I have a huge decision to make and am not sure how to proceed...

[Obamarama]

DUers are wise people for the most part, so I decided to ask your advice...

First, some background: Recently our city commission enacted an ordinance that made it illegal within the city to discriminate against GLBT individuals in employment, lodging, etc... The American Family Association had to stick their big nose in it and circulated petitions in the area Evangelical and mega churches to get it repealed and placed on a ballot, which they successfully accomplished.

So, I had to go north to Grand Rapids, MI (about 45 mi north) today. Had dinner with some friends and drove back to Kalamazoo. Just north of Kalamazoo there is a rest area. I had consumed a lot of water during dinner and had to pee like Sea Biscuit. I opted not to drive the remaining 10 miles home in pain, so I pulled off at the rest area and went in to take a leak.

This guy emerges from one of the stalls and walks over to the urinal next to me, takes out his equipment and starts playing with it. I am trying not to make eye contact with him but in my peripheral vision I see him move his hand over towards me. I looked at him to tell him no thanks, not interested and immediately recognized him as the pastor of one of the mega churches that circulated the petitions to get the anti-discrimination ordinance repealed.

I zipped up and got the heck out of there. Realizing I had an opportunity I returned to my car and got my camera phone and shot a picture of his license plate, and a wider angle shot clearly showing he was parked in the lot of the local rest area, along with a time and date stamp.

I don't have anything proving he was doing anything illicit other than my word. I have no intention on drawing suspicion upon myself as a gay man by having people wondering why I stopped at the rest area so close to home as well.

The city commission is going to bring a different form of the ordinance forward soon and once again the AFA has vowed to do a petition. I feel like what I want to do is anonymously send this guy and his church leadership the photos along with an account of what happened and say something like "don't circulate the petition and this information won't go public in the community."

Would this be considered extortion? Blackmail? Could I be charged with either in this case? I want to do something with this...this is too big just to sit on. This guy needs to be held accountable, I'm just lost as to how to achieve that.

[LiberalHeart]

1. Don't do anything with the photos. Just do this....

Let law enforcement know they need to police the rest room. Don't use any names. Just let them catch him.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. That's a really good idea

Because it is likely that pastor will be there again.

[Barack_America]

7. Absolutely. Exposing oneself to one another is a crime, no?

I would imagine that the OP could press charges for this.

[LisaL]

24. Did you not understand this was in the restroom?

[Barack_America]

25. Um, I was trying to be a bit delicate with the wording.

But fondling one's genitalia in front of another person is inappropriate, even in a restroom.

[emilyg]

47. In a restroom?

[chrisa]

61. He was playing with himself.

That's at least sexual harrassment. Even the suspicion that he did this would be a major embarassment for him.

[Bjorn Against]

36. No, if he is going to report it he needs to name the person.

The last thing we want is for the police to be keeping an eye out for gay people, that is targeting a community when there is only one offender. We don't want the police keeping an eye on everyone with gays particularly targeted, there are civil rights issues here and we can't violate everyone's rights because of one person especially when the offender is known.

[Lorien]

54. True. I think that the hypocrite and the hypocrite alone

needs to be targeted.

[The Doctor.]

57. Catching this guy should be no problem if the cops have the right info.

Agreed.

[lunatica]

68. I agree. And this could end up being a catch and release

But I would send the pastor a copy of your photos and a note explaining what happened. The OP can remain anonymous, but he can tell him that he will release the information if the preacher continues persecuting the GLBT community.

Ultimately what you really want is the stop the discrimination, not to punish someone for being gay. The OP would be confronting a dangerous hypocrite who has done his best to punish gays, not some pathetic preacher who is otherwise a nice guy.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. Yes, it could be

it is your word against his--he could come up with an explanation as to why he was there that would make as much sense as yours would. People like this have to be caught in the act--but be patient. He will be, and there will be evidence to prove it that will hold up in a court of law.

[NMDemDist2]

3. I don't know what to tell you

but I'll give it a kick for ya.

however is there an 'alternative' paper around town? maybe contact one of their people?

[ZombieHorde]

5. I don't have answers to your questions, but K&R.

You may wish to think about asking your question to a pro-GLBT activist group. They may even help you.

[pacalo]

20. I think this is the proper route.

[Barack_America]

6. Who-boy, you're treading into some dangerous territory here.

I would recommend contacting an attorney, both to find out what you can do within your legal rights, and also to find out how to protect yourself (legally and physically) should you decide to make your information public.

I wouldn't recommend threatening this guy. You could always consider going to the media with your story, under the condition that they keep you anonymous. Above all, keep yourself safe.

I'm sorry that you had this experience. What he did to you was extremely disrespectful and wrong.

Please take care of yourself.

[BlooInBloo]

9. I second the attorney-first advice.

If you're going to do anything at all.

[Cass]

17. Third on the attorney advice.

Without photographic proof it may be a rough road to to go, but a good attorney will be able to steer you in the right direction.

