A tankless hot water heater and solar panels on every sunshine state roof!

[lonestarnot]

Would this be an economy unto itself?

[elizfeelinggreat]

1. Sounds wonderful

A couple of big hurdles, though.

First and largest, $$$! Then the communities that still think solar panels lower their property values. I/You may not agree with that but it's very entrenched. Is there a magic wand that can wipe that one away?

[lonestarnot]

2. Ugh yes.

The monthly bill.

[global1]

5. Need To Change The Mindset Of Communities That Think Solar Panels Lower.....

their property values - to - if you don't have solar panels on your roof - that lowers the property values. Need to get people to think that solar is good and cool and without it - it's bad and uncool.

[samplegirl]

3. Jimmy Carter

was ahead of his time.

[elizfeelinggreat]

17. Way ahead

What a shame that Reagan took the solar panels off the White House.

[Stellabella]

38. That was more than a shame; it was a crime.

That asshole Reagan also stopped incentives and research into alternative energy. This mess all starts with him.

[elizfeelinggreat]

46. heh

I never miss an opportunity to tell anyone who complains about the price of electricity that Reagan took the solar panels off the White House. :)

[lonestarnot]

48. meh. My hatred of that clownasshat has never subsided.

[ejpoeta]

50. i wonder where we would be today had reagan

not undone all the efforts towards alternative energies and such. grr.

[Robb]

4. Another hurdle: tankless water heaters themselves.

...And I say this with an awful lot of plumbing under my belt. :)

The units are expensive to purchase, require their own venting (which increases install cost), and frankly are a little untested for long-term maintenance costs. Assuming those are under control, there's still the issue I've seen where people who have them really use the heck out of them.

Sort of the way a dog adapts to the size of his living area, families tend to "grow" their hot water use to fit the size of their tank. :)

Another issue: more powerful units are needed in other climates, where the ground water is colder. You can get away with a $2K unit in CA, but you might need a bigger one in CO. Compare this with a really good "regular" new tank at $500-800, and you'll need some serious tax credits or something to make it pay off.

[RC]

6. How long do the tankless units last compared to the tank heaters?

Assuming 'normal' usage for each.

[Robb]

11. That's a question of much debate among the pros

Standard line for a tank heater: be ready to replace it within the decade. But some conk out sooner, and some are carefully maintained (replacing anode rods and what-not) for 20 years.

No one's sure about the tankless ones yet, because there's really no data. The "sense" is they'll likely last the same amount of time, but there's also likely to be more to maintaining them -- just because there's more to them. But folks aren't sure.

[lonestarnot]

16. Mass production and mass implementationn would lower the cost of repair and all parts manufactured

in the states would be of MASS benefit! MASS is the key word as in millions of jobs, one on every house, business, government building.

[TexasProgresive]

60. Maybe no data here in the US

but when we were in Ireland in 1992 that is the only kind of water heater we saw. They were electric, facility oriented and instant on. The Irish had other ways of conserving. One was a storage heater that only drew power during the off hours. This made use of generating capacity when demand was low.

[supernova]

7. That's why I didn't do it ultimately

I really want one, but it's just too expensive right now to make it worth it. I had to replace an old table top unit, but a tankless system would have cost about 3K with panels. The new standard model cost me $2300 as it is.

edit: At some future time, I'm still hoping to add solar panels.

[Old Codger]

20. New ones out?

I have recently seen commercial for a new one out that advertises for $272.00 and a DIY installation. Also this is one ad I found.

http://www.buytankless.com/store.html?cat=Products

[Robb]

24. I'd be very, very wary.

My gut says if it's powerful enough to heat water to 110-120 instantly, it's going to need its own vent (i.e. not shared with say, a furnace). And that price seems awfully low, but who knows. Goodness knows I haven't seen it all, not by a long shot. :)

Anything is a DIY installation, depending on who the "Y" is. :D But it's easy to get in over your head on these -- is the gas line adequate, for example, or do you need to run a new stub?

[supernova]

27. I wasn't willing to do gas

I'm strictly an electric operation.

Gas scares me.

