A Family Business Is A 24/7 Job That Goes BEYOND Wages. DU'ers Who Support Inheritance Taxes

[KittyWampus]

that would force small family businesses to break up are as clueless as Republicans.

It is literally impossible for my family business to pay me enough wages for all the work and sweat equity put into this place over my entire life.

That doesn't even count the missed prom and curtailed nightlife due to responsibilities.

This place makes enough money to cover expenses. Any profits are spent on capital improvements to the property to keep the balance sheet close to zero so we aren't hit with taxes.

Anyone who thinks I haven't earned the right to inherit my family's business without paying ruinous taxes are out of touch with the reality of small business.

And a big part of the problem is that real estate values have risen to outlandish heights here on the east coast. Prices may level off but where we are, they won't ever drop.

No wonder third generation businesses are so rare. We get grief from the Right AND Left.

[rockymountaindem]

1. Is your business worth more than $4 million?

If not, then you've got nothing to fear.

[KittyWampus]

2. Yes, because of the real estate value. We are on the east coast in a resort area.

Used to be a lot of farms here too. They've mostly gone by the wayside.

[ShortnFiery]

10. Most small farms were/are well below 4 MILLION DOLLARS. Hell, the vast majority of small businesses

= 95% are below that Estate Taxation Increase amount. Perhaps you should move to a less expensive area?

[KittyWampus]

14. WTF again. We've been here for over 50 years. We are supposed to move? And property values

on ONE acre of land (with a house) here is about 3 million.

Hence the vanishing green space and small farms.

[ShortnFiery]

18. You probably would be best off consulting with people who can relate. With respect,

you're not going to find many here who have any idea about the heartaches that you embrace. I'm sorry for you but DAMN, most people are more concerned with their next paycheck NOT someone's travails in business.

[treestar]

116. Well they are supporting themselves (and their employees)

without needing a "job." Somebody has to own the business! :wtf:

Some people do lose their businesses due to taxes, upon the death of the original owners. Small employers employ most people. Why are these jobs so valueless?

Sometimes on DU it appears the only people who matter are the ones who work for the big corporations and get a paycheck and worry that they will get laid off. A business owner has much more worry about whether the next "paycheck" is going to be there! That's, whether the business will make enough to keep afloat. Most businesses are not huge with highly paid CEOs. And this on a monthly basis.

[tsuki]

170. Name one and back it up with a link. This BS has been peddled

by Jeff Sessions Taliban GOP for years.

[cabluedem]

175. I agree. Most people here have never been small family business owners. nt

[Runcible Spoon]

183. Jesus, I would cash out millions and restart the business somewhere else AND call myself LUCKY

Not too many ::nopity: from me.

[MajorChode]

56. Sympathy may be found in the dictionary between suicide and syphilis

Let's look at the facts here, if indeed your story is true.

At the very least, you will be inheriting assets over and above $4 million and you have no tax liability for <$4 million. So regardless you're not going to be hurting for wealth at the time of inheritance.

You admit in your own post that the business used capital gains tax advantages to avoid paying taxes.

Small businesses already receive numerous tax advantages not available to the rest of the working public.

So now you want to complain when the tax bill comes due?

Sorry, no sympathy here. Try somewhere else.

[KittyWampus]

62. Not hurting for wealth? I make a very small salary because we are a FAMILY BUSINESS.

So where exactly is this wealth supposed to come from?

And we pay plenty of taxes on employees, land, sales etc.

And if you've never owned a house or property, you have to replace roofs etc etc. so there is no profit.

[MajorChode]

83. You can't have it both ways

Either you have wealth or you don't. If you don't have wealth, you don't have to worry about inheritance tax, which is a tax on transferred wealth.

Lots of people weren't handed their livelihood by their parents and work their entire lives and have very little to show for it. I'll save my sympathy for them.

[acmavm]

107. Life is tough all over. You want to play you have to pay.

Hey, you're still getting your 'small' salary. Bet it's more than I'm making. And I'm being asked to 'voluntarily' take less. Don't come here for pity.

[Runcible Spoon]

184. Yeah we don't all have a multimillion dollar chunk of real estate to sell if times get tough

Jesus this place is like Bizarro World sometimes.

[newtothegame]

179. "If indeed your story is true."

Classic DU line, more concerned with hunting down trolls than using this site as an informative discussion board.

[MajorChode]

188. Classic DU line, more concerned with making silly assumptions

I was referring to whether or not the OP did actually have the net assets available to exceed the threshold for estate tax.

If I had suspected the OP was a troll, I wouldn't have replied at all.

[Two Americas]

95. I work in agriculture

The right wingers were spreading a lie about the "death tax" that it was causing families to lose their farms. When Farm Bureau - notoriously infiltrated by right wingers - started spreading it, I was one of a group of people from the farming community who did an exhaustive study on this.

It is not happening.

What is happening is that the children and grandchildren want to grab the money, and so when the farmer dies they sell the farm to developers to make a killing. That is what destroys the small farms.

If the business cannot pay you a decent wage, then it is hard for me to see how much wealth can be accumulating. If the proceeds from the business are being plowed into real estate or other investments, then that is not really the business we are talking about. No one builds up equity in real estate the way that farmers do. That does not prevent any offspring of farmers from farming should they want to do that. If they want to cash in on the other hand, they face taxes, yes.

If the property is really the issue, have your folks sign it over to you now.

If you want to play the game you are describing, the business should incorporate and you should negotiate yourself a fancy stock deal. If your employers - family or not - will not negotiate with you on that, you may want to move on. But again, that is not the "family business" that is KittyWampusco International Inc., hoping to grab the brass ring.

On edit - greedy and dishonest relatives are the greatest threat to your inheritance, not the government.

Also, I work with hundreds of farms that are 3rd, 4th, and 5th generation. I have talked to thousands of farmers over the decades, and I know of no kids who wanted to take over their parent's farm and could not because of the "death tax." Once in a while I hear someone claim that, but it never pans out. They had a lot of other problems, usually family problems.

[elizfeelinggreat]

108. great post

thank you for explaining what often happens

[KittyWampus]

141. You can't just 'sign over' property. It is a gift and taxes must be paid. And I could link you to

various recent new articles on the prices jumps in Iowa, for instance. Land values there have doubled and more with ethanol.

And you must not understand that just because the land under your feet rises in value doesn't mean you are wealthy.

There are few small farms at all left out here. And what happens is lots are sold off to real estate developers and less and less is left as generations go on.

And if you do really work with hundreds and hundreds of small farms and businesses where kids didn't have to go through trusts or selling off assets to pay inheritance taxes then you must live in a place where property isn't worth much.

[Two Americas]

163. there are always trade offs

I well understand the challenges faced by farmers, thanks.

[bvar22]

186. The Estate Tax is the most fair and American of all taxes.

"Starting in the spring of 2001, a number of investigative reports began to question the veracity of these claims. They found that stories of farmers losing the farm to the estate tax are so rare that experts and investigators have been unable to find any real examples. Neil Harl, an Iowa State University economist whose tax advice has made him a household name among Midwest farmers, said he searched far and wide but never found a case in which a farm was lost because of estate taxes. "It's a myth," said Mr. Harl, "M-Y-T-H."

The New York Times reported that when the pro-repeal American Farm Bureau Foundation was challenged to produce one real case of a farm that was lost because of the estate tax, it could not cite a single example. In April 2001, the Bureau's president sent an urgent memo to its affiliates stating, "it is crucial for us to be able to provide Congress with examples of farmers and ranchers who have lost farms... due to the death tax." Still, no examples were forthcoming."

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Economics/DeathTax_Deception.html

Your family has built a small fortune.
I wish I had your problems.

