How strongly do we value Animal Life?

[SidneyCarton]

I realize from the outset that this is a vexed topic, but considering an ongoing argument in LBN, I thought I'd ask.

Do you see Animal life as of equal worth to human life?


In the interests of full disclosure, I see Animal life as precious, but I hold human life even more so. I realize that others view this differently, and respect their points of view. I do not believe any animal should be treated with cruelty or neglect, and that those who do so engage in shameful behavior that reflects poorly upon us as a species. As I am not a vegitarian, I have no qualms against eating meat, though I do believe that I personally, and all as a culture, we do eat too much meat, and it wouldn't hurt to cut back. I am against factory farming, and believe that the work done in slaughterhouses should be done with a minimum of cruelty. These animals will be sacrificed for our appetites, the least we owe them is that their life up to the moment of sacrifice is not awful.

Edited because my title made no sense.

[Taverner]

1. I don't know - but this needs to be discussed

I really think we need to define these ethics with a rational approach


And yes, I am not sure...

[SidneyCarton]

3. Yes, a rational approach would help.

I like watching a pig get slaughtered as little as anyone, but I still eat pork, and I am not willing to ban the eating of all meat.

As to Whaling, I see no reason for it at all, outside of the ritual hunts performed by native peoples, which hold both a traditional and a spiritual meaning. (I also doubt the natives will hunt whales to extinction anytime soon.)

[Taverner]

5. It really gets sticky

Honestly, I do think we as a society will eventually evolve into Vegetarianism, and we will look back at meat eaters on the same par as slavery.

But that will be so far in the future...our grand kids won't even see it

[SidneyCarton]

11. Interesting.

That is possible. Even a Theist must admit that while God may have given us these creations to use, they were to be used with stewardship, and without excess. Meat in particular was to be eaten only in extremes and in times of famine. Perhaps we will yet progress to such a point where we will actually be good stewards of this world, regardless of who gave it to us. If we don't, we will likely not remain stewards for much longer.

[Taverner]

17. An SDA (Seventh Day Adventist) GF told me her church's position

If you have dominion over the animals, that means you're King. What kind of King would eat his subjects?

[SidneyCarton]

19. The only one who comes to mind is Elizabeth Bathory...

:yoiks:

She makes a good point.

[Taverner]

22. Yeah and she didn't eat them in so much as use them for bathing

[NeedleCast]

35. A hungry one?

[JanMichael]

2. We, as a species, don't give a flying rat's ass about animals

sorry-- but, that's true.

[SidneyCarton]

4. Agreed. But we are not a hive-mind.

What do you feel personally on the subject?

[Taverner]

6. Some Do - just ask flvegan

He definitely gives a rats ass about animals

[The Straight Story]

7. Treat and Eat. Treat em with respect, then eat them.

Cause if we don't some other predator will kill them and they won't care about doing it quickly.

Not to mention, they don't even cook their food before they eat, we have enough respect to season them just right and bring out their full flavor.

:hide: :rofl:

[SidneyCarton]

12. Ah, another proud member of PETA?

People for the Eating of Tasty Animals?

[JanMichael]

47. yes, we are a bee hive.

wife and I are vegetarians with rescue pets.

[Bryn]

63. I do give a damn about animals

and I don't give a damn about ignorant humans.

[WillieW]

80. That makes two of us.

[wuushew]

8. Where ever that value lies whales should be near the top of the list

n/t

[SidneyCarton]

14. That begs another interesting question, should that value be gradiated, and how?

Even if all life is sacred, is the indiscriminate slaughter of Whales or wolves more immoral than that of E.coli or Salmonella, or is such prejudice, mere "evolutionism."

I would say that obviously, Bacteria rate low on the level of concern (they take pretty good care of themselves anyway) but do we respect fungi and plants less because they cannot scream, fish because they cannot cry, and reptiles less because they aren't cute and fuzzy.

That said, being mammals ourselves, perhaps charity starts at home.

