Apparently, I am not compassionate and am not a good Dem

[Turn CO Blue]

because I live in a 3,500 sq ft home (which may be bigger than yours) and my husband and I make more than six figures (together) - which probably puts us in the top 10% of wage earners in the country.

It makes little sense to me to judge people for being too wealthy or too successful anymore than it would make sense to judge people harshly for being poor or unskilled. In fact, it savors of sour grapes.

Judge people on their character, not their pocketbook.

John and Elizabeth Edwards have enough character for ten Presidential candidates.

[WindRavenX]

1. seriously, utilize the ignore feature for stuff like this

I couldn't believe the threads I saw on this topic.

:hug:

[Turn CO Blue]

2. When you're right, you're right, you're right.

[WindRavenX]

3. I'm really, really worried about how DU is going to be during the primaries

:nuke: :nuke:

:scared:

[Turn CO Blue]

5. I tell you, I will definitely be using Ignore during the primaries

and something else -- I will vote for just about any Dem out there for the highest office. Even the most centrist Dem would help clean the stench out of the White House and turn this ship around.

[Joe for Clark]

6. Don't judge - it is a good point.

Judge based on character.

You know if we judged based on wealth as a negative Kennedy would never have beed elected ( or FDR...)

Joe

[pacalo]

30. I've thought about that, too.

My concern, though, is how early some are choosing their candidates.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

61. If the '08 primaries are anything like '04, I will be spending very little time at DU

[brentspeak]

39. I could. Freeper-type moles and trolls will never go away. Also, partisans of certain Dem candidates

And, apparantly, all one of them has to do here is simply act "left-wing", and they'll have carte-blanche to bash Democrats or rival candidates at will. It's ridiculous.

[cynatnite]

4. You...you...you...!

making sense person! :)

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

7. Hey, TCB,

:hug:

You're ok in my book. :)

[Debi]

8. If you are feeling guilty I'll PM you my addy and you can send me

any extra you have each month :shrug:

Truly, ignore any of the 'you aren't Democrat enough' posters. Just do what you believe is right and you'll be fine

(I wasn't kidding about the handouts though, I need em!! :P)

[Turn CO Blue]

10. You raise a good point - about guilt

It is easy to get too busy to be grateful or to arrange to give some of our blessings away. I do try to give back, but the good 'ol religious background ensures that I feel guilty about everything - having too much, giving too little. I don't want to feel guilty. I earned this. (And I am sure that John Edwards did too. Who knows what he has been through or given up to be where he is? He cares about the poor and is to the poverty issue what Gore is to climate crisis.)

I have said DU is like church - and I mean both the good things and bad things about church.

I started at my current company 9 years ago making $6.25 an hour cleaning airplanes - and that wasn't much more then than it is now. We didn't have much. I rose through the ranks and my husband has a similar story. It's just one of those things.

[MrSlayer]

9. You are supposed to give all your money away.

Live in a hut, wear rags and eat gruel. What the hell is wrong with you?

[Reterr]

14. Yep Americans are know for their frugality and thats whats killing the planet...

Please, we are going nuts with our race to build the biggest houses, own the biggest cars, buy more, more, more...

This faux outrage from the moderates because some mean, judgemental people on a message board :cry: :cry: are saying that over-consumption is killing this planet and that at this point in time its especially crucial for us to revert to more eco-friendly, more frugal ways is really silly :eyes:.


There are 1000 corporate messages out there telling you to spend more. Yet, there is so much outrage on this so-called progressive board, because a few people have the gall to suggest that the American life-style is obscene...

There is more to being an environmentalist that giving the Sierra Club $10 every other year and watching Gore's movie....

[july302001]

33. ironic...

The ironic thing is that I'm pretty moderate. I just like honesty from my leaders.

