Why do Dems need 60 votes when Republicans only needed 50?

[GoesTo11]

Bush's tax cuts for the rich passed 50-50 plus Cheney's vote.

Dems are now saying they have to cut education out of stimulus and put in tax cuts and military spending instead. Why? Because they "need 60 votes" to pass this.

New math: 50 = 60 - a pair.

[rusty charly]

1. Inquiring minds want to know.

[tekisui]

2. I pull my hair out trying to understand that.

[mdmc]

3. The GOP is willing to go to the mat for their interests

they are willing to throw down the f bomb. You need 60 votes to get past the filibuster.

[stillcool]

4. To avoid a filibuster you need 3/5ths...

of the total voting (I think)..and they get the 60 number from that. The Republicans never had to worry about the Democrats filibustering.

[robinlynne]

8. why avoid a filibuster? filibuster. talk. what the hell is wrong with a filibuster?

During the filibuster you keep on calling for votes till you vote. If no vote happens, Obama goes on national tv when the Republicans block the vote. You tell the people what is going on, and get rid of some ore Republicans in th next election. the problem with that is what exactly? let them filibuster for god's sake!

[Dragonfli]

10. Exactly!!!! What is that so hard for some to understand?

You explained it well with remarkably few words!

[dmr]

12. That's what we keep yelling at the TV, and in our emails

who cares if they filibuster. They aren't going to say anything during a filibuster that they aren't already saying. I say MAKE THEM FILIBUSTER! Each and every time they don't care what the vote is.

Hell, I just heard turncoat Lieberman say he was "happy to be in their presence" - meaning the obstructionist Republicans.

Fuck that!

Obama tried to play nice, now it's time to punch some lights out, so to speak.

[stillcool]

16. I don't know. The Democrats have an aversion...

to filibusters...and getting rid of Republicans in the next election doesn't do diddly about what's going on today.

[robinlynne]

23. neither does adding 1 billion o nuclear weapons and removing head-start and food stamps

aid, as Reid just agreed to, does it? And how about 42% TAX CUTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Between the tax cuts and the Pentagon, the GOp was just handed around half of the stimulus package. What the hell for?

[stillcool]

25. I don't know what is in the bill...

but it's not a done deal. Even if they vote on it tonight, it's not a done deal. I wish to god, people could just call their Senators and Representatives. Just once, if we got a small percentage of the American people to make a phone call..it might..it just might make a difference.

[eilen]

35. I emailed my senator, could not get through on the phone

My other senator had a busy line and no email addess yet.

[defendandprotect]

54. If Obama wants us to "make him do it" -- he'd better get the lines opened . . .!!!

I don't know who's heading up communications for Obama - but they need help, fast . . . !!!

[robinlynne]

40. I dont think so. Obama knows what the American people want. Even so the Dems in the

Senate continue to cave to the republicans. This negotiation is NOT about what the people want. not even a little bit.

[robinlynne]

42. Well changes we know of... tax cuts were 30%. they are now 42%.

an extra 1.1 billion for nucular (that was on purpose) weapons purchases!!!!!!!!!!!
no more money for head start.
There's a DU thread with a link to all the changes.
Each change is worse than the change before.

Already half of the stimulus package is in tax cuts and defense spending. That means the same people who have been ruling this country for the past 8 years, and now have only 23% support or so, are getting 50% of the stimulus package, and they still want more!!!!!!!!!

[defendandprotect]

53. I think the Dem "aversion" had a lot to do with the NOISE the GOP would make

about Dems using that tactic --- !!!

Don't we all recall that NOISE?

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

20. EXACTLY. And that is what I've not seen Reid do ONCE yet.

Stare down the Republicans, even in their reduced state. Make them do the full-on, all nighter REAL filibuster to oppose economic recovery. Then Obama can go on TV while this shit is going on and tell everyone what time it is.

[mdmc]

22. yeah...

what s/he said..

[Jamastiene]

32. The legislation could expire if they filibuster long enough.

It's not a good thing if the other side of the aisle is doing it. It could be devastating in a case like this stimulus package.