[cherokeeprogressive]

9. Depends on the cut. n/t

[SidneyCarton]

15. LOL

:toast:

[cherokeeprogressive]

28. Actually I have decreased my meat intake, and I do really feel that it's essential

to limit cruelty in harvesting animals for human consumption.

I felt guilty after replying to your first post but it was the first thing that came to mind LOL.

:fistbump:

[SidneyCarton]

31. No problem

As none of us live like the Inuit, we could all stand to eat a little less meat.

[lumberjack_jeff]

10. No. Clearly not.

I value the diversity of animal life, and wish to preserve all species.

An individual ant or deer or fish or cow? No. Three of the four are food and the last is just annoying.

[SidneyCarton]

18. Indeed, were ants to be considered in that sense

I would have to be executed for mass murder and chemical warfare.

[ZombieHorde]

13. I value human life over non-human life.

I value mosquito life less than non-mosquito life.

To summarize; Human life > non-human/non-mosquito life > mosquito life.

If all life is equal, and we choose to eat meat like many of our fellow animals do, then eating the largest animals would be the most ethical, since one elephant can feed many more than one chicken.

[ferrous wheel]

20. Remember the old joke about elephant ear sandwiches?

:rofl:

[ZombieHorde]

25. No, please tell. nt

[ferrous wheel]

36. Well, okay. Guy sees a sign on a diner that says "We can cook anything you can name

guaranteed."

So he goes in and says "I'll have an elephant ear sandwich"

The waitress goes into the kitchen and comes out looking dejected, "I'm sorry sir we can't do it."

"aHA!" he says, "I knew you didn't have elephant ears to eat!"

She replies "We do, sir but we ran out of the big buns!"


-----------------------------------------------------------------
Told you it was old...at least 60 years 'cause I first heard it in 2nd grade. :D

[ZombieHorde]

67. Its bad, but I still laughed. Thanks for the joke. nt

[SidneyCarton]

23. Yet chickens repopulate faster than Elephants

Thus it is theorized that the first Americans, (who likely used much the same logic) eradicated most megafauna from the western hemisphere through overhunting.

But I have to agree about the mosquitos.

[Taverner]

27. I agree - but remember we are both products of our time

History may (and I emphasize may) look back at our time and think we were inhumane by eating animals.

Especially if the "Sentience gene" is picked up by animals...

[NeedleCast]

40. I wish to subscribe to your newsletter

As I agree with your philosophy.

[ferrous wheel]

16. Well, although humans can subsist on a diet with no meat, other animals cannot.

And that's a clear indication that consuming flesh is completely natural. To the extent any living thing has a 'purpose' providing sustenance is surely a noble one. It even works out that way for those who believe in a 'creator' (which is, of course, where the name 'creature' or 'critter' came from :D)

Your point is well taken, though...even is dinner is the ultimate fate of nonhuman animals there is no excuse for any cruelty...which is all too common, unfortunately.

[lukasahero]

21. I'm one of those who believe they have equal worth

When people try to use the "of course your puppy is 'like' your child" with me, I tell them it's unnecessary to define her worth by trying to compare her to a child. She's not a child, she's a puppy and she has inherent value in that alone.

That said, I am not out to ban meat although I do work/volunteer to make farming practices more humane. Any meat products I do buy (chicken and turkey is about it) I make an effort to buy from organic and humane producers. I see a shift in the world heading in that direction.

Nor am I one of those who thinks we shouldn't have pets - I'm one of those that thinks we should care for and honor the animals on our planet as animals. And when I call them animals, it's not meant as a put down.

I've been coming to my own understanding of our place in the world with animals over several years and it's hardly going to be explained with the nuance and complexity required here but I thought I could at least chime in as this is something very dear to me.

[Taverner]

24. The question that it comes down to is how do we want to evolve?

As carnivorous killing machines?

Or in harmony with other species...

Of course, this brings up the "Save the Vegetables" campaign.

