To those complaining about the President taking AF 1 on a short flight

[nadinbrzezinski]

does not take long to use the google

The last flight by shit for brains on AF 1 was to Norfolk VA, for the commissioning ceremony of the USS George H W Bush... (Nimitz Class Carrier)

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/01/10/bush-makes-final-flight-on-air-force-one/

Yes, it is security that drives this

I WISH we lived in a world where the President of the US did NOT need to drive on an armored vehicle, (rather be driven around) or take a flight. yes a short hop, on a highly equipped and sophisticated plane that runs millions to operate over the course of any presidency.

There are things that we have to be far more worried about than a President taking a plane due to security concerns... but those are real.

Oh and the environment could benefit, but the threats to these men... are real. And I fear the threats to this particular one are higher due to the color of his skin. Unfortunately we still live in that world as well

[Hanse]

1. I suggest the whiners take a short plane ride to kiss my ass.

I can't imagine these people actually expect themselves to be taken seriously.

[JeffreyWilliamson]

64. My hat's off to you sir for a memorable quote...

"I suggest the whiners take a short plane ride to kiss my ass."

[Tangerine LaBamba]

145. Did I mention

that I love you?

Because I do. For all your posts here.

Kiss me. Quick.

[Captain Hilts]

2. Where can you land a 747 close to Williamsburg other than the Norfolk Navy Base?

AF1 has practiced touch and goes there.

I guess Langely AFB could do it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. I've got no clue... but the crew of AF1 is the best the AF has to offer

[Captain Hilts]

9. Yeah. I just don't know the logistics and would like to know. Interesting!

[Why Syzygy]

20. I saw it at McCarren (Las Vegas) airport

When Bill was there getting his hair cut!

[Subdivisions]

8. The President landed at Newport News-Williamsburg Airport in

Newport News, Virginia.

I was there when AF1 landed this evening =)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4990806&mesg_id=4990806

[Captain Hilts]

11. Pat Henry "International?" How 'bout that!

Cool you were there!

[Subdivisions]

16. Yes, the former Patrick Henry Airport. Man, that was a long time ago!

It was great being there to see AF1. My first time!

[Captain Hilts]

206. A friend of mine at NOB would watch them practice touch and goes on the runway there. nt

[Blue_Tires]

105. hey!...i didn't know you were local!

[Captain Hilts]

205. I heart jet noise! My Maternal Unit is near the Amphib Base. nt

[MiniMe]

211. Newport News. It is right beside Richmond

I-95 and I-64 are parking lots. It would be crazy for him to drive.

[Captain Hilts]

213. I've been driving that stretch for 20years. I would never suggest he drive it. nt

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. The show of the flag is an added bonus

Look I worked a couple VIP details, one purely by accident

No, not in the US... but I will say this only... they are a real pain in the rear

Show of flag is added bonus

[Why Syzygy]

35. A "show of political force" . is good enough for me! huuuhaa

[Ikonoklast]

7. He's also Bruce Wayne.

But don't tell anyone, that's hush-hush, y'know.


:hide:

[TahitiNut]

17. He's not Peter Parker???

Then why does he eat flies?

:hide:

[Ikonoklast]

34. No windshield on the plane he pilots.

It's made out of sofa cushions.

Vrooooooommmmm!!! I'm a Pilot!!!!

[TahitiNut]

40. The unmistakable sign of a happy biplane pilot ...

bugs on his teeth.

:rofl:

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. You two are bad

to bed with no dinner

:-)

[Ikonoklast]

61. Hey, I didn't start it!

Party pooper.

:party: :woohoo: :toast:

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. surly motherly look, crossed arms, you know the look

:-)

Fer real I have had to do this with the nephews, the hard part is NOT cracking in front of them....

After all mom did this with sister and I

[Ikonoklast]

70. Meh. Look at me, I'm shaking.

Moms are soooo easy to get around.

I'm reading comic books under the covers with a flashlight right now, and you don't even know it!

Phhhhhttt!

:P

[nadinbrzezinski]

72. But aunties are harder to manipulate

trust me, aforementioned nephews... I KNOW

the young'ins know that they can negotiate with mom

Yep, she's used word in front of kids. Both kids know the meaning of the world. they can get away with it...

:-)

I love DU, there are times I need this levity

Thanks

[Uzybone]

10. LOL

How does one argue with such genius.

[dysfunctional press]

13. if you're like me, you don't...

you just stand in awe.

:rofl:

[Parker CA]

Obviously. I know obvious when I see it. I double-majored and minored in obviousity. n/t.

[jwirr]

6. I would guess it is easier to arrange secret service protection on a

flight instead of a motorcade.

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. Yeah... it is

[MiniMe]

185. Plus, you have no idea what a motorcade to Williamsburg would do to

rush hour traffic. Shutting down I95 would NOT be well received.

[LibDemAlways]

210. That's really the crux of it. When Clinton was still

President-elect he was in a limo travelling between LA and Santa Barbara on Highway 101. I happened to be heading for a doctor's appointment and was stopped by police at the freeway on-ramp and had to wait a few minutes for the motorcade to pass by. Each and every on-ramp had to be closed in anticipation of the limo passing by and here in So Cal they are spaced 1 mile apart, so that, alone, required a herculean effort.

It's just not practical for the POTUS to take anything but short local car trips.

[TahitiNut]

14. I recall seeing AF1 over Silicon Valley a few times during Clinton/Gore ...

... while Chelsea was at Stanford. He'd come into Moffat. Remarkable plane. Really.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

15. Consider the alternative

Driving from DC to Williamsburg is about 150 miles, and, presuming there's no back-up on I-95S (there is always a back-up), it will only take about 3-1/2 hours.

Then, the trip back. Another 3-1/2 hours.

Good. The President of the United States in traffic for 7 hours.

It's not like he has anything better to do.

So, is this the best these rightwingnut fucktards can come up with?

How does this compare the the vacation time Fuckface took? All those helicopters to Camp David, and AF1 to Crawford, TX.

Why didn't he drive? I mean, isn't the trip part of the vacation?

Assholes. Their stupidity offends me.

[Brother Buzz]

21. Isn't 150 miles doable in a helicopter?

Seems Marine One with two escort helicopters would use less fuel than just launching a 747. :shrug:

[ferrous wheel]

24. We are not allowed to question Obama for doing what Bush would be excoriated for doing.

Didn't you get the memo?

[Hanse]

25. When did you ever excoriate Bush over taking Air Force One.

Link or gtfo.

[ferrous wheel]

27. I don't have links but I gave him major shit when he flew over NOLA after Katrina.

Are you really that obtuse???

[Brother Buzz]

28. Can Marine One fly 150 miles?

Is that to tough a question to answer? :shrug:

[Why Syzygy]

32. WE DONT FUGGING CARE!

He can take the PLANE. He's the PRESIDENT. Got a problem with that?

[ferrous wheel]

55. You're right. I remember when the Republicans said that very same thing.

Must be true.

