Our neighbor was laid off yesterday. She went to work and her job just diappeared.

[Skidmore]

We have a monthly get together in our town--a quasi townhall meeting and gossip session, or what passes for one in this small unincorporated village. I hadn't seen her since the holidays. We were exchanging greetings and she told me that she had gone to work in the morning only to learn that her job and that of two other people in the small company she worked for no longer exist. She had worked there for 23 years. One of the other women laid off--also someone who had worked for >20 years--learned by phone. They called her at home after she returned from the doctor to tell her not to come back. There's no retirement plans at this company, only 401K plans that have lost nearly all their value. No medical benefits to even try to cobble into COBRA plans--not that anyone could afford COBRA even if you could purchase it while working much less unemployed. Her husband has his own business constructing custom cabinetry but construction is taking a nosedive too.

As bad as things are in the cities, there is even less to fall back on in rural areas. Our local news now has a bit at the beginning of each evening broacast where the companies that laid off that day are listed with the number of jobs let go.

[izquierdista]

1. Less to fall back on

In this economy, at least you can plant a garden to fall back on. Start planning it now and get your seeds and supplies and prepare the ground. I think a lot of people are going to be skipping the ornamental plants this spring for ones they can eat or sell.

[marions ghost]

2. not everybody can do that

the answer is group or community gardens. Some have to be taught and others are too old to do the hard work.

[conscious evolution]

3. Gardens are good.

They help foster community.

[marions ghost]

6. yes

but not everybody can do their own. Either they don't have enough workable space, they don't know how, they are too young or too old. You need to have some community gardens where everybody can help to the best of their ability. We are not all farmers and never will be.

[izquierdista]

4. Everybody CAN do that

I just knew that a pessimist would reply to dismiss my observation. There is nothing like necessity to make those who don't know learn and those who are too old remember how it was during the last Depression -- and pass along their wisdom.

Yes, group and community gardens are a good idea. A few who can only put in part time in the garden can add up to a full time productive gardener. After the Soviet Union fell apart, most of the common folk fell back on their gardens to support them, when their jobs or pensions quit being paid. I remember talking to co-workers in the '90s who went to Russia on business tell stories: "We wanted to invite our hosts to do something fun on the weekend, but they all deferred, saying they had to work in the garden. We thought this was strange, until we realized that over half of what they ate was not bought with their salaries, but came from their gardens."

Ronald Reagan "won" the Cold War and everyday Russians turned into gardeners; George Bush "won" the War on Terror and everyday Americans are going to have to turn into gardeners.

[marions ghost]

8. Hey don't call me a pessimist

I'm a realist with optimistic leanings.:) I'm all for gardens and people growing food. My point is that a lot of people underestimate what that really means and have no idea how to do it. It is work. Hard work. It takes skill, knowledge, planning & a lot of time. It would be best if those who are good at it would help establish gardens where people could learn and participate.

If you just tell the average person to go buy a bunch of seeds and scratch up their dirt and have a go at it...well, let me know how the harvest turns out... :shrug:

I'm ON YOUR SIDE. Just making a point. No need for crabby.

[serrano2008]

10. I think your post does a good job summing up our society.

God forbid people actually work at something outside of their comfort zone while learning new skills which will encourage new ideas.

"...well, let me know how the harvest turns out..."

Exactly, and either they'll learn from their mistakes to have a good harvest the next year or they'll sit and complain about how they can't afford their cell phone anymore, and can't go out to Applebee's every night, and ask the Govt. to send them money.

[marions ghost]

11. go find another scapegoat

I have said that I'm all in favor of community gardening where people can learn--but if idealists who have never grown anything just go out and buy seeds and stick them in the ground, they'll probably give up on the whole thing fairly soon.

Growing food is a skill and an art. You insult gardeners and farmers with your idea that "anyone can do it." (and those who can't are merely slackers and complainers).

Your post sums up our society--people who don't read before posting, make erroneous assumptions, and make mountains out of molehills. :eyes:

[izquierdista]

13. Who "anyone" is

In this post-Industrial Age, we tend to forget our ancestry, that before the Industrial Revolution, almost everyone and anyone could be and was, a farmer. When the pioneers got through cutting down enough trees to put up a log cabin, they planted on the land that they had just cleared. Agriculture wasn't a science back then, more a collection of common wisdom and hints to make plants grow better, and almanacs which gave which days to plant what seeds. Anyone and everyone pretty much had to do it, skill and art notwithstanding. It was only after the fields were tended to that people had time to devote to other talents, such as builder, furniture maker, or tailor. Do you think that Van Gogh just sat back and painted the peasants of Flanders? I will bet that was AFTER he had pitched in a hand to reap some wheat or dig some potatoes.