Keep in mind the Jains go one step further than the Vegans - they won't even eat a root (garlic, onions, potatoes, carrots, all OUT)

[NeedleCast]

44. Are you suggesting that carnivores are not in harmony with other species?

[Taverner]

46. Again, another good question

I would think so - but why would they?

Keep in mind Factory Farming, Free Range Animals, etc...

[lukasahero]

49. There are carnivores and there are humans

True carnivores eat what they need. Humans turned it into a manufacturing process. I think Taverner meant that we don't need all the meat we produce and eat and we have so highly mechanized the process that we are living out of balance with other species. But I shouldn't speak for him/her...

[NeedleCast]

57. Farming is just as manufactured in most cases

Modern agriculture is a production level agriculture. Sure, there are people who have small, private farms, but for the most part, farming is just as large scale as meat processing.

Think about this. What has caused the most of the recent food recalls and tainted products?

[lukasahero]

60. Um, that's what I was saying...

Not sure where the question lies?

[lukasahero]

52. I don't want to 'save the vegetables'

And I did note that I'm not trying to ban meat.

I do think we have to respect and honor the creature and live, as you say, in harmony with it if just to maintain a healthy ecological balance. I try to do that even with my own garden although I do draw a distinction between sentient beings and vegetables.

I've even killed a spider or two in my time (but, quite honestly, only if there was, what I considered, no reasonable alternative - drives my husband nuts...)

[SidneyCarton]

54. I tend to try and toss spiders out of the apartment.

They're useful, they eat the bugs.

That said, I've used bug spray to keep them from infesting my patio. So, it's a delicate balance.

[lukasahero]

56. That's exactly it - "it's a delicate balance"

If humans were just more thoughtful about their actions, we wouldn't have a lot of the problems we have.

[Taverner]

65. I'm not accusing anybody, and I've done my share of killing and eating killed animals

I'm just looking at all sides of the argument

[lukasahero]

68. Understood

I didn't mean to imply there was accusation in your post, however, please understand that your's is a question I've heard before. Like I said upthread a bit - my feeling is if we could just be a bit more thoughtful about our decisions, we'd be a lot better off.

[SidneyCarton]

29. You make an excellent and well-reasoned argument.

I have a Daughter (20 mos.) and a Cat. Admiral has not had much fun dodging our toddler, but we have tried to make sure he is treated well and have not reprimanded him for the times he has tried to defend himself when he feels threatened (he has shown impressive restraint if I may say so.)

For me, he is not the same as my daughter, but he is family, and Mrs. Carton and I attempt to make decisions that keep him and his well-being in mind.

[lukasahero]

45. Please understand I mean no diminishment of your daughter

When I say I value life equally, a lot of people think it means I think my dog is worth more than their child - that is not how I view it. In my world, both are probably more highly regarded than a lot of people value either. It's a difficult point to make but thank you for not freaking out at me. :)

I do think that if people are going to have an animal as a pet, they have a responsibility to give consideration to that animal as children enter their lives. I see far too many dogs at the shelter whose owners now have a child so off goes the dog. That's not right, in my opinion.

Unless there are serious problems with the dog that one can't adequately handle, no dog should be sent to the pound due to life decisions the owner has deliberately made. (Obviously, there are circumstances beyond some owner's control that break this 'rule'.)

We are a selfish species but capable of evolving towards more humane behavior. (Isn't it funny that we use the word humane even though we humans don't often live up to it?)

[SidneyCarton]

51. No diminishment percieved...

Actually, when Mrs. Carton got pregnant, we worried about the Cat, and wanted to make sure that if He really didn't like the kid and things went badly, we wanted to make sure we found a good home for him where he would be happy and well treated. We take this into account when we consider moving, etc. We didn't adopt him from a shelter just to abandon him, and we have an obligation to take care of him, and if we can't to make sure some one will.