[Why Syzygy]

71. wtf?

You're still here? You go ahead and agree with the republican'ts. I think they STINK!

edit: it's too bad you used that name up. Some long timer could have. It's cute.

[ferrous wheel]

80. I wish you luck with your stock in apostrophe manufacturers! Keep on using them,

pump it up! :rofl:

[jberryhill]

39. As safely as a fixed wing aircraft? NO, it can't

Next question?

[ferrous wheel]

52. Well, that certainly explains why they never fly it over populated areas.

:eyes: :shrug: :eyes:

[ddeclue]

84. that's as ridiculous as comparing the odds of winning the lottery with being hit by lightning.

BOTH Marine One AND Air Force One are ridiculously safe even compared to the commercial airlines which are ridiculously safe compared to driving to work every day in your car.

:eyes:

[ddeclue]

82. SH3 version = 540 nautical mile range, UH60 version=320 nautical mile range

yes it can easily fly that far.

[Hanse]

91. So I suppose they can carry as many passengers as a 747.

Because it's not like he just flew himself.

[ddeclue]

94. Do you also suppose that the US government only owns ONE helicopter?

and every body has to ride with Obama?

:eyes:

[nadinbrzezinski]

96. Tell me oh bright one, how vulnerable is one of these birds to

small arms fire? Why do you think they use MORE than one chopper when the President is or MIGHT be in the air?

Jeezus age... no, that didn't happen ONLY during 9.11

[ddeclue]

103. Really NOT very...

considering these helicopters have service ceilings over 10,000 feet, nothing that would be considered "small arms" would even reach high enough.

On the other hand if they chose to fly nap of the earth, you'd be surprised at just how hard it is to shoot at helicopters in this mode with any effectiveness.

:eyes:

[nadinbrzezinski]

107. Yeah I am sure

Why EXPERTS point to the issues presented by these birds safety wise.

Regardless of service ceiling

Oh and why they play the game of guess which bird is Marine One every time... when they fly around

[ddeclue]

115. Well you don't really know what you're talking about and I can't help you

if you want to believe what you want to believe.

Small arms fire really isn't effective aiming wise beyond a few hundred yards - especially against high speed highly manueverable targets in varying wind conditions and range wise is pretty much useless beyond a mile.

And if you are flying low to the ground (say at or under 500 feet AGL) and taking advantage of terrain features, you will be over and past any particular spot on the ground in a matter of seconds at 150 knots and almost impossible to track without highly sophisticated radar systems. So unless one of the bad guys happens to be the pilot and knows the route being taken there really isn't much "lying in wait" that is possible...

:eyes:

[nadinbrzezinski]

125. Actually I do, and so do experts at places like oh Janes

and other specialists

If you want to believe that all of this is for show, fine... by all means, believe whatever you want to believe

I have this from very good authority that there is a show aspect to this, and a VIP SAFETY COMPONENT to this.

Personally I don't want to be penny wise and pound foolish with the safety of the Chief Executive, REGARDLESS of who controls the White House

[ddeclue]

130. You really DON'T know what you're talking about.

And there's no need to fly a gigantic 747 for a 200 mile trip when they also have 757's, 737's, G-V's, and a G-IV at their disposal in addition to the helicopters.

Face it - it's for show nothing else.

If safety from attacks were the deciding factor then the SAFEST plane by far would be one of the G-V's, the plane is smaller and far more maneuverable, has a much better rate of climb, a 51,000 ft service ceiling (vs 45000 for the 747) much smaller landing and takeoff requirements and is all around a better choice than a giant 747.

Doug D.

[nadinbrzezinski]

138. So the TV program told you ALL there is to know about AF 1?

WOW, EVEN THE CLASSIFIED SHIT?

That I have no clue, suffice it to say that you should buy a clue as to what AF 1 is capable of doing... either of the birds usually flown for the use of the President or the VEEP

It is for show, but it is MORE than just show

[ddeclue]

143. No the TV show didn't tell me all that I need to know but I already know

a hell of a lot more about airplanes than 99.9% of the general public given that it is my professional training as a pilot and an engineer and I know a lot more in detail what a 747-200 can do than you can and also about what the other planes that the 89th AW has at its disposal than you do. In point of fact, the 747-200 is more vulnerable target than the G-V just based on rate of climb and service ceiling and sheer size and maneuverability basis.

It's for show so just get over yourself already.

[nadinbrzezinski]

151. So the regular off the line 747-200 comes off the factory floor

with means to defend itself from ground to air missiles, both shoulder launched and SAM SITES? WOW

And they also come STANDARD with missile defense systems from Air to Air?

And they also come standard with Sat Coms, both in the clear and encrypted? How about the full medical bay (thank Kennedy for that)

And a slew of other standard things that only these planes have?

Oh and the standard, off the factory floor 747-200 can refuel in midair, from a C-5? Didn't know that.

Thanks for clarifying that for me

Next time I get on board one of them, I'll make sure to ask the crew to please show me the SatCom gear. I always wanted to see it. Oh and what I am talking about is very different than the radio gear on a standard jet

[ddeclue]

158. Every one of these VIP planes from the 89AW is equipped with these specialized features.

Sorry you're not smart enough to figure that out..

Oh and do you really think there's gonna be a lot of "mid-air refueling" on a 150 mile trip?

:crazy:

A CESSNA 172 has an unrefueled range of over 500 miles...

Thanks for showing what you DON'T know about aircraft some more..

:eyes:

[nadinbrzezinski]

163. I listed the specialized features, not that they are going to refuel in a 150 flight

and no, the med bay does not exist on the whole fleet, for example

Or the full commset

live in your fantasy

You think this is consumption and show, no, this is needed

Oh and it didn't start with shitstain, it started with Johnson

Jeesus, there are days.... now while you nitpick over this the RNC is back to the same games they practiced in 1933, with ALMOST the same talking points

As I said, I WISH we could do without the heavy security, alas we can't

[ddeclue]

168. They don't all have an operating room but in reality

they'd take the President to the nearest level one trauma center, not back to the plane for anything serious. And YES they DO all have the command and control and defensive measures available on them because YES they are intended for Presidential use by the taxpayer.

So you let me know when you're up to speed on the subject.

Doug D.

[nadinbrzezinski]

172. That's ok, believe whatever you want to believe

[A HERETIC I AM]

200. Not to be picky, but the Air Force does not use the C-5 as an aerial refueler.

They use the KC-135 (basically a Boeing 707 airframe) and the KC-10 (a DC-10 airframe) as tankers.

The C-5 is a cargo plane.

[Why Syzygy]

147. I'm okay with the show. About time we saw some show of the POWER inherent

in his position, Mr. President of the USofA, Sir! :patriot:

[ddeclue]

152. In SOME circumstances YES...I would agree with you...

Especially in international travel where he is the symbol of our country and it's prestige and power abroad.