[TornadoTN]

144. Very, very true - The Myth of the Death Tax kills farms

I own agricultural land that we do organic farming on - mostly cattle and corn, some veggies on a smaller scale. We bought the property from a man & woman in their 70's who couldn't maintain it anymore but didn't want it to go to developers. As soon as we started looking for insurance and other things that we needed (as we are first time "Farmers" that do it on the side mainly) we started getting hit up by Farm Bureau about the "Death Tax" and how we needed to split it up and sell portions of it to help offset the tax. Then the never-ending stream of developers begging to buy and then turning into the scare mongering about getting taxed and how we will never be profitable, blah blah blah.

I'm 29, my wife is a little older than me, and we are now in our 5th year of running this farm as a "hobby". It's very rewarding and we're finally turning a profit on what we do - and that's mainly selling to co-ops and organic markets & associated businesses. We'll pass this down to our kids with clear intent that its to be kept in the family. Besides, anything under 4 million isn't taxed - so anything over that is fair game and we'll plan for that accordingly. People just want something for nothing and the corporate mindset just feeds into this paranoia - and that's coming from someone who is executive management in my "other job".\


The Simple Answer: People don't take their time and examine their options.

The Solution: Hire a competent attorney and accountant to help prepare for the estate tax. In most cases, it can be offset almost completely depending on the classification of the assets.

[RB TexLa]

17. Inheritance tax is based on best use. If you have a dairy farm that is on land someone says

would be worth $14M for new development then it's worth $14M in the eyes of the government.

[rockymountaindem]

32. Well there's something I didn't know

Thanks for the tip.

[lumberjack_jeff]

129. As it should be.

Any farmer is welcome to commit to farming in perpetuity, all they have to do is sell their development rights to the government.

http://news.ucanr.org/newsstorymain.cfm?story=416

If they don't, one can only assume that they're holding out for the highest bidder. The farm is worth what it's worth, not what it's being used for.

[RB TexLa]

158. Well, I think the inheritance tax should be done away with but if best use should be used

why not use it for property tax appraisals?

[lumberjack_jeff]

189. Maybe it should. In my area, if Weyerhaeuser paid full price for their property taxes...

Schools would never go begging.

[sandnsea]

3. I suggest you need an attorney

to put the business into a family trust, sell it to you, or otherwise make arrangements so that you are an owner of the business as you should be.

[KittyWampus]

4. We do have a specialist. However, my opinion is that a trust simply shouldn't be necessary.

It's just not fair.

There's a difference between a small, family business and a large corporation.

[sandnsea]

7. Of course it should

That's what it's there for. There are plenty of ways to protect your family business. Use one.

[depakid]

9. Legal structuring is a requirement for any smart business (and family)

[Zomby Woof]

19. Life isn't fair

And being worried about missing the PROM kills your whiny arguments dead in the water.

Tough shit. Move or suck it up.

[KittyWampus]

25. I've spent the last 40+ years of my life helping keep this going. The prom was the very least of it

Maybe you've never been dedicated to anyone or anything for that long. Too bad.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

28. But it was important enough for you to mention it?

[KittyWampus]

31. Yes, it was one PERSONAL point along with untold hours and sweat put in for no pay.

Family businesses require more dedication than jobs you go to for a couple of hours and then go home.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

35. Yet out of your 40 years of involvement, it was still one of the things you chose to highlight.

A prom, for God's sake.

[KittyWampus]

37. you want a long list of all the personal things I've sacrificed and dealt with over the last 40+

years?

In the end, I think the fact you would focus on that and see it in a negative light says more about you than me.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

104. No, I just want to know why you focused on the prom.

If the business prevented you from doing so many things over 40 years, it seems a high-school dance wouldn't be that important.

[Seldona]

100. 40 years in business a 'prom.'

:crazy:

We really do need a clueless icon here.

[treestar]

117. The point was that it is a 24/7 responsibility

not just nine to five.

Which is why so few Americans do this, and why you find so many immigrants owning the shops. Most Americans feels entitled to a nine to five job with no responsibility for whether or not the business makes enough money to stay afloat. Hell, even the huge corporations have to make the money to cover the payroll. If they don't, they close (or get bailed out from the government, due to the fact that their closing would leave so many employees jobless).

Everyone is the same. "My job matters and should never disappear, who cares if your business fails and your employees end up jobless."

[newtothegame]

180. You're a sweetheart. Hugs and kisses ;)

[TahitiNut]

30. "a trust simply shouldn't be necessary"???

Oh ... so the mechanisms in place to address YOUR family's situation just aren't "right" somehow, huh? Instead, you want to moan about how "it ain't fair" while you IGNORE the provisions that make it so??

That's just fucking insane. Good grief!

[KittyWampus]

34. We aren't "ignoring" anything. We have a good estate lawyer. And the issue mentioned in the OP

are DU'ers who feel I shouldn't be able to inherit a family business because I've made some wages over the years.

That was pretty plainly said in the OP>

The wages I've made are NOTHING compared to all the actual hours, sweat and personal effort I've put into this place.

[TahitiNut]

46. Here's the point ...

You lament having an inheritance taxed -- even though estates under about $4 million AREN'T taxed.

You claim that it shouldn't be taxed because of the "sweat equity" (beyond mere wages) that you've put into it. Well, THAT'S the point of transferring equity, forming family trusts, and various other ways of MAKING LEGAL what you claim is "fair." There is no way that a properly managed estate in which family members have invested "sweat equity" would be jeopardized ... IF people behave in responsible ways. Tenants in common with rights of survivorship, private incorporation, family trust, equity interest increased over the years ... whatever ... just REALIZE (i.e. make legally REAL) that which you claim is "fair" and there ain't a problem.

It's entirely possible, I know, that what ONE member of a family thinks is "fair" isn't the same as what OTHER family members think is "fair" ... and it's better for family 'togetherness' to merely aim their ire and anger at the evil guvmint. Tough.

It's not family businesses and family farms that're the issue. It's estates of many millions that are composed of stock, bonds, and an array of assets that have not been assessed for capital gains ... even though capital appreciation has occurred. Lot's of heirs have NO SWEAT EQUITY whatsoever. George W. Bush, for example.

The idea that somehow YOUR blood sweat and tears are somehow being especially targeted is sheer nonsense. The nation is littered with people who've sweated and bled for little compensation - making others wealthy and then being fired and having their pensions plundered. LOTS OF PEOPLE WORK THEIR ASSES OFF and get nothing.

[KittyWampus]

48. We are worth over 4 million because real estate here has risen to insane heights.

And we are not the only small business in America that faces this fact.

Four million isn't that much when areas on the east and west coast find land going for millions per acre.

And this goes back to the point, DU'er hear "worth over 4 million" and think that means we are fucking millionaires. All it means is the ground under our feet is worth outrageous amounts to real estate developers. That is how we are assessed. We BARELY have enough to cover costs. We aren't sure we can afford to hire both employees this summer cause we don'tknow business is going to be like.

And MY point is, just because real estate values go up, shouldn't mean a small family business gets hammered on estate taxes.

Four million isn't enough.

[TahitiNut]

52. Yes, and that's called "capital appreciation" ... an untaxed capital gain.

When an estate is formed, it's valued at then-current market values ... the CAPITAL GAINS up to that point go untaxed. (Some might claim that's "unfair" to those who pay capital gains that heirs DON'T pay.)

Again ... for such situations where the family business is to be continued, the law provides many mechanisms for doing exactly that.

We have 19,000 homeless people in the city of Detroit that might LOVE to have such a "problem." (Hell... I'm not homeless and I'd probably love it, too.)

[MilesColtrane]

112. "... hear "worth over 4 million" and think that means we are fucking millionaires."

That's exactly what it means.

[EOTE]

128. Silly you.

You must be under the wacky impression that a millionaire is an individual whose net worth or wealth exceeds one million dollars. Well sure the liberal elite media might try to push that definition, but that's only so they can leech off the teets of those who may or may not have worked hard all their lives and only have 7 figures or more to show for it. 4 million is such a tiny sum nowadays. I mean, one can hardly make their nut with a measly $4 mil. If there's anything more distinctly American than a dynasty, I don't know what it is. Feed the rich!