[Old Codger]

61. Not Sure

I am not sure what the one in the commercial is, gas or electric, I would not think that a gas installation would be very DIY, to many possibilities for deadly mistakes there, I would do it but I have a lot of experience at all of that. The one I have seen advertised I assume to be electric as they say it is an easy install, not just DIY. I do not watch much tv but I will keep an eye out for the ad and see who it is.

Here is a link to a price comparison page some are pretty cheap...


http://www.smarter.com/se--qq-tankless%2Bwater%2Bheater.html

[Hassin Bin Sober]

8. What about solar hot water heaters?

I've seen (on The Green Channel) them installed in Philadelphia row-houses. On cold over-cast days the units they installed were putting out 110 degree water.

That seems like the way to go.

(BTW, love your bathroom pics over at the DIY forum)

[Robb]

15. They're cool, and work well. There's a lot here in CO

...Seems like there was a big tax credit for them here at one point, my memory's foggy but a whole lot went in. Mostly, as I've seen it, to make having a swimming pool in Colorado remotely affordable. :D

Anyhoo, they're great, a lot to put in and a little spendy, but everyone I've known with one says they're a great addition to a standard system. I've only heard of one that failed, and it was a doozy, though. :D

[liberal N proud]

9. I know the girls in my house would give one a run for its money

They empty a tank water heater when they are in the shower. I have turned down the temp and even gone down and shut off the hot water to get them out sooner.

As their father, I can't pull them out. I am not sure where they learned to live in the shower like that. It is not something we taught them when they were younger.

[lonestarnot]

30. I recommend daddy boot camp. :)

Ever had a 2 minute shower?

[WolverineDG]

32. It's a teen-age girl thing, Dad

Trust me. ;)

dg

[liberal N proud]

57. I know, been through it before

And it will only last a few years.

Just trying to get though to them and make them aware of the waste, the impact to the environment and our wallet.

[donco6]

10. We've installed them in our new school building.

They work great, and the utilities cost is significantly less. Kitchen demand has had no problems, and water temp is always at the required level.

So far, I highly recommend them.

[lonestarnot]

12. Woodamnwhooooo!

Congratulations! At school, smart school board apparently, no?

[donco6]

31. They are the best board I've ever worked with.

We did a short presentation on why on-demand made the most sense for schools (little hot water use in general, except for the kitchen, where they need unlimited supply at a constant temp for santitation reasons). They gave thumbs up. Along with all the other green elements we put into that school, it's by far our lowest-cost utility bill.

[Robb]

19. Way cool

That's someplace it makes sense, you can work out a bond issue to amortize the cost of the thing and come out ahead. :thumbsup:

[lonestarnot]

13. That does it then! Put all the millions out of work to work producing them! A comeback in manufact

uring!

[tsuki]

26. I have had experience with them. They are very expensive and produce

limited hot water. They constantly break down, and the warranty is worth zip if you do not invest in an expensive maintenance package every year.

Timers are great.

[lonestarnot]

28. They can be improved no?

[tsuki]

33. Tankless, I don't think so. I'd rather solar, but for the short term we

placed a timer on our water heater. Our electric bill went down.

Edit: I forgot to ask--How the Hell are ya doin'?

[lonestarnot]

35. Well, lemesee.

Unemployed until Monday. :P Doggie's eye worse, rain expected :P (that's a good thing here), demeanor good, outlook optimistic, still fighting like a hellion and thinking up storms, big guy doing very well, scaring the shit out of me with the learning to drive, fucking depends are so expensive these days! :P And you my dear?

[tsuki]

63. Retired and tired. Taking care of Mom (she's living with us.)

Son off to where-ever. Husband's job about to end. Was bipartisan'd out of the stimulus bill. D

Driving is scary, but wait tell when he tells you he's off to see the world.

[donco6]

34. We've had ours installed for about 4 years and not had a problem.

??

Rinnai brand.

[lonestarnot]

37. That is the only brand I hear about! Sounds like they need some serious competition!

:applause:

[donco6]

42. It was hard getting quotes.

We finally did a sole source. Nothing really offered the specs we had.

[lonestarnot]

45. Wonder why?

Sole source?

