List of Menu Foods Directors and Execs...

[SidDithers]

http://www.menufoods.com/ir/trustees%5Ctrustees_etc.html

Trustees, Directors and Management

* Robert W. Luba: Chairman and Trustee of the Fund, Chairman of Menu Foods GenPar Limited
* Alexander R. Aird: Trustee of the Fund, Director of Menu Foods GenPar Limited
* Serge K. Darkazanli: Trustee of the Fund, Director of Menu Foods GenPar Limited
* Eric A. Demirian: Trustee of the Fund, Director of Menu Foods GenPar Limited
* Thomas A Di Giacomo: Trustee of the Fund, Director of Menu Foods GenPar Limited
* Stephen A. Bearg: Director of Menu Foods GenPar Limited
* Margaret A. Bras: Director of Menu Foods GenPar Limited
* Robert W. Bras: Director of Menu Foods GenPar Limited
* Douglas F. Haslam: Director of Menu Foods GenPar Limited
* Fraser D. Latta: Director of Menu Foods GenPar Limited
* Douglas N. Lunau: Director of Menu Foods GenPar Limited
* Donald G. Watt: Director of Menu Foods GenPar Limited
* Paul K. Henderson: President, Chief Executive Officer and Director of Menu Foods GenPar Limited
* Mark A. Wiens: Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer of Menu Foods GenPar Limited
* Dr. Richard G. Shields Jr.: Executive Vice President – Technical Services of Menu Foods GenPar Limited
* Randall C. Copeland: Executive Vice President – Sales and Marketing of Menu Foods GenPar Limited
* William F. Grant: Executive Vice President – Corporate Purchasing and Logistics of Menu Foods GenPar Limited
* Christopher J. Mifflin: Executive Vice President – Operations of Menu Foods GenPar Limited


Links to director bios seem to be down. They were working earlier today, and I've got screen shots of the info.

Sid

[rosesaylavee]

1. The link to the company's Code of Ethics is also down.

Wonder why? :sarcasm:

[SidDithers]

3. Yeah, the links are all messed up...

you can get to some pages from some pages, but not from certain other ones. I don't know if they've always had broken links, or if they've tried to change things and not got to all of them. Strange.

Sid

Code of Ethical Conduct here: http://www.menufoods.com/ir/ethical_conduct.html

Sid

[China_cat]

2. How many of them are also affiliated with vet schools?

[kestrel91316]

4. Yeah, those evil vets have GOT to be behind this whole mess.

We did it so we could make a POT OF MONEY treating sick animals!!!

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Frankly, I find this sort of insinuation DISGUSTING, and I think you owe every veterinary school and every veterinarian in the country a profound apology. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

Here's the oath we all swear, FYI:

THE VETERINARIAN'S OATH:
Being admitted to the profession of veterinary medicine, I solemnly swear to use my scientific knowledge and skills for the benefit of society through the protection of animal health, the relief of animal suffering, the conservation of livestock resources, the promotion of public health and the advancement of medical knowledge.

I will practice my profession conscientiously, with dignity and in keeping with the principles of veterinary medical ethics.

I accept as a lifelong obligation the continual improvement of my professional knowledge and competence.


I don't know why I even bother to comment. You and your little friends have already decided that veterinarians are the most evil people on the planet - worse than Bushco and the RW christofascists.

[China_cat]

5. Not one of those people show a DVM behind their names.

They are all executives of a petfood company. It is a legitimate concern if people who run petfood companies also sit on the boards of veterinary schools. It's called conflict of interest.

Just like this is a large conflict of interest;

Dr. Mary Beth Leininger, now Hill's director of professional affairs is a past president of the AVMA. Hill's, petfood company that funds the AVMA.
http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/jul06/060701p.asp

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[China_cat]

11. You are the one constantly on the attack

twisting people's words, calling referenced citations lies (while providing no evidence of your own assertions)

Apologize to you? I don't think so.

[kestrel91316]

12. Your so-called references are not legitimate in any way. Citing

websites spewing superstitious nonsense unsubstantiated by peer-reviewed published controlled research isn't something I'm going to dignify by going to the trouble of researching and posting the reams and reams of FACTS readily found on the internet by anyone who is interested.

Why are you ignoring all the facts about your nonsense that I have posted on the Pets Forum? I have cited MANY legitimate references, as you well know, and you conveniently ignore them. YOU DON'T WANT FACTS. You can't handle the truth. It conflicts with the Sock-puppet Brigade's delusions, I guess.

I will continue to attack pseudoscience and untruth where I see it.

[China_cat]

15. I cited Hill's petfood's own website

how is that spewing superstitious nonsense unsubstantiated by peer-reviewed published controlled research?

[AirmensMom]

33. Oops!

I'd like to see the answer to that.

[kestrel91316]

47. That, my dear, constitutes a leap of logic which I address elsewhere

in this thread.

[AirmensMom]

73. Oh, dear!

You leaped the logic. :wow:

Is that like jumping the shark? :rofl:

[kestrel91316]

8. Oh, BTW, the reason none of them have a DVM behind their

is probably because they aren't vets, lol. They are likely a bunch of empty suits with Harvard MBAs who couldn't qualify for vet school, let alone get through and pass boards, if their friggin' lives depended on it.

Menu Foods makes mostly GENERIC pet foods. The kind where vets aren't even involved in formulating the foods - just the bean-counters and folks looking at a copy of the AAFCO guidelines. It figures they make crap. They don't know or care about nutrition.