[Runcible Spoon]

185. Congratulations you have won the thread!

:applause:

[treestar]

120. No inheritance tax would be easier than stuff that just provides

jobs for attorneys - that's one group (and their employees) who can remain unemployed for all anybody cares! :rofl:

Even though they can't outsource! A lawyer can't even move to another state without taking another exam and being re-qualified.

[Spider Jerusalem]

139. For taxable purposes an estate valued in excess of $3.5 million...

whether a business or other inheritance, is taxed at a rate of 45%. Please don't talk to me about 'not fair'. It is what it is. Either you make the legal steps necessary to place the business in trust or you pay the tax; it's that simple. Allowing exceptions for specific cases will only lead to abuse of potential loopholes by tax avoiders.

[TreasonousBastard]

5. Whoa! There are those clueless ones, but...

nobody actually in power to do something is talking about taxing small proprieterships out of business, are they?

(At least, not any more than they already are.)

[sandnsea]

8. Of course not n/t

[pnwmom]

11. Under the old tax limits ($600,000 estate tax exemption) the heirs of many

small businesses faced significant taxes, but I don't think anyone's talking about going back to exemptions that low .

[ShortnFiery]

6. Call me psychic, but I seriously doubt that you're going to get much empathy here ...

when most people worried about "the basics" of making the next rent/mortgage payment. :shrug:

[KittyWampus]

12. WTF? We manage to make ends meet and are HOPING we get enough business this summer

to hire back our employees and pay bills.

People who own a small business deserve what we get :wtf:

[ShortnFiery]

13. Your business is not small if it's over 4 MILLION DOLLARS. Perhaps you can work something

out with "the lawyers" but not many here are going to call that amount "A Small Business" when 95% + in the USA is below this amount.

[KittyWampus]

16. You realize that a business can exist on property that's value has risen to astronomical heights?

[ShortnFiery]

20. No, I think you should consider moving to a more

reasonable place. :shrug:

[KittyWampus]

27. You mean sell the business and move. And this place gets a couple of McMansions put on it.

Huge ugly new houses built for a bunch wealthy people who would use them only on weekends but don't join the ambulance squad or help out at the food pantry.

[ShortnFiery]

33. I can't believe this conversation ... Hey, good luck and good-bye.

:eyes:

[pnwmom]

134. Right. All small businesses in towns with escalating real estate values

should have to move out of town and be replaced by more what? Large corporations? Luxury housing?

[pnwmom]

132. The poster already explained that. One small inn in that location could account for

the value. So could a gas station. It's still a small business.

[Gormy Cuss]

21. If you OWN a large enough portion of the business you shouldn't have a sizable estate tax.

There are mechanisms to transfer some ownership to the next generation while the current owners are living. If family members are contributing without an appropriate cash compensation then they should get some equity stake now. That's how the estate tax becomes irrelevant to most larger family owned businesses. Holding all the assets until death and the estate tax will be relevant for the portion over the exempt limit.

[KittyWampus]

29. I was given X shares years ago. Now, the shares are worth huge amounts cause of real estate

value. I couldn't pay taxes if any more shares were given me.

And yes, there are mechanisms. We do have a good estate lawyer.

But IMO, "mechanisms" shouldn't be required for small businesses.

[xchrom]

15. there are legal loopholes and tax breaks

for someone in your position.

no one to see you lose your business -- we all lose when that happens.

[peace13]

22. What I want to say is...

cry me a river, but that would not be very zen of me. Explore available options soon. We all invest in legal services from time to time.

[Kittycat]

23. Transfer it to a trust, like the McCain's have done.

You could also make it a full corp, and not a sole prop.

[Maru Kitteh]

24. Hell yes. It's why I quit my business. You are NEVER off work and keeping all those balls in the air

will rob you of your very life.

I don't believe in taxing the money of a dead person who's already paid a gazillion taxes on that money to begin with.

Whatever I manage to check out of this world with should be left where and to I designate without interference. Period.

[Hello_Kitty]

38. In many cases, they haven't paid very much tax at all.

Capital gains are taxed at a much lower rate than wages and if the investments are in tax-deferred accounts (qualified IRAs, 401ks) then they haven't paid any.

[KittyWampus]

39. There's a stack of tax forms from State and Federal. For the business, our employees.

We pay taxes. Lots of them.

[Hello_Kitty]

42. I was addressing the poster I responded to

Who made a categorical statement about how whatever she had should be left "wherever I designate without interference". Sorry, but if she's got a bunch of money in tax-deferred accounts, then by God they better be taxed at some point, either before or after she croaks.

[Maru Kitteh]

50. I'm touched that you are concerned about my affairs upoon my death.

But your argument is for shit.

Close the loopholes on taxes of the living and there will bee NO need to concern ourselves with the taxes of the dead.

Period.

[Hello_Kitty]

54. What loopholes are you talking about?

Capital gains are taxed at a maximum of 15%. Tax-deferred accounts are just that, tax deferred. You said that you wanted everything you own left to your heirs, untouched. I say you are high if you think that money you paid little or no tax on should just be passed on to your relatives. That's how plutocracies happen.

As for the real loopholes, most of them exist (ostensibly) to help businesses stay afloat. Take them away and people like the OP will be screaming about how the taxes are putting them out of business.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

26. And where is this list of small businesses being broken up by the estate tax?

Surely it must be an epidemic judging by the tone of your post.

[KittyWampus]

40. Tell you what. Find an aerial photograph of eastern LI from the 1960's and compare it to today's

What used to be farm land is almost nothing but summer homes.

And a lot of those people weren't just people cashing in on the rise in the real estate value.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

103. And this answers my question how, exactly?

Where is your proof of these small businesses being driven into the ground by the inheritance tax?

[TornadoTN]

148. Here in Tennessee, the decline in agricultural land is attributable to the rise in property value

Developers we literally driving all of the area with a big briefcase full of money and a contract, chomping at the bit to find some land and buy it. People took them up on the offer and cashed in - later regretting it when the townhouses and other developments started popping up.

Now they mostly sit empty, with that land all but gone.

My advice is to get yourself a tax lawyer to look at your situation. Our investments are worth more than the $4mil threshold and we've got plenty of time to offset the estate tax when that time comes. A competent attorney can examine your situation and make sure that your family is in the position to handle the estate tax when the time comes - without losing the business or selling off assets.

[hfojvt]

191. small farms have been going out of business since the 1970s

That's because of corporate farming, not inheritance taxes.

[treestar]

122. this has been the case for decades

by the time the taxes are paid, the business no longer exists.

[Greyhound]

36. To DU. "I've got mine, fuck you!" n/t

[billyoc]

41. 24/7, missed proms, curtailed nightlife?

It is my fervent hope that this exploitative enterprise be driven out of business, the sooner the better, before another generation has to suffer under its yoke. It sounds much worse than working at Wal-Mart.

[Hello_Kitty]

43. Seriously, I wonder how many Walmart employees enjoy a lively night life. eom

[KittyWampus]

51. I wonder if you've ever dedicated yourself to anyone or sacrificed for anything in your life.

pathetic.

[Marr]

61. I wonder if you've ever had absolutely nothing.

I expect not.

It sounds to me like you've always had the family business. You do realize that a lot, possibly even most, people have nothing beyond their immediate pay check? For you, the worst case scenario is a tax nightmare than requires you to cash out and change careers. For many, the worst case scenario is not having anything to eat tomorrow, nowhere to sleep next week.

I'm a small business owner myself, and I know very well what goes into building and maintaining a business. It's a lot of work. But before you break your arm patting yourself on the back, you might want to stop and consider that you've done this work for a reason. It was, I assume, better than the alternative (ie, other peoples' only option).

[KittyWampus]

65. I lived hand to mouth working 3 jobs before moving back to the family business

During that time I had to pay for an operation and a wrecked pick up truck.

So there goes that assumption. Well, okay. I didn't have nothing but for a part of my life it was working non-stop.