[cascadiance]

33. And devastating to them if non-stop TV is showing average Americans their OBSTRUCTIONISM!!!

to fixing the big problems our country faces. If we have more than just a "vote" but force them to justify their fillibustering on the air, then they are forced into a big gamble on this. If they are shown to have stood in the way and worsened the problem that was created under their earlier watch that much more, they will be DEAD, DEAD, DEAD!!!! in next election, which is the way it should be!

Now hopefully enough will wisen up and realize that this is them committing suicide by doing this and will back off their fillibuster and let the bill pass so that the nation doesn't have to go through this pain, but even if there is a semi-long fillibuster, they will STILL suffer voter retaliation moreso than if it was a quick vote that noone notices.

[Frank Cannon]

38. Let them read the fucking phonebook and piss their pants...

the way it used to be done.

Back when we didn't have C-SPAN 24 hours a day.

[Two Americas]

44. of course

The Democrats are not really interested in working for us. They merely want it to look as though they are, so they can get elected. Meanwhile, the Republicans' clients - the wealthy and powerful few - demand actual results. But we don't. we are "supporting" them, and "giving them a chance" and "being realistic." Anyone saying that we should demand results is treated as a traitor and viciously attacked - not by the right wingers, but by their own supposed allies. It is amazing that so many here put up with this, or worse yet defend it.

[Bonobo]

65. Because we're keeping our powder dry. nt

[Faryn Balyncd]

26. Why let the GOP block with only the THREAT of filibuster, WITHOUT using up their political capital?

It wasn't always this way.

And it will only remain so if we let it.

Make them actually filibuster and pay the price.

[stillcool]

27. "We the people" don't have..

representation I guess.

[Political Heretic]

5. I KNOW. I swear to christ our party is FUCKING DISFUNCTIONAL!!!!!

And I don't need a bunch of fellow lefties to come in here and lecture me on how its always been this way.

I'm not an idiot and I know the ways in which our corporatocracy has its hooks in Democrats just like Republicans.

But in the face of such a huge crisis.... I just sort of THOUGHT that MAYBE dems would have enough balls to do something different....

[defendandprotect]

55. Well, you've named the question . . .

are they LIHOP to aid their corporate-wing/DLC --

or are they cowards or even stupid . . . ?

It looks to me like capitalism is ready to go down -- that the public is ready

to embrace economic democracy and has had it up to their armpits with corporate

control of government and no national health care --- Am I wrong?


Oh, yeah, we also didn't impeach nor STOP the White House criminals ---

and they left having bankrupted our Treasury and creating a world econimic crisis!

[W_HAMILTON]

6. Because our Democratic leaders are wimps.

I'd love to see those jackass Republicans on TV reading phone books and takeout menus. I'm sure Americans will just loooooooove that. But will our leaders make them do that? Of course not.

We need new leaders. How do we get rid of Reid?

[LSK]

7. because Democrats were fucking wimps

[Hoopla Phil]

9. That's a good question as I don't recall anyone threatening a filibuster.

[MajorChode]

36. They did threaten it

[Hoopla Phil]

45. Must have missed that. Thanks. BTW-love your avatar!!

[liberalmuse]

11. Because Reid was born without balls.

That's fucking why.

[defendandprotect]

57. Do you recall that Reid advertised himself as "A FIGHTER" . . . ???

Reid knows what the job requires --- it's game playing for DLC/corporates.

Reid actually was a prize fighter of some kind.

[depakid]

13. Because Democrats lack the courage and political fortitude to filibuster

when they're in the minority.

Since there are never any consequences for crossing over and supporting far right policies (or even presidential candidates) -it's simpler for DINO's go along to get along- please their campaign contributors- and betray the party and their constituents in the process.

[GoesTo11]

14. How about the nuclear option when they're in the majority?

Damn, is it going to be like this for the next 2 years? Republicans still running the senate?