I think it's ok on longer or overnight domestic trips also.

For shorter trips they have smaller planes that are equally capable of being command and control centers and actually have more utility for getting into smaller airports, etc. that I think we the taxpayers paid for and that the President ought to avail himself of.

These planes burn LESS gas, and cost less to operate and create less green house gas emissions all of which coincide with Obama's agendas in terms of getting us off of foreign oil, bringing Wall Street fat cats under control, and stopping global warming. He would set a good example by using the smallest plane that was reasonable for the mission instead of always going for the biggest one.

Doug D.

[Why Syzygy]

156. I soooo disagree.

He has his first piece of legislation languishing in the Senate. The media has been sliming him around.
If this gives him some creds, all the better.

[ddeclue]

160. Can't tell someone to do something that you yourself won't do...

those very same press slime you are talking about will be the first to point it out for you.

Got to practice what you preach.

I'm a big Jimmy Carter fan by the way...

[Hanse]

97. So you're saying instead of one plane they should take a squadron of helicopters.

That's a beautiful example of hole digging.

Thank you for making my night.

[ddeclue]

106. Umm NO... I'm saying the White House Press corps can take the bus...

and they can take two or three helicopters on a trip like that.

A blackhawk (UH16) burns about 150 gallons an hour of jet fuel.

A 747-200 burns 3600 gallons an hour.

Translation, he could have taken 23 helicopters and STILL save fuel.

Need a ladder to get out of that hole friend?

:eyes:

Doug D.

[Hanse]

112. Oh, the president can take a helicopter...

where as the large staff he needs to work with can get stuck for several hours in rush hour traffic in a few buses.

This just keeps getting better and better.

[ferrous wheel]

116. Okay, what large staff does the Pres need for a 3 hour cruise.

You can be specific or you can be vague...your choice.

[ddeclue]

120. Well there's Gilligan.... the skipper too... the millionaire and his wife...

the movie star... the professor and Mary Ann...

oh wait that's the wrong show... I've gotten Gilligan's Island confused with the West Wing again...

:rofl:

[ferrous wheel]

123. HEEHEE

We are surrounded by minnows.
:D

[SammyWinstonJack]

203. !

:spray:

[Hanse]

124. Oh, I don't know.

Presumably an entire security detail.

A team of advisors.

Another team of assistants.

Maybe the press corp.

Maybe specific congress people he wants to talk too.

You know, the usual large crowd of people that accompanies the President on Air Force One.

[ddeclue]

136. And he doesn't need to fly with them all by his side on a tiny trip like this...

sorry but that's a fact.

And there are a lot of intermediate options between 747 and helicopter too. 757's, 737's (BBJ), G-V's, G-IV's.

and the President ought to suck it up a little like Jimmy Carter did in the 1970's if he wants the rest of the nation to sacrifice especially if he wants to have the moral authority to go after the fat cats that have been screwing us for so long on Wall Street.

Doug D.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

167. Wait........

You're talking crazy, like as if the President's time has any kind of value.

I mean, you're carrying on like he's WORKING during the flight.

We all know he's either sleeping or watching the movie. We all know that.

[ddeclue]

169. And if his time is valuable at all, the helicopte is the quickest way

for him to make a trip outside the beltway and less than 200 miles - NOT the 747.

:crazy:

[Tangerine LaBamba]

175. Right. He just needs to sit

That's what I want my President doing with his time. Sitting with headphones on.

Hey, you forgot to sign your name. Are you still the same lamebrain you were when you were signing your posts?

Go away. Your inadequacies aren't funny any more - just tiresome.

[ddeclue]

180. Oh you are so tiresome and not making any relevant points..

Obama can work on ALL of these aircraft just fine... they are configured for executive use, not cattle car Southwest Airlines seating...

Why don't you read up on them first before you spout off about something where you apparently know nothing?

Doug D.

[ddeclue]

117. Um NO he doesn't need to have the entire White House staff

with him on a short trip.

You might have heard of a thing called the telephone - you know that guy Alexander Graham Bell invented it over a hundred years ago..

and the radio invented by that guy Marconi???

I think the President has a few of those at his disposal so that he can actually talk to his staff as he needs to without dragging all 1200 staffers with him on the road trip.

:crazy:

[Hanse]

122. So he doesn't need that busload of people to follow his helicopter?

Make up your mind.

[ddeclue]

140. NO make up YOUR mind...

He doesn't really need that busload of people... I was only offering them a bus to make YOU happy. The Press can get there on their own for all I care that's not the taxpayer's responsibility.

In reality he could go out there on a helicopter and come back in about an hour each way with a very minimal group of people.

Doug D.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

176. Well, dammit, Doug Dimwit,

you get on the honker - 212 456 1212 - and TELL HIM HOW WRONG HE IS!

What will happen to us if he doesn't know you're out here, with all your superior knowledge, telling people on a message board how wrong this all is?

CALL. SET THAT POOR STUPID MAN STRAIGHT.

Rats. It's not even fun slapping you around. You really are too sad.

Tangerine LaB.

[ddeclue]

181. Umm unless they've recently changed the # it's still 202-456-1414... dimwit...

:rofl:

[Control-Z]

188. You know

how many people Obama needs with him? Is he limited somehow in the number of people he can take? Are there only certain people even allowed on the plane? Are there regulations?

I don't know anything about airplanes or helicopters. I also don't know much about AF1 protocol. I just assumed that the president got to make those decisions.

[ddeclue]

192. Of course he CAN take whoever he WANTS..

but WANTING and NEEDING are two different things...NEED implies necessity, WANT is based on desire implies more than mere necessity is involved.

and as I've pointed out it's not like he is unable to reach these folks on the phone so NO really doesn't NEED the entire staff to follow him out to some two hour event 200 miles from home.

[Control-Z]

215. Again. You know that?

You know how many people he actually needed? You know that phone conferencing would have been adequate?

[Oilwellian]

201. Cue....

The Red Baron!!!!

[1]

111. they always fly three identical helicopters in a marine one flight...

you know, to confuse the bad guys...

[ferrous wheel]

118. Any time Marine One is in the air, there are at least TWO other identical choppers nearby.

You aren't really as abysmally ignorant as you seem to be, are you?

[Captain Hilts]

209. It's cool to watch the fakes pull away from the one carrying the P at the last minute. nt

[1]

110. actually, a uh60 has a range radius of 320 miles. so effectively a range of 600+ miles...

the 320 miles is as far as it can go, turn around and then come back. 600+ miles one way.

so yes, either could easily manage a trip of that size in complete safety.

[ddeclue]

126. That would assume that they were going to fly it totally out of fuel

in a straight line though to say 600 nm in a straight line. I was referring to a radius, perhaps I wasn't being clear.

That would be too far to fly by helicopter though IMHO. I think if the trip was domestic and longer than 200 nm but less than 1000 nm and he was not staying over night he should fly one of the smaller planes C32, C37, C20, etc.

