DNA Clears Man Who Died in Texas Prison - Judge: "Saddest Case I've Ever Seen"

[K Gardner]

This should be a clear message to advocates of the death penalty. And even though we keep seeing these cases, people are still being executed and there is no moratorium in sight in many states.




AUSTIN, Texas (Feb. 7) - A man who died in prison while serving time for a rape he didn't commit was cleared Friday by a judge who called the state's first posthumous DNA exoneration "the saddest case" he'd ever seen. State District Judge Charles Baird ordered Timothy Cole's record expunged.

Cole was convicted of raping a Texas Tech University student in Lubbock in 1985 and was sentenced to 25 years in prison. He died in 1999 at age 39 from asthma complications.
DNA tests in 2008 connected the crime to Jerry Wayne Johnson, who is serving life in prison for separate rapes. Johnson testified in court Friday that he was the rapist in Cole's case and asked the victim and Cole's family to forgive him.

"I'm responsible for all this. I'm truly sorry for my pathetic behavior and selfishness. I hope and pray you will forgive me," Johnson said.

The Innocence Project of Texas said Cole's case was the first posthumous DNA exoneration in state history.

(snip)

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/02/06/texas.exoneration/?iref=mpstoryview

http://news.aol.com/article/dna-clears-man-who-died-in-prison/324881

Tim's Brother

[ChairmanAgnostic]

1. won't be the last, especially in texass.

[midnight]

3. Isn't this the state where prisons for profit started?

[K Gardner]

5. No idea.. I only know that Bush loved his job of signing death warrants at an unprecedented

number.

[Baby Snooks]

10. It sure is...

And some of them are owned in part by Dick Cheney - the real problem in Texas is the poor get court appointed attorneys who don't care about guilt or innocence. All they care about is moving the case quickly and moving on to the next one - working whatever deal they can with a prosecutor and trying to get the defendant to accept a plea bargain. And when they don't, well, suffice it to say the attorney just sits there. Some of them have been caught sleeping during the trial.

As long as the court appointed attorneys represent defendants in Texas there will be innocent people convicted and sent to prison. And to death row. The Republicans prefer things just the way they are. Since it tends to keep minorities in their place. Mainly in prison.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

18. Texas first, then Florida.

Florida at one time, spent almost a BILLION dollars for building new prisons. Texas was the only state with a higher budget.

Considering that most of the people they put away are there for victimless crimes . . . . what a waste. Imagine spending that on early education instead.

[Frisbee]

117. Hmmmm..

I wonder if Texas and Florida have anything in common??? Nothing comes to mind, but I'll keep thinking about it, there must be something.

[bluesmail]

28. Thank you for mentioning Cheney's name in connection with prison for

profits. That story was not even heard 'round America. I salute the DA (?) who tried to try Cheney.

[Ms. Toad]

112. The real problem is not that the poor get court appointed counsel,

but that the pay for court appointed counsel is so low that one of two things happens - (1) counsel who can earn a living elsewhere won't take cases (criminal defense work is pretty much universally scorned anyway, particularly since most people assume that anyone charged with a crime is guilty - if not of what s/he is charged with, then something else) or (2) those who choose to do the work don't have access to the resources needed to adequately defend their clients.

Court appointed counsel is necessary - that is the only reason that indigent defendants get any defense. Court appointed counsel should, however, be paid at the same rate and have the same access to state provided resources that the prosecutor's staff has.

[Texasgal]

2. This story is indeed sad...

I've been following it in the local news.

It's gut-wrenching what happened to this man. :cry:

[FreakinDJ]

4. Over 30% of men serving time for Rape were Falsely Convicted

Check Project Innocents the numbers and cases were really too much

[TahitiNut]

6. Guilt is irrelevant ...

... when revenge and deterrence are rousing the rabble in outrage and self-righteous zeal.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TahitiNut/586

[FreakinDJ]

11. Of that 30% - 1/4 or 7.5% are Raped in Prison

How Ironic - they say they wish to prevent Rape from happening again by locking these men up

[dysfunctional press]

59. actually, they say that they want to prevent those men from raping innocent victims again.

there's nothing wrong with putting a rapist behind bars. unless you have a better suggestion?

[FreakinDJ]

79. Innocent men getting Raped in Prison

I think I understand your logic

It's an acceptable price to pay (as in "collateral Damage") when innocent men get raped in prison because we are trying to protect women

Brilliant!!!

[dysfunctional press]

94. and your alternative to the current process would be....?

it's always easy to throw stones- anyone can do it- try using them to lay a foundation instead.

so- what is your solution? specifically? and remember, dna evidence technology has improved GREATLY since cases like this were being tried.

[Butch350]

95. I guess the woman thought any ole man would do? Yes he did it.

But I forgot, most men look alike anyway.

[Recursion]

101. Not "most men". Not to put to fine a point on it...

...but check the skin color of the falsely-accused.

[FreakinDJ]

114. These cases are "Positive Identification" by the women

Why is it so difficult to understand that some times women lie

Oh No!!!!!!! We can't dare question her character in court

PURE BULLSHIT

[varkam]

81. Yeah - hows about making sure they're guilty *before* you put them in jail?

Just a thought.

[dysfunctional press]

93. first you have to get women to stop lying about who's guilty...

any suggestions on that?

[varkam]

97. First off - I'm pretty sure that most people aren't perjuring themselves.

Being mistaken isn't the same as lying.

One suggestion that I would have is to fully fund defender's offices. Politicians have no problem when it comes to funding prosecutor's offices - but when the public starts to value one over the other we get a kangaroo court system. Many defenders across the nation are at the breaking point at the moment. Hell, the DPA in my own state recently filed a lawsuit against the state to allow them to reject any new cases because they can't adequately defend the cases that they already have.

Thinking being, maybe if the accused get an attorney who has the time to give the case the attention that it needs, we might cut down on the need for post-conviction exonerations.

[dysfunctional press]

98. dna technology and techniques have come a LONG way since the op case was tried...

so it's not really fair to use it as a comparison to cases being tried now.

but- i do think that any past cases where current technology could be used to determine the truth of the cases and/or legitimacy of the convictions should definitely be looked at.

[varkam]

99. Of course, there's not always DNA evidence in cases of rape.

The perpetrator could have used a condom and gloves. Sometimes the only evidence is based on eyewitness testimony.

And if there was DNA in past cases, sometimes it gets destroyed, lost, etc

[LisaL]

134. Well,

it's obvious to me that ID by itself without any corroborating evidence isn't exactly reliable.

[wellst0nev0ter]

150. There Was A Ton Of Exculpatory Evidence

That the prosecutor amazingly did not consider or make available when he put that young black man in jail. Maybe we can start from that.

[dysfunctional press]

58. and besides, "women don't lie about rape..."

that's one sometimes feminist attitude that really chaps my hide.

[Vektor]

72. A woman doesn't need to lie about rape for the wrong person to be put in prison.

She may very well be telling the truth that she was raped, and still have the wrong person go to jail.

If she were intoxicated, drugged, attacked in the dark, beaten unconscious, or any other number of horrible things, she may not be able to remember her attacker enough to pick him out of a line-up, but the police, DA, etc, may pick-up the wrong guy, and he may be convicted, regardless.

Women, like children, USUALLY do not lie about rape, and in the event that a few screwed up, misguided individuals do, it should not prevent anyone from fully investigating any accusation of rape.

[varkam]

82. It doesn't even have to be a special circumstance...

eyewitness testimony and identification are notoriously unreliable as is - and that's on a good day.

[Vektor]

124. Very true.

It just sickens me to hear the mentality that immediately says "blame the victim." It's rampant on this thread.

[4 t 4]

140. Eye Witness

accounts are the most unreliable. Don't you watch "law and order" no seriously eye witnesses are such a big problem to justice

[FreakinDJ]

80. FBI study found 40% of Rape Claims - FALSE

It was a study conducted on 5 college campuses so I am sure there was a maturity factor involved

[MidwestTransplant]

7. Was the victim white? They guy didn't stand a chance if so.

[fortyfeetunder]

26. White victim, all white jury

that's all it took....

[anonymous171]

37. That's what I figured. nt

[renate]

8. this is so tragic

His life thrown away for nothing. And he never even knew he'd be exonerated someday. :cry:

[democrank]

9. Rest in peace, Timothy Cole.

I`m so sorry.

[Tigress DEM]

35. Amen.

In a new world order where every black face is not perceived as a threat, may this kind of thing decrease until some children have no idea why anyone would be prejudiced of someone because of the color of their skin. "But mama, we're all human, right?"

[TahitiNut]

12. ...

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

[GaYellowDawg]

13. This is a horrible case - and I am really having to reevaluate my views.

There are so many hugely emotional issues to this. On the one hand, you've got cases like this. On the other hand, what about horrific crimes where the justice system has convicted the right person? I really am beginning to think that the retribution exacted by the death penalty for terrible crimes is not worth cases like this.