[depakid]

15. The Senate rules are decided undemocratic (in the objective sense)

I saw a study once showing that- due to the lack of proportional representation in the Senate, rules like the filibuster (which don't exists in more representative parliamentary democracies) hold the country hostage to around 17% of the electorate.

[Mr. Sparkle]

17. Harry should call their bluff and make them filibuster everything. I would love to see them try.

[cascadiance]

18. Wrong measurement... It's the non-corporatists that need 60 votes...

Corporatists easily had 60 votes before between the two parties. Now its started to get to the point where the corporatists have to rely on the fillibuster, but it wasn't a 50/50 equation before between non corporatist and corporatist senators.

People need to understand that corporatism (allegiance to corporate lobbies) is the real measure that needs to be looked at now, and a new measurement we need to measure politicians in the next election (regardless of their party) in looking to kick them out (or keep them out)...

[mdmc]

24. yes

[Zodiak]

30. This is the correct answer

We cannot look at this issue as simply Republicans versus Democrats. There are serious fractures in the party. Despite all of the hollering the centrists in the party do lamenting how fractured the Democrats are, they are the ones that stomp their feet whenever the progressive wing wants to filibuster. And then, after a refusal to filibuster, they run off to the republicans and vote with them in turns...always just enough to pass their horrid corporate agenda.

Effectively, as long as this wing of the party is allowed to do this over and over with no consequence, they will continue to drive us off of a cliff. And they have done it over and over....in fact, just about every time a big vote came up during the Bush years.

Ben Nelson is most responsible for this...he is the singular worst Democrat we have in the Senate. He is the one that ran off with the Republicans and made this bill all about tax cuts while stripping education out of the bill and replacing it with military spending. He makes Leiberman look like Kucinich. Him and his Democratic allies in the Senate (DLC mostly, but a few others) need to have their coalition threatened, or we need a Senate leader who can force serious consequences when they flirt with the far right.

[defendandprotect]

59. Right . . . "Blue Dogs" and DLC . . . are running the show . . .

and Emmanuel is soliciting more blue dogs to run against liberal/progressive Democratic

candidates!

Look at the filthy credentials of those that are serving Obama ---

Look at Gregg . . . he's a neo-con Repug!!!

[Avalux]

19. Because even as the minority, Repukes are bullies and rule the Senate.

They knew Dems would never filibuster so 50 votes worked for them. Now though - Dems need 60 because repukes scream filibuster and promise to do it.

Dems need to call their bluff and have it out once and for all. I'm sick and tired of being bullied.

[Juche]

21. The GOP is more single minded, and more willing to risk harm to the country

Newt Gingrich shut down the government because he wanted tax cuts on the wealthy funded by cutting programs for the poor and middle class. Luckily Clinton stared him down and didn't back down, but it seems nobody on the dem side has Bill Clinton's courage to stand up to these people. Now all they have to do is threaten and the dems back down.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_government_shutdown_of_1995

[rusty charly]

52. People forget:

That shutdown was how Lewinsky ended up anywhere near Clinton.

http://tinyurl.com/bs59vw

[mmonk]

28. They are counting the Trojan horse members in the wrong column.

[upi402]

29. There is no Democratic party left, just 2 corporatist parties

I could be wrong.
I really wish I was.

[defendandprotect]

60. That's pretty much been the reality of this situation the past three decades -- !!!

However, like those who still believe in a free press --

there are still those who cannot absorb this reality!!!

[truebrit71]

31. Because Harry Reid is a ball-less wimp and folds at every threat of a filibuster from the rethugs...

...once.....just fucking once I'd like him to actually call the fuckers on it and make them actually filibuster...


I know, I know...fat fucking chance...

[cascadiance]

34. OR is an underground complicit corporatist in keeping real change from happening!

Either way, he's a FAILURE for the American people. Time for either Feingold or Boxer to take over...

We need a BOXER REBELLION in the Senate!

[truebrit71]

37. That would be sweet...I would really like to see that...if only just to watch Imhofe's head explode.

...

[defendandprotect]

61. You know . . . this is like we're all HAMLET over and over again . . .

wondering what's really going on.