And besides paying taxes to help those who need it, there's the hours put in at the food pantry and helping neighbors out.

[Marr]

76. Hey, that's fine-- and I do hope your tax issues are worked out.

These real estate prices have got to murdering people.

[KittyWampus]

45. Once more, it says more about you than me that you'd seize on that and miss the pointu'

Some people must not have ever dedicated themselves to anything other than their own selfish existance.

[billyoc]

49. Indeed. I spend most of my time protecting workers from businesses like that.

[KittyWampus]

53. Businesses like what? Guess what, I'm the one who reached my neighbor when his furnace busted

and his house was billowing out gray smoke. He's only out on weekends. Saved his house from burning down. We're the ones who called the police about the house next door where the water was running outside due to a frozen pipe. They aren't here except during the summer.

We are the ones who do our best to keep employees on the books long enough to get unemployment during the winter. That means paying them to work for about 1.5 months longer than we actually need them but do it anyway to help them out.

We are the ones help out at the food pantry. Donate stuff to the schools. It's families like us who join the ambulance squad and help sick neighbors who don't have families but have to deal with chemotherapy and cancer operations. We are the one who help get old lady's gardens weeded.

Businesses like what?

[pnwmom]

135. Some people here also don't understand that the Democratic party is large

enough to encompass those in poverty, the middle class, and even those who've done quite well financially. But no one's here unless they support progressive goals.

[treestar]

126. It does include the responsibility for whether the business survives

An employee of Wal-Mart or any other large corporation does not have to worry about whether the company makes enough money to go on, if it doesn't one month, it can absorb that better. Do your job and go home. Then if you get laid off you get to complain that it wasn't fair that Walmart laid you off, because huge companies must always succeed and have tons of money.

If it doesn't, the government should bail out walmart. Because the people who have jobs are better than the people who create them. You are entitled to a job, regardless of whether there is a market for it.

If when Sam Walton died, Walmart had to close, it would be unfair, so why isn't it unfair for the smaller businesses. Whose CEOs as such do not have huge bonuses.

[mike_c]

44. I'm sorry to hear that you've made such a poor career choice....

Do you want to leave it for your kids, too? It doesn't sound like it worked out all that well for you.

[KittyWampus]

47. Considering I love the area here and the people we meet and expenses are paid for-

why would it be a poor career choice?

[me b zola]

98. !

:rofl:

[Yavin4]

55. A Good Accountant Would Be Able To Get You Around The Inheritance Tax

There are probably several ways your family could easily avoid paying the inheritance tax.

I'm sorry. I have zero sympathy for your plight. None.

Not with millions of Americans, including myself, without a job or healthcare.

[TahitiNut]

57. Ditto.

"Poor little rich girl."

[KittyWampus]

59. If I am rich, where is my money? Why can't I go fly off on a vacation or drive a new car?

Are you really that ignorant you can't grasp that owning a small family business that exists on land that has risen in value DOESN'T MAKE YOU RICH?

Really?

Wow, DU'ers can really be like Republican assholes. Cause it seems like some intentionally ignore facts.

[Hello_Kitty]

64. So sell it.

Sounds like the business is more trouble than it's worth.

"Wow, DU'ers can really be like Republican assholes."

You're the one who's arguing for getting rid of the estate tax, and you're accusing other people of being like Republicans?

[KittyWampus]

69. Where exactly did I say get rid of inheritance taxes? I DID NO SUCH THING. But there's

a world of difference between taxing a Bill Gates and a small family business that exists on property that's risen in value to astronomical heights over the last 50 years.

[Hello_Kitty]

74. Your OP denounced "DUers who support inheritance taxes"

And if you want to make a comparison between yourself and Bill Gates (and god help me because I never thought in a million years I'd be defending HIM), it could be argued that Gates has done more, directly, to acquire his Microsoft fortune than you did to acquire yours. According to you, your net worth is mostly the result of the land on which your family business stands going up in value. I mean, you've made a big point of letting us know how your actual business is barely scraping by. Why should Bill Gates' estate have to pay more because he's done a better job of turning a profit than you have? :sarcasm:

[KittyWampus]

84. This place wouldn't exist without all the hours I've put in. Small family businesses depend

on the family working for not a lot. I make a small salary.

And my "net worth" doesn't mean squat unless we sell this place or mortgage it. My net worth is on paper. And that's a big part of the point. It exists on paper. Only. If this place is liquidated.

In which case, yet another bit of green land and an old house gets torn up and turned into luxury homes for the wealthy like Bill Gates.

And all that we contribute to the community is gone. That's includes food pantry, helping sick neighbors, volunteering garden work for older ladies. And house watching all the absent houses over the winter which we do as good citizens.

And yes, we have to use money earned each year to put on a new roof, replace plumbing or buy new mowers, for instance. Otherwise, this place would implode.

[TahitiNut]

72. So... the business is a failure EXCEPT for the value of the land -- which is HUGE.

God! Poor baby!

:sarcasm:

[Hello_Kitty]

78. Yep, and I hate to be cynical

But I have a nagging suspicion that the OP is hoping that the Estate Tax is permanently repealed so she can cash in when she inherits it.

[KittyWampus]

90. Again, I specifically referenced small businesses. And the fact you posted that leads me to realize

being obnoxious is all you've got to contribute.

By the way, from your rather sick posts, it sounds like you REALLY expect me to sell the place. Which should make you happy. Then there's the real estate taxes to be paid and the people that would be out of work etc.

[Hello_Kitty]

94. If you're that concerned about keeping your business going

You will do what needs to be done, legally, to ensure that it continues post-inheritance. Several people have already pointed out that you have a plethora of succession planning options, but you choose to whine that you shouldn't have to undertake them. Forgive me if that leads me to suspect that your motives are less than pure.

[PassingFair]

142. Don't worry, real estate values are bound to drop dramatically for you.

Within a year, you may lose HALF your value,
and then you won't have to worry about the
taxes!

Cheer up!

[lukasahero]

151. :) Ain't that the truth! eom

[KittyWampus]

58. LOL! In other words, fuck those who've worked hard their whole lives cause you're out of work.

Congratulations on being more like a Republican than you realize.

And we have a good estate lawyer. We shouldn't HAVE To get around the laws.

[Hello_Kitty]

67. Yes, you just want the laws to be changed so you don't have to pay taxes. eom

[TahitiNut]

68. With all due respect (truly), it might benefit you most to realize how incredibly fortunate you are.

As you've posted, tax avoidance has been a strategy all along. You keep profits low (and untaxed) by making "capital improvements" ... but God forbid there be any capital gains? That's something 95% of the people in this country can't even get close to -- who WORK their asses off all their lives.

You were apparently born into this situation. Sperm lottery. Do you have any idea at all how many people would LOVE to have a family business that could just SUPPORT them???

You repeatedly talk about dedication and (paraphrasing) you "labor of love" to build and keep the business going. Do you have any fucking idea about how us mere mortals work with the same pride and self-esteem for employers ... and then get canned??? You aren't the only person to pour yourself into your occupation.

Cripes! I'm hearing whining and an almost total failure to have gratitude for what most folks would damned near kill to have.

"Republican?" The people who disagree with you? Bullshit. If anything is "Republican" it's the "I've got mine and I damned well don't want to pay taxes like others do!!!" attitude I'm hearing!

[KittyWampus]

71. Guess what, I and my family have worked OUR asses off all our lives. Does that escape you?

That means my grandparents, parents and siblings. That is being on the job 24 hours a day 7 days a week. It isn't clocking in on a job and going home.

And "keep profits low" equals putting a new roof on the house. Boy THAT's really tax evasion. Replacing outworn copper pipes with PVC. What an extravagance.

And guess what else, if the economy gets a lot worse WE MIGHT NOT BE ABLE TO PAY THE BILLS. The people we employ won't get the work during the season and sure as HELL won't get unemployment. You'll have plenty of sympathy for them then wouldn't you. But you're too blind to consider the fact we go out of our way to keep people working here almost 2 months after the season is over so they can collect unemployment during the winter.