You go ahead and keep blaming VETERINARY SCHOOLS for the poisoning. It just makes you look like a complete fool.

[China_cat]

9. You sure do like twisting what anyone says that you don't like.

Executives of petfood companies compromise the integrity of the vet schools. Nobody but you is even suggesting that vet schools are behind the poisonings. I stand by what I said before, executives of petfood companies sitting on the boards of vet schools are committing a conflict of interest.

[kestrel91316]

13. You claim this:

".....Executives of petfood companies compromise the integrity of the vet schools......."

Cite a specific instance where such a conflict resulted in a valid ethical problem for a vet school. And no, you may not cite your whacko rumormill websites, lol.

Put up or shut up.

[China_cat]

10. Which is exactly what I said.

That executives of petfood companies have no business on the boards of vet schools.

[kestrel91316]

14. Prove that any are. And then prove how it damaged the school.

Document your claims and insinuations.

I don't know that who sits on the UNIVERSITY governing board really has much to do at all with the goings on at veterinary schools. I'm sure this little factoid is news to you: vet schools are merely large sections of a particular university department, they DON'T have their own "governing" board, lol.

The university I went to had a State Board of Agriculture that headed the entire university. What other hats they wore usually just determined how little- or well-informed they were about anything at the univerty at all. And it helped secure funding, but ETHICS RULES are in place to ensure that nobody gets to buy the results of research they want. Which is what you are implying.

Go ahead and keep implying that veterinarians are all dishonest by definition. You are merely showing everyone your true colors.

[China_cat]

16. I asked a question.

You have not provided an answer. How many of those executives sit on the boards of vet schools? I'm not saying any of them do...I ASKED THE QUESTION about whether they do and your twisting my words aren't going to change that.

[kestrel91316]

48. You want to know the answer? I submit that YOU are responsible for

doing your own homework on this one.

Unless you want to pay me $250/hour to do it for you. That's my fee.

[AirmensMom]

74. Wow! That seems excessive!

Dr. Swift only charges $100/hour. :wow:

Oh yeah, but you're a REAL vet and he's not. ;)

[TZ]

17. Wouldn't you want someone who ran a PETFOOD company

to actually understand pet nutrition, ie be a vet or have a vet as an advisor. HELL YES, in my opinion.
And if they are on the board of a vet school, they would be on the cutting edge of pet health. As long as they weren't making all the vets at that school buy their product exclusively, I have little issue with having an EXPERT on a companies BOD.

[China_cat]

19. When commercial interests sit in on things like this

they expect a quid pro quo. The school will help their bottom line for their input. Plus, the executives are not the 'experts' on anything but the financial picture. If they were, they wouldn't be buying contaminated wheat gluten from China.

These commercial companies are the ones that push to 'teach' nutrition from their own product standpoint. It's setting the fox to guard the henhouse.

[TZ]

22. Would you buy drugs from a company

that employed NO medical doctors? No, I don't think so. I think its important that these companies have experts on their BOD's. Not just MBA's. Most people with scientific degrees tend to think science first and profit second, although there are exceptions. I would trust ANYONE with a DVM before an MBA anyday, appearance of conflict of interest or not.

[China_cat]

24. We're not talking about scientists

nutritionists or otherwise. We're talking about executives...bean counters. THAT'S what I'm saying is a conflict of interest.

But when nutrition classes in vet schools are limited to 4th year students, last only 6 weeks and are presented by pet food company SALES representatives...NOT scientists in the field..., it's even worse. According to my vet, that's all the latest additions to his practice have gotten.

[kestrel91316]

50. Hm. My veterinary nutrition class was second year ( the same year

we studied pathology) and lasted all semester. It was taught by a DVM with a PhD in nutrition, IIRC. And it was the second-hardest class in vet school outside of freshman anatomy.

Of course that's probably why my alma mater is consistently rated in the top two or three schools in the country. We got the finest education money can buy.

[Nikia]

25. The Vice President of Technical services is "Dr."

Technical services in the food industry usually refers to quality and research and development. We don't know what the degree is in. It might be animal or food science.

[kestrel91316]

51. Well I suppose that means that he is a mental deficient. Higher

education rots the brain, if you listen to the Sock Puppets.

[AirmensMom]

91. Why would you say such a thing?

:shrug: Many DUers who disagree with you are highly educated and certainly have nothing against higher education!

[AirmensMom]

21. No.

Given that most pet food companies add grains as fillers to pet food, I'm not convinced that they're experts in pet nutrition. They don't make the vets buy their products exclusively, but they sure do have ways to encourage them to do so.

http://iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/Spring04/Perhach/PetFood/Vets.htm

[TZ]

23. So if you don't think VETS know nutrition...

who does? I said in an earlier post that the homeopathic industry is totally unregulated so there is absolutely no safety in their products. Give me the advice of a trained animal scientist anyday.

[China_cat]

26. But that's not what you're getting

What you're getting is sales pitch by the bean counters who are continuing to tell people that their foods are safe even after the recall of -93- products made by the SAME manufacturer (sort of blows that 'ours is the best' claim out of the water) for both premium and dreck foods.

Do you really think that any vet who cares about animals wouldn't at least have spot checked ingredients from a new supplier to make sure they were safe at a minimum? No, the decision was made to use the cheaper ingredient and not do any testing in order to save money.