If it's international or longer than 1000 nm or overnight then I have no real problem with the VC25's.

People here are being all indignant about this and don't even consider that the 757's (C32) that are available to the President are comparable in size etc. (if not range) to the old 707's used from the 1960's until 1990.

[Why Syzygy]

29. Ditto. Where oh where is the proof you profer?

:freak:

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ferrous wheel]

46. Haha...you're an amusing little boy

Funny

[Tangerine LaBamba]

48. Oh,

and I was just gonna make us some espresso.

[Why Syzygy]

74. These pretzels are making me thirsty. Expresso, please! nt

[Tangerine LaBamba]

75. But, but, but,

I do believe I've been ditched by a troll.

Is there anything more humiliating?


::::: sobbing ::::::

[Why Syzygy]

92. Ah, the chase.

Good to get the blood rolling.

I swear .. I've had some issues with some of Obama's actions. But NO ONE will tell me there is ANY FUGGING reason in the world he cannot take that plane!

[Tangerine LaBamba]

95. It was just so stupid

I live fifteen minutes from the White House, on the Virginia side. I know the distances around here, what traffic is like, the whole thing.

These assholes are absolutely lost because they cannot lay a finger on OUR PRESIDENT, and that's just busting their sorry asses.

I must admit that it's fun slapping a dickwad around. Good for the soul.

Thank you for playing.

[Why Syzygy]

102. Oh wow.

There was one Sunday on the thread explaining dumpster diving.
"You DUers" "Pull yourself up" . yammer yammer

It's always a pile on.
Chase to the death in that case.
They'll come back later and delete sub-threads. hehehe

I do not care if he took the plane to the 7-11. It's his frickin plane! I think all this media frenzy is race related, and it makes my blood boil.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

113. Of course it's racial

Some of it is that he's a Democrat and we won. But the bigger rub for these douchebags is that he's NOT ALL WHITE and OBVIOUSLY BETTER THAN THEY ARE. They're just too gutless - bigots always are - to come out and say it.

Let them delete. It's fun slapping them tits together, as we say here in the South.

For our troll friends, there is always this:

[Why Syzygy]

119. Someone posted pics earlier (of him boarding the plane)

and NONE of them were any good. After all the wonderful photos, all of a sudden they can't get a good picture? hmm mm yuh

[Tangerine LaBamba]

127. He just landed at Andrews AFB

Anderson Cooper 360 covered it live.

And you know what?

HE GOT OFF THIS GREAT BIG PLANE!!!!!!!!!!

NOW, HE'S GONNA GET INTO A GREAT BIG HELICOPTER!!!!!!!!!

DO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH ALL THIS IS COSTING THE TAXPAYERS?????????

Actually, since it was a Democratic event, I should think the Party would be paying for this trip.

There were some good pictures of the Obamas reading to kids in a DC elementary school the other day. Did you see them?

http://tinyurl.com/cqwu7p

[Why Syzygy]

131. ack! But you know what? It's a Pentagon expenditure! haaa

Peace time operation.

Yes, those were great. Did Cooper say that? Great big...?

Did you see this show? I watched it on tv:
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/on-board/all/Overview
THAT was his first time onboard.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

142. No, I said that..........

They were just covering him returning.

I honestly do not remember the last time there was real time coverage of something as routine as AF1 landing at Andrews.

But, I admit, I love watching that man.

I haven't see that show, but a long time ago, one of the AF1 pilots who played golf with a law partner of mine took us all on a tour of the plane.

It's absolutely unbelievable. Like a whole world with wings.

Thanks for that link!

[Why Syzygy]

154. YQW.

I love being able to get my daily dose of belly laughs. But, at this point, he's just working on getting his post count up.

[ferrous wheel]

139. I think that's terrific...he gets off the great big plane. How much it costs us

taxpayers is something us taxpayers will have to consider. Time will tell for sure on this.

[Why Syzygy]

141. Bullshit. nt

[Tangerine LaBamba]

144. You're still here?

Damn. Does your Mom know you're up so late?

You better get busy with your arithmetic homework. You are very deficient in subtraction skills. Among other things.

[ferrous wheel]

222. You're an amusing little p

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[ferrous wheel]

114. Nobody has said (I believe I made the OP) that he can not. The question is,

SHOULD he. Hundreds of DUers have hurled the most vile invective against people who drive an SUV to the store (don't even THINK about somebody doing it with a HUMMER!)...now all of a sudden it's -our- guy doing it so it's fine. Right?

[Why Syzygy]

121. He's not 'our guy'. He's Mr. President, Sir! especially to you. nt

[ferrous wheel]

221. You don't have to call me Sir, and the president works for me.

I'm long out of the military so he's just another civil servant as far as I'm concerned. Some people are willing to cut him an infinite amount of slack because of his unique ethnicity...I am not.

[stillcool]

47. that's a fail. and an obvious one.

[Brother Buzz]

57. My memo addresses Bush's LAST flight, not Obama's flight

Did you read the OP?

[Tangerine LaBamba]

30. No, there's too much

to the protection that goes along with using a helicopter. It's not at all a secure way to transport the President of the United States.

Did you know that every time he goes up in Marine One, there are three or four other identical helicopters flying in the same area so that no one knows which one is carrying the President?

Our home is on the helicopter path between the Pentagon and Quantico, and it's surprising how little traffic there is these days between those two places. Makes me wonder.

[arcadian]

50. The HMX squadrons use several D.C. airfields

The main one is at Anacostia, back up at Quantico, I've seen them using Davison for training and then there is another group at Pawtuxet for the VH-53Ds.

[jberryhill]

37. Mile for mile - fixed wing aircraft are safer /nt

[ddeclue]

93. Um... not so much...no....

Let's see you autorotate a 747-200 into a shopping center parking lot!

You can put a helicopter down just about anywhere.

A 747 requires at the very minimum 5000 foot runway to land totally empty and as much as 10,000 feet to land fully loaded.

Oh and did I mention that you can land a helicopter at near zero forward speed.

The 747's minimum stall speed is as fast than either Marine One variant's max operating speed.

I'd much rather be in a "crashing" helicopter than a "crashing" jet airliner.

:crazy:

[Captain Hilts]

208. Helicopters have "too many moving parts." nt

[Brother Buzz]

216. The Jesus Nut is the one essential part that has no redundecy or backup

I believe is is the one part that inspected religiously

[Why Syzygy]

38. The Marines will train you to find out!

Give you a dysfunctional body armor and EVERYTHING! Get back to us.

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. Try to understand this... not about fuel efficiency

I wish it was

About security

yes, it is within the range of Marine One... but Marine One does not have even close to the safety elements AF 1 has

And before you say it, Camp David and mot of its flight by AF 1 is secured air space

Incidentally so is AF 1 before it lands and after it takes off

[trof]

202. Yeah, that's what I thought. Take about 45 minutes?

Maybe less?