[lukasahero]

55. You're a good person

As is your wife. I do wish more people thought as you did about the consequences and responsibilities of having either a cat or a kid. Perhaps someday...

[billyoc]

26. Some value it more than others, apparently:

[SidneyCarton]

32. Hey, you can grill vegetables...

In fairness, either you like grilling or not. If you really like grilling, you understand stuff like that, if not, it's as incomprehensible as Quantum Mechanics.

[ferrous wheel]

38. I would give my left nad for one of those.

:D

[SidneyCarton]

39. Just so long as you didn't cook in on there.

:scared:

[ferrous wheel]

43. I might grill some mountain oysters on it!

:-)

[billyoc]

61. Aren't they gorgeous?

up here on the 20th floor, it'd be useless, though. I'm confined to getting my barbecue from the waiter. :D

[ferrous wheel]

64. If you're tight with the super, you might wangle a dumbwaiter!

:rofl:

[NashVegas]

30. To The Extent They Are Useful To Me

And yes, it's selfish.

[SidneyCarton]

34. Selfishness is Human

When controlled, it allows for a degree of healthy self-preservation. The danger is when it runs amok.

I'll give you points for honesty. :)

[NashVegas]

48. There's a Lot of Wiggle Room There

For example, whales aren't of much personal use to me, but they are part of an eco-system that is.

[NeedleCast]

33. Do you see Animal life as of equal worth to human life?

No.

[LWolf]

37. I value all life.

I don't rank that value by species, and I value quality over quantity.

I value my horses' lives over some people's. Any of the dogs and cats I've shared my life with, as well.

I value a thriving ecosystem, with abundant diversity of life forms thriving, over human control of other living things.

I value plant life as well as animal life, and hold some plant life in higher esteem than some human life.

I think the world would be better off with the human population cut by about 95%. Through population decline due to birth control and attrition.

That said, I value individual humans as much as I value individual living things. Not more, but not less.

I value the lives of my sons higher than the rest. That may be hypocrisy, it may be a biological imperative, but that's the way it is.

I eat meat. In moderation. I prefer family farm/homestead-raised meat, or wild-caught. I eat eggs. I eat dairy products in the form of cheese.

I like the meat that I eat to have been treated with respect, and to have lived a comfortable, stress-free life up until it becomes food.

I wouldn't eat a human, even though I don't value them higher than a buffalo. I also wouldn't eat dog, cat, or horse. No species domesticated for a working partnership with my species.

I also value death, as a part of the cycle of life, and recognize that SOMETHING dies to feed every animal. My species is not separate, but a part of that process.

Which doesn't mean that I wouldn't do what I could to save a fellow human from a cougar attack. I just wouldn't hate the cougar or hunt it down for being what it is.

More than you asked for? ;)

[Taverner]

41. That is an interesting view

I can see a lot of validity in it

I mean lets say we are talking Dick Cheney vs the sweetest most loyal dog you ever knew.

I don't think there's a person here that would value Cheney over the pooch

[LWolf]

78. Exactly. nt

[SidneyCarton]

42. I may not totally agree...

But I give extra points for a comprehensive, well-reasoned, and internally consistent argument that makes sense. ;)

So, no not more than I asked for, thanks for the contribution.

[aikoaiko]

50. I will pay up to 7/lb for rib eye, but not a penny more.

And I like TNT burgers at less than 1 dollar per 1/3 lb burger. As good as bubba's but cheaper.

[SidneyCarton]

53. I deserve this, I did use the term "value"

:rofl:

[Mari333]

58. yes, I do. humans are animals, btw. they are all equal to me, human animals and non human animals.

[SidneyCarton]

59. Ok, would you care to elaborate?

Are you a vegan?

