Another reason we don't have electric cars

[defendandprotect]

http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/551.html

[TheWraith]

1. Look, the caption isn't true.

One, no electric car travels 300 miles on a charge. Period. The new high end ones do 200 to 250 miles, the older ones like GM's EV1 only did about 75 miles, going up to 100 with the revised models that used better batteries. And no battery that large can be charged in one hour. More like 8 hours.

The reason we didn't have electric cars sooner comes down to batteries, batteries, batteries. If the existing batteries could actually do those two things, nobody would buy anything else.

[TreasonousBastard]

2. And that maybe 75% of the world's supply of lithium...

is in Bolivia.

Bolivia, btw, doesn't like us very much, and dislikes Europe and Japan only slightly less.

(Most of the electric car propaganda is just ill-informed bullshit.)

[TheWraith]

9. Really, I think that's not much of a thing.

If Bolivia wants to have an economy, they'll sell to whoever's buying.

[TreasonousBastard]

11. Eventually, but yesterday's NY Times...

said they're pretty screwed up down there so far. They won't let anyone build mining or refining operations and their own plans for building aren't working out very well.

So, for the time being, the stuff's just sitting in the ground.

On edit...

Just why do we want to get involved with yet another technology where the prime resource is in a foreign country? And a troubled one, at that.

[Greyhound]

3. They would nearly kill one of the prime revenue streams for the auto industry.

They require almost no maintenance and reliability is vastly superior to the stinkpots we all drive now.
:kick: & R

[MindPilot]

20. Today's car compared to 40 years ago are almost zero maintenance

I don't see the aftermarket industry folding in the wake of an electric car takeover. Electric cars would still need all those other things like tires, brakes, air fresheners and wiper blades. People are still going to want custom wheels and they are still going to crash into each other.

And that $50 bucks you aren't spending on an oil change every few months? Better save it because at some point you are going to have buy a battery that requires a forklift to install.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big electric car fan, I just don't believe that if you are in the car repair business, electrics are going to put you out of work.

Electrics as a new technology could be more troublesome than gas cars, driving innovation in the performance and conversion ares of the aftermarket industry.

[Greyhound]

29. That's true, but electric autos still require far less and a battery pack

can expect to last 5 - 10 years before requiring replacement with today's technology. People will still crash them and break them but there will simply be much less need for service centers and the dealerships would probably be hurt the worst.

[arcadian]

4. In the movie "Who Killed the Electric Car?" did anybody else find it odd...

That the woman who was the main activist, don't recall her name, but did anybody else find it odd that she was now in cahoots with James Woolsey? That kind of threw me at the end.

[readmoreoften]

18. Yes. I was weirded out too.

[Raskolnik]

5. Laughably inaccurate stuff like this doesn't help anyone. n/t

[defendandprotect]

6. More than 4,000 electric cars were on the highways in CA during the

late 1990's and early 2000's --

Everyone loved the cars and wanted to purchase them ---

They were crushed.

The enthusiasm here for denying the reality of the electric car --

and the many mechanical conveniences of those cars -- seems to be

centered in something other than common sense.

For those truly interested in the story behind these cars . . .

See: "Who Killed The Electric Car?" -- and the movie is probably at your library.

Find out for yourself.

[defendandprotect]

7. Bush's EPA Kills Washington's Clean Car Legislation

Majority Rules Blog: Bush's EPA Kills Washington's Clean Car Legislation
... of states under the Federal Clean Air Act to set higher ... California and other states will go to Federal Court to challenge and overturn Bush's decision. ...majorityrules.org/blog/.../bushs-epa-kills-washingtons-clean-car.html - Cached
http://www.majorityrules.org/blog/2007/12/bushs-epa-kills-washingtons-clean-car.html

EPA Chief Blasted for Denying California Clean Car Waiver
... introducing legislation to overturn EPA's wrongheaded decision and allow states ... California also will not bear the burden of implementing the Clean Car ...www.ens-newswire.com/ens/jan2008/2008-01-24-095.asp - Cached

and on and on . . .