[Captain Hilts]

207. Yes, I'm kinda surprised. Hell, they shoulda strapped him into a fighter from Pax River -

first prez to break the sound barrier!

[Brother Buzz]

212. No, there wasn't enough room in the cramped cockpit for his cod piece and his brain

You know what I mean, Vern?

[ferrous wheel]

23. I am so happy you're not referring to me as a stupid asshole, because

my post which got so many panties in a wad, never suggested the President should have made the trip in a taxi...it was merely questioning the propriety (and economics) of spending about a thousand dollars a mile on a trip the length of which is not uncommon for regular people to make in a daily commute.

You mention helicopter trips to Camp David.. that's good because it exemplifies my point: Camp David is further from D.C. than Williamsburg is. There is information in that observation.

I have to give you props for innovative terminology...fuckface and fucktards. How nice! Are you Beavis or Butthead?

[Tangerine LaBamba]

33. How many people do you know

travel 300 miles round trip as a commute?

Before you start discussing something, you really should have the basic information - i.e., the distance covered.

Camp David is sixty miles from Washington. Williamsburg, as I pointed out, is one hundred and fifty miles away.

You're also incompetent.

[Pithlet]

44. Camp David is not farther away than Williamsburg.

Camp David is in the Catoctin mountains in Maryland. It's only about 60 miles or so to the north of DC.

[ferrous wheel]

67. Yes, you are right, I was wrong. The difference is about 30 miles.

It's a hop, skip and jump for any aeronautical machine. Once you take off in a flying device, the difference aforementioned is of little moment. It takes way more time to ascend and descend than to 'cruise' which is a few minutes in each case. The point is, does the mission of 1 or 2 hundred miles really justify several hundred thousand dollars for such a mission? I raised this very point LOUDLY on the rare occasion Bush (and Clinton too) did it...and I damn sure reserve the right to question it now.

[Pithlet]

76. The difference is greater than that.

It's over 150 miles from DC to Williamsburg. Sorry. I think it's perfectly fine, myself. You're perfectly entitled to your opinion, of course. But you're wrong about the distance.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

No, dickwad

I see that simple arithmetic isn't your long suit, either.

You really are stupid.

Go ask your Mom to show you that subtraction lesson again, and then come back when you master it.

And do not confuse "master it" with what you're obviously really good at.

I didn't read your post because, well, idiots who can't do subtraction are good only for kicking around.

Yes, that's you.

Now, run along.........................

[jberryhill]

204. "I raised this very point LOUDLY"

Uh, you signed up here a few days ago. You didn't raise any points here prior to then.

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. Ye asked for reference you got reference

and I will point this again for your benefit

The flight to Camp David is over secured air space.

Damn for somebody who claims to know a bit about the industry, well it should be OBVIOUS to you how a presidential flight works, unless you work in an area of the country that NEVER, EVER sees a chief executive.

Me, I saw them somewhere else... they were a pain

[ferrous wheel]

18. I absolutely agree. What was good enough for Bush ought to be good enough for our President.

No problem.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProgressIn2008]

42. Heh. I know. That's an excuse now? Bush did it tooooooooo? nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. And Clinton, and Bush Sr, and Reagan... and Carter

see the pattern

[arcadian]

22. They brought Marine One as well.

Air Force One is more than just a means of transportation, it's a command post. Read this thread on another board it discusses how the Congress members got down there, they took the train. Pictures of Marine One at Williamsburg-Jamestown Airport, different from the Williamsburg New port News Airport.

http://www.radioreference.com/forums/virginia-radio-discussion-forum/131668-kingsmill-house-democratic-conference-2009-a.html

[Why Syzygy]

26. You've GOT to be kidding! At DU? This isn't his first flight anyway.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/54282/the-obama-administration-behind-the-scenes-on-air-force-one

I think I watched this on teevee.

EDIT: BETTER!!!

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/on-board/all/Overview

[MiniMe]

186. He wasn't President then

[havocmom]

36. Aren't there also problems with motorcades out of D.C. due to some bridges

Those cars are a tad heavier than the family van. I seem to recall, back in Reagan's day I believe, there were new armored limos and they were too heavy for many of the bridges on smaller roads out of the area.

The whiners are just looking for reasons to have snit fits. One wonders at what might possibly be motivating some of them.

Being a pilot does not make one an expert on POTUS security. Being frugal as a private citizen hardly give one credentials for deciding on rather sensitive security matters. What the hell is the problem with all the arm chair quarterbacks thinking they know better than the Secret Service and military how to safeguard the President of the United States of America?

[Tangerine LaBamba]

43. I never heard that about bridges.........

Hell, big limousines go over the 14th Street Bridge all the time, back and forth to the Pentagon. Plus, others take the Memorial Bridge, to Arlington Cemetery, for instance.

This is a feeble attempt to bash Obama by those losers who cannot get over the fact that WE WON, that A BLACK MAN IS PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

It's all they've got, poor things.

And they're really stupid, but you've already noticed that.

[havocmom]

51. so, since you never heard it yourself, it can't be possible?

:rofl:

Lots of little bridges in VA from what I have read.

Stupid? Now there's a concept.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

56. No, it's possible,

although I'm hardpressed to think of a bridge that might be too fragile for limousines.

The one I thought of first leads from DC into the road that goes right into Langley, where the CIA is located, so that bridge obviously can withstand the limousines.

The other bridges aren't in places where limos would go, like into SE DC, and they're more like ramps than bridges, actually.

Since I've lived here since 1974, I'm fairly familiar with the bridges, yeah. You read about them, I drive over them.

See the difference?

[jberryhill]

220. Limousines?

A limousine weighs something around 2600 pounds - a ton and a quarter.

Obama's vehicle is estimated to weigh from 7 an 8 tons.

Do trucks weigh a lot?

Yes, they do, and that weight is distributed across a wider wheelbase and larger number of axles.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

223. All the Cabinet members

have heavily reinforced limos. I'm not sure they're as thoroughly armored as Our President's, but I have a friend who owned a Cadillac dealership, and, long ago, when George Schultz was Secretary of State, his limousine was brought in for servicing.

They couldn't get it up on the hydraulic lift. Too heavy.

They have to be able to get around Washington, which was the point of this thread - were there bridge in the DC area that couldn't hold Our President's new limousine - and, as an old Washington resident, I can't think of any that couldn't do it.

So I'm not sure what your post is about, but thanks for the info.

[nadinbrzezinski]

60. As I said to somebody else on another thread

I got to play along on two VIP details, one purely by accident

They are a pain

And the little I saw I'd not share too willingly, even though I am proof positive wasn't sensitive

Granted, one was down right funny, and interesting, and was the purely accidental one.

And no, I don't question security people... at all

[SergeyDovlatov]

41. Still better than locking highways and creating traffic problems

for hundreds of thousands of people.

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. VIPs cause traffic problems? NAHHHHH

:-)

NEVER.....

Really.

