Now, WAIT a minute. Army suicides higher than casualties in BOTH wars, and they're doing WHAT??

[sohndrsmith]

(my apologies if there are small inaccuracies in this post - I have limited time and will correct things shortly, but what accuracies there may be do not alter the integrity of story itself. Thanks)

The Chairman of Votevets.org was just on msnbc with Nora O'Donnell - the story being that in the month of November (I think that's what she said) the Army reported 25 suicides among soldiers, more than casualties in the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq combined.

This is horrific, but it gets worse.

O'Donnell asked Salzman/Salz (sp?), from VoteVets - what does this say about the condition and health of the troops? He said that there's no surprise here, a lot of the soldiers are being treated with anti-depressants and sent back into battle, not because it's the appropriate treatment, but because it's cheaper. If they diagnosed these soldiers with PTSD, they'd qualify for long term benefits, etc., so they just give them the anti-depressants, say they'll be fine and send 'em back. We've heard about the reluctance to recognize PTSD before...

This is horrific too, but it gets even worse...

Now, HOLD ON. Most of these troops are YOUNG ADULTS. Many (if not most) anti-depressants carry warnings that there is an increased risk of suicidal thoughts if these medications are given to teens and YOUNG ADULTS. This side effect is very real, something I have witnessed personally.

ARE THEY NUTS???

Sorry for the all caps. I'm so mad I'm shaking right now. These young men and women shouldn't be given anti-depressants that are proven to increase suicidal ideation if they are already suffering and THEN placed back in a war zone unless they are so closely monitored - even then - I don't see how this is not so extremely reckless and inhuman.

Ugh. I'm sickened that these troops can't be treated respectfully and properly and ethically when they're risking their lives, and DYING for us and this country.

Damn it all.

[ColbertWatcher]

1. ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4987567&mesg_id=4987567

It is infuriating.

So many people have tried to warn us or at least keep us informed (like unhappycamper) but thee was a lady who had eight kids and so many other distractions it's hard to stay focused.

[AndyA]

2. Sadly, I'm not surprised.

If they could find a way to get soldiers back on duty with missing limbs, they'd do that too. :(

Pathetic, and criminal.

[Uncle Joe]

3. PBS telecast the Mark Twain award to George Carlin last night.

One of the clips showed Carlin talking about how our language has been softened to put the people to sleep just over the past century.

When World War I veterans suffered nervous breakdowns because of the psychological scars of combat, they referred to it as "Shell Shock" but those words are hard like a bullet.

In World War II, they changed it to "Combat Fatigue", much softer and the name of the condition changed to four syllables.

In Vietnam, they changed it to "Post Traumatic Stress Disorder," evolving to seven syllables, all for the same condition, but by changing the name as if it were something new, they could avoid treating the troops for this long established combat malady.

I believe George Carlin hit upon a subtle truth regarding the cynical, manipulation of our language by the powers that be in order to brain wash or manipulate the American People as a whole and in this case specifically abuse the trust given by our men and women when they put their lives at risk to defend our nation.

Thanks for the thread, sohndrsmith.

[glowing]

4. Not only that, they are also given scrips for things like Ambien to help

them "sleep" thru the night... Ambien has a warning not to drive, operate equipment, and acting as if awake when really asleep. These guys are in the field and may have to act at a moments notice... Or they may "get up" in a dream state and start shooting someone around them. Ambien is prescribed a lot according to my brother in law who just got back this past October.

[alstephenson]

5. I've also heard that they prescribe Chantix to the soldiers to help them quit smoking:

CHANTIX® (varenicline) & CASES OF SUICIDE / ATTEMPTED SUICIDE

Chantix® (varenicline) is an anti-smoking drug that has been linked to cases of suicide, suicidal thoughts, and violent behavior. In November, 2007, the FDA announced the results of its preliminary assessment of Chantix® (varenicline) noting the association cases of suicide and attempted suicide «within days to weeks of initiating Chantix treatment.» Many of the cases were reported for patients without any prior history of psychiatric illness. Government scientists are conducting further investigating into the drug and, specifically, the reports of suicide and suicidal ideation.

[Taverner]

6. Antidepressants do work

Problem is what may work on Peter may not work on Paul, and vice versa

[EFerrari]

8. The problem is that these drugs are not monitored properly by prescribing docs.

You can't just prescribe these things and assume everything will work out until you hear differently. :(

[sohndrsmith]

10. I'm not saying they don't. I know they do. But they do affect this age group

differently, and with a higher rate of adverse effects - particularly risk of suicide.

I'm not saying that these medicines aren't enormously helpful for some, I'm sure they are.

But given their inordinately violent, traumatic environment of being in active combat in an active war, (or having been), and being in the age group at high risk - I don't understand how they could monitor these young men and women closely enough AND expect them to be in combat at the same time. Keeping them OUT of combat would be the first step if they're being given these meds - and monitored very closely.

I am not condemning anti-depressants or medication or anything in general. It's the mix of the specific risk and environment that I'm having a serious problem with.

[Taverner]

13. Part of the problems is that their brains haven't fully developed

So at 17 what may work might not work at 18

Basically the choice to use meds is not a black and white issue - and therein lies the problem

[sohndrsmith]

16. Yep. Brains are still developing. Even more reason for increased caution.

Coupled with the warnings of suicidality in young adults, I don't see how they justify the benefits/risks ratio given these circumstances - with combat tossed in for good measure.