I'm really beginning to think that we've got to rethink our approach to the justice system. We talk about prisoners "paying their debt to society" - but how, exactly is that debt repaid when we are paying to have them locked up? When taxpayers pay to have prisoners walled off from everyone else?

I think it's time to take a hard look at doing a couple of things. First, I've heard a whole lot about how there are jobs that Americans won't do because the work is too hard for low pay. OK - let's get some able-bodied prisoners and put them to work. Put them to work on the roads, and picking strawberries, and so forth. And require them to take classes. I mean require. Make them earn their GED or degrees in prison, so that they have marketable skills when they get out. Fill up their entire day with work and school. Reward people who do really good work on the jobs and get high grades in their classes with reduced sentences.

Here in Georgia, I've seen prisoners picking up trash from the highways. I'd bet that's at least better than sitting in a jail cell, but what good does it do them? Give them something to do that they can take pride in.

[K Gardner]

15. This is a wonderful post, YellowDawg.. I have many of the same conflicting

feelings. In horrific cases, where guilt is admitted and the crime is unthinkable, it's almost easy to say, "yeah, fry him". But too large the cost, I believe, on society as a whole and the cases where innocence is later found. Too large the price for making a mistake.

I worked with a large inmate population in California, and for the most part, these men were able-bodied and strong and certainly could have been put to work building roads, bridges, etc. There is so much reform to be done. I hope we get around to addressing this, in addition to addressing the injustice in the justice system.

:hi:

[JonLP24]

19. More food for thought

A clear majority of countries have abolished the death penalty in law or practice, leaving the USA out of step on this fundamental human rights issue. The death penalty in the United States remains an act of racial injustice as well as one which extends the suffering of one family – that of the murder victim – to another, the loved ones of the condemned prisoner. Abolition is the only solution to this cruel, inhuman, degrading and irrevocable punishment.

The McCleskey obstacle

"To prevail under Clause, petitioner must prove that the decision-makers in his case acted with discriminatory purpose… Because discretion is essential to the criminal justice process, exceptionally clear proof is required before this Court will infer that the discretion has been abused." US Supreme Court, McCleskey v Kemp (1987).

A defining moment on this issue came in 1987, when the US Supreme Court rejected the appeal of Warren McCleskey, an African American man condemned to death in Georgia for the murder of a white police officer. The Justices had been presented with a detailed study showing that defendants who killed whites in Georgia were more than four times more likely to be sentenced to death than those who killed non-whites, a probability that was even higher if the defendant was black and the victim white. A majority of Justices held that "apparent disparities in sentencing are an inevitable part of our criminal justice system", and that for a defendant to be successful in an appeal, he or she would have to provide "exceptionally clear proof" that the decision-makers in his or her particular case had acted with discriminatory intent.(7) Warren McCleskey was executed in 1991. There have been nearly 700 more executions in the USA since then, 80 per cent of them for murders involving white victims.

Dissenting from the McCleskey majority, Justice Brennan wrote: "e cannot pretend that in three decades we have completely escaped the grip of a historical legacy spanning centuries. Warren McCleskey’s evidence confronts us with the subtle and persistent influence of the past… e ignore him at our peril, for we remain imprisoned by the past as long as we deny its influence in the present." Justice Powell, who authored the 5-4 decision, said after he retired from the Court that he wished he had voted differently in the 1987 ruling, and that he had come to think that the death penalty should be abolished.(8) The UN Special Rapporteur on extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions, in his 1998 report on the USA, suggested that the McCleskey decision may be incompatible with the country’s obligations under the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, "which requires States parties to take appropriate steps to eliminate both direct and indirect discrimination".(9)

The McCleskey ruling placed a huge obstacle in the way of defendants seeking to challenge their death sentences on the basis of evidence of racial discrimination in sentencing. In 1994, Girvies Davis, a black man convicted by an all-white jury of the murder of a white victim, appealed on the basis of a study indicating that the murder of a white in Illinois was about six times more likely to lead to a death sentence than the murder of a black, and that a black defendant accused of killing a white was 3.75 times more likely to be sentenced to death than a white charged with killing another white person. The federal court wrote that "our analysis begins and ends with McCleskey v Kemp", and rejected the appeal.(10) Davis was executed in 1995. The following year, the Missouri Supreme Court rejected statistical and anecdotal evidence of county-level prosecutorial discrimination, stating that the defendant had failed to show "purposeful discrimination or any effect on his case, specifically".(11) In 1997, the South Carolina Supreme Court ruled that death row inmate Raymond Patterson had "not proven discriminatory purpose by exceptionally clear evidence". Patterson, an African American convicted of the murder of a white man, raised evidence of bias, including that the county prosecutor had sought the death penalty in 13 of the 128 cases involving white victims and none of the 44 cases involving black victims. He also raised other evidence, including of the exclusion of blacks from juries.(12) In 1999, the Oklahoma Court of Criminal Appeals similarly rejected a claim brought by Billy Alverson, a black man convicted by all-white jury, holding that he could not show that he had been the victim of any discrimination specific to his case.(13)

Today, the McCleskey ruling remains an obstacle to progress. For example, in October 2001, the US Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit acknowledged that the disparities on Ohio’s death row were "extremely troubling", but wrote that "McCleskey remains controlling law on the ability of statistically-based arguments concerning racial disparity to establish an unconstitutional application of the death penalty. Although the racial imbalance in the State of Ohio’s capital sentencing system is glaringly extreme, it is no more so than the statistical disparities considered and rejected by the Supreme Court in McCleskey". (14)

The McCleskey decision had said that the issue of death penalty bias was a matter "best presented to the legislative bodies". In 1994, however, an attempt to introduce a national Racial Justice Act, which would have allowed defendants to challenge their death sentences by producing statistical evidence of racial discrimination in the judicial process, failed. To date, Kentucky is the only state to have enacted a Racial Justice Act, which it did in 1998.

Many legislators are still failing to grasp the nettle. On 18 March 2003, Senators in Maryland rejected legislation to impose a moratorium on executions there in light of research indicating that the race of the murder victim played a significant role in capital sentencing. Opponents of the bill included one Senator who had argued, in words that echoed the McCleskey majority, that "the system is as fair as it possibly can be. Unfortunately, there are disparities".(15) All of the African American members of the Senate voted to approve the moratorium. All 14 of the Republican Senators voted against the bill.(16)
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/AMR51/046/2003/en/dom-AMR510462003en.html

The DP has got to go. It certainly isn't enforced fairly.

BTW, he had asthma complications and wasn't executed but they way the DP is handled today it is wrong.

[lostnotforgotten]

22. The Movie Shawshank Redemption Does A Good Job Demonstrating How Chain Gangs Are Abused For Profit

eom

[GaYellowDawg]

48. Can't disagree with that at all. However...

I think you could make clear regulations that would prevent that; I'm sure the guards and warden would rather oversee the work than join it.

[Tansy_Gold]

24. It's very easy to say no.

I have had this argument with BF many times. Whatever lurid scenario he proposes, I simply answer "No."

What if he tortured and killed a child?
No.

What if he poisoned your dog?
No.

What if? What if? What if?
No. No. No.


That way there is NEVER a chance that the wrong person will be executed. That way there's NEVER a debate over whether the death penalty is "justified." That way there's never a chance that it will be applied unfairly in a race-based, gender-based, or any other -based manner.

It's very easy to say "no."


Try it. You'll like it.


Tansy Gold

[Butch350]

100. Wait a minute...poison my dog and your a goner! End of story!

[Tansy_Gold]

127. You don't know me and MY dogs.

All four of 'em.

The answer is still no.


And no :sarcasm: either.


No.

[dysfunctional press]

31. "Give them something to do that they can take pride in."

why can't they take pride in a clean stretch of highway?

[GaYellowDawg]

46. You know, I don't know how to answer that.

I suppose it's because it's cleaning up other people's messes. And because picking up trash is considered a demeaning job by a lot of people. I don't know. I guess I think that doing something where they create is important.

[dysfunctional press]

56. someone's got to clean the highways though...

and as a former construction site laborer- i can tell you that it's a good feeling when you make a disaster area(figuratively speaking) look like new.
and as far as prisoners being creative...maybe they could have a hand in the landscape design/installation along those same stretches of highway.

[Doctor_J]

136. Unfortunately, this execution and the others like it (innocent people) overrule ALL arguments

in favor of capital punishment, IMO. Personally, I don't find it "barbaric" or "cruel & unusual". If it were possible to take out the human error factor to complete rule out cases like this one, I might be convinced to become pro-CP. But it ISN'T possible.