Obviously, the right-wing does not want electric cars and that has nothing to do with

anything but interest in keeping gas-guzzlers on our roads and denying the reality of

Global Warming and the overall health risks to us all -- especially children -- from this

petro pollution.

[TheWraith]

8. The problem is that "Who Killed the Electric Car" isn't very accurate.

Anyone who listens to me knows that I'm a HUGE advocate for electric cars. But the conspiracy theories around them are mostly based on air. The EV1 program was absurdly expensive for GM, and with cheap as dirt gas at the time there was little reason for continuing it after California amended the zero-emissions standard that had required it in the first place.

Though there were plenty of enthusiasts for the EV1, most prospective users passed it by after they found out the limitations. Lead-acid batteries, and even the later NiMH versions, just don't pack enough power for the weight. Lithium ion, particularly the newer silicate-anode Li Ions that are coming, are far superior to anything that we've had before.

[defendandprotect]

10. That's BS . . .

and total distortion of the reality of the EV1.

The oil industry is the destroyer --- from wars, to gas-guzzlers, to mass-transportation.

We should NATIONALIZE the oil industry -- probably the most destructive force our nation

and the planet has ever experienced.

Everyone was delighted with these cars --

Not only did everyone who had one want to buy them, many were trying to

get on waiting lists to get the cars.

The EV1 could be run very cheaply -- and the proof of the poor decision making on

electric cars is that the auto makers are going down and need bailouts.

They been allied with the oil industry from the beginning -- and we desperately

need to get rid of the gas-guzzler. This isn't only about better cars, it's also

about responding sensibly to Global Warming and trying to save the planet!

Not to mention the health of our children and our own health.

Of course the cars could have been sold -- everyone who had one wanted to buy it.

It's insane to suggest that they destroyed them to save themselves!!!

Hardly, they destroyed them to save the oil industry.

[TreasonousBastard]

12. Now, that's BS. Even the movie...

admitted there were a lot of reasons why electric cars didn't take off and didn't put the blame squarely on GM or the oil companies. What it didn't do very much of is explain how useless an electric car of the time would be in a place where it snows. Or rains a lot. Or has short daylight hours just when it's getting cold out. (In case this goes over the heads of the True Believers-- heat, headlights, and winshield wipers take a lot of juice, and batteries lose power when it gets cold-- leaving an electric car with lead-acid batteries just enough juice to get to the end of the driveway.)

The question I keep asking, and getting no answers to, is what hold the oil industry has on the auto industry? What possible benefit is it to giant industrial complexes like Daimler-Benz, GM, Mitusbishi, and Toyota to to kowtow to the demands of the oil barons?

[defendandprotect]

14. As I suggested earlier . . .

you're trying to create questions where there is only certainty re Electric Cars ---

and DU'ers should research this for themselves --- and I'd suggest they watch

the movie -- "Who Killed The Electric Car?" and decide for themselves.

Additionally, your inane suppositions are not something that anyone in CA certainly

dealt with in the many years that the cars were on the road.


And, if your undisguised disingenuousness weren't sufficient, certainly this bit

of born yesterday question . . .

The question I keep asking, and getting no answers to, is what hold the oil industry has on the auto industry? What possible benefit is it to giant industrial complexes like Daimler-Benz, GM, Mitusbishi, and Toyota to to kowtow to the demands of the oil barons?

warrants your being on "ignore."

bye . . .

[TreasonousBastard]

16. With any luck, by next month...

all the assholes around here will have me on ignore.

[HEyHEY]

21. He did do the research, and seems much more credible

[TheWraith]

19. No.

"Everyone was delighted with these cars --

Not only did everyone who had one want to buy them, many were trying to

get on waiting lists to get the cars."

No. The movie makes it out like 5,000 people were waiting to buy, but in actuality that's how many people expressed interest. Upwards of 70% walked away when they found out that the cars were limited to 75 miles a day, and even that only if you could live without air conditioning or headlights.