[donco6]

49. You can get around competitive bidding . . .

. . . if there's no one else that offers a product that meets your needs.

[lonestarnot]

52. Mass production, more competition, union from start-up, liveable wage, more responsive to quoting.

:D

[tsuki]

39. That is the one that I have had the most problems with. nt

[lonestarnot]

41. Union workers could improve on them!

:D

[msongs]

43. huh??? our tankless gas wall water heater only cost $500 + $200 install and works great! nt

[LaydeeBug]

55. I can find a tankless water heater for about $700, so your 2K number is off I think...

http://www.drillspot.com/products/349636/Bosch_425HN_NG_Tankless_Water_Heater

[Robb]

59. Well, it might work for your needs

Specs on the one you link to call for 2.1 gallons per minute to get a 90-degree temp rise... that's darned slow flow, IMO. Figure at the high-end, with two showers going at the same time, you want maybe 5 gpm ideally, you can live with less... 4.2 GPM @ 45F Rise, per the specs... 40-degree water out of the ground, if you're in CA (in CO we look for 34-degree ground water), 85-degree water is kind of "meh" to me.

That's all "worst case scenario," though, which is what you plumb for. So if it's only one shower ever going, you might make it OK. :)

Edited to add: I guess it's closer to 50 degrees in the ground in CA, so add that to my remedial math. :)

[LaydeeBug]

62. I was looking into this for a Spring/Summer Project.

Maybe I need to look for a bigger unit? :shrug:

[izquierdista]

14. Tanks a lot

There was once a time when solar panels WITH hot water tanks was the modern way to live comfortably. If you look at pictures of Los Angeles from 100 years ago, you will see many houses with solar panels that were connected to their hot water tank. They were much better than boiling pots of water on a wood stove to take a bath, and a well insulated tank could even be counted on to have warm (maybe not hot, hot water) in the morning.

There was quite an economy built around the manufacture and installation of solar hot water tanks at that time, and they prospered until the 1930s when piped gas entered the scene and promised hot water any time of the day. That, and the 30 to 40 year life of the solar tanks was coming to an end, and rather than replace with solar, advertising convinced many to go with gas. Besides, it was cheap and plentiful and California would never run out of natural gas! :eyes:

[lonestarnot]

18. And the collector efficiency at the time was?

:eyes:

[izquierdista]

25. Pretty much like it is today

The technology for passive solar hasn't changed much. Black tubing in a "hotbox" is fairly low-tech. Back then, all the water flow was driven by density gradients and convection. Today, it could be made a little more efficient with fluid pumps powered by a solar cell.

The important thing is to actually DO IT! In driving across the southern tier of states, from California to South Carolina, I would estimate that of the acres and acres of rooftops I saw, the percentage with some sort of solar technology would be around 1%, maybe less.

[lonestarnot]

29. So ground projects should get some funding and get the fuck started!

[G_j]

54. if there could be funding found

to do one block, one neighborhood at a time, then also use these as showcases in search of further funding.

[G_j]

21. too smart, too simple

just give the money to the banks. :shrug:

[Robb]

22. No, no, you misread

We're talking about increasing the amount of available hot water. Bankers only deal in heated air. ;)

[lonestarnot]

23. Use the banks! Make them fund it! Order them to fund it if they take bail money.

[Romulox]

36. I'll pay for the sunbelt's hot water heaters if they will pay for the midwest's furnaces.

Otherwise, nope.

[lonestarnot]

40. With ingenuity, perhaps the sunbelt could send midwest residue power on the cost of implementation.

:shrug: That coupled with wind power. The wind should be harnessed too!

[Romulox]

44. Most sunbelt states are net tax recipients, and most midwestern are net tax donors

So I won't hold my breath.

[lonestarnot]

47. I do not have the facts on that, can you provide a link please?

[Romulox]

51. Here's one.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/8229012/Tax-Donor-or-Contrib-States

[lonestarnot]

53. 1995?

[Romulox]

56. " '05" means 2005. nt

[ixion]

58. in my opinion: yes it would

it would help the construction industry a great deal, among others.