When George Ryan suspended the death penalty in IL, half of the people on death row were innocent. There is no reason for me to believe that 1/2 of the 150 people that * executed while TX governor were innocent as well. I don't believe that most governors are blood-thirsty sociopaths like Smirk, but they get caught up in the canard that revenge = justice, and so think they are doing their constituents a good turn by signing death warrants.

Also, here in the US we executed children, retarded people, an innocent people, and still have the highest crime rate and murder rate in the civilized world. So it obviously isn't a deterrent.

No one is happier than I am that Ted Bundy is dead. But it also saddens me that We The People took his life.

[Garbo 2004]

14. The actual rapist confessed his crime in 1995. The guy was mailing his confession to DA, court

etc for years and no one responded or took action until he sent a letter to what he thought was Cole's address and it reached Cole's family.

NPR story/audio: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=100249923

[K Gardner]

16. thank you for posting this link.. heartwrenching.

[LisaL]

17. If somebody had done something, even in 1995, Cole

might have gotten out of prison alive.
How atrocious.

[John Q. Citizen]

29. Yep, and what gets me is that the rapist was a chain smoker according to the victim and Cole was an

asthmatic who never smoked in his life.

You might have thought that the cops or the DA would have wondered about that discrepancy.

Plus the fact that Cole was playing cards with five or six people at the time the crime was committed.

Not to mention that the defense suggested that the real rapists might be the responsible party since he was convicted of a very similar crime around the same time in the same general vicinity. And he was a chain smoker.


So some people didn't do their jobs and a poor black guy and his family paid with his life. and the perp escaped on that charge. The poor original rape victim was also betrayed by the cops/DA/Judge and made to wonder if she's somehow responsible.

I wonder how they came upon Cole in the first place? What in the the cops investigation led to Cole being in the botched photo line up?

[Garbo 2004]

34. Cops had taken Cole's pic when he was being questioned as a witness in an unrelated theft case.

They included his pic in the photo line up. No relation to the crime, no evidence. The victim ID'd the wrong guy and from that point on the lack of evidence against him and evidence of his innocence didn't matter to the cops/prosecution. And to the jury, evidently.

"About a month later, she was asked to review a photo lineup of possible suspects. Blackburn says she picked out Cole, not knowing the photo was taken when Cole — who had no criminal record — was being questioned by police as a possible witness in an unrelated theft case." http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-02-03-exoneration_N.htm

[John Q. Citizen]

36. I also read that in the original photo ID, only Cole was a Polaroid, the others being booking photos

So the victim picked the different picture.

I would imagine that Lubbock TX PD or sheriff or Rangers or who ever has the job of doing the ID would have known in 1985 that all the photos needed to be in the exact same format.

And I still wonder how an unrelated photo in an unrelated case came into the lineup. Who else was put in the line up and why? Who in the line up did the cops suspect?

[lostnotforgotten]

20. As Long As Bush Resides In Texas - The Texas Executions Will Continue

eom

[BlooInBloo]

21. Death penalty supporters simply don't care about innocent deaths. Not one bit.

[LisaL]

27. Is it so much better when an innocent person dies in prison, like

this guy did?

[BlooInBloo]

32. (facepalm)

At least there's a *chance* at correcting error/malfeasance when the guy is in jail, as opposed to killed directly.

This is life. There are never guarantees.

[wolfgangmo]

119. Lisa

Of course the supporters are OK with the innocent dying in prison. Keep in mind their mindset.

It is the same one that is OK with illegal wiretaps because "you wouldn't worry about it unless you were guilty of something." They figure that none of the ponzi scams, tax evasions, or other rip offs they are involved in are illegal, and therefore anyone who has been accused is guilty.

So to their minds there are no innocents in prison. Here is a quote of my RW relative/idiot. "If they aren't there for what they were arrested then they just weren't caught for the crime they did commit."

[John Q. Citizen]

33. They care from a PR perspective. Every wrongful conviction undermines the death penalty.

As it should.

[JI7]

47. isn't 1 wrongful conviction enough ?

[John Q. Citizen]

51. One's too many and 100 ain't enough

[Tigress DEM]

39. That's a statement that may be true of some people, but not all.

The REAL crime is that so many of the "criminals" in prison are really guilty of little more than DWB* in the vicinity of a crime.

Innocent people should not be put to death, but serial killers/rapists who have been convicted with DNA evidence should not be allowed to continue their crime sprees.

Victims of brutal crimes need to be protected from predators and if someone can be conclusively proven to have done a heinous crime based on solid evidence I don't see why the taxpayers should have to support that criminal - especially when a lot of them get tossed out to make room for more.

Give the person time to make peace and end it. Humanely, but definitively. Some of these people (sociopaths) are possibly genetically incapable of feeling any remorse for their crimes.

But anyone who may be innocent, never. In fact death sentence should be reserved for offenders proven conclusively guilty of multiple violent crimes, in my opinion.

Death penalty is like war. All other options should be reviewed first. It should never be used if there isn't conclusive evidence and a pattern of violent criminal behavior but if those who feel they can get away with murder are able to get out of the consequences of their actions time after time it is we the general populace who become the POW's of their war on decency.

Like the war criminals who raped and pillaged our country during the *ush reign of terror. They should pay the full measure for their repeated disregard for human life.

I care about innocent people dying, but if someone refuses to turn away from slaughtering innocent people, then the world is better off without that person in attendence.







(Driving or Drawing breath While Black)

[varkam]

83. I have read posts *right here on DU* say that innocent people who are killed...

are just (and I quote) "unfortunate accidents"

:puke:

[Bluebear]

23. Timothy Cole, America's shame.

As long as we have the mentality that "somebody" has to pay for crimes, even if they had nothing to do with it, these cases will continue. Innocent people will have their lives snatched from them, innocent people will be barbarically put to death. American "justice". :cry:

[fortyfeetunder]

25. I heard this story twice on NPR Friday morning

I was just livid from listening to it.

I pray nothing like what Cole went through happens to the young Black males I know.

Another tarnished mark on Texas and the USA.

:grr:

[Sirveri]

30. who cares, he's black so he doesn't matter.

Do I need the tag... do I really need it.

[skooooo]

38. Surprise! It's a black guy.

:cry:

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DainBramaged]

42. Tell us, how many false rape accusations do you think happen?

educate us as to the perils of being a woman in a man's doubting world. Tell us why testosterone jacked, muscle head cops won't believe women who claim rape. Do you think they want to be raped? Like our women soldiers in Iraq/ Do tell us how bad these women are..

[aaaaaa5a]

54. Rape is a horrible crime! That's not my point!

My point is falsely accusing someone of rape is also terrible. And it happens more often than you might think. I don't know what anyone here does for a living, but early in my career I worked closely with Police officers. And anyone who is non-political and works in a sexual assault unit will tell you that false rape accusations are far more frequent than the general public realizes.

This doesn't mean rape doesn't occur. It doesn't mean it's not a serious crime. But it does mean there are mistakes. And people are wrongly accused and convicted. And in this sad case, a man died in jail because he was falsely accused of rape. That's my only point. It is relevant to the story.

Below is just a small sampling of this topic. The links include studies from universities, law reviews etc. They include comments from prominent prosecutors who are considered experts on the topic. To be fair, some experts but the false accusation rate at around 25%. But one credible study from Purdue University which is sited below had it at 50%. And ironically that's the same number I was told by law enforcement.

Regardless of where the number actual stands, clearly, false accusations are an issue. And in at least one case we all know of, it cost one man his freedom.


If you want some specific cases on the issue just let me know.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,194032,00.html


Here's a link to another study on false rape accusations.

http://www.ifeminists.net/introduction/editorials/2003/0722.html

If you don't want to read the whole article, the "heart of the study is below.

According to a study conducted by Eugene Kanin of Purdue University, the correct figure may rise to the 40 percent range. Kanin examined 109 rape complaints registered in a Midwestern city from 1978 to 1987. Of these, 45 were ultimately classified by the police as "false." Also based on police records, Kanin determined that 50 percent of the rapes reported at two major universities were "false."


Here is another report citing some studies on the topic. Again the report is long so if you don't want to read the entire article, the primary points are below.

http://www.billoblog.com/billoblog/?p=134

In 1985, a study of 556 rape allegations found that 27% accusers recanted when faced with a polygraph (which can be ordered in the military), and independent evaluation showed a false accusation rate of 60%. (McDowell, Charles P., Ph.D. “False Allegations.” Forensic Science Digest, (publication of the U.S. Air Force Office of Special Investigations), Vol. 11, No. 4 (December 1985), p. 64.)

---------snip---------------

A “Washington Post� investigation of rape reports in seven Virginia and Maryland counties in 1990 and 1991 found that nearly one in four were unfounded. When contacted by the Post, many of the alleged victims admitted that they had lied.