And if and when we do sell this place? It gets turned into McMansions for wealthy people who will use their houses for a few days each summer. They won't join the ambulance squad or help out the local schools or food pantries. They won't keep on eye on their neighbor's kids or houses cause they live in their own little bubble.

According to you, working your ass off only counts if you get laid off.

[TahitiNut]

75. So has MY family, sweetie. Everyone. Military service. Worked all our lives. Everyone.

And we don't have 1/100th what you say you have.

You just don't seem to appreciate the FACT that people work their asses off all over this country -- to make others wealthy -- and die without anything.


This says it all: "clocking in on a job and going home."

You don't seem to have the foggiest notion of how most folks work. Into the night. Weekends. Holidays. Often around the clock. On call! Even those not regarded as "exempt" ... just to keep the job and do something they have pride in. THAT'S how I worked. THAT'S how virtually any programmer or nurse or other technicians and paraprofessionals work.

You paint others (lower life-forms) with the broad brush of "clocking in" ... and I haven't even seen a time clock in nearly 40 years!

Sheesh!

[rufus dog]

80. You are acting like a Republican

It is not about you it is about me.... oh wait someone is acting like a Republican, who would that be?

[girl gone mad]

97. But it sounds like you won the real estate lottery.

It's hard to understand what you're complaining about.

[SammyWinstonJack]

114. No kidding. I am trying real hard to understand what her problem is, exactly?

:shrug: Love to have a family business worth $4mil, if only in real estate alone. We're struggling to keep our house, worth $150k(maybe) while 'clocking in' on a job that requires 10hrs/day and is commission based only. I'd trade with the OP in a heartbeat.

[JVS]

133. Well maybe if you weren't freeloading 14 hour each day...

:sarcasm:

[JVS]

131. It's like Jed Clampett complaining that the land on which he was shootin for some food has become...

valuable due to that bubblin crude. Even they knew to enjoy the situation.

[TwilightGardener]

138. LOL! Exactly. If my family were sitting on 4 million, I'd be looking forward to a cement pond.

[Ignis]

157. THIS

Most of us didn't win the lottery-by-birth.

If everything falls apart in your life and you suddenly had to "cash out," you're still $4 MILLION ahead of most of us worker drones.

So please temper your outrage at estate taxes with sympathy for those of us born without estates.

[Breeze54]

99. Are you on a farm? Does the Inheritance tax apply there as well?

:shrug:

Maybe it doesn't anymore.

I thought small farms were excluded. :shrug:

[lukasahero]

111. This is probably the most obnoxious post I've ever read here.

"It isn't clocking in on a job and going home." For all the 'little' people who take pride in the work they do, work their asses off to do the best job they can no matter whether they punch a clock or not, screw you.

[TahitiNut]

146. Yup. It sure betrays a condescending attitude towards those not fortunate enough to be born ...

... into a family where the grandparents bought land and built a business that has survived long enough to offer people in the family a place to work and support themselves. There are many people who're merely seeking that "place to work" and earn just enough to support them. The idea that there's some "curse" that the assets are worth MILLIONS is mind boggling.

I somehow seriously doubt the grandparents had MILLIONS to spend when they set up the business. That their descendants are somehow being unfairly treated to have that opportunity is insane. It seems that the ability to create a thriving business WASN'T inherited. Too bad. So sad.

[Pithlet]

173. I know. One of the most barftaststic things I've ever read on DU.

I hope the OP is taxed to the teeth when the time comes.

[elizfeelinggreat]

109. Yep, this is what we're hearing

"I've got mine and I damned well don't want to pay taxes like others do!!!"

[cemaphonic]

172. Hell, not just taxes.

She apparently doesn't even want to pay a good cpa or tax lawyer to help her structure the estate so that taxes aren't a problem.

[rufus dog]

73. Be careful who you are attempting to label a Republican

So you worked your ass off, great. I don't fucking care, I worked my ass off too, put myself through college, went in as a skinny 6'1 165 pounder. Left as a skinny 145 pounder. Worked extra hours, made a lot of money for the companies I worked for, boo fucking who, poor me. Had years where I had to pay over 100k in taxes, boo fucking who poor me. Look you should be elated that you are sitting on land appreciation that will make you rich. You personally didn't create that appreciation, you didn't pay taxes on the appreciation so quit the bitching. When I do taxes and see my bill I have two thoughts, how fucking lucky I am to make the money to pay those taxes, and how the taxes are going to pay for Bush screw ups.

You my man haven't paid your share yet and you are the one acting like a Repuke by saying you don't want to pay. Your increase in net worth is based upon where your ancestors bought land, and you get the first 4 million covered. Pay up and shut up.


Edited to condemn myself - Pay up and shut up is too harsh, but come on, in good times you shouldn't be bitching about having to pay taxes on appreciation of an asset that wasn't taxed at the appreciated rate. In bad times it is mind blowing.

[KittyWampus]

How does the land make me "rich" unless it's sold or mortgaged? And if we do sell, we most certainly

will be paying taxes on that appreciation.

And this place will turn into a bunch of extravagant houses for the REALLY rich who only live here on the weekends during the summer and don't give a shit about the community.

And the point is, faced with inheritance taxes on the ballooned real estate value, I couldn't pay them because I DON'T HAVE A LOT OF MONEY. We can't afford big salaries.

So my question, before logging off and giving up... do you support small family businesses and having them go from generation to generation?

Because my OP clearly stated that was what I was referring to.

[TwilightGardener]

140. Why should I give a crap if small businesses are passed from one generation

to the next? Why is that in my interest? If your family business goes belly-up, another entrepreneur will take its place. Small businesses pop up, and succeed, and fail, all the time--that's NORMAL. My grandfather owned a barber shop. He sold it, retired, that was it--no other barbers in the family. I'm not entitled to anything because he owned a small business--why are you? Why does having a family business mean you're more valuable to society than the rest of us, that we need to worry about what you get out of it or about your survival as a business?

[Juche]

60. I'm not sure how the tax law works

So I can't really help you. However, the mere fact that you are likely inheriting about 20 million worth of land places you in a very privileged minority. Many people work their whole lives and never earn 1 million in gross income, let alone 10-20.

Either way, a lawyer can help you out. I can understand some of your arguments (you've put alot of time and effort into your family business, now you think you have to sell it off to pay the tax bill), but if you are getting taxed heavily you are among a tiny, tiny minority of family businesses, which mean your family business has more assets than 99% of the other family businesses in America. Not to be a dick, but America is a country where people die because they can't afford $100,000 in chemotherapy and where food banks are having to shut their doors despite lines around the block. People having to pay taxes on 10-30 million that they inherieted is not too bad really. Alot of people would kill for the situation you have. FTR, the taxes you pay on your estate, when all is said and done, will probably be lower than the Federal income, FICA, state income, property taxes, etc. that everyone else has to pay. I pay about 25% of my gross income in taxes. You may only end up paying 14% of your gross inheritance in taxes if you play it right.

http://www.cbpp.org/estatetaxmyths.pdf

Myth 3: Many small, family-owned farms and businesses must be liquidated to pay estate
taxes.

Reality: The number of small, family-owned farms and businesses that owe
any estate tax at all is tiny, and virtually no such farms and businesses have to
be liquidated to pay the tax.

The estate of only 0.24 percent of all people who die in 2009 (i.e., the estates of
between two and three of every 1,000 people who die) are expected to owe any estate
tax, according to the Tax Policy Center.2 And only about 1.3 percent of the few
estates that still are taxable are small business or farm estates.3

TPC estimates that only 80 small business and farm estates nationwide will owe any estate tax in 2009. This figure represents only 0.003 percent of all estates — that is, the estates
of three out of every 100,000 people who die this year.