[TZ]

27. with menu foods I absolutely believe you..

and I think any of the Vets and Techs that post here will agree. From what I can discern about Iams, which many vets have in the past recommended, it was bought out by Procter and Gamble and started being run by the bean counters and not the experts. I don't think vets knew the source had changed. The wheat gluten has been in there for years apparantly but wasn't considered really awful althought most vets don't consider it great. When they recommend Iams and Science Diet it was always with the caveat that it was the best "supermarket" food available. The vets I know have all told me if they had their way everyone would be on the good prescription/available at the vet only.

[China_cat]

28. Iams, Eukanuba and Hill's

used to be good foods...many years back before they started loading up on corn and other fillers.

Feed that to my dogs for 2 days and they'd blow coat and I'd have one down with a staph flare.

[TZ]

29. yes mass marketing has ruined these foods

Which is why the BOD's should have DVM's (responsible ones) on them to keep the MBA's from idiocy like we have seen. I work in biotech and its always a battle to get the Corporate CEO types to listen to the scientists on how things work. The MBA's think they know best on everything and have ruined (and laid off some of my friends) many a good company in biotech that way.

[kestrel91316]

52. Diet isn't the problem if your dog has allergies (your "staph flare", lol).

Your dog is. He is sensitive to ingredients other dogs and cats tolerate just fine and thrive on. Don't go blaming the food. Just find some alternative.

[China_cat]

66. Funny how it cleared up when I changed foods

and yes, my dog had systemic staph. It would flare up when she was under stress and the stress came from the corn in the food she was getting until I changed her to something without it.

You can 'lol' about it if you want but you're the one who says she knows little to nothing about dog nutrition.

[TZ]

70. actually thats what Kestrel said really,

Your dog had specific problems with the food, maybe due to allergies or genetic issues. But for many animals diet is not an issue. Thats what most vets will tell you: whats good for the goose is not necessarily good for the gander.

[China_cat]

77. No, what she said was that my dog didn't have any problems

at all and that I should have continued to feed her the crap she recommends.

[AirmensMom]

34. Why is it

that I've seen so many bags of Science Diet in vets' offices? And who makes the prescription diets? You guessed it -- the same company that makes Science Diet.

[kestrel91316]

54. We aren't pet stores. We don't have room to stock everything

there is, so we stock what we trust.

Why would we sell crap food that would make everybody sick??? Answer: we WOULDN'T. Once again, you show how truly stupid you think all vets are.

Selling crappy food ALWAYS comes back in the end to haunt the seller. Just ask Menu Foods. They make mostly GENERICS. This was completely predictable.

[AirmensMom]

60. And you trust Hills.

I don't think all vets are stupid. But I wouldn't trust one who sold Hills.

Selling poisoned food comes back to haunt everyone, not just the sellers or manufacturers. Just ask the people who've lost a pet. And I wasn't aware that Nutro and Iams were considered "generic." Did you notice that Hill's Science Diet Savory Cuts is on the list?
http://www.hillspet.com/menu_foods/Menu_Foods_en_US.htm

Selling prescription food as a solution to a "protein allergy" that is actually an intolerance to grains -- grains that don't belong in pet food -- doesn't come back to haunt anyone. The pet gets sick, the owner takes it back to the vet, gets some medicine, rinse, repeat, until the pet wastes away and dies. And everyone scratches their heads, but the food is never blamed. It was the best food available, after all. I can't even tell you how much money we spent, first on our dog, and then our cats, when they were on prescription diets. It ran in the thousands of dollars in office visits, tests, and med. Oh, and the dog died. We just didn't make the connection until we found the solution for the cats. And you ask why a vet would sell crappy food?

We can disagree about this until the cows come home. I wish you would at least open your mind a little to the possibility that there are problems with processed pet foods beyond the obvious poisoning or toxic mold issues that have caused recalls. I saw it your way long enough to lose one pet and come very close to losing two more. Yet you call MY mind "hermetically sealed". :shrug:

[TZ]

68. point and counterpoint

My sister breeds border terriers. They can't have regular food because wheat gluten gives then seizures. So yes, you could say that its a bad ingredient. However the reason they have the seizures has to do with the fact that they are very inbred and thus they have a genetic defect which gives them a sensitivity to wheat gluten. So you could say that its just a bad ingredient for them. My point is maybe the everyday foods are bad for animals with health/allergy issues (as it sounds like has been the case for your animals) but for most healthy animals its okay (my guys-whom are so active tonight I haven't been able to sleep, they are driving me crazy..LOL).

[AirmensMom]

72. So let's assume, as you say,

that everyday foods are bad for animals with health/allergy issues. That would mean they need something special. So they go to a vet and get a prescription diet -- something special. Only the vets don't seem to have any prescription diet that doesn't have wheat gluten (or rice or corn). But this food is supposed to be better than the everyday foods, so you plunk down the money and feed it to your pet. Now your pet gets sicker. Why doesn't the vet say, "You need a food without wheat gluten -- we need to find one that has no grains or corn in it at all"? Because Hill's doesn't make one? Would the vet recommend that you go to a natural pet store and buy some Wellness? I don't know the answer to that, but I do know that my vets did not. By the time we figured it out, our cats wouldn't even tolerate Wellness because it contains vegetables and fruits that they could no longer tolerate.

I'm glad your animals are so healthy. That's what it's all about! :bounce:

[TZ]

79. they did that for my sister

It was hard to find a food without wheat/gluten, unfortunately for her. They special order it now. Its also a rare condition and hard to diagnose I think. My old cat had diet issues and we kept having to try different things. It is trial and errror sometimes.

[AirmensMom]

83. Good for your sister.

I'm glad they didn't assume it was something else. We weren't that lucky.