Had agriculture been a science, the Irish potato famine wouldn't have happened, as farmers would have known about crop rotation, preventing disease, intercropping, diversifying, etc. As it was, they were overdependent on a vulnerable strain of potato and were in the situation of "just go out and stick something in the ground and see what they get".

People today, like the woman in the original post who found her job taken away, are in a much better situation, especially if they live in a rural area. They can find a wide assortment of vegetable plants at their local home improvement store. They can find gardening information at the library on how to make these plants grow. They have a resource in the USDA county agricultural agent, if they only knew to walk in the office and pick up all the brochures they can carry. They can relearn the skill and art that their ancestors had to count on.

I don't know how long or how severe Bush's depression will be, but I do know that flower beds will become tomato patches, garbage will become compost, dogwoods and azaleas will be cut down and replanted with apple trees and grape vines, and more people will know where their food comes from.

[marions ghost]

15. you can have all the brochures and books you want--

they don't help you if you have no idea how to really go about it. Right, we don't have the wisdom of our ancestors. You can't become an instant farmer. And some people have no talent for the necessary observation that's required. They cannot read the plants & don't know what the plants want and need. They may try hard but still fail.

So anyway, moving on--how about considering my Q in post #12? Say the woman DOES grow a few veggies, with the help of her husband who has far less cabinetry work than he used to.

Can they STILL survive in America? I say maybe not.

[ejpoeta]

26. i will admit that i do NOT have a green thumb.

but I also know that I can call the 4-H and they will help me figure out what I am doing. I will bet they even have classes or something. we tried a garden last year. we started seeds in the house, and I believe where we went wrong was that we didn't put them in the ground when we should have. we waited too long because of the cold outside. so we learned from that. this year, we will do better. we did a couple of tomato plants that we bought already started and they were great!!! it was so great to have ripe, fresh tomatoes of our own!!

I remember when i was a kid we had a garden. we had all kinds of vegetables in that garden. and we are working towards having something like that again. we'll figure it out.

[marions ghost]

29. good luck

you have the right motivation. Maybe you can do it. Be prepared for disappointments--I say this as someone who has grown plants for many years. You will put in a lot of time and effort and realize some success. But I doubt it will be your only food source. That's the point I'm making--it's not a reasonable solution for many, but that's not to say that some won't succeed and grow some tomatoes and a few other vegetables.

In 10 years, if you grow food that long...remember this conversation. Be honest with yourself about how much real food you have put on yours--and hopefully your neighbors' --tables. If you've been successful, teach others.

[tsuki]

37. We put about 60% on our table. And our friends are starting to do

the same with their gardens.

For rural people, it is a very "reasonable" solution.

And we learned how to can and preserve out of books.

[marions ghost]

41. excellent

true, rural people really never stopped growing vegetables and so can help others do the same. And many suburbanites can learn (if they stop using herbicides long enough).

But America is a very urbanized nation. For many people growing their own food is not practical.

[tsuki]

42. And, apparently, a very stupid nation. We learned from books. I

was raised in urban areas.

[marions ghost]

43. I was raised in urban areas also--inner city

I still miss it because I liked the way people knew each other and often interacted in ways that they don't in the suburbs. I liked the way the streets were the arteries where people walked, not only for cars.

There's a lot to be said for the efficiency of urban living--and a lot of the populations of the world live in them. Are we all stupid? Should everybody go back to the land? Well Mao tried dumping everybody out into the countryside in the Chinese Cultural Revolution. Pretty much a disaster in the end. You can't always go back to something that worked in a previous era.

It's really a matter of allocation of resources as a country, not so much about making every single person self-sufficient.

It's not even about how much open space you have. Look at Australia--vast country, but it could not at present support the population of America. And yet, per capita, the Aussies are the MOST urbanized people in the world.

[serrano2008]

14. slackers and complainers = those not willing to learn

Anyone CAN do it.

Anyone can do anything they want to learn how to do.

[marions ghost]

16. dupe

[marions ghost]

17. eh?

And many people would not WANT to grow food from scratch because they know they have no aptitude or stamina for it.

Read my post # 12--So OK, she DOES grow her own food--OK then she survives--for what? Only to die from poor or non-existent health care?

[Name removed]

18. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KurtNYC]

19. Food has never been cheaper. Food is the easy part of the equation

Growing tomatoes won't pay for ones rent, health care or anything else. Heck it probably won't even pay for the vegetables you raise (eg it would be cheaper to buy them already canned). I can buy 28oz of canned tomatoes for 99 cents -- why the heck would I waste my time, money and energy growing my own? I would have to can them and that alone would be more than I pay to buy them canned.

I have never really understood why people want to "feed the homeless" ?! We don't run around saying "house the hungry." Food is the easy part.