[Lurking Dem]

11. See if I ever invite YOU on my yacht!

;)

[pitohui]

12. don't let negative people get you down

i'll freely admit your house and income are bigger than mine, and the edwards house and income is bigger than all ya'lls, but for cryin' out loud!

it is indeed about character

we want and need successful people on our side, it's stupid to throw them away -- stupid to throw you away

[illinoisprogressive]

13. Who said you are not a good dem? Anyone can be whichever they want regardless

Ignore whoever insulted you. So what if you had a good life. I think it's marvelous that you are a dem no matter your status or income. Please. I do not have money but, I have friends who are quite well off. Who cares. We are still friends and think highly of each other.

[mikelewis]

15. You could have all the money in the world and still be the poorest wretch on the planet...

Just look at Bush...

It's not what's in your pocketbook that matters... it's what's in your heart that makes a world of difference.

[Clark2008]

16. I agree with part of your statement.

You can be well off and still be compassionate.

BUT, I still maintain John Edwards only does what is politically prudent to whatever office he's running for.

Sorry, don't trust the man. And I don't care where he lives, to be honest.

[JuniperLea]

17. I didn't see the thread

And you may well be a-o-k in my book, but your OP smacks of braggadocio on stand alone face value. I really, really, really hate it when people tell me how much material possessions they have. I think it is rude as hell. Likewise, telling people how much money you earn is a massive no-no in any etiquette book. If that is how the thread went down, I can relate to someone taking issue with it purely from a standpoint of rudeness.

[Reterr]

19. "it savors of sour grapes"

Your reply just smacks of sour grapes (as the OP puts it) :spank:...
As a particularly bright DUer (not) said in the other thread, anyone arguing against consumption is just jealous of the richer dems who choose to consort with the low-class, poor ones..

No wonder threads on both poverty and the environment sink like stones here :eyes:-not sexy topics those.

[JuniperLea]

23. No sour grapes here

But I'm not going to brag to prove it.

Had you any clue about proper social skills, you wouldn't even go there.



http://www.census.gov/prod/2006pubs/acs-02.pdf


Edited to provide a link to statistics.

[Reterr]

40. Is chastising people for lack of skills a sign of errr "good breeding"?

:rofl:
I was raised in a barn-so sorry :(.

[JuniperLea]

53. I'm talking horse sense here

So if you were born in a barn, you should have a little of that too.

No, not good breeding. You will clearly take this as far as you can so as to not be held responsible for your treatment of others. IMHO, what is lacking in this world boils down to good manners. Good manners boil down to being kind to one another. If we could only master that one simple task, everything else would fall into place.

[ScreamingMeemie]

44. Welcome to DU. One of the rules here is to not call out DUers.

No wonder GD gets a bad rep. :eyes:

[mondo joe]

32. What do the etiquette books say about complaing about how much others earn

and judging them based on how they spend their own money?

[JuniperLea]

35. Funny you should ask... I was just reading this

In a nutshell, both are equally offensive! No wonder this whole deal bothers me so much. I had a fairly strict upbringing in this regard, and to tell you why would be ever so impolite.

Dear Miss Manners,
Recently you had a question from a person who felt a friend was bragging about her financial situation. I have a sort of opposite problem. I try very hard not to be a braggart when it comes to our financial situation. I try to keep how much we make, how much we spend on things, etc. private. Partially because it really isn't anyone's business but our own, and partially because telling people those sorts of things could be bragging, which would be very rude.

It seems that I can't talk about anything without it coming down to the fact that my friend has less money than me. For example, I asked her for her address so I could send her a Christmas card and she promptly told me that she wasn't sending out Christmas cards because they were too expensive ("The stamps cost more than the cards"). Any time I mention what we did over the weekend I have to hear about how she couldn't afford that. When I mentioned — in the course of a conversation — that my significant other works for his father she told me, "No wonder you guys are rich."

Nothing could be further from the truth — we are far from rich. I feel we just spend our money on different things. For example we do not have children (a conscious choice) while she has three.