Just kidding

[stillcool]

45. I guess people would prefer he either..

never leave the White House, or get assassinated?

[Gregorian]

58. To put it in perspective, an ice breaker ship can use 3500 gallons of diesel per hour.

Folks, things are far far worse than you can imagine. Yes, every little bit helps. But unless we change significant factors in this equation we're doing nothing to solve anything. One C5A transport taking off is thousands of gallons.

I am not in the least bit optimistic that we are going to pull out of our global problem. There are so many invisible processes happening on this planet that are using up vast amounts of energy that it's hard to be aware of them. And it's mind boggling even to those who do know.

[Parker CA]

59. That's an incredible fact. 3500 gallons!?!?! I learn something new every day at DU.

[Hanse]

69. He should be using one of those new electric hybrid jetliners.

That's the only change I can believe in.

[Why Syzygy]

79. If there is a FINAL tank of gasoline on all the planet Earth, I want it to be Obama's!!

[ferrous wheel]

89. That is very interesting. Bizarre, but interesting.

:scared:

[Shakespeare]

66. OFFS. Marine 1 is NOT AS SAFE as AF1.

That's why it's used sparingly.

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. I know that, you know that

but some folks don't

:-)

This is why I said this is about procedures

[ferrous wheel]

85. Bullshit. You don't know any such thing and neither does anyone else.

Marine 1 (it just occured to me, these aircraft were described in extreme detail just this last week on teevee) is SAFE for
its occupants!

:eyes:

[nadinbrzezinski]

99. That is why they have procedures to lower the risks to its occupants

from SMALL ARMS FIRE.

Look, CNN broke all kinds of safety protocols when they REVEALED that little bit in 9.11

But that's the way it is.

Look, you claim to work in the industry... care to tell me what happens when any of these birds flies OVER any airspace? Hell what happens when AF 1 lands in any airport in the world?

Don't worry, if you don't know, nobody will blame you fer it.

[ferrous wheel]

134. I can't tell you any more than you can Google...these days all this info is public.

Maybe that's a good thing, maybe not but it is what it is. AF1 has way more priority than it deserves, IMO...its routs disrupt a lot of air traffic in the same way the president's ground routes do to the roads. I don't begrudge them some measure of exclusivity but it has become redolent of royalty. I didn't like it with Bush and I don't like it with Obama. The airpspace rules for flights near AF1's movements aren't really all that restrictive, they're just very inconvenient.

[nadinbrzezinski]

159. Those rules are not from these days

they are as old as at least Johnson

Jeesus age, they have a reason for existing... and they are not only reserved for AF 1, but since you work in the industry I am sure you know this...

[Oak2004]

73. For those who need it spelled out (as to why a helicopter isn't acceptable):

Here's just one of a great many articles addressing the inherent vulnerability of helicopters:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2007/070208-helicopter-downings.htm

The key quote:

"It's important to recognize that no matter what the military does, however, "all helicopters have a certain vulnerability to groundfire that we will never totally eliminate," Hunter said"

A well positioned shooter with a bit of luck can take out a helicopter -- yes, even a military helicopter -- with ordinary rifle fire. Use something just a little more sophisticated, get a clear shot, and Marine 1 is a pile of burning rubble on the ground, and the Biden family digs out their big family Bible on short notice.

The Marines reduce the chances of this by using multiple helicopters in a shell game, but that merely reduced the odds that a solo assassin will get the right copter from nearly 100% to 25%. I don't know about you, but I don't think a 25% chance of our president being killed is satisfactory. Of course a 200 mile long copter ride is plenty long enough for a sophisticated team of assassins to position themselves for a multiple shot volley, so that they could get back to a near 100% odds of successful assassination.


The best safety measure is to vary the routes and keep the president's helicopter trips as short as possible, so that no one has enough time to position themselves for a good shot.

[nadinbrzezinski]

77. Sadly some folks don't realize we do live in such a world

Hell, choppers can be taken down very easily...

But that's me...

Hell, neither hubby or I like to fly in choppers for many reasons... his involve plenty of 5.56 ammo

For me winds...

And I realize folks don't realize just how vulnerable these birds can be

And security, to me it ain't a partisan issue. Even for shit for brains, I didn't begrudge them using the security... I begrudged them going into a disaster area with it, for other reasons (see Katrina or California fires) but not the security that came with the package.

[Why Syzygy]

83. I don't even care if he did just take it for show.

I know that's not the case. It's security and the JOB. But, so what if he did? SO WHAT?

[merh]

101. Can a helicopter fly at the altitude that AF1 can fly at?

Isn't that also a security measure, flying out of range of weaponry?

[jberryhill]

217. There are a variety of answers to what you are asking...

But, really, it is better to leave security to those responsible for it.

It is not simply a question of altitude. There are other considerations relating to helicopters, safety, vulnerabilities, and survivability.

[merh]

218. Believe me, I do understand.

there is more to it than just "saving gas".

[ferrous wheel]

108. I hope you are not under the impression that a 747 taking off over a populated area

is immune to attack. Some historical data about the Soviet-Afghan "war" would be instructive.

[Oak2004]

128. If you can name me all the times a 747 has been taken out with ordinary rifle fire

I'll concede the point.

All aircraft are vulnerable to being shot down with something at some point in their flight path. The difference is that you can shoot down military helicopters throughout most of their flight path using weapons you can buy at K-Mart.

[jberryhill]

219. Who said "immune"?

While you are pretty transparent, I'm surprised that you believe the argument is one of "perfect security" as between Choice A, and Choice B.

The question is which of A or B is better, not whether A or B is perfect.

[Why Syzygy]

189. uuuughh. Thank you for that! nt

[ddeclue]

78. It's NOT security - it's political pomp and circumstance.

that's why Georgie did it and that's why all Presidents have done it in the past and Obama did it this time.

And please read my OP entitled "Presidential Transportation Options" - the President has had a range of options for quite a while now from the 747, 757, 737, Gulf V, Gulf IV and two different helicopters so please don't try to throw the smokescreen of "security" in our faces.

If President Obama wants to have the moral authority to chastise Wall St. and Detroit Auto execs for taking private jets or buying them or taking huge bonuses he needs to play by those same rules himself.

Doug D.
Democratic Activist
Orlando, FL

[Why Syzygy]

86. Did you know they take TWO planes?

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/on-board/all/Overview

You are WRONG. He takes the PLANE. If you can't support our President, you're in the wrong place.

[ddeclue]

98. Yo, it's DEMOCRATIC underground not OBAMA underground

and you have NO cred to be challenging my Democratic credentials friend.

I KNOW I've done a lot more to get Democrats INCLUDING Obama elected than you have.

and actually they can take more than that to move the motorcade and other gear around.

YES I know all about it as I actually have the NatGeo DVD on AF1 and have watched many times.