It is true, of course, that not every accuser who recants had accused falsely. But it is also true that some who do not recant were not telling the truth.

According to a 1996 Department of Justice Report, of the roughly 10,000 sexual assault cases analyzed with DNA evidence over the previous seven years, 2,000 excluded the primary suspect, and another 2,000 were inconclusive. The report notes that these figures mirror an informal National Institute of Justice survey of private laboratories, and suggests that there exists “some strong, underlying systemic problems that generate erroneous accusations and convictions.”

That false allegations are a major problem has been confirmed by several prominent prosecutors, including Linda Fairstein, who heads the New York County District Attorney’s Sex Crimes Unit. Fairstein, the author of “Sexual Violence: Our War Against Rape,â€? says, “there are about 4,000 reports of rape each year in Manhattan. Of these, about half simply did not happen.”

Craig Silverman, a former Colorado prosecutor known for his zealous prosecution of rapists during his 16-year career, says that false rape accusations occur with “scary frequency.” As a regular commentator on the Bryant trial for Denver’s ABC affiliate, Silverman noted that “any honest veteran sex assault investigator will tell you that rape is one of the most falsely reported crimes.” According to Silverman, a Denver sex-assault unit commander estimates that nearly half of all reported rape claims are false.

[Cerridwen]

43. Erm, 50% = 100%?! Care to read what you wrote again?

"All the time" = 100%. You got that right? Then your "reliable police detective" said 50%. Take a stance, any stance, but try to remain consistent, k?

Did your "reliable police detective" back up his opinion with statistics? Or did he just say something that "confirmed" his and your prejudices?

That would be reported cases, right? In case you missed it the first time, that was reported cases. Have you read the stats on the number (calculated number) of unreported cases?

From the article (that you didn't read?):

But there was one detail: Mallin told police her attacker was a smoker. "He was smoking the entire time."

Cole, who suffered from severe asthma, "was never a smoker," said his brother, Cory Session. "He took daily medications when he was younger."

Sounds like a good cop (or two) would have questioned the ID, no? Hmm, methinks your "reliable police detective" would have not followed through on this, maybe.

Also from the article:

Mallin is helping them. "I was very traumatized," she said. "I was scared for my life. I tried my hardest to remember what he looked like.

"I'm trying to get his name cleared. It's the right thing to do."

Cory Session said, "We don't blame Michele. She's very gracious."

Do you understand trauma? Do you understand what rape does to a person (it ain't just women who are raped)?

Sounds like the evil woman tried to fix things but those "reliable police detective(s)" wouldn't have nothin' of it.

If you're gonna spew your woman hatred on this board, you might wanna back up your hatred with some fact. Or some of us evil women are gonna rip you a new one.

[aaaaaa5a]

71. Please read my long post on this subject .

and if you read all of my posts in this thread... I never once called anyone "evil" LOL!

[GaYellowDawg]

49. I have a very hard time believing your detective.

I'm not accusing him of lying. I just find his figure hard to believe - I would guess he's vastly overestimating the percentage of false accusations. A woman would have to be either completely evil or crazy to do that, and I don't think that anywhere near 50% of women qualify.

[aaaaaa5a]

55. I know the numbers are hard to believe.

And it's sad that anyone (man or woman) would do that to another person. But it does happen. Please see my above post.

Btw... just to keep some people on this topic calm, it is also sad and in-excusable for anyone to ever sexually assault another person.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

103. I read the above post and to me, it looks like there is also some conflation

of false accusation and mistaken ID.

You said, "Regardless of where the number actual stands, clearly, false accusations are an issue. And in at least one case we all know of, it cost one man his freedom."

--however, in this tragic case, it was mistaken ID, and not false accusation. The woman was not falsely reporting a rape.

That's some very big conflation, there...

Unfortunately, women are often attacked in the dark, from behind, under the infuence of drugs, by more than one man.... etc. Confusing the issues of mistaken identity and false accusation could be seriously harmful to women seeking justice and to protect other women from predators.

I always get very concerned when women's attempts to gain justice and protect themselves from violence are undermined.

[aaaaaa5a]

137. You make a good point!

However I said the accusation was false. Not that a rape didn't occur.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

151. hi aaaa

hope you don't mind if I call you "aaaa" for short... :7

I don't mean to be argumentative here.. I'm just thinking that the other guy said he DID it; the woman was reporting an actual rape. So, unless I missed something, it indicates that she was not making a false accusation, but a mistaken identity.

who knows, the police may have been presenting Cole to her as the perpetrator, and she, not having had a clear ID, assumed they were right....

[aaaaaa5a]

153. I think you are right!

I do believe the woman made an honest mistake. There was no malicious intent on her part. From her side it absolutely was a case of mistaken identity. However an innocent man was falsely accused of rape. And it is also correct to say that this man is a victim of a false rape accusation against him.





Although none of us have any evidence on actual police tactics in this case, I wouldn't doubt your theory on Police behavior. I'm going to do something risky and dare to boast that I have probably had more experience working with law enforcement and researching cases than most people who have been involved in this thread. And I can tell you that Police work is amazingly bad! I don't think the general public has any idea how often law enforcement makes mistakes. And Prosecutors can be some of the most partisan, biased individuals you could ever meet.




Not to go way off topic here. But research what happened with the death penalty cases in Illinois which led to several overturned convictions. Those overturned convictions could have been in any state in the Country. And there is more than ample evidence to show that the same is probably true with rape convictions.




The problem is when anyone attempts to point out the difficulties in the system, it usually falls on deaf ears. Because in my view our society has a tendency to not care about the way the poor, the disadvantaged or the accused are treated. I've heard the term "well he was probably guilty of something!" more times than you could imagine. And I have seen in court how the poor testimony of one police officer or "court expert" can easily "trump" multiple witness and sound evidence in the eyes of an un-informed jury.





I think you see some of that hostility here on this board. I have been called several derogatory names including the highly offensive and ridiculous term "rape sympathizer" simply for pointing out the shocking frequency of false rape accusations. In our society today, it's often easier to support someone making a sexual assault claim, than it is to look at facts objectively to make sure innocent people are not charged for a hideous crime.



Sorry for the rant!




So getting back to the context of your primary argument, yes law enforcement and not the woman are primarily responsible for this tragedy. They bare the brunt of the responsibility.





Your comments are great and in my view they are very welcome to the discussion. And "AAA is fine. Especially considering what I am usually called! LOL!



I'm sorry my posts are so long. I have tendency to be long winded!

[BlancheSplanchnik]

155. oh no apology needed!

hi aaaa,

I go on and on sometimes myself--- as you can see :hide:

I actually appreciated your reply because it was knowledgeable, well-thought out, informative and reasonable, courteous, mature.... however you want to word that. :)

About being called "rape sympathizer", etc... oh I know it's so hard to simmer down when your buttons have been pushed--- and this subject is SUCH a lightning rod.

I know I'm trying to temper my own reactions, knowing that women have struggled for centuries to have the sanctity of their person respected; ha, to even BE a person, in the eyes of their given society...

....and even still, in the 21st century, and in spite of the statistics you cite on false accusations (which I don't doubt. I even have some random thoughts on that..), rape is egregiously UNDEReported.

I've had the experience of an extended stalking and harassment situation some years ago at work. My case was sabotaged by a female boss who sympathetically listened to my story (it was like connecting with a good girlfriend over lattes--naturally I handed over my trust). But then she told HR behind my back that it was...I don't know what she said, but after HR's sudden change of attitude towards me, it obviously was something to the effect that my complaint was not to be taken seriously. Anyway, that was a long weirrrrrd story........

Not a rape anecdote there, but definitely an example of typical roadblocks and ingrained prejudices women are up against. And as you probably also know, violence against women and girls (domestic and otherwise) also has been terribly glossed over historically, as far as meaningful responses to protect women and hold men accountable. (though it does provide powerful titillation for TV networks seeking to punch up ratings).

geez, come to think of it, I've been inappropriately groped a number of times over my life, and either I repressed the desire to seek justice, because I was very young, timid, it came as such a shock, I had no advocate, etc etc etc. Or, I did say something and was poo-pooed..."oh he's a professional, he couldn't have done that. You must be overreacting, misinterpreting, etc etc etc."

I recall reading pretty recently that violent crime has been declining, but violence against women and girls has been on the rise, worldwide.

So, it's not surprising that anything that could be used to make women's battle more difficult would be met with alot of anger, by progressives anyway. (and as you know, statistics showing women victimizing men would be as mustard on a bologna sandwich to those who have anti-woman agendas to grind.)

[LisaL]

50. This was not a case of false accusations.

It was a case of mistaken ID.
It's pretty obvious to me eyewitness ID isn't all that reliable. Even though the juries tend to believe it.