My question: Is it rude to mention things we've be doing around people who can't do the same? It's not like, "Oh we just bought a new Lamborghini yesterday and we are buying a new Porsche tomorrow." I try not to bring this up without being asked, but what should I do if someone asks, "What did you do over the weekend?" Should I lie? Should I just avoid conversation about things other than work?

Gentle Reader,
Frankly, what Miss Manners would avoid is this friend of yours. Bragging about money is no less offensive in those who do not have much than in those who do. And the particular tack that your friend takes — suggesting a zero sum game, in which your money impoverishes her — is not that of a friend.

http://lifestyle.msn.com/Relationships/Article.aspx?cp-documentid=256605&wa=wsignin1.0

[mondo joe]

37. And I agree.

The threads here putting others down because of their income or spending are creepy and judgmental.

I have a lot of sympathy for the OP in this thread after seeing so many of them.

[JuniperLea]

55. I don't have sympathy for passive-aggressive types

Who feign hurt feelings whilst bragging about what they own. ( "which may be bigger than yours)"... aaaiiiiiiiieeeeeeee! Passive freaking aggressive!!! ) Had they not told what they had in the first place, no one could have condescended. If you don't brag, no one can judge you for what you have, can they?

It boils down to good manners. We as a society are sorely lacking in this regard. A little grace would go a long way in mending the woes of the world.

[Reterr]

41. Miss Manners????

Let me demonstrate my "lack of proper social skills" by doing this:
:rofl: :rofl:

[JuniperLea]

54. Excuse me for attempting to bring it down to your level n/t

[ThomCat]

42. Etiquette says you should sit quietly while

other people overconsume and overindulge. It's supposedly rude to point out what other people are doing wrong.

Thankfully, rules of etiquette don't apply in political discussions. You can't address a problem if you're now allowed to talk about it.

[mondo joe]

46. Sounds like what the Far Right says about gays and abortion.

Congratulations, Stalky Stalkerson!

[ThomCat]

47. You don't say anything

important enough to make you worth anyone's time to stalk.

[mondo joe]

49. LOL! We'll see, Stalky Stalkerson.

:-)

[ThomCat]

51. See

you just wrote another post with absolutely no content. :)

[JuniperLea]

56. Etiquette says no such thing

I have a problem with Hummers and their arrogant owners who think they have the right to waste precious energy. But I'm not going to stop them on the street and verbally blast them for it. That would make me as rude as they are. There are other ways to voice your descent that don't involve personal jabs and bragging.

[july302001]

52. well...

But it's done all the time!

[illinoisprogressive]

18. Was FDR or Kennedy not good dems or uncompassionate due to income???

[L84TEA]

20. Amen!

sheesh... I haven't been to DU in awhile, I stopped in tonight for a look around and all I see is people smearing OUR party... It is OK to debate, but don't smear... these are our friends...no foes!

There will be plenty of time to start smearing fools.

[BlackVelvet04]

21. I don't think anyone is judging him on how much is in his pocketbook....

they are judging him on the way he is spending that money. I for one think it's valid criticism.

At a time when the environment is a major issue and so many people are homeless, I think a 30,000 sf house is ostentatious and over-the-top. NOBODY needs a 30,000 sf home unless they have a HUGE family.

[july302001]

27. agree

Agree here. The basis of my criticism is environmental. The leaders need to lead if they want people to follow.

[Raine]

22. I agree

I don't fit the Democratic "norm" either I see that kind of crap...it's annoying and troublesome. I try hard to ignore it that's the best thing to do.

[ourbluenation]

24. Mr. Ourblue and I live in a 1500 sq foot home and make just under $100K

and I have no problem whatsoever with the size of your home or your earnings. In fact - we'd love to come for dinner... :)

[Tyo]

25. Don't let these folks get you down.

There is a nasty almost puritanical type of left-winger who is convinced that all wealth is by definition ill-gotten and that anyone who has succeeded in business has done so by exploiting others. That's not to say that this isn't the case more often than we'd like but I certainly don't think it's the rule.

