Is it unreasonable for us as a country to simply accept failure. No stimulus bill.

[RB TexLa]

No more bailouts. Right now we'd be looking at a 20 year or so recovery. If we do nothing but support a social safety net maybe it's 60 years. Other countries can lead the world's politics and finance without us. Many countries don't produce economically and make it by on what they can do and aid from others, we could as well.

I'm not advocating it but it is a viable option, simply pull the plug on it.

[Donnachaidh]

1. I think the plug has already been pulled.

And it's only *America* for the people who can suck profit out of the corpse that remains. The rest of us who are unemployed or underemployed are going to wither on the vine, while Washington argues over the dregs.

[aquart]

2. Thank you for your concern.

The free market regulates by death.

[Hello_Kitty]

6. I think that's fine with him. As long as it's those eeevil Amurkins dying. eom

[Hello_Kitty]

3. You just really want to see your fellow Americans suffer don't you?

It's like a compulsion with you.

[RB TexLa]

4. what?

[Hello_Kitty]

8. Don't even. Your reputation precedes you.

You are the biggest cheap labor stooge on this board.

[RB TexLa]

9. out of over 100,000 plus users no reputations precede anyone.

what a joke.

[Hello_Kitty]

11. You're a joke. You don't fool anyone.

Except maybe yourself.

[RB TexLa]

12. I'm not the one saying I've memorized over 100,000 users of an internet message board.

:rofl:

[Hell Hath No Fury]

17. Sorry, but you are one of the more...

well known DUers because of your bizarre views that have for years left me baffled as to why you continue to hang out on this board. :shrug:

[RB TexLa]

19. No one knows me or my username out of the 100,000 plus here. That just bullshit

People don't remember the usernames on a message board and I am in no way that important.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

22. Sorry, but it's not.

You stand out like a sore thumb and have since I have been here. :shrug:

[RB TexLa]

24. The only people that are going to memorize someones user name on an internet message board are sicko

stalker types.

Other than for someone with that kind of mind it's just not important who the other people are.

[Hello_Kitty]

33. You should have changed your user name to Joe the Plumber because you're about as bright as he is.

I'll bet you don't even have a lot of money. But you'll spout the corporate propaganda in the hopes they'll reward you for being such a good little lickspittle. Hell, maybe they will! Look at ol' Joe. Maybe we'll see "RB TexLa the Corporate Lackey" as a foreign correspondent! You can report from some low-wage country about how great the sweatshops are!

[TornadoTN]

39. Seriously, this has to be the most elaborate trolls I've seen here

Good job though for hanging around this long, reputation and all.

[Kalyke]

54. Uh - they're not saying they memorized 100,000 names.

They're saying they know YOURS because your views made you stick out.

How hard is that to understand?

[tammywammy]

25. "I don't drink with you"

Yes, you're memorable.

[Elwood P Dowd]

30. You have become famous here for your pro-corporate, pro-rich free trade and

outsourcing support. Since these policies have been disastrous for the middle class and the poor, the vast majority of DUers do not support your views.

[cherokeeprogressive]

32. How many of the 100,000 plus are regular posters such as yourself?

eom

[Hello_Kitty]

34. Seriously. Does think people who know who Skinner and Will Pitt are are stalkers?

[Hello_Kitty]

37. While it's very likely that the concept of "having friends" is alien to you,

Sometimes people on message boards have them. Out of 100,000 members here there are people who have befriended each other, respond to each other's posts, and (gasp!) even do this funny thing called "PM"ing each other. Those people have done this weird thing called "memorizing" the user name of the person they've befriended. It may be hard for you to grasp, but it doesn't make them "stalkers" or "psycho".

Now, in your case, we know your name not because we want to be friends with you, but because of your rather obnoxious views on certain issues.

[Subdivisions]

42. Not only do I recognize and remember your nick, but I don't

even need to see it before reading your posts to know it's you. In fact, the same is true for a number of DUers of your ilk. And you are the worst of all of them.

[Raksha]

61. Don't think people don't remember you.

I remember your former user name, and made a point of taking your posts with a very large grain of salt, as I will continue to do under your new one. Thanks for reminding me who you are.

[blondeatlast]

21. Now that I see the old username; yup--you've got it. nt

[HughBeaumont]

36. YARP.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I don't know why he's still here either.

[Deja Q]

50. Even I will admit he's on the right board on some issues.

I just can't fathom his blind one-sidedness regarding offshoring.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

5. Beyond Unreasonable.

In fact, one might call it downright loony.