Furthermore, the minuscule number of small business and farm estates that do owe
estate tax generally owe only a modest percentage of the estate’s value in tax. The 80
small farm and business estates left by people who die in 2009 that will owe any estate
tax will owe the tax at an average rate of just 14 percent..4

[Trajan]

63. One in a long string of self focused posts ....

Same silliness ... Different name ....

Im going off to cry now ....

For you, of course .....

To hell with everybody else ...

[rufus dog]

66. What I am assuming from reading this thread

Is the majority of the gains are in the real estate that the business sits on, not the actual increase on the business.

So there are a lot suggestions on ways to get around estate taxes, but you keep going back to basically saying you worked your ass off and deserve all of it.

If your value is based upon the real estate and not profits from the business then it is tougher. If a lot of cash exists is could be distributed as extra income.

I want you to think about one thing though, if it is all real estate appreciation and let's say the original cost of the land was 400k and is now 4 million, you didn't pay taxes on that appreciation. That doesn't change the fact that you may have worked your ass off, but a lot of people work their ass off and don't walk away with 3.5 million.

[KittyWampus]

77. You have it exactly. The sole reason this place is worth so much is crazy real estate

and we aren't the only small business in this situation.

And how, if I keep this place going am I "walking away with 3.5 million'?

That would only happen if this place was sold. In which case, you have to pay capital gains, yes?

[TahitiNut]

85. Actually, you should LOVE the estate tax then.

"That would only happen if this place was sold. In which case, you have to pay capital gains, yes?"

Here's the deal.

A long-standing rationale for an estate tax is the FACT that the capital gain on the value of the assets in an estate at the time of the owner's death are NOT taxed. Nope.

The estate is formed and the assets are evaluated at their market value. BUT THEY ARE NOT ASSESSED A CAPITAL GAINS TAX at that point! Got that?

The heir could SELL the very next day and pay ZILCH in capital gains tax.

The estate tax is often (and it sounds like ESPECIALLY in your case) far less than the capital gains tax that the owner might pay if he/she sold it all the day before he/she died.

If the heir sells at some later date, the capital gains are calculated from the time of the inheritance to the time of sale ... NOT from the time the assets were first bought.

That's a HUGE tax break.

[Redbear]

70. It appears that your problem is not the inheritance tax

but the economic consequences of urbanization/suburbanization.

The free market has decided that the real property on which your business sits is too valuable to support a small business in the long term.

But for that problem, the business you have worked so hard to support would likely be worth less than the exemptions and you could inherit the business without the taxes.

Its sad when family farms and small businesses get eaten up by "progress."

However, most people would say that a huge increase in land value is a problem they would love to have.

[KittyWampus]

79. But it only "pays off" if the land is sold. Our business in and of itself wouldn't be worth much.

And while people think they'd love to have this problem, it would mean killing off something that existed through 3 generations, over 50 years and involves a level of work that is literally 24/7. When people call at 3:00 in the morning we HAVE TO ANSWER. Last summer when our employee of 15 years quit unexpectedly cause of personal issues, I spent one week doing everything and nearly had a break down.

So I don't know if a lot of people would like to have this problem because there's a lot of CONSTANT WORK that involves people who aren't always so nice included.

[rufus dog]

81. O.K.

So if you love doing "it" sell the land and lease back the portion your business is on. But based on your comments you don't seem to love doing "it."

I'll take "buy a clue for $1000 Alex"

Why are you complaining when you have so many options when so many others have so few options?

[KittyWampus]

88. The issue is- do you support small family businesses and having them pass through generations?

It seems a number of DU'ers really just don't see that as desirable.

My point in this thread is- inheritance laws make it difficult for this to happen where real estate values have rocketed unless you turn to trusts etc.

And am I complaining? I am trying to point out how much work I've put into this place ABOVE what I've gotten in wages and real compensation.

Some DU'ers seem to think having a small business is living in the lap of luxury or sitting around eating cake.

People seem to not really care about family businesses.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

121. Look here, Kitty, several people on this thread have given you LEGAL ways

to avoid or reduce the estate tax.

You need to see an estate attorney instead of bitching about "unfairness" to a bunch of people, many of whom are barely making it from month to month. If the "value" of your business is due solely to the real estate bubble, then a clever attorney may be able to shelter the land somehow.

Or is it more fun to repeat self-centered talking points instead of actually DOING SOMETHING about your situation?

[KittyWampus]

143. And yet my point is why should the land go into a trust at this point? You seem to think we

are living in luxury and assured that we can meet bills in the coming year with the economy crumbling.

So no, it isn't self-centered at all to point out how screwed up things are when it comes to real estate values and small family businesses.

A progressive Democrat doesn't need to pit a small business owner against the unemployed.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

164. Sometimes you have to face reality and understand that the outcome you

want just isn't possible. As the Rolling Stones put it, "You can't always get what you want."

Hey, I wanted to get around a silly Japanese law that requires translation clients to withhold 10% of my pay for Japanese taxes on "royalties," even though I don't live there and there's a tax treaty between Japan and the U.S. (If I lived there, the withholding would be 20%, but then I'd actually get some of the benefits of being a Japanese taxpayer.)

Since Japanese bureaucrats DO NOT BUDGE, I have to make the best of the situation and go through the paperwork to deduct the tax paid to Japan from my U.S. income tax.

It's a hassle, but hey, it's reality.

[TwilightGardener]

152. Do you support what I do? Do you worry about my taxes, or what I inherit, or how much I work?

Do you worry about my family's income, or what my children and grandchildren will do to earn a living? Why are you more speshul than the rest of us? Odd sense of entitlement, you have.

[Muttocracy]

82. isn't being able to inherit a valuable business and real estate part of your compensation?

You're not getting nothing for your efforts. None of my employers ever gave me housing or real estate. I will inherit nothing from my family.

[KittyWampus]

87. Without an estate lawyer setting up trusts, I wouldn't be able to afford the inheritance taxes.

We can't afford to pay much in wages so I don't have much money.

What this boils down to- do you or other people want to really support small family businesses and allowing them to go from generation to generation?

If the answer is yes, IMO the inheritance tax needs to reflect real estate prices. Cause the land a building is sitting on can be worth a lot but that worth isn't liquid. We can't access that unless we sell. Or mortgage.

[Muttocracy]

89. can you do a conservation easement? nt

[KittyWampus]

93. You mean donate a portion of land for tax credits? That's actually a good idea!

It would get the place through to me... and while it would work for me it wouldn't work if I have kids who I wanted to pass the place on to.

But if I understand what you suggested, it's a great idea.

This place does have things like the Nature Conservancy. I bet that's what a lot of people have done.

[Muttocracy]

96. Nature Conservancy would be a place to check on LI - here's an example

of a group up in my area. As I understand it, putting a conservation easement restricts the deed for future owners, and thus de-values the property (since you're not going to allow it to be converted into a bunch of McMansions on 1/2 acre lots). It sounded like you were worried about the tax implications and protecting the land, so... If you're in an NYS Ag District, or if you're actively in farming/horticulture, there may be state or federal programs, or work with American Farmland Trust or something.

http://fllt.org/protect_your_land/easement.php

[lumberjack_jeff]

137. Here's some more info.

It is also called "selling development rights".

http://news.ucanr.org/newsstorymain.cfm?story=416

Use it as you see fit. Using that option allows you to pass the (less valuable) property on to your heirs.

Think hard about it though, you keep the property, but it (for all practical purposes) stops increasing in value. Probably better to just pay the tax.

If, at its highest and best use, it's worth $10m, the estate tax bill is $1.1m. If you sell the development rights to your local government, the value probably drops far below the $7.5m threshold.

[KittyWampus]

145. I actually really, really LIKE that idea. It has the added benefit of sticking a finger

in the real estate developers eye.