[aaaaaa5a]

53. I'm not debating the fact that the woman was raped.

That is not in dispute. However the person who died in that jail cell, WAS FALSELY ACCUSED. That's my point.

[Lyric]

57. "Falsely accused" implies malicious intent.

As if the woman did it on purpose, when that is not the case. "Misidentified" is more appropriate, and honestly, why WOULD we blame her? She'd just been horrifically traumatized. The police are the ones who failed to do their jobs. Picking someone out of a lineup is not always reliable when you have a traumatized victim. They needed to make a checklist of facts that she DID remember, for sure, and check them against any potential suspects.

The chain-smoking was an enormous one that they completely ignored.

[aaaaaa5a]

60. I think you are right!

That's a good call. I don't believe the woman had malicious intent. And misidentified is probably a more appropriate term. At the same time to some extent we are "playing with words."

The point is in open court... she accused an innocent man of rape.

[Lyric]

61. Sadly, in our less-than-perfect world, mistakes happen.

This is why I oppose the death penalty with every ounce of my being. Because we do not have perfect justice, we have no right to mete out irrevocable penalties. In this case, tragically, he died of natural causes before the truth was discovered. It really is heartbreaking all the way around. But if you're looking to blame someone, blame the REAL rapist. If he hadn't (1) committed rape, and (2) silently allowed another person to be blamed for it, then none of this would have happened. There wouldn't have BEEN a court hearing at which the woman could have make a mistaken accusation.

[aaaaaa5a]

63. To he honest...

First I blame law enforcement. They have a job to only convict those who are guilty. And far to often they do a poor job when it comes to that task.

You are right in that the real rapist is also to blame. In-fact he is the primary culprit. Without his actions everything here is a moot point.

However, why do several posters here have a difficult time acknowledging that this women (who is a victim in her own right) did accuse an innocent man of rape. She is partially responsible for his wrongful conviction. Just because a person is raped, that does not give them the right to "finger anyone" for the crime out of victim-hood status. No, she did not have malicious intent. It was an honest mistake. And I just want to repeat again, the first responsibility in this case lies with law enforcement. But her false accusation or "mistaken" accusation is a part of the story.

A man who was falsely accused of rape died in a Texas jail. That statement is factually accurate.

[Lyric]

65. No, she is NOT partially responsible.

Anybody who blames a victim of horrific trauma for getting memories confused has a seriously twisted view of ethics and morality. The police know that memories of trauma victims can be unreliable and sketchy; god knows mistakes have been made before. A large part of their JOB is to account for that--to say, "We have to be extra-careful to check this out thoroughly, because pain, terror, and shock are not conducive to good memory-making." They didn't do their part--at ALL.

She gave them enough factual information to have MORE than ruled-out the guy in the line-up--the chain-smoking alone should have done that. If they suspected that he might have quit recently just to throw them off, well, it's easy enough for a doctor and a laboratory to verify whether or not someone has only recently stopped smoking. A simple medical exam and a few tests could have confirmed that this guy simply could NOT be the rapist. But they didn't do that. Instead, they based their entire case on circumstantial evidence and the word of a woman who freely acknowledged that she had trouble remembering for sure. When it went to trial, she was convinced that they'd gotten the right guy--after all, they're police, right? It's amazing how fuzzy memories can solidify when there's outside reinforcement--in this case, the police telling her that they were sure this was the guy. Is that her fault? Nope. It's theirs.

The perpetrator has primary responsibility. Shoddy, negligent police work has secondary responsibility. The victim has none. She might blame herself, but it is NOT her fault, not in the least. We do not blame traumatized victims for not being perfect--we blame the police for not taking that trauma into account. They just wanted a black man in jail, and they didn't particularly seem to care whether or not they got the right one. The woman assumed that they'd done their jobs, and that they knew what they were talking about when they told her that they'd caught the rapist.

There's another, sadder aspect that also needs to be taken into account. To put it bluntly--white people are really bad about misidentifying black people. It's the result of a society that doesn't value multiculturalism, and also the result of the way that middle-class whites tend to move away in droves from areas with large black populations. That limits exposure between the races, and interferes with the ability of white people to discern nuance and subtlety in black features. It's an ugly reality that we desperately need to change, but even if this ugliness played a part, it's still not fair to blame this one woman for something that is the fault of our racist society as a whole.

But please--by all means, continue believing in your twisted, warped view of moral finger-pointing. Just stop trying to convince rational people to agree with you. It's not going to happen. You really are all on your own with this one.

[LisaL]

67. Someone doesn't even have to be a victim of trauma to make a

wrong ID. It's easy to make a mistake.

[aaaaaa5a]

69. Nice Try!

Actually, if we follow your logic then we should never use a woman's account to convict a rapist.


These are excerpts of a victims reliability based on your own post.


1)YOU WROTE-"The police know that memories of trauma victims can be unreliable and sketchy; god knows mistakes have been made before."

This is very true. If you read my long post in regard to false accusations, this is a serious problem which sometimes makes a potential victims testimony unreliable.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2)YOU WROTE-"Instead, they based their entire case on circumstantial evidence and the word of a woman who freely acknowledged that she had trouble remembering for sure."

Again, if you read my longer post on this subject you will see that many experts in law enforcement are troubled over these types of situations. DNA evidence on over 10,000 rape cases proves that the potential victim was factually wrong in identifying her attacker at minimum 20% to 40% of the time. (that's based on DNA science, please look it up!) Maybe you are right. Circumstantial evidence alone shouldn't be enough for a conviction in rape cases.

By the way... although 100% NOT RELEVANT IN THIS CASE... you left out motive as a possibility for a false accusation (such as revenge) which drives the error margin rate up even further.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


These are parts of your post I disagreed with.

1YOU WROTE-)"It's amazing how fuzzy memories can solidify when there's outside reinforcement--in this case, the police telling her that they were sure this was the guy. Is that her fault? Nope. It's theirs."

I don't think anyone should be convicted based on "fuzzy memory!"

Plus, could you please site where the police told her they were sure this was the guy????????????????????????????

I think you have the wrong person driving the bus! SHE TOLD POLICE THIS WAS THE GUY! It wasn't the other way around. The police reacted to her assumptions which turned out to be wrong. I will presume that she had several months from the time she first made her initial claim until the trial. And if she waivered in her accusation, she clearly didn't waiver enough!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2)YOU WROTE-"The victim has none. She might blame herself, but it is NOT her fault, not in the least."

I have to disagree. Rape is a terrible crime. Guilty parties should be locked away for long time. But everyone has a responsibility to make sure we are locking up the right people. Just because you are a victim, that shouldn't give you the right to make false accusations without penalty.

For instance, say I was shot and became a paraplegic. Police showed me a lineup. And I picked out a suspect I claimed shot me in "cold blood." Despite strong evidence proving the alleged shooters innocence, the prosecutor proceeds to trail because I am adamant that the suspect is the guilty party. Years later after he dies in jail, evidence turns up proving he is not the shooter? ---------------------- You honestly believe I bare no responsibility for the situation? That's scary!


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is where I agree with you. First you are correct in that the rapist is the most guilty party here. His actions can't be defended. He deserves his long prison sentence. Secondly, the Police and Prosecutor did a terrible job. They bare more of a responsibility for this tragedy than the rape victim. They are at fault. If you read my prior posts on this subject, I've written that before.

Lastly, I agree with your comments on race. I honestly don't know if the victim was white. But if she was, I don't think it's crazy to say that could have been a factor in her accusing an innocent man of rape. Race absolutely plays a role in the criminal justice system. It effects Juries, Lawyers, investigators, Judges etc. It even affects witnesses! It is more difficult for an African American in the criminal justice system than it is for other ethnic groups.

Oh.. one more point. We are just exchanging facts and opinions on a very controversial issue. You don't have to get upset. It's nothing personal! My bet is we are probably on the same side on most political issues!

[LisaL]

86. The victim in this case is not at fault.

It's not like she made up a story to get an innocent man convicted out of spite or whatever other reason. She identified a wrong man, but she clearly did not do it on purpose.
It's the job of police and prosecution to make sure they actually have the right suspect.

[aaaaaa5a]

89. People are avoiding the "sub" topic here...

I didn't say she did in on purpose. I have actually gone out of my way to make sure it was clear that I don't think there was any "ill will" on her behalf. And if ANY OF MY PRIOR POSTS WERE READ, it would be clear that I have said repeatedly that the ultimate responsibility in this case is with law enforcement. And like in the Duke Lacrosse case, the Kobe Bryant case etc, they did a terrible job with a victim who gave them false information.


However, that still doesn't change the fact that we have an innocent man who was sent to jail because HE WAS falsely accused of a rape. And as I have pointed out repeatedly (without any factual opposition thus far!) these type of situations occur more often than most think.