If not, how do you reconcile your beliefs, or do you try? (Please don't take offense, we all have to reconcile our beliefs in one way or another, and sometimes we end up letting them lie, heck I'm a Liberal Mormon :crazy: )

[Mari333]

69. yes, I am vegan. hugs. nt

[Bryn]

62. Yes, I do

Animals shouldn't be eaten just to please your taste buds nor for their fur, leather, etc. unless you live in the wild like Native Americans did. They had more respect for animals and considered them our brothers and sisters, took them for food and clothings after apologizing to them, not for sports like fat CEO's do or happy trigger hunters just for fun.

[RedCappedBandit]

66. Humans = Animals

Arrogant ones, but animals nonetheless.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

70. I don't think we value animal life enough

The laws involving animal cruelty need to be stricter. I think it should be equivalent to harming a human, because people who harm animals, often move onto people.

Also, I think it's disgusting how a lot of people are all, "oh, I could never kill an animal," but they have no problem getting some factory farmed shit wrapped in plastic from the supermarket. I, morally, am not opposed to eating animals, but I think it is immoral to eat meat, if you don't have it in you to kill/clean it yourself. Not that you have to slaughter all your own meat, just be able to do it.

[azul]

71. It's about self-respect and respect for all life.

I think that some people learn to treat other humans badly by being able to consider some people as sub-human. And this is just a slippery step past treating animals badly. This inequality is learned and passed on and is a root of and justification for genocide and killing IMO.

But if you see in other life forms a will to live similar to your own, you may imagine that thwarting or rubbing out that will to live is not what you would want done to yourself, and you learn to respect its right to live as you would be respected. (Albert Schweitzer's concept.)

Humans can realize that all this life on earth is dependent on its diversity and interaction for continuation, and that this life either created itself or is some creator's handiwork. In either case, playing arrogant and cruel to other life forms disrespects creation and oneself.

Then it comes down to personal taste and finding pleasure and contentment. Some people get rewards in being kind and helping others and some get their jollies killing things. Our little minds have many corners and circles and habit trails.

[uppityperson]

72. I agree very much with what you write.

"In the interests of full disclosure, I see Animal life as precious, but I hold human life even more so. I realize that others view this differently, and respect their points of view. I do not believe any animal should be treated with cruelty or neglect, and that those who do so engage in shameful behavior that reflects poorly upon us as a species. As I am not a vegetarian, I have no qualms against eating meat, though I do believe that I personally, and all as a culture, we do eat too much meat, and it wouldn't hurt to cut back. I am against factory farming, and believe that the work done in slaughterhouses should be done with a minimum of cruelty. These animals will be sacrificed for our appetites, the least we owe them is that their life up to the moment of sacrifice is not awful."

That is how I feel also and, since you put it so well, merely repeat.

[RandomKoolzip]

73. I used to really be for animal rights and stuff, but...

with the financial situation the way it is, with so many other HUGE pressing problems the world is facing right now, it's REALLY hard to give a shit nowadays. When your job's in danger, you haven't paid your bills in three months, social collapse all around, and you're worried about encroaching homelessness, it's really really hard to give half a juicy fuck if the chicken you're eating is free-range or not - you're just grateful to be eating ANYTHING. More and more, in my opinion, the whole animal rights thing seems like pie-in-the-sky college kid windmill-tilting. I mean, yeah, cruelty to animals pisses me off - and I'm a guy whose band used to play animal rights group benfits, I used to be fairly passionate, and these days I just want to make sure HUMANS have rights - and that the entire social fabric isn't going to be obliterated. I apologize sincerely if my prioritizing scheme seems harsh, but there it is. :shrug:

[SidneyCarton]

74. I understand what you are saying, and you'll get no condemnation from me.

One cannot fight for a better world if one has starved. Hope things get better for you.

[Jack_DeLeon]

75. It depends, on the animal and on the human.

I value my loved ones, humans and animals, more than I value any random human or animal.

However I would value the life of any particular animal over the live of certain humans depending on a case by case basis depending on what I know of each.