I agree that it is trial and error sometimes. So what works for your pet, even though it may be a bit unconventional, is not necessarily wrong. Still, I wonder why the pet food companies insist on filling the pet foods with grains. They don't need it and it can cause problems.

[TZ]

87. some debate on it I think

some think its actually helpful some do not. I am not entirely conversant with either side but I have heard that much.

[AirmensMom]

90. Don't know why there is a debate.

Cats are obligate carnivores. That's a fact, not open for dispute. They eat other animals, not wheat fields. But grains are cheaper than meat, so the pet food companies add them in order to increase profits. If there's another reason, I'd be interested to know it. It certainly would not be present in a species-appropriate diet.

[TZ]

95. look at cat grass sales

a lot of people swear that letting their pets graze from time to time is good for the digestion. Some people also think that cats eat houseplants in an attempt to get missing nutrients. SOME carbs are good. Too much protein is bad for the kidneys. I did learn that much from my older cat.

[AirmensMom]

96. That's not the same thing as putting grains into food.

And the amount of grass they eat is nowhere near the amount of carbs found in processed food.

Cooked protein is different from raw protein. I learned that from my current cats, who all have normal kidney values now.

BTW, you might want to check your sig line. The implication that others are stupid should at least be done with correct spelling.

[TZ]

97. I think some grains should be in food

just not as filler which the cheapie stuff does. As for my sig line obviously there is no vaccine against dyslexia either and i am a bad speelur/typist as u can tell 4 sure. Nobudy tuld me bfore this good catch fur u. (my sig line has to do with political idiocy that I ran into at NIH, not really here)

[AirmensMom]

98. Well, we'll have to agree to disagree again.

I prefer to give my kitties some grass or catnip as they require it.

Not a good catch -- just thought someone should tell you. I personally don't care for snarky sig lines.

[TZ]

99. good point on the line but ....

trust me when I say- that the snarky line was perfectly appropriate for a situation I was in last year but I guess its time to put that behind me since it can be misinterpreted, obviously. This new tag is more appropriate for me currently anyway

[AirmensMom]

100. I like that one.

:thumbsup:

[China_cat]

101. For cats, no carbs are good.

They are obligate carnivores who get no nutrition from anything other than meat. Yes, they munch grass. For the same reason you might add Metamucil to your diet...for the fiber needed to move things along.

Carbs and cats don't mix and the rise in feline diabetes (canine, too, although it isn't rising quite as fast as in cats) is starting to be laid directly at the door of high carbohydrates in their food.

[China_cat]

62. Menu foods MAKES Science Diet canned foods.

[AirmensMom]

76. Yeah, I noticed that.

So what happens if Menu Foods goes out of business? What will the veterinary offices sell? :shrug:

[AirmensMom]

31. Ask any vet

how many classes in nutrition were taught in vet school.

Dr. Russell Swift, writes in www.therightremedy.com:

"When I graduated from veterinary school, I thought I knew a lot about health and disease. I was half right. I learned a great deal about disease. I was taught pitifully little about health. Removing symptoms and restoring health are not the same. Drugs and surgery eliminate symptoms yet they weaken the body further, resulting in chronic conditions. As a result of such medical practices, the health of our pets is getting worse. More chronic diseases ranging from allergies to cancer afflict our beloved companions than ever before. The use of processed pet foods plays a major role in this trend. "

He is a trained animal scientist who does not believe in feeding processed pet foods. So if one vet says it's good and another one says it's bad, how did that happen? Didn't they both get a sufficient amount of nutritional training in vet school?

I saw my cats get deathly ill on the prescription diet from a vet's office ... a diet that is sold in just about every veterinary office I've ever been in (which I see as a huge conflict of interest). They were made sicker by all the drugs the vet was throwing at them. If those vets had known as much about nutrition as they should have, they would have seen the deficiency in the diet and recommended a dietary change that actually helped. Instead, they poo-pooed the research I did and told me I was going to kill my already almost-dead cats. Well, now the cats are healthy ... not from feeding these "scientifically formulated" concoctions or from drugs, but from feeding a homemade raw food diet.

The bottom line is where you want to put your confidence, based on your experience. The pet food industry has proven itself unsafe and unreliable. This time it's rat poison in the wheat. Last time, it was moldy corn. What's next? And why don't the vets see something wrong with feeding wheat and corn to our pets, some of whom (cats) are obligate carnivores, in the first place? My experience has taught me that it's up to me to do the research and find out what's best for my pets. No one else cares as much about them as I do.

[TZ]

36. Hmmm vets still know more than most of us.

Maybe I am old school but if I want advice on my pets health I ask vets, if I want advice on my own health I ask a doctor and if I want advice on druga I ask a pharmacist. No one person is omniscient of course but I think the experts are the experts. Trust whom you will, the scientifically trained folk have more accurate info than the psuedoscientists that seem all too common these day.

[AirmensMom]

38. You sound like someone else now.

Insulting people by calling them "pseudoscientists" doesn't exactly encourage civil discussion.

If I had done what you do, my cats would be dead.

[TZ]

40. I never said that all vets are right and honest

but I would trust them in general. My cats are very healthy, btw. There is a lot of psuedoscience that floats around sometimes (and not just on this particular topic) but I am not calling you that. I just want you to get your information from reputable sources for informed decisions. Obviously you have a right to your own opinion. I would love to trust to my own cooking but since I can't cook, I am doing the best I can commercially for them. Should health issues arise, I probably would go to another level for their food.