[lumberjack_jeff]

190. Good luck. If you take that route, I apologize because I've seriously misjudged you. n/t

[Hello_Kitty]

91. And once again

If you are running a business that is barely scraping by, on a valuable piece of land, then you DO have the option of liquidating it. OTOH, if your business was in the same situation, but on a plot that wasn't worth shit, then you wouldn't be facing an estate tax.

IOW, you are one of the lucky ones.

[MilesColtrane]

118. Can't afford the tax?

Borrow against the land.

If paying the note is enough to destroy your business, then you haven't done a very good job of managing it.

[Dreamer Tatum]

86. HERE HERE.

K&R

[Breeze54]

92. Inheritance Taxes for those who inherit less than $100,000,000 is obscene!

I actually pulled the $100M figure out of my ass :eyes: :sarcasm: but I know about 'inheritance tax'... sort of... actually not much because I didn't pay any of it. *smirk* But someone else did and they weren't happy. I don't blame them at all!! It wasn't like the deceased was a millionaire (almost) BUT the amount of inheritance tax was RIDICULOUS!!!!! :grr:

[MiniMe]

106. They didn't pay the inheritance tax, the estate did

You don't pay estate taxes on what you inherit. You get whatever is left when the estate closes. If you inherit property, you inherit it on the stepped up basis at the time of death. Irrevokable Trust accounts can help a lot in the planning. I went through a bit of this a few years ago when my Dad died. I didn't get any of the estate, my Mother did. Dad did a great job on his estate planning, and my mother paid no taxes. It wasn't a huge estate either. And her estate is set up so that when I inherit (hopefully a long, long time from now), I won't have to pay estate taxes either. I inherited a bit of money from my Grandmother's estate (not much), but I never had to pay taxes on it. The estate itself pays the taxes.

[elizfeelinggreat]

110. Thank you for pointing this out

The ESTATE pays the tax.

[Breeze54]

201. It still deminishes the pay outs to the inheritors...

that was my point.

[1]

101. vee do not care how hard you vorked to build vat you have. vee vant it. vee are entitled to it...

so sign zee papers, old man. or vee vill take it anyway.

give it up, kittywampus. the brownshirts in this thread are looking at your business as if it were a piece of art in a paris home in 1940.

spoils to be captured...

[SammyWinstonJack]

115. 'brownshirts'?

:eyes:

[KittyWampus]

147. I think maybe a French accent and the allusion to Robespierre might work better

[SoCalDem]

102. The 2nd & 3rd generation HEIRS are the "problem"...not the taxes

MANY small family businesses "own" very little.. they may own the fixtures & display cases, the office machines etc, and the inventory..

If the inventory is cyclical or seasonal, it's not that valuable after its time has passed.

The "clientele" is fickle, and often do not "take to" the youngers when they inherit..

If they own the building, ..well that's pretty much real estate, and unless all the heirs agree on how to run the business, and all are willing to share, they usually end up liquidating to satisfy the ones who want the money..

Historically,many small businesspeople and farmers succeeded too well.. they wanted more for their kids, and sent them off to college.. By the time Mom & Dad pass away, they are not even remotely interested in the "family business or farm"..they have lives of their own, and many (if not most) just want the money..

There is a generous allowance now, before the inheritance tax kicks in..It's fine the way it is..

If Mom and dad are smart, they will liquidate themselves and enjoy the fruits of their labors while they are alive..

[MicaelS]

105. You will find little emapthy or symapthy here.

First, too many people in this country have worked for small businesses and gotten screwed in the process to have any sympathy for the concerns of small business people. Your attitude of poor, poor, pitiful me, is far too often representative of small business owners. Americans get tired of hearing how disaster is always just around the corner for all businesses in America, but especially small businesses, anytime government tries to do something for anyone except business. American businesses seems to be a bunch of Chicken Littles. The fact is that businesses in this country have fought every attempt by government to better the life of the businesses’ employees.

Second, you want to have it both ways. You want to claim how much you have worked and sacrificed for your family business, and that your family can not afford to pay you enough for your labor. You complain how little the business is actually “worth”. Yet, then you turn right around and claim it is so “valuable” to you on an emotional and familial level. If it’s so terrible then why are you still in the family business?

So what’s more important to you, the financial or the emotional fulfillment? Because it seems to be the emotional fulfillment. If it was financial you would have found another job a long time ago. You have something few people have, a guaranteed job. You don’t have to go to bed every night, or wake every morning, with the fear you will be fired.

Here’s a little life lesson for you; Freedom and Security and inextricably linked, just like the old fashioned measuring scales. You want a balance; you have to even things out. You want more on one side; you have to remove it from the other. If you want more Freedom you’re going to have to sacrifice Security. If you want more Security you’re going to have to sacrifice some Freedom. Your problem is that you want to maximize both, and that can’t happen.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

123. Very wise post!

:thumbsup:

[treestar]

127. If no one ran a business, there wouldn't be any jobs!!!!!

:banghead:

The poor poor pitiful me is you, entitled to work for someone for high wages and not having to worry about whether the product sells! go home and watch American idol while the owner tries to figure out how to make the payroll!

[JVS]

130. Ohhh a supply sider, eh?

:popcorn:

[Hello_Kitty]

154. And if no one can buy anything, no one can run a business

As for the long-suffering small business owners, most of the ones I know are Repukes even though the GOP does nothing for small businesses and everything for the big chains. They swallow all the propaganda and only care about their taxes.

[ItNerd4life]

160. So, you love BIG business then?

If you hate small businesses and you hate big businesses then where do people work?

Sorry, but you have zero logic.

[MicaelS]

166. I've worked for both

And I have gotten better salary and benefits at big businesses. But I don't love big business. I'm just tired of complaints of business people of all sizes about how much they are oppressed by society at large.

[JVS]

113. .

:nopity:

[Stinky The Clown]

119. I understand what you're saying

I don't entirely agree with, but I mostly do.

You're absolutely right about the dearth of third generation businesses.

Too many equate trust fund kids with kids who inherit after WORKING THEIR ASSES OFF for a lifetime to get there. It has always pissed me off that a child who works a lifetime in the family business has to, in effect, buy it from the retiring parent.

Looking for sympathy or hoping for an honest discussion on this topic on DU was a mistake.

[JackDragna]

124. Then purchase the business before the owners die.

That way, there's no taxes to be paid, so long as doing so would be cheaper than the inheritance taxes.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

165. IN FACT...a really clever estate attorney

could probably figure out how to transfer the property at little cost to you.

It's up to you. You can gripe about this on an Internet message board, or you can consult an estate planning attorney and learn about possible ways to avoid estate taxes.

The choice is yours.

[lumberjack_jeff]

125. Then business needs a new reality.

When your parents die, either pay the taxes and continue business or liquidate and retire on the $7.5 million plus. Assuming the estate is worth $10m, your effective tax rate is 11.25%. If it's worth less than $7.5m; no tax, if it's worth that "little" you're whining about literally nothing.

Besides, I've heard this bullshit story too many times. If your company is worth as much as you say it is, it is almost certainly a corporation. You are always welcome to sell the shares in your company, bringing in a partner would help you pay your taxes.

I simply don't care about your "curtailed nightlife". Affluence is not a birthright. Third generation businesses are rare because they have been raised with the idea that they are entitled by birth to a standard of living far in excess to that which their skills can bring.

When and if your business closes its doors, another will spring up to fill your niche, or your competitors will enjoy increased sales.

My sympathies go to those who are suffering. $7.5m tax free is not "suffering". The only reason that I'd entertain favorable terms to inheritance tax repayments is to minimize the impact on the business' employees.

I worked for 20 years for (what started out as) a small, family-run business. The founder started the business because he was belligerent to the point of being unemployable - he was the only person who would put up with him as an employee. His great good fortune was that his son had a head for business. I went to work for him not long after he took over as president. We built the business up to about $25m in annual sales. Just after I left, he transferred control to his eldest son, not terribly bright, and completely entitled and ego driven. He and the chief engineer decided that they were smart enough that they could build someone else's patented product because they felt that the patent was bogus. They lost $5m in the subsequent lawsuit, and they're liable to lose another $10m or so in a follow-up lawsuit (because they kept building that patented product for 3 years after they were sued for the first batch).