[marions ghost]

21. Exactly. Thanx

See post #12--it seems that nobody here wants to discuss how to REALLY survive in this country. Nobody wants to suggest how this woman is REALLY going to make it--none of us really knows, but it might be worth a stab to imagine being in her situation. Even if you can manage to raise a few vegetables AND CAN them, can you only stay alive to go down the tubes some other way? Our situation is more precarious than people think.

I object to the survivalist mentality that's behind all the "grow your own" rhetoric here. It's just not going to work as easy as that nor is it even going to save us. There's a strong streak of arrogance in the survivalist mentality--it's just "let them eat cake" from the other side of the tracks.

We're all in this together.

[Pithlet]

31. Exactly.

Those little lovingly tendered gardens won't do much good when the property is forclosed on or you're evicted, either. It's silly. Gardens wouldn't grow the healthcare my family depends on for instance. Gardening is a hobby. It's not a solution to poverty, nor will it help much in such a crisis like a job loss.

[Bluenorthwest]

5. Gee. I'm the age of Old Man Barack

Ancient men we are, almost 50! And yet my body can not 'do the hard work'.

Physical abilities are not tied exclusivly to age, as I am sure you know. There are 18 year olds who can not 'do the hard work' and there are 88 year olds who can.

[marions ghost]

7. of course

I'm talking about anyone who is too out of shape or infirm to do heavy gardening, no matter what their age--although it does tend to go along with age that one can do less. I've seen 80 year olds capable of doing more physical work than 30 year olds, but they are the exception.

This really isn't my point. My point is, that not everybody can do their own gardening and farming successfully, for whatever reason. It's arrogant to just tell people "grow your own food."

Here's a true story. I have a good friend who wanted to grow veggies. He is an intellectual type who gets everything from books or the net. OK well, he worked and slaved on his little patch for a couple of years. He tended it everyday. He followed all instructions. He nursed and coddled. But his garden did not grow. Even his tomatoes were pitiful and puny. Part of the problem was the soil, I'm sure. But the other part of it was that he never really looked at the plants. He just went by the book. I call him the theoretical gardener. Now this guy is strong and could do well under the direction of a good gardener. But I think he would starve if he had to truly grow his own....

We have to think more in a community-minded way about growing food on small scale.

[dysfunctional press]

20. "heavy gardening" ?

what exactly is that? we have a very large garden every year, but i've never experienced "heavy gardening". i have never found the work of it to be especially taxing...:shrug:

[marions ghost]

23. Have you ever noticed

that many Americans can't lift wheelbarrows, run tillers, shovel (especially dense rocky soil), do repetitive motion tasks such as hoeing, pull hoses, etc.

No?--then get out of your garden and take a look around. :shrug:

[dysfunctional press]

24. then they'd better learn to exercise.

my frail 84-year old aunt has a beautiful garden every year. and so did my equally frail grandmother before she died. not every garden requires a wheelbarrow, or a full-sive shovel. and you don't have to use a hoe to get rid of weeds...pretty much everyone can get down on their hands and knees.

[marions ghost]

25. statistically insignificant

How many 84 year old aunts have a beautiful vegetable garden that they work entirely themselves?
Not too many. Any weeding, with hoe or not, is difficult. "Hands and knees"?--take a poll to see how many could really do it on a daily basis without serious injury.

It's just a misguided "solution" to what is a much bigger question...

How about some other ideas for this woman? Let's say she can grow vegetables. So what then?

[dysfunctional press]

38. "Let's say she can grow vegetables. So what then?"

wow. :eyes:
ummm...maybe she could try something revolutionary like- cooking and eating them?

"Hands and knees"?--take a poll to see how many could really do it on a daily basis without serious injury."
again- wow. just...wow. "serious injury"??? :rofl: :rofl:

"Any weeding, with hoe or not, is difficult."
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

"How many 84 year old aunts have a beautiful vegetable garden that they work entirely themselves?
Not too many."

the real question should be- how many that DO have the ability have honestly tried? the answer would still be the same- not too many.

[pipi_k]

9. Thank you...

I'm 56 and have been dealing with mobility issues for a long time. When I first moved to my present home 13 years ago I had some very ambitious ideas about gardens and things.

I live in an area where the soil is mostly clay. Totally unsuitable for gardening. It's also riddled with some sizable stones and rocks that are large enough to require two or more people to pull them out.

If I want to have gardens, I would need to have raised beds and truck in appropriate soil.

All that costs money...a lot, if I want the gardens to produce what we would need here.

Even if I could afford that, there's still the matter of how to properly care for the gardens with bad knees and arthritic hands and shoulders.

Anyway, what you said is true...there are "younger" people who can't, and "older" people who can, and everything in between...

[wryter2000]

22. I'm with you

I've had both knees replaced and now have back problems that severly limit my mobility. Last year, I managed a few of these

www.earthbox.com

I hope I can again this year. If you have limited $$$, probably this isn't for you, but if you have a few extra bucks, it's worth a try to get one.