It is interesting how some posters attempt to change "word meaning" or imply other scenarios which are not apart of my position to change the subject matter. This isn't complicated. The woman identified the wrong man. She told police (and testified in open court) that an innocent man raped her. None of these facts are in dispute. Am I missing something here?

[LisaL]

92. Are you missing something?

I don't even get what point you are trying to make. It's one thing to lie about being raped. It's the other thing to make a mistake identifying a suspect.
This woman made a mistake. People make mistakes.
To err is human. Police and prosecution should know that eyewitness testimony is not always reliable and not put so much weight into it. In this case, the woman told them her rapist was a smoker. The suspect they ended up with did not smoke. That in itself should have raised red flags that ID was not accurate. How many people end up arrested or even convicted because of mistaken ID? Way too many. Police should be looking for corroborating evidence instead of just accepting the eyewitness ID.

[aaaaaa5a]

135. I don't think I'm missing anything... LOL!

I actually agree with just about everything you wrote!

[Enthusiast]

121. She should have said she wasn't certain

when it came to pulling someone from a lineup. But, I can understand how the trauma might be an impediment to that. Still. Better no one is punished than an innocent man.

[LisaL]

126. A victim can be convinced she picked the right suspect and still

be wrong. She might have felt sure she picked the right guy.

[Vektor]

141. This person is not reasonable, and posts cyclic arguments.

He posts attacks on rape victims, and lies about women, then asks you to "prove" he's not right.

It's an age old tactic used by the ignorant. "Women lie about rape ALL THE TIME, PROVE I'M WRONG."

When you refuse to entertain such a ridiculous statement, he thinks he "won" and has successfully demonstrated that his vicious attack on women is warranted.

Typical Ted Bundy psychology.

I shudder to imagine WHY this person is so hell bent on discrediting rape victims. It makes you wonder.

[Vektor]

147. I have that freeper troll on ignore, because I just don't care to engage with rape apologists.

His sources are right wing attack sites, and he won't be around much longer.

Alert is your friend.

[Enthusiast]

149. Understood. But, better to be certain

or pick no one at all.

[LisaL]

66. Eyewitness ID is not exactly reliable.

A victim might be a 100 % convinced she picked the right suspect, and be a 100 % wrong.

[aaaaaa5a]

70. I agree 100%

And the facts back you up. It's just too bad some people are to emotional over the topic to view the subject matter objectively.

[haele]

116. He was picked by the victim from a photo line-up of "suspects" -

This is a very common problem in eyewitness identification, which is why the police needed to incorporate all the other physical evidence to make an accurate identification of a suspect.
In quite a few cases, if the police did not have a picture of the actual perpetrator, the victim alway picks whomever looks closest to the person that attacked them. Especially if the victim is rushed into providing an identification - often times, the victim is just taken to a lineup or shown the pictures and asked "which one of these looks like the one who attacked you...?", which tends to force a choice. It's a psychological trait humans often use to find closure from a traumatic event.
It's not intentional, it's not done with malice, it's because the victim assumes when he or she is shown pictures and asked to choose, that the police have an actual picture of the person who harmed them.
In this case, the victim picked the guy who looked closest to the one who attacked her. She also provided amplifying evidence that the police apparently ignored because they were too eager to get the case over with. A halfway decent detective would have checked and found out the young man didn't smoke, and the perpetrator chain-smoked.
Yes, there are a very few women who are malicious enough to want to hurt a man and falsely accuse him, but even then, that's a very, very small percentage of the mistaken identity cases that are currently sitting in prison on rape charges - and the malicious false rape charges are usually only prosecuted with the witting (or in a few cases, unwitting) actions of an overworked, lazy, bigoted, or outright corrupt local judiciary.

It's the police department's fault in this case. Not the victim's fault.

Haele

[LisaL]

130. A line up shouldn't consist of suspects only.

If a line up only consists of suspects, then whoever is picked might end up being charged. There should be one suspect and five or more photos of people who can not be suspects. The article doesn't explain how exactly was the line up conducted. I also wonder why Cole's photo was in that line up in the first place. Doesn't seem like he was the suspect.

[aaaaaa5a]

132. I would disagree with a few of your thoughts, however...

I want to commend you for an outstanding post. It's logical, on topic and actually addresses the issue at hand. As I mentioned earlier, I do disagree with a couple of your statements and I have numbers to back it up, but your arguments are good.

Thank you for expressing your views in a thoughtful, objectionable manner. It's been a rarity within this "sub-topic." LOL


Good read!

[Vektor]

73. This does not happen "all the time."

Women do not lie about domestic violence and rape "all the time."

Just because you claim some cop "told you that" does NOT make it so.

What an ignorant, uninformed, and dangerous thing to say.

Since women lie about these things "all the time" when a loved one of yours is raped or abused, I trust you'll tell your local law enforcement agency and district attorney's office to save their time and money and not bother investigating, since women lie about these things ALL THE TIME.

[aaaaaa5a]

75. My statement "all the time" was taken out of context.

It was part of a larger thought implying that false allegations are far more prevalent than many people realize.


If you have time and do some research, or talk to people on the front lines with these issues, they will tell you that false accusations when it comes to sexual assaults and domestic violence due occur.



That is my only point.


Oh, by the way... the young man who died in jail, (which is the point of this thread) he was a victim of a false accusation against him. You can't dispute that.

[Vektor]

76. Then perhaps the term "all the time" should not have been used.

The fact that false accusations "do occur" and "all the time" are two WAY different things.

As tragic as this case is, the victim did not "falsely accuse" or have any malicious intent.

It was a case of mistaken identity, and our grossly flawed justice system, and the investigators who ignored the confessions of the REAL rapist for years on end are 100% to blame.

[aaaaaa5a]

77. I will concede the point!

I still believe everyone knows what I was implying. I think they are using this phrase because they don't wish to engage on the more important issues I have written about within this thread.


However I will concede the point!


If I had it to do over again I would not have used the term "all the time." I have "symbolically" withdrawn the phrase.


However the person who died in jail WAS A VICTIM of a false allegation.

It's very true that it was unintentional. And you are correct, there was no malicious intent, (which I stated earlier) but he was falsely accused. People can word it any way they wish to make themselves feel better or to be "PC". But facts are facts.

[Vektor]

123. You said what you said, in no uncertain terms.

Don't accuse those who called you on a poor choice of words (and a false accusation in itself) of "not wishing to engage".

We're engaging, alright, just not in the way you'd wish. We're pointing out that you were wrong to say what you said.

Also, there is no "PC" involved. The DUers who are pointing out the error in your assessment of the situation, and asking you to discuss the story without using disingenuous and inflammatory rhetoric are not trying to "make anyone feel better", but to speak the truth.

The "false accusation" you speak of was the fault of the state, but let's not forget that the rare instance of a troubled woman lying about rape is FAR less of a problem than the all too common behavior of blaming the victim, or not taking her seriously, and throwing all sorts of phony statistics out there to try to discredit a woman who reports rape.

You seem WAY more intent of pressing your false accusation that "woman lie all the time about rape" than you do in owning that the justice system screwed up on this one. Anyone who points this out to you is being accused of "wishing to make themselves feel better" which sounds like a deflection to me, and a refusal on your part to stop speaking ill of rape victims.

Again: EVERY complaint of rape needs to be fully investigated. A civilized society does not look for ways to blame or discredit the victim. In the event it turns out that for whatever reason a woman has been dishonest in her account of a crime, that situation needs to be dealt with on a case by case basis, but NEVER used in the future to attempt to discredit another rape victim, or imply that women "do that all the time."

I'd wager to say that MEN lie a lot more often than women about rape. They commit the crime, then lie about it. Why don't you look at those stats instead?

[aaaaaa5a]

128. This woman falsely accused an innocent man of rape!

This woman went into open court and accused an innocent man of a sexual assault. Her false allegation put an innocent man in jail. Yes, law enforcement did a terrible job. And yes they bare the overwhelming responsibility for this tragedy. But it is her false accusation and her testimony against an innocent man which led to his demise.


Those are the facts.


And if you read my numerous other posts on this topic I have never excused law enforcement on this issue. I do believe ultimate fault lies with them. But her false allegation clearly didn't help!


By the way... I'm the only one in this entertaining debate that has actually presented factual data on the frequent occurrence of misidentification and false accusations in rape cases.

Where are your numbers?


This is from your prior post... YOU WROTE-"I'd wager to say that MEN lie a lot more often than women about rape. They commit the crime, then lie about it. Why don't you look at those stats instead?"


I am aware that rape is an under-reported crime. Nobody disputes that. Although the scope of the problem can be exaggerated and is subject to debate. However I have not seen any evidence that men are more likely than women to lie about a sexual assault once it becomes a criminal manner. Perhaps its true. But I have never seen any studies on it. My bet is the percentage of defendants who lie in a sexual assault case are probable about the same as defendants who lie in other criminal procedures. I don't think you will see any statistically significant differences. In fact your statement could even be viewed as sexist. I dearly hope you can be objectionable on this topic. Most studies I have seen in regard to the criminal justice system show that men and women lie in equal percentages.