[AirmensMom]

42. Well, we went to several of them

who told us everything from "you have too many cats" to "they're just stressed" to "they're allergic to chicken." When your normally 9-pound cat gets below 5 pounds, it's reason to do a lot of research very quickly. So I found three vets who suggested changing the food to raw. Sure, it sounded like a long shot, but I saw results within a week. I am still in touch with those vets, although I have not required their services for over a year.

LOL! Cooking is not required for our pet food. Just a little mixing. I hope you never see such issues with your pets. It truly sucks when they get that sick.

[kestrel91316]

57. Ahem. I just have to set things straight for the HUNDREDTH TIME,

because you keep repeating the same old falsehoods and somebody is gonna get seriously hurt eventually if this keeps up.

Raw food diets containing raw meat pose a direct and proven threat to the health of the animal being fed and to other animals in its environment INCLUDING HUMANS and especially the most vulnerable: the young, the old, the stressed, and the immunosuppressed.

I am way too tired to do the cutting and pasting and researching AGAIN.

CDC has excellent info, as does AVMA, many published research papers in peer-reviewed journals around the world, and vast numbers of posted and laboratory verified cases of food-borne illness on our vet website.

If you love your pets and if you love your fellow man, you don't feed raw meats to pets. Period.

[AirmensMom]

63. Ahem ...

For the hundredth time, your tone is insulting and condescending. You do not know everything.

Blah, blah, blah ....

You have NO explanation as to why my pets recovered with a raw diet when they were almost dead from the prescription diet. No explanation whatsoever! If I had followed your advice, they would have been dead two years ago. Maybe you're the one who should stop repeating the same old fear-mongering.

[China_cat]

65. Hey, out of curiosity

Didn't I hear someone say a couple days ago that she had us both on ignore?

[AirmensMom]

69. You know what they say about curiosity!

Must've looked like this:

OP: Ignored
Reply #1: That's bullshit!
Reply #2: Ignored
Reply #3: Ignored
Reply #4: Raw food is dangerous!
Reply #5: Ignored
Reply #6: Ignored
Reply #7: Ignored
Reply #8: Ignored
Reply #9: She's an expert, you know!
Reply #10: Ignored
Reply #11: Ignored
Reply #12: Ignored

:rofl:

[China_cat]

80. Would you trust a vet who acts like the bully

on this list and tells you that you HAVE to do everything the way she says to do it or you're several kinds of an idiot and you hate vets and you'd sue your vet if your pet got sick and you must believe in the flat earth theory because you happen to think that your way is right for YOUR pets. Even when you say you don't care what she feeds, you think it's just a little over the top to be calling names because you don't agree?

Of course you wouldn't.

[AirmensMom]

84. No.

Not at all. Not on your life.

[Gelliebeans]

93. I will agree

with you on that. The reason I go to my vet is because I trust her expertise. I interviewed her and got to know her philosophy and it jives with me and my pets. Everyone wants to do what is in the best interest of the animal including the vet especially when you have chosen the vet with careful consideration beforehand. There have been times in my life where I fired a doctor where I find distinct opposition in philosophy. You make these decisions in preparation for a time such as an emergency or disaster in which those people you have entrusted will be making the best decisions for you or your pet.

[kestrel91316]

55. The good Doctor Swift graduated from Fla in 1985 according to

the AVMA directory. Strangely, he doesn't appear to be working as a veterinarian in any capacity, as he lists nothing under the practice activity category. This is most interesting.

In fact, it causes me to wonder if he either couldn't get a license to practice in any of the 50 states, lol, or perhaps was once licensed and now isn't - meaning his license may very well have been revoked.

Come on, you can come up with better sources for your information than THAT, can't you? First Lisa Pierson (not working/possibly not licensed), then that crackpot Belgian vet, and now this.

Good lord.

[AirmensMom]

67. Yes, he is working as a veterinarian.

And he makes house calls! :wow: Dr. Pierson is also a practicing vet. Maybe you need to find a different source.

Jeez! All you can do is run people down! Say what you want, they healed my cats.

You are the meanest, most spiteful so-called vet I have ever come across. You're not helping anyone by being that way.

[TZ]

75. may I make a hopefully helpful observation?

I think you and Kestrel are very defensive and misinterpreting each other's comments greatly. It is obvious that your pets are doing well with the vet you have. Thats fine. But what works for your pets or what is bad for your pets is not going to be the same for everyone. That's Kestrel's point. I actually have found Kestrel to be a very nice thoughtful and helpful person who is undoubtably a vet. Of course I only know her on line but I think I am a decent judge of people. If she lived near me, which she does not, I would take my cats to her without thinking twice. She has also had a very bad time with this food poisoning issue, and your comments are taken as personal/professional attacks on her integrity. Can you see how this would incite a nasty edge? I had something similar happen to me in another forum, so understand where she is coming from. In her mind, it seems that you are the fear monger. POV is the problem here I think. I hope this helps. I hate this kind of nastiness.:hide:

[China_cat]

81. I'm sorry but no, it isn't

Kestrel has been spewing vitriol at anyone who disagrees with her. On anything.

From her comments, I truly wonder if she IS a vet. Because I've only ever run into one vet who acts like her and if it weren't for the fact that that vet is totally computerphobic, I'd think they are the same person. The vet I'm talking about has killed more animals than the legal lethal room at our shelter for the simple reason that she, like Kestrel, refuses to believe that animal owners can actually know something about the pets that live with them.

