluded a couple of posts ago, that you were not interested in it.

Peace that is.

[proud2BlibKansan]

51. Well rather than accept legislation that supports the war,

I lobby against it. I called 2 congressman and 4 senators last week. I sent money to peace activists lobbying in DC. I dropped out of moveon.

And I dressed up and stood on a corner for an hour.



And I don't even own a magic wand!

Now other than educate us on DU about the intricacies of getting a bill passed in Congress, what did you do last week?

[Liberal Veteran]

67. I'm not certain that withdrawal and peace are synonymous.

The one thing I can be certain of is that our troops would stop dying in Iraq if we pulled out now, but I am not naive enough to believe that there would be peace in Iraq.

It might help to calm things down. It might just as easily become a massacre of biblical proportions when we leave.

There are no longer any simple answers to this problem thanks to the incompetent meddling of the Bush administration in Iraq.

What you are really saying is you want our troops out right now. But if you believe that will create instant peace in Iraq, you are kidding only yourself.

[peace13]

19. I'm all about peace.

I'm about getting out on the streets, calling every Senator when an issue is on the table. I am about talking to reporters even though you never know quite how the article will turn out. I hear what you are saying and I am with you. Iraq is a killing machine that is in no ones best interest. It strikes at my heart daily, the death that occurs in my name. Peace on earth, Kim

[noamnety]

20. Can you explain why Afghanistan is substantially different than Iraq?

I strongly recommend watching "Fear of Spring" on current TV:
http://www.current.tv/pods/news/PD05657?country=us

(Incidentally, the producer, Mitch Koss, is the son of one of our local Veterans for Peace members).

[lonestarnot]

21. It is subtantially different in that the Taliban, who instigated 9/11 have

remnants left there. It is where the war should have been "finished," not in Iraq. It is where Osama-bin-not-look'n-for-him last associations were known to have been. That is where the energies and funds fighting the war in Iraq should have arguably gone.

[cali]

23. Wrong. The Taliban did NOT instigate 9/11. n/t

[lonestarnot]

25. And you are blaming that on whom, Saudi's?

[cali]

26. No. I'm not. I'm simply stating that the Taliban did not

instigate 9/11. Do some reading. Google it. Inform yourself.

[lonestarnot]

29. Osama-not-been-look'n-for-him

is Saudi, and proported to have been the 9/11 attacks, and also Taliban. What have I missed?

[donsu]

9/11 was an inside job

face it

[noamnety]

52. Inside job, taliban, bin laden, whatever, 911's not relevant

I'm asking what is the difference between the daily missions, challenges, and accomplishments of units in Iraq vs. units in Afghanistan?

Who are we fighting, who is the enemy, what is the goal?

If we're fighting a war, and you can't tell me what the GOAL is, don't tell me we need to send more troops there.

[proud2BlibKansan]

54. Oh really?

Who was it then?

[LynnTheDem]

34. The Taliban in fact had NOTHING to do with 911.

Oy.

[lonestarnot]

35. Oy.

All Saudis. Not.

[LynnTheDem]

37. FACT; the Taliban had nothing to do with 911.

Like it or not, that is a fact.

No, it wasn't all Saudis; there were Egyptians and Pakistanis involved as well.

But there were no Taliban involved.

[lonestarnot]

38. What about Osama-not-bin-looking-for-him?

[LynnTheDem]

39. OBL is not, never was, Taliban.

The Taliban had nothing to do with 911.
That's a FACT.

[lonestarnot]

49. I've seen the 9/11 doc.

So are you in agreement that the entire 9/11 atrocity was an inside job, or just where are you placing blame for 9/11? Who in your research do you place blame with, inside or outside this country or both, and who is primarily responsible?

[LynnTheDem]

62. FACT; the Taliban had nothing to do with 911.

You do care about facts, yes?

[lonestarnot]

63. Yes facts.

Give me some.

[LynnTheDem]

66. Here's one for ya;

The Taliban had nothing whatsoever to do with 911.

[lonestarnot]

36. All an inside job...

Well there is that argument.

[noamnety]

40. That's not answering my question, really

Who are we fighting?
What progress are we making?
Has the country deteriorated?
Do our military actions have any relationship to political goals?
Do we even know what the political goals ARE at this point?
Have the living conditions gone up or down as a result of us being there?
If more and more people are living as refugees, 9 people living in a 10x10 foot roofless shelter with no water or electricity, are we winning their hearts and minds?

We have all those people in Afghanistan - it's nice to say "ah, well, they are looking for bin laden" - but they aren't actually there doing a man hunt at this point, are they? They aren't exactly combing the hillside looking for a lost boyscout.

So what are we doing there?

What we're "accomplishing" over there has no more relation to 911 than anything that's happening in Iraq, other than a vague "well, they started it" hand wave.

[lonestarnot]

42. Hand wave is better than mortars.

:hi:

[noamnety]

47. I don't understand your point at all, sorry

I'm assuming you think the war in Iraq isn't accomplishing anything at this point, right?

Let's say Saddam HAD been involved in 911, for the sake of a hypothetical. Okay, now he's been removed from power, he's gone. So would you would then think things in Iraq are going well and we should "stay the course"?

[lonestarnot]

59. I never even intimated that Saddam was involved in 9/11 and I can't even

think of it, not even in a hypothetical. LOL

[noamnety]

69. I'm not suggesting that you implied it OR that it happened

I'm asking this:

If an individual from Iraq HAD committed an act of terrorism against the US 5 years ago (which we both fully agree they didn't), and that person/group of people was no longer in power, would that make what we are doing in Iraq productive and ethical now - 5 years later?

the obvious parallel being:

If an individual from Afghanistan committed an act of terrorism against the US 5 years ago, and that person/group of people was no longer in power, would that make what we are doing in Afghanistan productive and ethical now - 5 years later?

[hfojvt]

56. I would like to know

why you expect serious dialogue with somebody who posted the silly 'I'm gonna create some strawmen and labels to bash people who disagree with me' OP. Criticism of the war in Afghanistan is a valid position, but you would be better served with an OP of your own to get the message out.

[noamnety]

70. My last OP didn't go so well.

I suggested pink feather boas weren't necessarily any worse than dockers, and that was interpreted as advocating "a violent revolution." :)

[proud2BlibKansan]

41. Works for me!!

But then you probably knew that already. :hi:

[lonestarnot]

44. LOL

:hi:

[proud2BlibKansan]

61. Guess what we are doing today?

Wish you were here to join us.

[lonestarnot]

65. Great picture.

:applause:

[leftofthedial]

55. what will they do in Afghanistan?

the 9-11 scapegoats are in Pakistan now.


:shrug:


I agree with immediate withdrawal from Iraq, but they should come home.

[lonestarnot]

57. Draw down forces in Iraq for preparation to come home.

[Sparkly]

60. I'm not sure that would establish peace in either country, but no matter.

Unfortunately, we don't get to make the decisions.