I would love to know where that information in your post came from. Numbers? Study? Link?

I'll check back later to read some of your sources, if you post them.


And as I said before, this is a good debate. It's an interesting topic. It's nothing personal. We are all anonymous here. You don't have to get mad about it! LOL!

[LisaL]

131. You seem to be unable to comprehend the difference between

false allegations and mistaken identification.

[aaaaaa5a]

133. Here's are my definitions! Please tell me if you agree or disagree.

The woman was raped. That is not in dispute. Therefore her accusation was technically a case of mistaken identification.

However to the person she identified, he was a victim of a false accusation because she accused him of doing something he did not do.



I think those definitions are fair and accurate.

[Vektor]

138. I'm through beating this dead horse with you.

Your intent is obvious, and I don't entertain, or engage with rape sympathizers, sorry.

[aaaaaa5a]

139. I guess you don't have any numbers, studies, links or facts! N/T

[Vektor]

142. And your "facts" consist of FOX NEWS and Billoblog.com. RIGHT WING SITES.

An excerpt from your precious "billoblog" which is where you claim that your attacks on women and rape victims are "proven correct."



From BilloBlog, the expert source on women lying about rape and all other right-wing claims:

"After destroying the economy, Dems move to destroy American sovereignty
February 8th, 2009 by admin

Belief in American exceptionalism is a sin to the Dems, which is why they want so badly to destroy any area in which we excel. To much power, too much wealth, too much liberty — the great American sins. Much better to do away with the concept of “America” altogether. How to do it? Subjugate us to the great world government — after all, who knows what’s better for us than the *really* smart people in Belgium? Who knows better about human rights than the Saudis and the Sudanese? Who are we to believe in stupid silly little things like individual liberty and such? And so it goes. The Dems are moving fast to subjugate us to the UN, making the rulings of the world government superior to stupid little things like our silly Constitution. Hope and Change."

One of MANY attacks on Dems from your "source." It's one of the tamer ones.

I think it's time for you to go.

[aaaaaa5a]

143. You conveniently left out...

the Purdue University study, the Project Innocence report, and commentary from some of the most aggressive Prosecutors of sexual assault in the country. They were all included in the link. All of those non-partisan institutions have put the incidence of false reporting between 20% and 50%. Those are the facts. Backed up with sources. And reliable experts.


By the way... WHERE ARE YOUR SOURCES?

We are still waiting.

[Vektor]

144. RAPE APOLOGIST, freeper troll, YOU HAVE BEEN OUTED.

Your sick claim, that women "lie about rape all the time" "backed up" by RIGHT WING SOURCES like FOX and "Billo-Blog" have demonstrated that you are a sick, freeper, troll.

I cannot wonder if your insistence on being a rape apologist is for a very disturbing, personal reason.

Go back to FreeRepublic with all the other sick assholes.

[aaaaaa5a]

146. I think your violent,, emotional outbursts, says a lot.

And I have never once called anyone here any names or used poor language on this board.


Can I assume from your name calling and swearing that you ARE NOT GOING TO PROVIDE those sources?

[aaaaaa5a]

145. Rape sympathizers?????

The person who died in jail didn't rape anyone? He was innocent. The definition of being falsely accused is that you did not rape anyone.


Are you serious????????

[Quixote1818]

41. This puts tears in my eyes. So sad! nt

[tblue37]

44. Although I agree with the posters who are criticizing the death

penalty, I would like to point out that this young man's was not a death penalty case. He died in prison after being wrongfully convicted, but he was not on death row.

In other words, the death penalty is only relevant in this case in the sense that the case itself is evidence of how easily an innocent man can be convicted, especially if he happens to be African- American. And since innocent people can be convicted so easily, and the death penalty makes redress impossible, we should be reluctant to execute people.

He died in prison, but he was not executed, because he had not been sentenced to deth.

[shanti]

62. the point is

that he might have well gotten the death penalty - he died there.

[pacalo]

45. This is heartbreaking.

I saw a tv program awhile back about mistaken identity which demonstrated with a group of people acting as "eyewitnesses" how easy it is to get details wrong. If ever I'm in the position of being an eyewitness & I'm told to look through books of pictures, I'm pretty sure the police would be dealing with a brick wall if I weren't certain.

In this case, the rapist was a smoker; wouldn't it have been important for Cole's lawyer to get a blood sampling when he was arrested to determine if he had tobacco components in his system?

This poor young man -- what a tragedy.

[Cass]

52. This is a very disturbing case but please understand Cole was not executed by the State.

It does not make his death any better, but it was due to natural causes while in custody.

The asthma that plagued Cole throughout his life brought about his death on December 2, 1999. The cause was determined to be heart complications due to his asthmatic condition. He was 39.

[Horse with no Name]

64. Critical thinking skills apply here

Seriously. Either you have very little or NO knowledge of how asthma works.
The longer that asthma goes on poorly controlled, the greater the chances of dying are. That is it in a nutshell.
Do you honestly think that WHILE IN PRISON he got the newest and latest meds? Do you think he got to carry his rescue inhaler in his pocket? Do you think he got nebulized treatments WHEN he asked for them?
IF you think ANY of these things were attainable in a Texas prison, you are sadly mistaken and very uninformed.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=100249923
This paragraph says it all:
>>>snip
In the end, Johnson's confession came too late. In prison, Cole had struggled to get adequate medical treatment for his asthma. He was found unconscious in his cell twice and revived in hospital emergency rooms. Then on Dec. 2, 1999, Cole was again found unconscious. He died before the prison got him to the hospital. He was 39 years old.

Please, he was KILLED by the state even though they didn't inject the poison directly in his veins, they WITHHELD lifesaving treatment, which in the end, yielded the same result. Death.

[DFW]

68. Here's my solution, drastic and unfair as it probably is

The prosecutor, chief police investigator on the case and presiding judge at his trial
should serve out the remainder of his sentence. Let that be an example to those to whom
a conviction is more important than truth or justice.

Of course, as a Texan, myself, I know there is about as much chance of all felony trials
in Texas being fair as there is of Rush Limbaugh becoming slimmer than Barack Obama.

[varkam]

84. The problem with that is...

there's a difference between criminal misconduct and innocent mistake. In addition, there are competing interests (namely, those of society and victims' rights) against those of the accused.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that what happened here was a good thing, but you don't want there to be a chilling effect on prosecutions either by holding people responsible criminally for what may very well not be criminal conduct.

I think a better solution would be for the state to pay out to the victim (or, in this case, the victim's estate). Money doesn't fix it - it never will, but it is a start.

[DFW]

91. I realize that my solution is drastic and impractical

What I was trying to get across is that malicious prosecution and sentencing
are not crimes (de facto, anyway), and if there were a legal deterrent to
conducting such proceedings, then deliberate incarceration of the innocent
will not be an option for the politically greedy in cases where the law is
incapable of finding the guilty party. Jailing and/or executing an innocent
for the sole reason that judges and prosecutors want to show something for
efforts is not something that should be tolerated for one more second, and
yet it is standard behavior in much of America, even today. I submit that it
would be a rare occurrence indeed, if it were punished to the same degree as
the victims of such action. Proving it would be a bitch, though, which is why
I don't expect to see any such suggestion being put on any legislative table
until the first part of "The Truth Machine" comes to be reality, and even the
author, James Halperin, called it a "speculative" novel.

[sendero]

102. Innocent mistake?

She told them her attacker smoked throughout the assault, it would have been trivial for the prosecutor to learn that Cole could not smoke.

The prosecutor and/or defense lawyer are ABSOLUTELY CULPABLE.

[varkam]

104. I wasn't speaking to this case in particular.

Was it known at the time of trial that the perpetrator smoked and that the defendant could not?

[sendero]

107. Most likely...

... nobody cared either way but SHE SAYS she told them about the smoking. If they were remotely interested in justice, they would have found out.

Fact is, we have a criminal justice system that ROUTINELY convicts innocent people for being poor, black or both. And everyone involved that is gunning for a conviction, ANY conviction, rather than justice is the problem - and as the Innocence Project has proven WITH EASE, it is a big problem.

[Baikonour]

74. While the death penalty is wrong, it isn't the only issue.

Keeping innocent men and women behind bars is just as inhumane.

[varkam]

85. Welcome to DU!

I agree with you. There used to be a sense in the American criminal justice system that it is better for ten guilty men to go free than it is for one innocent man to be condemned.

I'm not sure that is the prevailing opinion, if it ever was.