I don't care what she feeds her animals. I know what works best for mine. I don't deserve to be called a vet hater, a pseudo scientist, a flat earther, and several other totally derogatory terms.

My dogs speak for themselves. Scroll down to Elwood's pictures
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=243x24631

[AirmensMom]

86. What you said, China_cat.

:applause:

And Elwood is GORGEOUS!!!!! :toast: :yourock:

[AirmensMom]

82. No, that's not her point.

Read through the Pets group. She is on a mission to convince everyone that raw food is always bad for every pet and every living being. While I may think it's the best food available, I am perfectly happy with others making their own decisions about what to feed their pets. (But I will also freely discuss the problems we have had with certain foods.) I never said that everyone should feed raw. However, she keeps saying that no one should feed raw.

Someone asked about switching to raw several days ago and she responded by spamming the group with all her "wisdom", insulting anyone who disagreed with her ("pseudo scientists", "flat-earthers", etc.). No one was debating the merits of raw, but rather the methods for switching.

Because I feed raw and am more than happy to pass on any knowledge I have to anyone who asks, she is condescending, insulting, and just plain rude to me. And now she is insulting two excellent vets who helped my pets. This has absolutely nothing to do with the recall, except that if someone is going to say how dangerous raw food is, they need to consider the recall for the sake of comparison.

How can you call me the fear monger when she is the one who posted about 20 threads with nothing but fear about raw food? People are afraid because of the recall, especially if they feed those brands, and I doubt it is possible to add more fear when the pets are already dying. I would certainly be afraid if I were feeding those brands.

[TZ]

85. Kestrel and I don't always agree

but she has never bullied me, and maybe she really thinks your views are wrong and dangerous. I happen to be a little afraid of raw foods for anyone. Even if pets are different from human beings domestication has changed them and made them vulnerable to some of the things we are vulnerable to. Her scientific knowledge is also first rate. The problem is you don't seem willing to understand that a lot of professional, scientific people have a certain view on things and that when people start expressing opinions as knowledge that is counter to what they have learned they feel they have a professional obligation to point out the flaws in the argument or "crusade" agaisnt it. I myself have done this several times on other topics.

[AirmensMom]

88. You and I disagree on that.

The whole thing. I do not have any respect for the scientific "knowledge" of people who bully others. And that is exactly what she is doing. No, she doesn't get a pass from me. Her knowledge is not better than the knowledge of the vets I do respect.

[AirmensMom]

94. Check your facts.

They both have active veterinary licenses in their own state. I verified it, but you can learn how to look up facts on your own. You have just proven how bad your sources are. Next time, get it right before you go around disparaging people's qualifications.

[China_cat]

103. From the Florida state veterinary board

Would you now like to rescind your libelous statement?


Dear xxxx,

Thank you for your e-mail regarding Dr. Russell Swift. He holds a
current active license in the State of Florida. His license was issued
in 1985 and expires May 31, 2008.

Please contact me if you have any questions.

Linda Tinsley
Government Analyst
Board of Veterinary Medicine
850.922.7154

[AirmensMom]

108. Thanks, China_cat.

And she wonders why some are offended by her "informational posts". :shrug:

[kestrel91316]

37. The only encouragement I get from Hill's is the ability to buy

for my hospital and personal pets at wholesale prices because I have an account with them. Do you have knowledge of some other inducement, because if you do I'd sure like to know about it?

They used to feed us a cheap buffet dinner to go along with introducing new Prescription Diets (WOW, hotel food!!!!) but they haven't done even that much in years.

Like I said, I sure am interested to know what the hell these goodies are that they AREN'T telling me about. I'm pissed.

[AirmensMom]

41. Here you go ...

since my last link obviously didn't cut it with you.

http://www.vetmed.iastate.edu/students/current/organizations/Hills01/hillshome.aspx

--snip--
Scholarship:
Guidelines for Hill's Funding Allocation:
On an individual basis, one could receive up to $400 for Veterinary expenses.
Receipts for expenses are a MUST. No receipts = No money at the Committee's discretion. Receipts for food are not acceptable.
Once approved for funding, the committee will contact you.
Hill's Pet Nutrition, Inc. donates over 4 million dollars annually worth of pet food to Veterinary Colleges nationwide. Over $100,000 of this is given to Iowa State University's College of Veterinary Medicine for the Hill's College Feeding Program. Hill's Pet Nutrition, Inc.'s primary objective in providing this program to the students, faculty, and staff of the College of Veterinary Medicine is education.
Eligibility for the Hill's College Feeding Program is limited to students, faculty, and staff of the College Veterinary Medicine; only currently enrolled veterinary students not including pre-veterinary students.
--snip

Here's one from their own website:
https://www.summationdata.com/hpn/

"We donate our products to student organizations at selected Veterinary Colleges - FREE OF CHARGE!"



You're not missing the intent, are you?

[kestrel91316]

44. They fund a scholarship for vet students? That's evil??????

They provide food for animals at vet teaching hospitals? THAT'S evil?????

They provide food for faculty and student pets? THAT'S evil???

BTW, you failed to document anything they are doing for ME.

[AirmensMom]

45. Did I say it was evil?

No. I said they encourage vets to buy their food. You're going to tell me that you wouldn't feel beholden to a pet food company that gave you food for your pets while you were a poor vet student? It's called brand loyalty, Marketing 101.

You must think yourself pretty important if anything they are doing specifically for you would be documented by anyone except you. Sorry if you didn't get your free toaster or whatever. You're missing the point, so let me spell it out. It calls the nutritional education of vets into question when they are given food by pet food manufacturers and taught that it is nutritious food.