You FAIL to get the real point here:

If President Obama is to have the moral authority he needs to chastise Wall Street and Detroit auto execs for flying and buying corporate jets and taking big bonuses he's going to have to tighten the gov't purse strings as well and he has plenty of intermediate options short of using the big 747 for every hop skip and jump trip he takes.

If you knew anything about it you would know that.

Doug D.

[nadinbrzezinski]

104. Security is not up to the President, but his security detail

I am sure you can understand that.

The moral point, granted... but realize there are real threats, and the reason for that plane goes well beyond just transport.

[ddeclue]

109. Umm NO... it's really up to the President...

he's the boss after all - he doesn't TAKE orders from the Secret Service, he gives them. The Secret Service can only suggest to him what he will or will not do.. If it was up to them he'd never leave the building for his whole term or better yet would be hiding in Dick Cheney's military bunker in an undisclosed location. Do you think the SS liked the idea of him going to a D.C. area public school the other day? Or was that OBAMA's decision?

:eyes:

[Tangerine LaBamba]

129. Then, tell me, please,

how would you have had President Obama travel to Williamsburg tonight?

And I'm sure you understand that that visit to the DC elementary school was planned in advance. That's always the case.

[ddeclue]

146. Under 200 miles and outside the DC beltway - by helicopter. nt

[marimour]

157. helocopter travel is very vulnerable to attack

Even with all the security a plane is always the safest option.

[ddeclue]

161. Um NO it's not and please at least learn to spell HELICOPTER if you want to express an opinion about

them...

:eyes:

[Name removed]

179. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ddeclue]

182. Um NO they don't have that ability...

good luck on that one...hitting a moving target with a rifle that is travelling nearly 200 miles an hour flying nap of the earth... bwa ha ha... apparently you know very little about the subject...

and these helicopters have service ceilings WELL in excess of 10,000 feet if you want to fly above it all. The UH60 variant has a service ceiling of 19,000 feet.

Apparently YOU are the one who needs to hit the Google before hitting the enter key...

:rofl:

[marimour]

193. Wrong again.

Since this is obviously difficult for you to understand i'll make it easier for you. You don't even have to use Google, just try reading upthread next time before you post. (post 92)


Here's just one of a great many articles addressing the inherent vulnerability of helicopters:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2007/070208-helicopter-downings.htm

The key quote:

"It's important to recognize that no matter what the military does, however, "all helicopters have a certain vulnerability to groundfire that we will never totally eliminate," Hunter said"

A well positioned shooter with a bit of luck can take out a helicopter -- yes, even a military helicopter -- with ordinary rifle fire. Use something just a little more sophisticated, get a clear shot, and Marine 1 is a pile of burning rubble on the ground, and the Biden family digs out their big family Bible on short notice.

The Marines reduce the chances of this by using multiple helicopters in a shell game, but that merely reduced the odds that a solo assassin will get the right copter from nearly 100% to 25%. I don't know about you, but I don't think a 25% chance of our president being killed is satisfactory. Of course a 200 mile long copter ride is plenty long enough for a sophisticated team of assassins to position themselves for a multiple shot volley, so that they could get back to a near 100% odds of successful assassination.


The best safety measure is to vary the routes and keep the president's helicopter trips as short as possible, so that no one has enough time to position themselves for a good shot.

[ddeclue]

195. "WELL POSITIONED" being the operative phrase

unless one of the bad guys was the pilot you really don't know where Marine One is going to be now do you?

Oh and did you just miss the word "luck"? It's hardly easy to do even if you know when and where to be and are a good shot.

:crazy:

You really need to stick something you know something about and stop wasting everybody's time with a bunch of paranoid google quotes that you drug up at the last moment to bolster your argument.

:crazy:

[marimour]

199. i suggest you do the same.

And anyone with press access can figure out where Marine 1 is going to be at some point in time on most days. Its called a schedule. In fact, I can find out that info on almost any news outlet on most days. Its pretty obvious you know nothing about this subject area and you dismiss anyone in this thread who actually does. But as others have already said, I suspect you and your friend ferrous have another agenda for these posts. Nite:) :tinfoilhat:

[Why Syzygy]

184. You are really no fun at all. Plus, I think

you have a problem with the color of President Obama's skin. I'm bored.

[ddeclue]

194. Actually that's the most bizarre post of the night..

I don't care one bit what color the man is and would be saying the same thing if the President were named Clinton, McCain, Biden, Edwards, or Richardson for that matter.

:crazy:

[Why Syzygy]

198. I care what color he is

and how he is treated. I don't want anyone to suggest that less than is good enough.
When I howl about him, it's the DLC hack crap that gets my cackles up. There's no mistaking that for racism. But, when people begrudge him a plane flight, anything is possible. If not you, some of our 'guests' can use it for cover.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

164. That's not possible

The security risks are too great. You know that. Between here - I am fifteen minutes away from the White House, on the Virginia side - and Williamsburg there are so many unpopulated areas where someone with a SAM could do something horrible.

Any other ideas?

[ddeclue]

170. Oh that's just diotic...a SAM? really?

They have plenty of anti-missile measures on ORDINARY military helicopters already that are quite effective and you'd have to know where to be IN ADVANCE to have any chance of even trying...

Paranoid much?


Doug D.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

174. Gee

You know everything.

So that's supposed to be a good thing? That we should have our President in a helicopter that can knock an SAM out? That's a real comfort.

Paranoid? No. There are things in the world that you might regard as real, including your own competence and expertise, but I see them differently.

I do, though, love how you have to keep signing your name to your posts.

Identity crisis especially bad tonight?

[ddeclue]

183. Paranoid... apparently you are...

and the airplanes have similar anti-missile features too... so what's your point///

I almost always sign off my posts..nothing special about tonight who cares? what does that have to do with the point at hand?

Love and kisses...
Not signing just for you...

:rofl:

[nadinbrzezinski]

190. Guaranteed to take out one sam

sometimes two, with the fuselage

:-)

Fer the record what you are talking about are add ons... nice tv, nice tv

[ddeclue]

196. Um no... I'm talking about chaff dispensing systems and radar jamming systems

in common use on ordinary militay transport helicopters like the UH60 and CH47 - not even exotic special measures.

Doug D.

[nadinbrzezinski]

214. I'll take the word of a person who's been on board these birds

over you, sorry

That said, the Marine One fleet is sure to have them, for security reasons, that does not make them infallible, or impossible to bring down, which in your fantasy you seem to believe.

and that my dear IS THE POJNT for fixed wing aircraft.

Happy for you to live in your fantasy.... keep living in it and questioning the security teams that have used PLANES for a LONG TIME, like Johnson

There are things to worry about that are far more serious than AF 1 use... in fact, AF 1 is very LOW in the priority scale.

Look shinny false outrage, go chase it,

[nadinbrzezinski]

135. Umm no, he has input, but not full control

after all, last time I checked the President of the US is not a security expert

There have been times when the detail has had a conniption, like when Bush took his jacket off

Or they have had spirited discussions, like when Clinton prevailed to talk to people who were there to greet him

But he does not have full control of the security or the details that go with it

Now if you know why they had a cow, fine, if not, fine...