[1Hippiechick]

78. Simultaneously enraged and heartbroken. Death penalty needs to be overturned!

:argh:

Innocence Project of Texas link:

http://ipoftexas.org/about-us/

Those of us with activist spirits: this is an opportunity to get involved and push for this at our individual state levels!

[scytherius]

87. Can't we JUST let Texas secede?

SO tired of rednecks and their bigotry and their guns. They are the only thing breathing life into the GOP.

[MajorChode]

108. Because Texas isn't asking to secede. Try Alaska.

Texas is becoming more and more liberal with each day. Dallas county is now blue, Harris county (Houston) is now blue, as is most all of the Austin area. Many areas of the state are leaning that way.

McCain only carried Texas by about 10 points and Obama didn't even campaign here.

[Paladin]

113. Can't You Take Your Anti-Texas Bias And Shove It?

Over 3.5 million Texans voted for Obama, and the way trends are going, Texas won't be a Republican state that much longer. And there are innocent people in prison all over the country, which is shameful.

There's a lot more to Texas than rednecks, bigotry and guns. The only bigotry I see here is what you're exhibiting....

[Name removed]

88. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tbyg52]

90. This is the one reason I have, and the only one I feel I need, for being against the death penalty.

I know there are lots of other arguments against it, but I don't even mess with them. The one is sufficient.

[Blue_Tires]

96. justice delayed is justice denied

[Butch350]

105. To be really really honest here...

I think I would remember the face of someone driving me around in my car, smoking cigerettes and threatening
my life with a knife. I just think the victim just wanted justice and with a little shit stirring from the police,
I think she pointed the finger at any black face they'd show her. ( a form of Occam's razor)?

[LisaL]

111. I think that's complete nonsense.

And since you haven't been in the situation, how would you know what you would remember or not?
:eyes:
By the way, eyewitness testimony is far from being reliable. This woman is not the only person to have made a mistake.
I bet most innocent people who end up convicted are in prison due to mistaken eyewitness ID.

[Politicalboi]

106. There are some cases where the death penalty

Is right. When they have DNA and you have admitted it then yes you should die. I always think of Samatha Runnion 6 years old in I think 2003 in Ca who was taken while playing outside. The murderer took her raped her and killed her. His DNA (sperm) was there his tire tracks were there and the little girls tears where found in his car. His skin under her fingernails. He has the right to plead not guilty with all that evidence. In these cases I think 3 judges should decide if you get life or death. Why should the victims relatives have to listen to this piece of shit's defense. It's time for the crimal system to re-check DNA and let the innocent ones go. In my book that piece of shit desreves to die for what he did to that 6 year old. And I would love to pull the switch.

[DallasNE]

109. What Was The Supposed Evidence?

There could not have been any eyewitness accounts, that is for sure.

They cannot have placed Cole at the scene of the crime. How could Cole have even been charged, let alone found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt by a jury. And what kind of defense counsel was Cole provided and how did the Judge instruct the jury. This was rotten to the core.

[LisaL]

110. The evidence was obviously the victim's mistaken ID.

Couldn't have been nothing else. However an ID might be all that is needed to charge someone with rape.

[aaaaaa5a]

120. That's been my point for the last 24 hours.

An "ID" is all that is required to charge someone with rape. Even if the "ID" is faulty.

[Garbo 2004]

154. Sounds like defense council did his job..alibi witnesses, reasonable doubt by ID'ing the real perp..

there were no forensics connecting Cole to the crime. But evidence and facts of the case were ignored by prosecution and jury. The prosecutor's entire case rested on the victim's ID.

[baldguy]

115. Whoever put him there should serve out the remainder of his sentence.

[magnoliablossom]

118. DISGUSTINGLY TYPICAL!

The Judge is right - this is SO incredibly sad, but I can't
say I'm surprised.  The Prison Industry is a BIG business and
prosecutors are only looking for the win. I have personal
experience with these issues.  In 1995, my two sons (and two
of their friends) were convicted under California's Felony
Murder Rule for First Degree Murder THAT THEY DID NOT
COMMIT!!! My oldest son was 18 and my youngest was 15 at the
time. On their first offense, they got Life Without the
Possibility of Parole and 29 Yrs-Life (only because my
youngest was only 15) and have been incarcerated in two
different California State Prisons ever since. We are still in
appeals (Federal level finally) an it's taken 13+ years. Guess
what? They're white.  IMO, it's not about color as much as
class!  Justice is hooked on wealth, fame and power.  If you
are one of the Wee People, you are guilty under you prove your
own innocence. There is no "equal protection under the
Law." That's just propaganda! If the Justice system was
fair, Bush, Cheney, Rice and Gonzales would go directly to one
of their own STATE prisons - without passing GO! (Oh, how I
wish!)

Instead of building more prisons, we should put the money into
education. Kids as young as 11-12 should be taught the laws in
their perspective states and, since they are regularly tried
as Adults in California, they should know that they can be
incarcerated for Life for being in the wrong place at the
wrong time or hanging with the wrong people.  States should be
required to teach the laws if they intend to prosecute teens
as Adults. We expect them to follow rules ..... that we never
teach them. I had never heard of The Felony Murder Rule myself
and had no idea the Justice System was such a trap.  I was
always taught it was "fair." Such bull-shit! Take it
from me, "fair" has nothing to do with it!!  Sure,
there are people that should be in prison ... it has a purpose
.... but far too many people are wrongfully incarcerated.
Prosecutors spend so much time looking for the "bad"
in every defendant that I think they actually become the evil
they seek.  

The Prosecutor that tried my sons was the most horribly mean
person. He knew it was Manslaughter, not Murder. He lied. He
treated us all with such disdain that I totally understand why
some people snap - I almost did.  Interestingly enough, that
D.A. died a few years ago of a brain tumor.  The Prosecutor(s)
in the Cole case should have to pay the family restitution -
just like they make every inmate pay ... and all of them
should undergo psych evaluations every year.

[DollyM]

122. What we need is a justice system that is honest!

That whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing is such a crock. We learned that first hand. We had been foster parents for 10 years in Oklahoma when we had a teenage girl in our home make an accusation against my husband. We had been having a lot of trouble with her and had to ground her and remove her priviledges. This was all documented through monthly reports. There were tons of holes in her story which kept growing and even her best friend wrote a letter to the DA and the DHS that said she was lying. The letter mysteriously disappeared and the local assistant DA jumped on this like we were the worst people in the world even though all the evidence said to the contrary. We went into this innocently thinking the police just wanted to know the truth and didn't hire an attorney immediately. We discovered quickly that the police were only looking for what they could use against us, not the truth. The whole point of the "justice" system is to make a case and make someone to be the guilty person. It doesn't matter who, just someone and then the prosecutors, police, etc. can pat themselves on the back and say "we won." It is nothing more than a big game to them that they win or lose and they will stop at nothing to keep from losing whether it is witholding evidence or ignoring good senses. The girl eventually confessed to making up the story but not before my husband lost his job of 7 years with a mental health agency and had his career ruined. We had to move out of state and leave behind the beautiful home that we had just remodled and thought we would spend the rest of our lives in. The assistant DA eventually told our attorney that she felt "bad" about all the damage this caused to us but she never apologized directly to us and seemed to bear no responsibility for foolishly foraging ahead with a case that had no merit. She was new and young and I'm sure, thought this case would put her on the map prosecuting this big bad child molester. She walked away with everything she had while we lost everything we had and have never completely recovered emotionally or financially. We stopped telling our son the classic "the policeman is our friend" line and started telling him to immediately ask for us and attorney if he is ever in trouble. He is a good kid and is also trusting so I fear the worst for him but hopefully he will remember this piece of advice. What a shame we are so jaded with the judicial system but hearing stories like this just reinforce to me that our feelings about this system are correct. It is rotten to the core.

[aaaaaa5a]

148. That's a very sad story.

And even more depressing, situations like yours dealing with the criminal justice system and false sexual assault accusations are far more common than the general public realizes.

I'm sure having been through a traumatic event like that, you have researched this topic and know how frequent stories like yours are in our criminal system.

I wish you and your family all the best. And I hope you can recover from the experience.

[Blackhatjack]

125. Time for the old standby -- "This just proves the system works..."

It always amazes me that people can be misled into believing that 'the system(which imposes the death penalty)' works to protect the innocent.

We have an adversarial trial system in this country. There is a duty for the prosecutor to seek justice, not withhold evidence from the defense that is exculpatory, and act within the law.

This just proves 'the system' does not work.

Imagine how many other innocent people are incarcerated ....

[MellowDem]

129. Am totally against the death penalty...

but even without it, it doesn't stop people being jailed for most (or all) of the the rest of their lives when they are innocent.

[Brewman_Jax]

152. And there will be no punishment or sanction for the DA's Office

Nifong suffered greater punishment for doing less. :(