It's sort of like drug companies giving doctors free drugs. The doctor is likey to give out the free samples and then write a prescription for the same thing. (Of course, it depends on the doctor, but I hope you see my point by now.)

[kestrel91316]

58. If my pets thrived on the food, you're DAMNED RIGHT it would

make me loyal.

Again and again you seem to have mistaken me for an utter fool.

[AirmensMom]

61. You have repeatedly returned the favor.

And if my pets get sick on the food but well on another food, you not only mistake me for a fool, but you call me every insulting name you can think up.

[kestrel91316]

46. I think I finally get what your beef is. It sometimes takes me a while

to decipher irrational lines of thinking in internet posts.

Basically you are saying that receipt of charity from Hill's by some veterinarians and vet students is a cause of blindness and inability to think rationally and exercise a system of personal ethics in all veterinarians.

Did I get that right? Would you care to post a link to the peer-reviewed published literature that supports this? I'm sure you'll find it easily enough.

[AirmensMom]

53. OK, so it's just a coincidence

that they sell the junk in their offices. You prove my point, although I take exception to your saying it happens to "all veterinarians." There are some good ones out there who can think outside of the Hill's box. They are the ones who helped my pets.

Yeah, you spammed the Pets group with all your peer-reviewed blah blah blah. Us mortals aren't allowed to draw conclusions from our own experiences. And any vet who disagrees with you is a pseudo scientist. I know the drill. :eyes:

[China_cat]

102. Gee, if a company gives me free products

I'm very likely to tell my friends about what a great company they are and how they help people. I may even urge them to try the products or, if I'm a bit pushy, tell them this is what they need to be buying, that nothing else compares...in fact, that nothing else even comes close to being good.

If I'm in business, (which I was for several years) the companies that give me the best breaks on my prices or supplied me with products for my own use are the ones I'm going to be selling to my customers. If I'm a supplier (which I was, complete with 2 government contracts), I'm going to give my wholesale customers a better break on prices and supply them with samples at no charge in order to get them to put my products 'out front' or even pass on a competitor's lines.

What I gave away in free and reduced price merchandise returned to me about 8 fold. That's about average for most businesses.

It's all about the bottom line. And being a 'nice guy' will definitely increase that.

[TZ]

104. free products...

When I did some work for NIH last year, I was trying to set up a testing lab from scratch so was trying to find the right supplies to do it. I found a supplier who seemed to have what I needed at first. So I ordered a great deal from them. They sent me free goodies sometimes or gave me price breaks which as govt worker was appreciated. However after a while it became clear that their product was flawed in a way that the company couldn't explain. I dumped them like hotcakes and immediately looked for a new supplier. The bottom line is this while being a nice guy (giving goodies and perks) might help if you don't make a quality product, that means ZIP with most people and its going to bite you in the butt-Iams is finding that out now. I have yet to find anyone who stayed with a company after finding out bad things about their product because they were given a freebie of any types- unless you are a lobbyist of course.

[China_cat]

105. But what if there were no obvious flaws in the supplies?

It performs, but it isn't as good as advertised. You keep on getting the goodies, pushing the products and because the suppliers are 'really nice guys' you never even bother to check.

It's marketing. And marketing is about the bottom line, not about the quality of product.

[TZ]

106. sure BAD marketing hurts stuff sometimes

but in order to thrive in a free market, you need it. There is TONS of stuff on the market that works but is not as good as advertised (in fact I would say most products are like that). I don't automatically think that anything that is mass marketed or advertised MUST be evil. Look at something like Claritin- really over the top mass marketing. And it doesn't always work all that great for everybody but for most its a really wonderful medication. I wouldn't buy something just because of an ad, but I wouldn't discount a product automatically because of that either. Its all about finding a happy balance. Sharing experiences helps this process, but not demanding that everyone think your way because of your experiences, or (in the case of other people I know- not you) spreading disinformation about that product to scare people into their POV.
Again this post is not aimed at you in general but in an attempt to explain where people like me and Kestrel are coming from because there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding floating around.

[China_cat]

107. There is no mistaking

of the intentions of someone who libels a vet by saying their license (if they ever had one) must have been revoked.

Took me 3 minutes to find the state veterinary board and email them asking for the true information. Five minutes later they emailed me with the info that kestrel said she couldn't find...that the vet in question is currently licensed and valid for at least another year.

It was an attempt to disparage someone who disagrees with her. Anyone who will go to those lengths is not someone I would believe if she told me it was raining outside. Unless I checked for myself.

[AirmensMom]

110. There is one person here trying to scare people

and you know who that is. As I said before, the recall scares people on its own merit. But posting dozens of threads about the dangers of an alternative IS "scaring people into their POV". I don't care what you feed your pet. That's your decision. However, Kestral has told me that I'm going to harm MY pets and other people by feeding them raw, even though my vet and my experience are telling me otherwise. That is "scaring people into their POV" ... or at least attempting to.

Then she has the audacity to disparge two vets on a public board ... two vets who are too busy caring for animals to have the time to post on a message board all day long. To add to post #80, would you trust a vet who spread libelous statements about another vet, without doing the most elementary research? I know the vets she is disparaging and I know they are licensed. But they disagree with her, so she attacks them. They have not once ever attacked her.

[ThomCat]

111. You're turning this into a needless fight.

I don't know the vet industry, but we are all familiar with the way the pharmacutical industry manipulates doctors. It would be naive to assume that nobody is trying to influence vets if there is money to be made in it.