Most presidents and most details reach a happy medium and accommodation but more than once the Secret Service does prevail when THEY FEEL THERE IS A THREAT to the president or in some cases the VEEP, see SS carrying Chenney almost by force to the secure area of the WH during 9.11

Darth didn't control them at that moment... they did... and they did what they are trained to do

[ddeclue]

149. In point of fact he has full control because they work for him not the other way around.

The operational reality is that Presidents tend to respect the advice of their Secret Service details and stick within the recommended guidelines. If a President wanted to ditch his detail and go out to the mall on his own however, there's really not a lot the SS could say about it if he told them to take a hike.

Doug D.

[nadinbrzezinski]

153. Not really, but keep living in that fantasy

Now honestly I WISH our President COULD walk down the street with no protection, and drive to a meeting down at Williamsburg in his own POV...

Alas we don't, so face it, it is just NOT show or bluster

Now if you wish to be that ignorant to believe otherwise. I am happy for you

[ddeclue]

162. I'm NOT saying that he WOULD but rather that he CAN if he chooses to.

It's not up to the Secret Service, it's up to HIM. HE is the Chief Executive, they work for him, not the other way around.

Doug D.

[nadinbrzezinski]

166. Well, I'd rather have him LISTEN to the advance teams

the on site security teams and the rest of it

GOT IT

And once again, AF 1 is far more than just SHOW

[ddeclue]

173. On a less than 200 mile trip - It's ALL for show...

they could have taken one of the smaller planes or taken the helicopter and it would have made NO difference safety wise but would have sent an important message about leadership by example.

Doug D.

[nadinbrzezinski]

178. Whatever you want to believe is fine

have a nice night...

[Why Syzygy]

150. Tighten strings. He takes the plane.

Save money somewhere else. O&O

Listen. It's in the Pentagon budget. If you find that $3 TRILLION that Rummy and Dummy lost, problem SOLVED.

[ddeclue]

155. Yeah but it's about setting an example from the top...

if he wants to be effective at the bully pulpit he has to practice what he preaches.

Of course we need to cut spending in Iraq, etc. and save there but it's about the arrogance of entitled conspicuous consumption the thing we found so annoying about Bush and we find so annoying about these Wall Street fat cats and their 50 million dollar corporate jets and 20 million dollar bonuses.

Doug D.

[nadinbrzezinski]

88. I know what they fly, hell they take part of the VIP fleet on to the air show circuit every year

but it is also about security

If you cannot understand that, I can't help you

Hell, AF 1 used NOT to have a full Trauma Unit, with a flight certified trauma surgeon on board at all times... remember Kennedy?

That is the reason for that little beaut to be on AF 1 these days.

It is also about Command and Control, why I was so damn critical of shit for brains during 9.11... HE HAD the capabilities of a full command center on that plane.... but I am sure you knew that too

I wish it was ONLY about pomp, circumstance and ceremony... but alas it hasn't been about that since at least since WW II

It coincides with the rise to Empire

[ddeclue]

100. It really has nothing to do with security and everything to do with pomp and circumstance

and the President has plenty of smaller planes at his disposal that are plenty well equipped for short trips.

Read my OP on the subject.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

132. Really?

What planes are there and what is the difference between those smaller planes and the one used tonight?

[ddeclue]

165. Please see my OP on the subject: Presidential Transportation Options.

I go into great detail there but he has two 747-200's (VC25's), 2 757's (C32's), there's a pool of 19 737-700's Boeing Business Jets (C40's) 4 Gulfstream V's and 1 Gulfstream IV in addition to the helicopters.

More generally he can use any military aircraft he chooses to (as Bush did flying out to the "Mission Accomplished" carrier photo op) and doesn't have to use the 89th AW if he doesn't want to.

Doug D.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

171. So then,

all the planes have the exact same attributes and features as the big one he flew in tonight? Right down to the medical facility?

And your point is that the cost of these flights should be the determining factor in which plane he uses when he travels?

I trust you've sent these same concerns to the previous President, with the same suggestions and the same discontent with how the big planes were being used?

Frankly, having seen your bloviating about your "credentials," I regard you as a headcase, but, hey, it's a message board, and slapping morons like you around is a fun thing to do sometimes. You make it so easy.

So, now go write a good long letter to President Obama, and tell him what he SHOULD have done. With nothing else going on, yeah, that's exactly what everyone should be examining.

Good night, and goodbye.

[ddeclue]

177. They aren't going to use that medical facility on the plane

in an emergency unless it happens to be in flight or in a foreign country.

He will receive far better care at a regular level one trauma facility and THAT's where he'd go in an emergency, not back to the plane.

And YES as far as C&C these planes are all well equipped to run the country because they were ALL intended for use by the President by the taxpayer.

And YES I DID write GWB about this very thing when he was in office.

And what EXACTLY qualifies YOU to discuss airplane choices other than it's a message board and you want to spout your unqualified opinion on a subject you seem to know little about. I've got credentials and you apparently don't so I'll happily take my own opinion over yours any day.

And I'll write BHO the same basic letter I wrote GWB about this soon enough - you needn't worry.

Goodnight to you too..

Doug D.

[Why Syzygy]

187. nuff said. self del*

[ddeclue]

191. Actually NO... I was NEVER a Hillary fan at all..

I started off Edwards and when he dropped out immediately switched to Obama... I was an ABC person in 2008: Anybody But Clinton.

:rofl:

Funny you should mention "Not that there's anything wrong with that"... I just watched that Seinfeld episode this evening...still funny now...

:)

[Why Syzygy]

197. heh .

Same here. Just think, it could be a LOT worse.
I love Seinfeld. Never gets old.



Go in Peace ~

[Hanse]

90. Yes, it's all very uppity.

[ebdarcy]

81. I can't believe someone is actually making this an issue.

Presidents need security, and AF1 is a part of that security. Seriously, how stupid does one have to be to have a problem with President Obama's travel arrangements?

[Hanse]

87. This is what happens when we only give scholarships to smart people.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

133. This stupid

It's what the whole tempest is a teapot is really about:

[firedupdem]

137. This thread is unbelievable.

This nit picking bullshit is something I've come to expect here. Two weeks in and it's one attack after another. Anybody who has a problem with it can get the fuck over it! That man is under more threats than any other and hell yeah he took the damn plane and I'm glad he did!

The people so quick to piss and moan need to check their own damn households out and make sure you're doing everything right before you keep passing judgement on this guy. I didn't think he'd been in office long enough to have this many enemies on a democratic board.

[nadinbrzezinski]

148. There are more important things than nitpicking over something

Presidents REALLY started doing after Kennedy's assassination

when using AF 1 for everything became part of the security package

Yes, Truman used it, and so did Ike, but Johnson truly used it for everything

Hell. the med bay on board comes from that day in Dallas...