The company might survive, but if it fails, it will be because of the attitudes of the third generation who have become used to "deserving" something for nothing without ever needing to rely upon their own merit.

That's what's "not fair".

[TwilightGardener]

136. No offense intended, but when my folks die, their "estate" will consist of old furniture

and a couple of cats. Can't relate to your four-million-dollar crisis.

[madmom]

149. I have a small 3 bedroom house on a small postage stamp lot, my

in laws have a bigger 3 bedroom house on a lot about 3 times the size of mine. My property tax is about twice the size of theirs. Why? We live in a much better school district (same town).What makes it even worse is now we have "open enrollment" so their kids can come to our school.How is that fair to me? I don't like paying taxes either, but I do!

[MiniMe]

150. While I understand what you are saying, YOU don't pay the taxes.

The taxes are on the ESTATE. You would inherit the property at it's stepped up value as of the date of death. So if the property is worth $1,000,000, that would be the new basis for your property. You could sell the property on that date and get the money for it and pay no taxes at all. There is NO inheritance tax.

There are lots of people in that boat now, including somebody who bought a home years ago, and the property taxes now are more than they paid for the house.

[NoPasaran]

153. Not much love from the keyboard jacobins.

[MilesColtrane]

187. That's unfair.

...lumping all of us in with that old communist, bomb-thrower Teddy Roosevelt.

[progressivebydesign]

155. Fire your accountant, if you're only making "enough to cover expense" and u say your worth millions.

Because that's what the inheritance tax is all about. About people inheriting millions of dollars... not the mom and pop biz. If you're barely making it, yet you say that someone could stand to inherit more than 4 million, then you need some financial guidance.

[Hello_Kitty]

161. She is getting financial advice. She acknowledges as much on this thread.

She doesn't think it's fair that she has to incorporate or set up a trust. She thinks she should get the inheritance free and clear without having to do anything. Because she worked so hard on it, donchaknow.

[riqster]

156. Eveybody pays taxes, and just about everybody thinks they are paying too much

I sympathize with your real-estate-induced problem, but in these times of stratospheric deficits cannot support taking even more revenue out of the stream.

[ItNerd4life]

159. It's really pathetic that people are ripping you

It just goes to show the accuracy of your statement.

Small businesses are the cornerstone of creating Jobs in this country.
Yet people are ripping you because you want to keep the business running and keep people employed.

I guess some people on the left want everybody to be unemployed or that people only work for BIG BUSINESS. :crazy:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

167. Did you read the whole thread?

The OP is ignoring the legal and reasonable solutions that people are suggesting.

[KittyWampus]

192. I have repeatedly stated we have an expert estate lawyer.

[lukasahero]

171. "Small businesses are the cornerstone of creating Jobs in this country."

This small business employs 2 people.

"We aren't sure we can afford to hire both employees this summer cause we don'tknow business is going to be like." emphasis added
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4984124#4984290

[KittyWampus]

193. plus the guy that helps do the major hedge trimming. Yeah, fuck small businesses

they only employ 2 or 3 people. And volunteer and keep an eye on the neighborhood.

[lukasahero]

199. Nobody's saying fuck small businesses

But let's be real about this particular business's place as the cornerstone of creating jobs in this economy.

[dysfunctional press]

162. if your family business is worth that much and you haven't protected it through trusts...

then you're the clueless ones.

[Dora]

169. The OP's attitude about creating a trust...

"I shouldn't have to."

:eyes:

[KittyWampus]

194. Very true. Why should a family's property go into a Trust?

[Pithlet]

198. When it's worth millions, they should.

I support the inheritance tax fully. Yeah, you worked hard. Lots of people do. You aren't automatically entitled. Sorry. I say this as someone who comes from a family who's had more than one business here and there along the way over the generations. I've even spent time working at one of them. Our blood, sweat and tears isn't exactly worth more than anyone else's, despite what you say. Your family business is lucky enough to still be existing and is lucky enough to be sitting on property worth millions. Count your lucky stars. Don't wag your fingers at those of us who support a progressive tax, and don't insult the hard work of those who weren't lucky enough to be born into a family business by insinuating it it's somehow less than, because we "clock out", or we didn't give up our prom.

[philk17088]

168. inheritance taxes

If your family can't figure out how to avoid inheritance taxes,you really shouldn't be in business.

[cabluedem]

174. I am with you, KW. Our family business went broke due to lots of pressure from different sources. nt

[FlaGatorJD]

176. My letter to the editor on the "death tax" during 2004 elections

Letter: Calling the GOP's bluff


The Republicans are so desperate they're making things up.

With campaign warchests stocked full by convicted felons like Jeff Skilling, Ken Lay and Jack Abramoff, they bombard us daily with misleading anti-Democrat commercials.

They claim Sen. Bill Nelson voted for a death tax. You might say, "I didn't even know there was a tax on death." That's because there isn't one. The death tax is a pejorative term used for the estate tax, conjured up by Republicans hoping to eliminate it. This will be a primary goal of President Bush during his lame-duck presidency, unless he's busy with impeachment proceedings.

Since the Republicans have no interest in telling the truth about the estate tax, here are some facts. Only one-half of 1 percent of people who die, that is five in 1,000, pay estate tax, and that number will fall to three in 1,000 in 2009. Again, less than 1 percent. The Bush tax cuts increased the exemption amounts, so now only couples receiving over $4 million are taxed.

In 2009, the amount goes up to $7 million. Repealing the tax will result in debt totaling $1 trillion, during the first 10 years, and charitable organizations would lose billions. Hospitals, universities, religious organizations and other humanitarian organizations would lose a major source of income.

The Congressional Budget Office estimated that $13 billion to $25 billion in charitable donations would not have been made in 2000, without the incentives in the estate tax.

Government by the richest, for the richest!

Added note:(With the current situation, anyone with $4mil in assets doesn't get much sympathy from me)

[hfojvt]

197. nice letter

and I agree. I am not going to a pity party for anybody who is inheriting $4 million in assets. The proceeds from a sale would support me comfortably for the next 50 years.

[cottonseed]

177. People here would rather work for Corporations and feel sorry for themselves.

Then to have a shred of empathy with a small business owner. I'm sorry that you posted this.

By the way, I'm fourth generation and won't be taking over the family business. It will probably be sold to a corporate entity. Sad as hell, but that's where this country is going. Big business won. And anarchists, socialists, populists, and DUers applaud them every step of the way.

[FlaGatorJD]

178. If my "small business" had $4 million in assets . .

then I could "empathize", but I sure wouldn't be looking for "sympathy" from a group that
is raising awareness about poverty right now!

And what the hell does it mean that big business won!

Big business lost, because of all the damn greed, and the ultimate losers were us taxpayers.

[cottonseed]

182. Yea.. we bailed them out. They won.

Small independent workers, businesses and crafts people will lose. Because we were drained, larger business with the help of tax payers will continue on, collecting all that sweet profit. They'll create markets outside the US if they have to. I'd call that a win.

[LSK]

181. You REALLY REALLY need to hire a new accountant and/or attorney

:eyes:

[KittyWampus]

196. We already have one. The POINT is, regular families shouldn't have to hire specialists

to set up some vehicle to avoid... oh, never mind.

I give up.

spitting in the wind.

[lukasahero]

200. Most "regular" families aren't sitting on 4 mil eom

[rucky]

195. Thanks!

We're in a pretty tight situation right now, and could use some help. Seems that corporations get all the attention, and small business does all the heavy lifting!

[sendero]

202. I'm for 100% estate taxes..

.... rich kids have already had every advantage, why should they get even more?

If your parents are worried about it, they can GIVE IT TO YOU while they are alive and problem solved.

[mitchum]

203. Go fuck yourself with a tiny violin...maybe you can inherit that also