"The EV1 could be run very cheaply"

Nobody denies it was cheap to operate. It was also, however, insanely expensive to build, around $80,000 per car. That's comparable to what a more modern electric sportscar like the Tesla Roadster or Fisker Karma costs to build.

"and the proof of the poor decision making on electric cars is that the auto makers are going down and need bailouts."

Actually, that's proof that they invested in huge SUVs when all the public would buy was huge SUVs, then the price of oil spiked. It's not like the public stopped buying cars because they couldn't get electric ones.

"Of course the cars could have been sold -- everyone who had one wanted to buy it."

I don't think you speak for everyone who had one. In any event, for GM it would be a simple calculus. If they sold the cars they would be legally obligated to provide service and support for them for years afterward, including spare parts which would have to be custom made. In other words, they could either not renew the leases, and scrap the cars, or they could sell them at a huge loss and continue to lose money in the millions of dollars for years on end. That's a no brainer. GM's head honcho admitted not too long ago that they made a mistake not continuing to look at hybrids and particularly plug-in hybrids after they dropped the EV1, and he's right. But from a financial perspective there was nothing but downside for them in selling the EV1s.

[defendandprotect]

23. Interesting to see how many here are threatened by electric cars . . .

and one of you works for GM -- !!!

Let's answer this question first ... are we bailing out capitalism ---

a ridiculous "King-of-the Hill System" -- or not?

Does anyone hear any capitalist saying no to WELFARE for themselves? No.

$8.5 TRILLION is going to failed/corrupt capitalism.

And the auto industry is no less a failure and no less corrupt--!!



Again -- everyone interested should see the movie for themselves ---

"Who Killed The Electric Car?" -- probably at your library.

Meanwhile, not only were thousands of people trying to get on the lists for

the electric cars --- they were blocked --- and the lists shut down!

These cars were also on the roads in California for years --- with air conditioning--!!!

And with QUIET ---


And EVERYONE of the thousands whose cars were being called back and CRUSHED all spoke

for themselves in the movie.


What's even more interesting is the question of whether those attacking electric cars

and distorting information about them are being paid to post here?

A ridiculous question, of course -- !!! How could that possibly happen at DU?

Nah ....

[TheWraith]

27. Yeah, and we're all with the terrorists too!

Careful you don't get hayfever from that ridiculous strawman.

If you knew my rantings in the Environment/Energy forum, you'd be aware that I'm a HUGE advocate of electric vehicles. But the fact is that the death of the EV1 didn't need an evil conspiracy--any basic business student could have told you that GM would put a bullet in it the minute the California laws were amended. Insanely expensive with limited demand equals cancelled product. Again, "Who Killed the Electric Car" distorts basic facts about the levels of demand for the EV1. There weren't thousands of buyers, and for that matter, there weren't "thousands" of EV1s. Only 1,100 were ever made.

The improvements in battery technology today, and the ones we're going to be seeing over the next 3 years or so, make the EV1 look like a glorified golf cart, and an expensive one at that. For roughly the same manufacturing cost as the EV1 had, compare modern vehicles like the Tesla Roadster (available now) and Fisker Karma (later this year). Those are high-end sportscars--the former with a 225 mile range, the latter with an onboard generator--for the same cost. Next year Chevy's got the Volt slated, which should run half the production cost of the EV1. Electric vehicles are coming despite the conspiracy theories.

[defendandprotect]

28. We can no longer think in terms of gas-guzzlers . . .we're losing the planet ---

if it isn't already too late.

There's another movie you should rent from your library --

"The end of Suburbia" ---

which makes clear the basis for the case for wars --- the Carter Doctrine.

We've known about Global Warming since '57 at the latest.

The greed of the oil industry -- in overthrowing the original electric car and mass

transportation, and in its corrupt influence on government and auto producers --

has provided only aggressive solutions that defy common sense.

There was no need to travel on this insane path to war -- nor to despoil Nature.

Government should nationalize the oil industry now and assign workers to producing

electric cars NOW.