Both my parents busted their asses and eventually did well but we ate a lot of hot dogs, rice, and veggie stirfry when I was little while they were getting there. Don't pay any attention to those who are trying to guilt you out or tell you that you don't deserve what you've worked so hard for.

[july302001]

26. have to disagree respectfully

There's a difference between 3,500 sf and Edwards' place. Your place is a normal house. Who's criticizing normal-sized houses?

I'm from North Carolina. This is the biggest house in the state. Not even our bank CEO's, or any other North Carolina CEO's live in digs like this.

Edwards' pad is way too in-your-face for me. And, I'm NOT saying he should live in a shack. He would have done a lot better with us Democrats by building a nice place about 3,500 sf + 2,500 sf of outbuildings, and then pimpin' it up with a lot of environmental features like big south-facing windows, maybe an earth berm on the north side, and maybe a $50,000 rooftop solar rig. All that stuff costs lots of money....but it shows values, too.

This pad is in-your-face and it's hypocritical.

[The Straight Story]

28. You can't help the poor or be part of the poor people caucus if you ain't poor

Ya need to live in a trailer and ride a bike, only shower once a month to conserve water, and be like the amish and not have 'lectricity so as to save mother earth and father oil.

Damned limo liberals and all yer fancy a talking with them thar purty words.

:rofl:

[pacalo]

29. You're so correct!

Only those with comparable means who have contempt for the middle class & the poor should be ashamed. As much as Edwards speaks & works on behalf of the needy & less fortunate, he shouldn't be criticized if he wants a large home.

[Fovea]

31. I do not advocate an easy thing

when I humbly request that you consider the class war that has more than decimated the middle and working class as the source of this rudeness.

Through it all, they *have* been judged. Every time an employer strips their health benefits, they have been judged. Every time their job is outsourced, they are judged. Every time a politician wipes them with an Orwellian sounding bill to make the poor poorer, it seems the wealthy ubiquitously benefit.

Yes, they are angry at wealth. And I am sorry to say, they have a right to be. Your personal virtues despite their magnitude, are are sadly easy to drown out in their frustration. That is more about their rage than your virtue. Please try not to take it personally.

The difference lies in the fact that they pay the heavy prices in a society where the top 5% live in a way that not even Kings could live in your parents day.

Wealth does not erase character, but neither does it automatically prove it. I have no doubt that the Edwards' family are good and decent people. But do not ask me to believe that they have had their gas turned off so they could pay a pharmacy bill or their bank account seized for un-payable taxes within recent memory. I don't think that food, rent, and fuel eat up greater than 70% of their annual income without medical care even in the equation, and that they look at their children and see themselves as failures when they cannot afford to send them to college.

May the Gods bless the wealthy progressives for empathizing. But if the wealthy fail to see the kind of life that makes a young man or woman sign up for Iraq, who can blame them? The top 10% live a life where even their safety nets have a safety net. Elizabeth's cancer would have wiped out any one of 10s of millions of American families who live without medical insurance.
And more than likely, she'd be dead by now due to some treatment she could not afford when the money ran out.

And when one lives that sumptuous life, one may empathize with the homeless and the broken, but one profits most by understanding that they no longer have the luxury of middle class sensibilities. They becoming desperate creatures, furiously angry at those who are paupering them for the benefit of ever greater wealth. For the victims in the former middle class, their safety net is the gutter. This is not the America they invested their lives in, and somebody is going to pay.

The fact that the uber rich have woken up to this idea is the subject of panicky sounding articles coming out of Davos. In earlier times, noblesse oblige tempered the sometimes brutal exuberance of wealth. This was the real neocon revolution, wealth without responsibility. Now suddenly the ultra rich realize that the Old European virtues may have had some pragmatic raisons d'etre vis a vis keeping ones head and shoulders in close proximity.

I wonder if it is too late? A thought experiment... Would you accept a 75% rate on all income over 350K/year? That's a lot better deal than the rich had under Truman, and somehow there were still wealthy people in 1952. Would you be more likely to accept it if it meant fewer poor panhandling at corners and significantly less chance of helter skelter?