You may be getting confrontational to protect your profession, but there's no need to be so hostile about it.
:shrug:

[kestrel91316]

49. There you go again, Sue, using logic. What am i gonna do with you???

[TZ]

56. bang my head agaisnt the wall a few hundred times?

Oh wait, I already did that here and elsewhere.LOL:rofl: :rofl:

[AirmensMom]

20. My, my ... aren't we getting touchy?

She asked "How many of them are also affiliated with vet schools?", which might call for an answer like:

1) "Let's see if we can find out! It would be a conflict of interest if these people were influencing what veterinary students are being taught about pet nutrition."

2) "Most of them. Seems a little like a conflict of interest, doesn't it?"

3) "Some of them. Still a conflict of interest, don't you think?"

3) "None of them, thank God! That would be a conflict of interest, wouldn't it?"

But nowhere did she accuse vets of being evil or money grubbing. And nowhere in your oath do I see, "I will bully and insult others who dare to question me."

Calling anyone who agrees with her "your little friends" is just as insulting as you intended it to be. Oh, and I know some very good veterinarians who are Bush lovers. And some very bad veterinarians who are Bush haters. Go figure. :shrug: That doesn't mean we think all vets are evil ... just the bad ones.

[AZBlue]

18. I'm sure not one of them is - they aren't interested in animals' care or health.

They are ony interested in the almightly dollar. I'm sure it's a group of accountants, lawyers and other cost-cutting types.

(I'm not putting those types down...just saying it would be more appropriate to have some vet input too!!)

[dkofos]

6. Thanks for the list

I will be sure to personally bitch them out because I am sure they really give a shit about what I think

[napi21]

30. Folks, this is a Canadian Company, and I am POSITIVE nobody

at their Corporate office or in managementin the other production facilities deliberately intended to harm any animals. I hope they DO find out exactly where the cantaminate came from and WHY it escaped Menu foods internal inspection that is done on ALL raw materials that come into their facility. It seems to me they are trying to do everything they can to fix the problem and make things right to those that were harmed. For now, Ithink we should wait and see what further info is released.

[China_cat]

32. The only thing they are doing now is damage control.

[napi21]

35. There's some of that, and it's to be understood. They are also

cooperating with all thepeople who are performing the test to determine the real cause. I've also heard, several times, thet they will reimburse anyone who's pet was harmed. Yes, they added the caveat "as long as the illness is linked to the food", butI understand that as well. I listened to a vet David Lazarus' show last night. He was the Chairman of the Vetinary Board. He saidit would not be that difficult to prove the cause of the illness and link it to that food. Any Vet would be able to do that.

I HATE that something like this has happened. I am a volunteer dog rescuer and animal lover, and I sure never want to see any animal harmed. I do believe Menu Foods is being responsible so far, and has accepted their responsibility. I'm willing to wait and see the final outcome.

[China_cat]

64. The outcome now is that ALL Menu Food have been recalled.

Regardless of type.

[MedleyMisty]

71. Reimburse?

Money won't bring cats and dogs back to life. Nothing can, and these bastards need to pay more than just a few vet bills.

I can understand and forgive a lot of things. Buying cheap poisoned wheat gluten just to save a few bucks or whatever - yeah, no.

[kestrel91316]

59. Of COURSE they meant to kill animals!!!! Don't you know ALL

people involved in manufacturing pet foods are evil, except the sainted few that are mysteriously the favorites of certain folks here (couldn't be bribing them to hype their foods, could they???).

[AirmensMom]

89. As usual,

you are completely out of line.

If it's a mystery as to why certain foods are favorites of "certain folks here", you need to do more research. Oh, and find me a link that supports your accusation.

[liberalEd]

109. So Canadian Companies are immune to corporate greed?

Look, there is only ONE excuse for importing wheat into North America, and that is GREED.

While they probably didn't deliberately intend to harm, they were careless, and the reason for their carelessness was undoubtedly GREED.

[PhilipShore]

39. Reagan's deregulation is the reason

If the pet -- and even the human food industry was regulated, no rotten food would be sold.

[EFerrari]

43. Let's not forget to rec the thread.. K&R

[nicknameless]

78. K&R

[Pachamama]

92. Here's something on their site that I think we should find out more about:

http://www.menufoods.com/about_us/rand_qa.html

See the last sentence - I want to know who and which "independent kennels and labs" conducted feeding trials and what the results were and how often these tests were conducted. Were they just taste tests during development? Or do they feed animals these products regularly? Did Menu Foods know sooner about the problems than they claim???

Research and Development; Quality Assurance

Menu operates a focused research and development program to foster innovation. Research and development activities include developing new recipes, testing recipes, developing new manufacturing techniques and improving existing methods, materials and processes. As a part of Menu’s ongoing research and development for its customers, and to ensure its customers' products maintain a high level of palatability relative to the leading brands, independent kennels and labs are contracted to conduct feeding trials of its products.

[liberaltrucker]

112. After reading through this thread

And enduring a lot of corporate-sponsored bullshit, I must relate my
personal(no, my cat's) experience with commercial pet food.

Jade had a problem with the "runs"-yuck! The vet suggested this and
that-didn't work. It finally dawned on me that cats are indeed carnivores.
No corn, no wheat no rice, no veggies at all. We now feed her nothing but
rare beef, along with small doses of vitamins. Voila! One healthy kitty!

Vets are just like MD's-they take their best guess. But in the vast
majority of cases, common sense is the best way.