[TayTay]

7. Ah, this is barely round one of a world class prizefight

Are you kidding me?

The bell just barely rung on round one and it's already too hard? Did you think that the monied interests and those who are vested in the current power system were just going to give up? This is a fight not a takeover.

[ixion]

10. not failure... accepting the reality of what we've been allowing to happen for the past 20 years

since the crash of 87, people have tried to note that the stock market was over-inflated and did not represent real value. No one wanted to listen.

Well, now the game is up. The correction will happen stimulus or no stimulus. The stimulus will, in fact, make it worse because we're broke.

The best thing we could do, in my opinion, would be to face facts -- failure, as you put it -- and return to making things again, and try and restore real value to the market. Until then, we're living in a dead fantasy.

[treestar]

13. No, though it can be fun to debate Libertarians and purist

free market conservatives with the idea, since it is essentially what they advocate.

when the market is down, they think, it will recover. They are probably right. It's just the people living through it in the meantime don't appreciate economic theory playing out over just letting the government "interfere."

[RB TexLa]

14. I wasn't advocating it or saying that the market would recover.

I threw out the 60 year recovery period, but could be no recovery.

[madville]

15. Like paying your house payment and utilities on a credit card

It will work in the short term but eventually it catches up and makes things even worse.

[MineralMan]

16. Libertarianism is not progressive.

Sorry, Charlie. Progressives want more than ignorance and intolerance.

[The2ndWheel]

18. We can never allow entropy to defeat us

Or so they say. That's what this whole thing has been about for thousands of years. If we make the shovel, why would we stop digging?

[Donnachaidh]

20. that's just it -- we DON'T make the shovel anymore. n/t

[The2ndWheel]

31. Which is why we're bailing ourselves out with borrowed money

We want to keep digging, so we yell up to the people at the opening of the hole to throw down some more shovels. We can't make the shovels anymore, since we're so far in the hole, with dirt as far as the eye can see. The only way to get out is to keep digging, but we can't dig up. So eventually we'll dig that hole to China everyone has always been talking about, even though they're the people at the opening of the hole throwing the shovels.

I knew I was going somewhere with the shovel thing. Wasn't completely sure where, but then it all tied together at the end there.

[Coyote_Bandit]

23. I'm hoping

it gets MUCH, MUCH, MUCH worse - and it pains me to say that because I know some folks will be terribly and irreparably hurt. As someone who is already long-term underemployed/unemployed I am willing to sacrifice present interests for future stability.

I don't want to see the economy fixed. I want to see it transformed. I want to see productivity valued over wealth creation. I want to see infrastructure and manufacturing rebuilt and strong.
I want to see living wage laws. And maximum earnings laws. I no longer want to see consumption used as a measure of personal worth. I want to see the efforts of blue collar workers and tradesmen valued and respected. I want to see an educational system that actually prepares folks to earn a livlihood. I want to see everyone have equal access to health care. And much more....

Sadly, I do not think these changes will occur unless it gets a whole hell of a lot worse.

[uncle ray]

26. how about YOU accept the failure of the policys you endorsed?

or is that what you are doing now?

[EstimatedProphet]

27. It's the RGBolen Show!

The name has changed, but the format's the same! It's everybody's favorite grumpy old man, RGBolen!

[HughBeaumont]

35. More like short sighted, full-of-shit, old-three-years-ago comedy act.

[Marrah_G]

28. In theory it might sound good, but it would cause a great deal of real suffering

Suffering not by those who caused the problem, but by those who had the very least influence on it all.

[prolesunited]

29. It ain't the rich people who literaaly woud be dying in the streets

if you pulled the plug.

[Deja Q]

55. I've asked this as does others: What does he do for a living? And how dare he say we admit failure

FAILURE TO WHAT?????

Indeed, with all the recalls and complaints on products and services, America isn't quite the one failing right now and all the talk of "new empires", making an empire out of crap products isn't going to stand much on its own either.

[JVS]

38. Not acting to avert a deeper crisis would be criminal

[backscatter712]

40. Fuck no.

If the Rethugs won't cooperate, we steamroll them.

It took a couple tries for the Bushies to jam their FISA fucktardery down our throats. Maybe it'll take us an extra try or two.

[RB TexLa]

41. Not talking about the current debating over the bill. Just a general observation

Like the country collectively choosing to do this.

And as I said in the OP, I'm not for it, just putting it up for discussion.

[ThomWV]

43. As a general observation - double fuck no.

[ipfilter]

56. hehe, how far into 1984 are you?