We can subsidize both the manufacture and the purchase of these cars --- and get the

gas-guzzlers off our roads in just a few years.

[SergeyDovlatov]

13. I saw a thread on this some time ago. Here is a different perspective on EV1:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.fandom/browse_frm/thread/7f611e8a73b2fafc/01b5d27d94622692?lnk=st&q=%22In+the+90%27s+GM+produced+a+line+of+electric+cars+called+the+EV1%22&rnum=1&hl=en#01b5d27d94622692

Some facts about the EV1, the research and development of which
was produced by _my_ division of GM, Hughes Electronics:

General Motors lost two billion dollars on the project, and lost
money on every single EV1 produced. The leases didn't even cover
the costs of servicing them.


The range of 130 miles is bogus. None of them ever achieved that
under normal driving conditions. Running the air conditioning or
heater could halve that range. Even running the headlights
reduced it by 10%.


Minimum recharge time was two hours using special charging
stations that except for fleet use didn't exist. The effective
recharge time, using the equipment that could be installed in a
lessee's garage, was eight hours. Home electrical systems simply
couldn't handle the necessary current draw for "fast" charging.


NiMH batteries that had lasted up to three years in testing were
failing after six months in service. There was no way to keep
them from overheating without doubling the size of the battery
pack. Lead-acid batteries were superior to NiMH in actual daily
use.


Battery replacement was a task performed by skilled technicians
taking the sorts of precautions that electricians do when working
on live circuits, because that's what they were doing -- working
on live circuits. You cannot turn batteries "off." This is the
reason the vehicles were leased, rather than sold. As long as
the terms of the lease prohibited maintenance by other than a
Hughes technician, GM's liability in the event of a screw-up was
much reduced. Technicians can encounter high voltages in hybrid
vehicles. In the EV1, there were _really_ high voltages present.

Lessees were complaining that their electric bills had increased
to the point that they'd rather be using gasoline.

One of the guys I worked with transferred to the EV1 program
after what was by then a division of Raytheon lost the C-130 ATS
contract. He's now back working for us. He has some interesting
stories, none of them good, though he did like the
company-subsidized apartment in Malibu. He said the car was a
dream to drive, if you didn't mind being stranded between
Bakersfield and Barstow on a hot July afternoon when a battery
blew up from the combined heat of the day and the current draw.

[defendandprotect]

15. More nonsense -- this time from a GM employee . . !

Good planning by GM -- stick with gas-guzzlers and depend on taxpayers to bail you out!!

[ColbertWatcher]

17. California's "Enron" crisis? n/t

[defendandprotect]

24. Enron was a conspiracy leading to ...

other conspiracies . . . all tied up at the WTC 7 . . . .

where many SEC records of criminal cases --- including Enron --- were stored.

Though it was convenient that Ken Lay died saving us all tons of money in prosecuting him!!!

Enron not only bankrupted citizens, it highly impacted states like California which lost

billions --- don't recall the exact figure but Sen. Barbara Boxer was also a powerhouse in

bringing that to the attention of the public in hearings/Congress!!!

Go Barbara!!!

USATODAY.com - Enron's legacy: Scandal marked turning point
... out hundreds of millions of dollars to comply with post-Enron rules, which ... oversaw $6.3 billion in settlements between California, Enron and other energy ...usatoday.com/.../industries/energy/2006-01-29-enron-legacy-usat_x.htm - 62k - Cached

[cherokeeprogressive]

22. Do you think things like this have anything to do with it?

[robcon]

25. The OP is bullshit.

When batteries are improved, we'll have electric cars. If they are not (and no one has the magic bullet for making batteries better) we won't.

[defendandprotect]

26. As the movie clearly shows . . .

the batteries are being improved --

And, let's keep in mind that electric cars -- and research into improving

their operation have all been short-changed while we clogged our lungs with

gas-guzzlers and made our kids sick with asthma . . . to name just one problem.

Oh, yeah -- we're about to lose the planet to Global Warming!

Capitalism and private ownership of natural resources and information are killing us ---

wake up!