Again, I am sorry that you were treated rudely for no other reason than your 3500ft(2) home. Obviously, these people just don't see that you are not one of the bad people. I am happy life has been fortunate for you. May it remain ever so.

These days though, six figures is pretty much chump change to the Davos class rich.

[Quixote1818]

34. How about that fuck head Ted Turner. And all he could afford to donate

to the United Nations was 1 Billion Dollars. You think he could have moved into a modest 1,500 sf house and given the rest to charity.

Same goes for Bill Gates! His house is much, much too big!

[Xithras]

36. Bah, ignore them. I do.

I once had someone tell me right here on DU that I was anti-worker and therefore couldn't be a liberal because I *GASP* own my own business, employ people, and make a profit. Apparently that made me the enemy of the working man :eyes:

It's a big tent, and we have some people on our side that are rather "out there". Accept their presence, ignore them if they annoy you, and continue doing the right thing. That's all any of us can do.

[hashibabba]

38. Ignore them. I didn't think you were bragging, just explaining

where you're coming from. If someone thinks you aren't following proper etiquette, tell them to get a life. Miss Manners, my eye. Are we living in the 50s here?

There are really great people on this message board, but there will always be a few who don't like you for one reason or another (you're religious, you're too rich, you're too poor, you're green, you're .... you name it, they'll complain about it and judge you harshly and bombard you with their HATE talk). You just have to ignore those posters and when you see their names, just scroll by their posts.

I'm very poor, but I don't begrudge anyone their wealth. More power to them, I say. Who is anyone to tell John Edwards how many sq. ft. his house can be, or how much it can cost or how much money he has to give to the poor? Obviously most of these particular people will never be satisfied with anything he does, so who cares.

[JuniperLea]

58. So, you can't see the disconnect?

Don't you think a little grace and a few manners would easily heal so much in the world? What are manners but the golden rule? Oh, wait, that's so 50s/ :eyes:

[Webster Green]

43. Dammit!....... I wish I had that problem.

Oh well.....I'm working on it.

There's plenty of people around who are well off and very progressive.

If everyone would just mind their own business, a lot of our problems would be immediately solved.

[mondo joe]

45. All we need to do is extend our respect for what women do with their uterus to

what all people do with their whole bodies.

[Warren DeMontague]

50. Yes. I have a dream.

A nation where people's physical persons don't belong to the state, or the church, but to themselves. What a concept!

[Warren DeMontague]

48. Yeah, well, I think porn, drugs, and prostitution should be legal for consenting adults.

So i've had all manner of rhetorical turds flung at my for my socially Libertarian (you'd be amazed how much some folks here get hives over the "L" word!) viewpoints on those and other matters.

I wouldn't let it bug you. Some folks are just bitter, or have an axe to grind. Big deal.

[meow mix]

57. are you the public spearhead of a liberal movement?

just wonderin..
this doenst really bother me much, but he's not my candidate. im just suprised everyone else is so suprised that liberals might take exception to this... since he is a public leader.
(shrug)
especially the extreme-left. (yaaaay)

anyways this is nothing, dem primaries are so bloody that this is kinda funny actually heh.

[AbbyR]

59. Thanks for saying what I've been thinking (nft)

[philosophie_en_rose]

60. It's not the size that counts; it's what you do with it.

Being rich certainly doesn't make anyone an automatic fabulous person, but it also doesn't mean you must be a raving freeper.

Stereotyping is not cool.

[Porcupine]

62. Oh Sorry, I'll just shiver quietly in my tiny apartment,with no health care..

and no hope of finding a decent job to support my kids due to intractable medical conditions. Excuse us poor people for bitching that the rich have cornered the resources of the world and arent' sharing.

Don't mind us if a little lead comes flying through your Mcmansion later. We're just looking for something to eat. Isn't if funny how great disparities in wealth tend to lead to bloody civil wars?

Better get you Lexus armored up also.