I've been seeing your posts for the past few days and have noticed a certain Orwellian flair to them. Are you in Room 101 yet?

[ThomWV]

62. Honest truth - I have re-read it twice in the last year.

[backscatter712]

44. Fuck no, we shouldn't just let the country fail. Letting this country fall to ruin is unacceptable.

Giving up on the Keynesian math ensures this country will turn into a third-world shithole. Following such a course is completely unreasonable.

[Hello_Kitty]

45. The OP thinks that if America becomes a 3rd world shithole that will bring up other nations

No amount of explaining the concept of "race to the bottom" gets through to him. He will continue to spout globalist propaganda when he is picking over garbage scraps for something to eat.

[RB TexLa]

46. No I don't think that. America can stay in a healthy economic position without being selfish and

helping the world economy to grow. We've done it for a long time. A growing North American and EU sectors of the world economy are vital to world economic growth.

[Hello_Kitty]

47. Um, in case you hadn't noticed the economy is NOT in a healthy position right now

The world's biggest consumer is broke, and is taking the rest of the world down with it. And it's kinda ironic because some of our "trading partners" who were telling America to accept more globalism were at the same time talking about "decoupling" from us. That decoupling didn't turn out to be so easy, did it?

[Deja Q]

53. Thank God; for "global economy" does not say "global economy sans a cherrypicked group of countries"

Then it isn't GLOBAL. Not by any damn measure, forgive me for saying the D-word.

[Elwood P Dowd]

48. Our economy is trashed thanks in part to trade deals you have been supporting here for 5 years.

NAFTA, CAFTA, GATT, WTO, and such have cost us millions of jobs, trillions of dollars in current account deficits, increased social costs, falling value of the dollar, and weak job creation. The fat cats have made out like bandits, and the middle class and poor have been told to eat cake. We now have negative GDP growth, negative individual savings, and increasing poverty. It's a race to the bottom, and your beloved trade deals are a major part of the problem.

[Deja Q]

52. Yet the US is starting to shrink. Are you able to give solutions to that problem?

I don't entirely disagree with you, and I'm sure I've admitted as much before to you, but let's get real: We are NOT in a healthy economic situation. We can't continue to cut taxes unless JOBS are created. Solid jobs. A larger tax base to draw from allows FOR tax cuts. What has been going on has been doing so for years and despite all the claims, American jobs have NOT been created as a result of the tax cuts.

It's not too late to reverse things and do globalization FAIRLY. But what has been proceeding is unfair; even toward the countries we believe are being helped.

[RB TexLa]

58. The stimulus plan is one thing to help that. I haven't thought any of the tax cuts

either by Bush or Obama would be that helpful. I wouldn't want to raise the taxes right now, but we could have a "reapportionment" of the Bush tax cuts. Keep them dollar for dollar but shift the top 10% cuts to the bottom 40%.

[Deja Q]

60. That idea I like; reapportioning the cuts and doing the shift to those who need the cuts the most.

I agree; raising taxes wouldn't do any good. Not with things this unstable; the core issue is to get spending going again - which means confidence must go up, ability to get an available job, and the ability to spend money going up as well. The right people getting more money is a logical, significant step.

[Deja Q]

51. I'm compelled to agree.

Many people, myself included, have mentioned various facets that trump his point of view.

The global economy is helping to raise other countries' local economies and quality of life to an extent, but there are so many factors he refuses to look into or refuses to believe. Never mind it IS negatively impacting the already developed countries. If it's about expansion, how come everyone else is suffering and losing because of it? Seems more like migration, and that I have said before.

Not to mention the veracity of every country in the "global economy"; what if (tinfoil hat time) they aren't as much for it as he is? Others have cited articles suggesting as such.

A shame.

[Deja Q]

49. But that means we need jobs to help pay back the debt.

Wait, you hate jobs regardless of the circumstances, if it's about fixing America's debt toward the Global Economy(tm).

BTW:
More than America is thinking about protectionism of their 'local' economies

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

57. They're stopgap, ease the pain, measures. That's all.

They aren't going to solve anything or stop the recession. The politicians have to, at least, appear to be doing something.

The problem is that what they're doing is being done with borrowed money which will cause more problems.

It's a Catch-22 situation of being caught between a rock and a hard place.

[rockymountaindem]

59. Thanks for being willing to consign my entire adult life to the scrapheap

It's nice to know you're thinking about the long-term impact of this shitstorm on people in their 20's. Things already look bad enough without you coming in here to suggest we do nothing to improve the situation.