[Lorien]

76. I think that one loyal and loving dog is more valuable than

1000 Dick Cheneys. It's all relative. But yes, in general I do see animal life as precious and as worthwhile as anyone else's. Some animals give a great deal to the world (a bat, for instance; consuming millions of destructive insects over it's lifetime, or planting seeds in a rain forest). While some humans cause nothing but destruction and heartache throughout their lives. It's impossible to make any broad brush statements on this one.

I think that anyone who watches www.meetyourmeat.com will come to the conclusion that most humans do not value non-human animal life.

[fujiyama]

77. I value it greatly

and likewise believe biological diversity is very important.

But I somehow find it difficult to value animal life at the same level as human life. Some species (those endangered and those closely related to us genetically like chimps and gorillas) are especially deserving of protection, but animals have also been used as food throughout human existence. It's evolutionary. Humans are omnivores. I likewise don't believe it's justified to kill humans to protect animals.

[Critters2]

83. Deserving? "Deserving" implies a moral superiority.

Why would animals be more deserving of value because of their species?

[Critters2]

79. For me, the issue isn't the value of life, but preventing suffering.

Suffering is suffering, imo. Equally so in any sentient animal, human or otherwise. I try to cause as little suffering as possible.

[sammythecat]

85. That's a wonderfully concise philosophy

that covers a whole lot of ground. If that simple principle was a priority for everyone, this planet could truly be a gem in the universe. Might even sparkle a bit for the first time in its history.

[JonLP24]

81. Well because their brains are smaller we figure they don't matter as much

It's pretty much the way it is from a society POV.

[lonestarnot]

82. I have seriously cut my meat intake, fish too.

[yewberry]

84. As a culture? We don't.

Animals and animals' lives are a commodity, traded for vanity, for comfort, for pleasure.

[flvegan]

86. Personally, I value animal life a great deal.

I won't put "value" on either in an animal v human context, because I think "value" is a flawed term in this case. As one can tell from my nic, I'm a vegan so it can be assumed I value animals enough to have altered my entire life to live that way. I also run an animal rescue, and I've turned much of my home and yard to my animals. I've put my freedom on the line many times to save countless animals, and I appreciate certain people that use tactics seen as extreme to protect them. I don't think people want animals to endure any abuse or pain, but I think there's a significant disconnect when it's framed in an "us or them" mentality. That's when dominionism creeps in, and it's a shame.

Animals live for their own reason, just like people do. They aren't here to be eaten or worn or forced to entertain us.

And before anybody asks the "a baby and a dog are drowning, and you can only save one...which one do you save?" question? I'd drown trying to save them both.

[a la izquierda]

87. I value it very highly.

I am a vegetarian. I wish I could be vegan, but I've got some health issues that make being a vegetarian tough, physically, sometimes.

My dogs are both rescues, from the streets or the forest. I donate money to save polar bears and wolves, and donate to my local food pantry too. I think animals are like our little brothers and sisters. I respect them. I think the way animals are treated is abhorrent and I think the way people are treated is criminal. But, the last few years have led me to a somewhat self-absorbed life (I'm a graduate student in history who whiles away hours silently working by myself in archives); I can relate better to animals that I do not have to speak to in order to be understood.

At the same time, I do not disparage meat-eaters; I just wish most would recognize the horror of how their food is prepared. Many don't. I do not disparage those who buy designer pets; I simply hope they understand that millions of pets live miserable lives and die terrible deaths for nothing. And I completely understand the folks who get up in arms at those of us who decry the terrible things people do to animals, when they think we don't recognize human suffering. Believe me, we do.

I wasn't going to respond to this post, not because I didn't think it valid, but because I am very touchy about the subject. However, tonight as I was out walking in my adopted Mexican neighborhood, I saw a dog. It was the same little dude that followed me to the cafe yesterday. I gave him an orange yesterday and prayed he'd not get hit by a car. He looked pretty healthy, just a bit streetworn. Tonight, the poor little guy looked as though he'd been clipped by a car or attacked by another dog, based on his limp. Once again, this dog's plight ruined my day completely.