[Taverner]

19. What if its severe, dibilatating depression? The kind that makes one suicidal

Sometimes you have no choice but to medicate

[sohndrsmith]

7. It's all alarming. These drugs CREATE thoughts of suicide in young

adults - that is the icing on the cake here and why I'm even more mad.

This really happens. There is a severe warning on these meds, for this age group. I don't see how any physician could prescribe them AND keep them in combat. If that's not malpractice, I don't know what is. Yes I do - but I won't say it out loud.

I'm not saying these soldiers should not be given appropriate treatment and/or medication for anything that presents as a problem for them - medical, psychological, whatever (I believe that mind and body function separately - it's just convenient for med/psych professionals to keep it that way because they can't explain it in a tangible way. But I digress).

But it is just beyond belief that the Army docs would think giving these young adults medicine that is extremely dangerous for them. Specifically. It's been thoroughly studied and the manufacturers of these drugs were ordered to put a warning label on all of them that was primarily about the risk to teenagers. THEN there was a second warning that included young adults.

I don't doubt that suicides are on the rise in our troops, and that doesn't mean I'm okay with it by any stretch. They are over-worked, do way too many tours, they're treated like disposable livestock almost in this regard and it makes me sick. They see traumatic things on a daily basis and go through things that even the strongest of us would not come through unaffected. I'm sure that war itself leads to some suicides - the horror is too severe. It's awful.

BUT....

Given that, what would prompt any doctor to THEN give them medicine that has been documented and proven to increase the risk of suicidal thoughts???? On top of what is already a really unconscionable use of these soldiers doing twice - three times as many tours than they should... fighting the most perplexing "enemy"...

That's what is different about this and the original story of the suicide numbers. The fact that they're giving them potentially suicide-provoking medication - a fact that has been proven - and shoving them back out there.

[Mari333]

9. its a quick fix way to deal with ptsd

even GP's can hand out antidepressants like candy. PTSD needs much more intensive work then a couple of pills.
I dont think anyone but a qualified psychiatrist should give out antidepressant meds..but the Big Pharma companies are making a mint off this shit.
and PTSD is an entirely different concern then just depression..its huge trauma..
i.e., we are still living in the dark ages .

[sohndrsmith]

15. NO, it's not. It's wrong. It's like giving blood pressure medication to someone

who has a broken leg. (well, that's not the greatest example). It's not a quick fix, it's inappropriate treatment and inappropriate diagnosis - when you give people drugs for a certain disorder that they don't have - or doesn't treat the problem they do have...

is just wrong.

PTSD is likely treated in part with anti-depressant medication, I don't know. I would think anti-anxiety meds might be the first course of action, and intensive CBT.

PTSD is serious and may include but isn't the same as - depression.

[Hydra]

11. Once you sign on the dotted line

You're expendable. They don't want troops getting out of the service and getting disability and treatment- it costs money and makes them look bad, especially when the troops in question have witnessed illegal actions and could speak of them. Better to drug them up and throw them back in the meatgrinder...after all, there will always be poor people to "volunteer" if the Rupubs continue to fuck the economy up.

[sohndrsmith]

12. excerpts from FDA ruling

May 2, 2007:

The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) today proposed that makers of all antidepressant medications update the existing black box warning on their products' labeling to include warnings about increased risks of suicidal thinking and behavior, known as suicidality, in young adults ages 18 to 24 during initial treatment (generally the first one to two months).

Available data are not sufficient to exclude any single medication from the increased risk of suicidality.

The requested labeling changes apply to the entire category of antidepressants.

Products involved in today’s action include: Anafranil (clomipramine), Asendin (amoxapine), Aventyl (nortriptyline), Celexa (citalopram hydrobromide), Cymbalta (duloxetine), Desyrel (trazodone HCl), Elavil (amitriptyline), Effexor (venlafaxine HCl), Emsam (selegiline), Etrafon (perphenazine/amitriptyline), fluvoxamine maleate, Lexapro (escitalopram hydrobromide), Limbitrol (chlordiazepoxide/amitriptyline), Ludiomil (maprotiline), Marplan (isocarboxazid), Nardil (phenelzine sulfate), nefazodone HCl, Norpramin (desipramine HCl), Pamelor (nortriptyline), Parnate (tranylcypromine sulfate), Paxil (paroxetine HCl), Pexeva (paroxetine mesylate), Prozac (fluoxetine HCl), Remeron (mirtazapine), Sarafem (fluoxetine HCl), Seroquel (quetiapine), Sinequan (doxepin), Surmontil (trimipramine), Symbyax (olanzapine/fluoxetine), Tofranil (imipramine), Tofranil-PM (imipramine pamoate), Triavil (perphenazine/amitriptyline), Vivactil (protriptyline), Wellbutrin (bupropion HCl), Zoloft (sertraline HCl), and Zyban (bupropion HCl)

[aldo]

14. Treason, plain and simple

The "Support the Troops" crowd do anything but. The treatment of the troops discussed here, exposing them to DU munitions, the VA treatment of vets amounts to nothing short of treason.

[unblock]

17. anti-depressants should only be used in combination with therapy, at least at first

typically suicide occurs in the first few weeks or months after starting anti-depressants, when the sense of powerlessness goes away before the sense of despair.

but i can't imagine soldiers are getting decent therapy, if any, in the field. moreover, reality would tend to overwhelm therapy, i would think.

[flpab]

18. suicide

I just sent this post to my cousin who is a Chaplain in the Army. Since coming back from Iraq all he does is suicide prevention and family counseling. I asked him what we can do. I know he has been fighting his own battles and he wants out but to do something with the VA to help. I do hope he responds.