:hi:

[marions ghost]

12. OK going back to the woman's situation...

EVEN IF she IS able to grow vegetables every year, can she still survive very well in America?

That's the real question.

With NO medical benefits, a depleted 401K, being older with few job prospects, living in a semi-rural area and skyrocketing costs of everything--what can she do? Even if she has transferable skills, the picture is not good.

Can this woman survive (despite her bountiful vegetable garden)? If so, HOW?

[lukasahero]

27. I feel for her but what makes you think she's different than the thousands

of others who are in the same situation? My neighbor got laid off almost a year ago. He's over 50 and an IT guy. Wife is sick, kid's in college. There are thousands and thousands of these stories. What are people supposed to do?

That's why we have unemployment benefits, it's why we have welfare, it's why those of us who have more need to do what we can to help those who have less. And in some situations, yes, those who find themselves in these positions have to look into changing jobs even if that means learning something new. Of course, with fewer jobs available, they (we) may have to look into doing things to support ourselves - like growing some of our own food.

I don't have the answers but I know that the one person you mention is no different than the thousands already out there. I am firmly convinced that the economy is going to get substantially worse before it gets better. We had all better get ourselves prepared the best we can. Prepared not just to survive ourselves but to help those who either didn't or couldn't prepare themselves.

[marions ghost]

34. well a question I have

is whether people are prepared "to help those who didn't or couldn't prepare..." -- or will they just tell people to "go plant a garden." Sure, growing your own food is an admirable project, but does it even begin to address the question of widespread malnutrition coupled with stressed social safety nets?

At least you mention the possibility of people helping each other if & when things get substantially worse. I'm not sure we can even imagine what that would mean. We are not used to thinking that way.

So what is your neighbor doing? How is he surviving? How does he survive mentally--just as important as physically?

[lukasahero]

39. I hope we can imagine it

I hope at least families will help each other if not neighbors and friends.

I don't know how he's keeping his spirits up. I know he was up for a job and both my husband and I noted our fears for him getting depressed if it falls through. They've been 'lucky' in that they were in pretty good shape before the lay-off, had some money set aside. Pretty sure their savings have been depleted and I know their 401k bit the dust.

He's just networking everywhere - and we're helping to the degree we can (LinkedIn is a great resource) but no one's hiring. They've been doing some e-business but it's not enough. I'm co-signing a loan for his daughter so she can help pay for her last 1.5 year in school - that should give them a little breathing room.

Honestly, I don't know what we do. I worry about my own immediate family, I worry about my sister and her family, my mom and dad, my friends and neighbors. And even if we do find ourselves in a position to help, how long and how many can we help?

I know DU likes to laugh at people like me but I'm worried. I don't think this country is ready for what's coming.

[marions ghost]

40. that is so nice of you

to co-sign the loan for the daughter! Not everybody would do that :thumbsup: I think that is the way we are going to have to be thinking...when there's a family we know literally going over the falls through no fault of their own, we do whatever we can. My resources are not much, but I would do the same. And if financial help isn't possible, moral support can be valuable.

I worry about the same thing though--"how long and how many can we help?' That's the question all who have jobs and resources have to ask themselves. I'm in agreement with you that I think we are totally unprepared for what may be coming. How long can we stand by and watch the decline of people we know, even as we worry about the same thing happening to us?

[TwilightGardener]

28. This post took a bizarre tangent with the "survival garden" comment, and never

really got back on track.

[marions ghost]

30. what's the track it should be on?

Victory gardens seem to be on people's minds, maybe the escalating cost of food...

So what else can be said about this hypothetical woman's situation, because we don't know her...

[TwilightGardener]

32. LOL! I admit I don't know. I just know that "gardening" probably isn't

the answer to her woes, any more than the suggestion to clip coupons or collect aluminum cans would be. I just found it funny that the whole thread turned into an argument about green thumbs and bad knees, I guess.

[TwilightGardener]

33. Besides, if rural Iowa is anything like rural Nebraska, she's already

a veggie gardener. In my town, everyone has a vegetable garden--old, young, single, families--almost every yard has a plot. You can't give tomatoes away here in August. Rural people are already frugal and practical. Poor lady needs a job.

[marions ghost]

36. That's a good point...

rural people generally do already grow vegetables. So what are the urbanites supposed to do? Better get the "skyfarms" going, like in Singapore...http://www.greenroofs.com/archives/gf_nov-dec05.htm Sooner rather than later...

Right, in this economy--not having a job or income will severely affect you in myriad ways. And there are few resources for help.

[marions ghost]

35. well but

the thread does reflect a general reality about how people see themselves and others as things get worse. Sometimes people argue over minutiae to hide their real distress.