Jim Garrison made that excellent connection long ago in summing up the impact

the coup on our "people's government" had on us in the assassination of JFK.

You think you know . . . but you don't really have the evidence in your hand....

[Uncle Joe]

39. Because the Republicans have three advantages.

1. The Republicans are more unified in their worship of all things corporate or mega-wealthy, when money from up top says jump, the Republican's only needed reply, is how high? The Democratic Party representing a broad cross section of the American People as a whole are easier to splinter off as some will gladly compromise on their ideals, if they truly have any ideals for financial gain or perceived political security.

2. Being overwhelmingly controlled by corporate and or oligarch interests, the Republican Party want weaker ineffective government as a matter of course making it easier for corporations to run roughshod over the American People's best interests without a viable watchdog to protect them. So not passing a critical stimulus bill that would help the American People is perceived as a more of a win situation by those Republicans in power because it matches their ideals, particularly during the term of a Democratic President. Democrats on the other hand for the most part want government to work, so when a Republican President is in power, some Democrats are more likely to try compromising on some issues in order to receive a few bones or again as a matter of perceived political security.

3. The corporate media as an institution has a primary agenda that matches more closely that of the Republican Party. The corporate media's clients are primarily corporations and or oligarchs which can afford to pay for their commercials. The corporate media primarily view the American People as only customers to be sold a product or down the river if it benefits the corporate media's clients. As a result, during critical times like this, the corporate media give Republicans a monopoly on air time with their mass one way megaphone to sow seeds of doubt, fear and or spew their propaganda in order to make the Republicans out as the good guys for stalling a much needed national rescue package until the corporate media's clients; many of whom are responsible for putting us in this mess in the first place, get more favorable terms. To achieve this goal, the corporate media will also abuse their power of mass persuasion by first distracting or diluting the American People's attention with mild, minor or nonsensical slams against a Democratic President such as wearing no coat in the oval office in order to stall positive political momentum and to set the sting up.

[defendandprotect]

62. Gonna have to disagree . . .

Government has been corrupted and one major way that has happened is the Nixon way ---

he was solicited by a small group of Repugs -- Prescott Bush prominently -- and served

them in every dishonest way they demanded. Nixon was a crook and willing to serve other

crooks.

Let me assure you that crooks know who they are hiring --- that's how John Dean made it

to the White House!!

Dems have a little tricker job --- if their tilt torward the corporate/DLC becomes too

obvious, idiots like us may move on. They have to look like the opposition.

And we keep hoping!!!

[SoCalDem]

41. because they knew that dems would not filibuster

and we know they WILL..

[natrat]

43. one party rule in action

[NM Independent]

46. "60 - a pair"

:rofl:

No shit!!

[JCMach1]

47. Because they threatened dems with the 'nuclear' option if they ever fillibustered

maybe it's time to give as good as get!

[Prophet 451]

48. Because teh R's are bastards

Seriously. I could dress it up in fancier language and talk about filibusters and super-majorities but the basic gist is that teh R's are bastards who will obstruct anything our side tries to do.

[bigtree]

49. because there isn't any 'moderate' number of republicans to bend to liberal initiatives

. . . but there's a ready number of Democrats who regularly bend to conservative blackmail.

[defendandprotect]

63. There actually used to be Republicans who voted with Dems --- long ago ---

That's why they moved to situations like "The Hammer" -- and sending them all out

robot like having memorized taped recordings sent to them of talking points.

All of them on message --- not deviating.

That's why they co-opted the Democratic Party. It used to be quite persuasive!!

[KoKo]

50. Harry Reid...The Winp of Nevada...n/t

[backscatter712]

51. Harry Reid is exactly why Republicans needed 50, but Democrats need 60.

Fucking jellyfish. :mad:

[kiva]

56. Good explaination on this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8178011

[BlooInBloo]

58. Because Reid is utterly worthless.

[defendandprotect]

64. We've all known this for two years . . . !!! Now what????

There will be more legislation and more of this BS going down....