Most attorneys will let you come in on a first free visit arrangement (or whatever it is they call it - I am having a brain freeze right now)

Good luck. :hug:

[Believing Is Art]

8. Don't go public, don't anonymously send anything

Go to the police. You don't have to ask them to file charges or anything. Just tell them what happened and give them the pictures. He may have done this before and he may do it again and there may be victims. This could help with any allegations against him now or in the future.

If you spread this info anonymously, it could be traced back to you. As you said, this is your word against his. At the very least you could get hit with defamation of character. I doubt this was the first time he did something like this and it probably won't be his last. These type of people usually bring themselves down.

[OhioBlue]

42. I agree with this.

I think sending the pics and the note to the Church would backfire. I think BIA's approach is the one that shows the most responsibility and integrity.

[Xipe Totec]

10. Tough call

I have no advice for you.

Just wanted to let you know that I read your post, I understand how difficult the situation is, and I know that you will make the right call.

Best regards.

[Fleshdancer]

11. I'm surprised that I'm surprised by this

Wow. I'm just as bewildered as you are.

My first concern is does he know you? I'm assuming he probably doesn't, but I just want to make sure for your safety.

[Obamarama]

15. No, he doesn't know me.

He's an Evangelical Christian Mega Church pastor and I am a Reform Jew, lol. I only know who he is because of his prominence in the community.

[Fleshdancer]

37. That's a huge relief

:hug:

I think something should definitely be done, I just wish I knew how to advise you exactly. Since this person played a part in legalizing bigotry and discrimination, it only seems fair that he be called on his hypocrisy some how.

Please keep us updated if you can.

[peacetalksforall]

You should think back or read up on the Larry Craig defense and pay attention

to the legal stuff. You could go broke fast. You are not the policeman who was doing his job and difficult to fight.

I would direct your question to a lawyer who is on DU, not us - or try to get someone on DU who has connections with the law to answer your question.

'Or else' type threats are probably the last way you want to go.

Let the law work on it.

If the guy is who you say he is, there is a sorry hypocrite out there.

All you have is who he is and what you believe he intended. That is a lot going against you when the lawyers enter.

They can turn it around so fast - they could say you followed him.
Word against word.

Words from others are needed. Not easy if you're a busy person.

[peacetalksforall]

12. Self delete.

[peacetalksforall]

13. Self delete

[The Hope Mobile]

14. I'm from that area.

I'm sure you know you have to be really careful. I absolutely agree with speaking to an attorney but be most concerned for your own personal safety.

[rug]

16. If you really want to go down this road, just hire a private detective.

[jazzjunkysue]

59. That's it. Get an independent detective to verify how often this guy uses

open stall rest stops, with dates and photos, and then let the investigator hand it over to the authorities.

He's definitely going to do this again. These guys are easy to catch because they can't stop. It's not like a guy who holds up convenience stores once in a while. This guy will offer lots of opportunities to demonstrate probable cause to send in a plain clothes detective and set him up.

I don't think your photos would make him stop, and that's really what you want. Make him stop doing this in public, and get him out of the church pulpit.

[Ichingcarpenter]

18. Talk to a local reporter about this

One that you trust. We have local weekly news/magazines
that do good investigative news. I'm sure MI. has them too.

[roody]

19. Attend a service at which he is preaching.

Make him squirm.

[KittyWampus]

21. How do you know you got HIS license plate & not someone elses? How do you know it was his car?

please be careful

[Obamarama]

55. There was nobody else at the rest area at the time, so it couldn't have been anyone else's car.

[Parker CA]

22. I would make an anonymous call to the Police Dept. Tell them what happened, don't tell them

who you recognized, and let them know they need to set up surveillance or a sting on the location. If they choose to act on it, I'm sure you will see something in your local news, if not, you have to decide what is in your best interests. Anything beyond an anonymous tip to the local Police probably shouldn't, for many reasons, be pursued without legal counsel.

Good luck with this one. Quite an interesting situation to say the least.

[GoesTo11]

39. Agree and agree - hold fire, call cops, talk to lawyer

I think that if you just threatened the guy, he would deny it, people would rush to support him, and you would be ruined or killed or something like that.

But the fact that you have this info allows you to put things in motion with a call to the police. That is likely to lead to something and they guy's gay bashing days will have to end.

True, it would be a lot less disruptive to just have him withhold the motion, but that's his problem, not yours, and it's a direct consequence of his hypocrisy.

[Obamarama]

58. That's not a possibility, really, as far as I'm concerned...

I'm gay and I'm not about to target innocent people who might be cruising for sex there to be caught up in some sort of sting for the benefit of nabbing this one hypocrite. Granted I do not condone cruising for sex in public places, but I also realize that most of the men who do are married and cloested. For many, this is one of the few outlets they have. Again, I don't agree with it, but in puritan America that's one of the choices we force people to make.

In my estimation hey are innocent in that they are not out there publicly rallying to legalize discrimination while at the same time trying to pick up guys for sex at the rest areas they cruise. They are already putting themselves at risk for arrest and exposure, and understanding the pathology of why some of them choose this risky behavior, I'm not going to needlessly target them.

I want this one guy taken down, and this guy alone.

[Parker CA]

71. I understand that motivation and respect that decision. I think your only other options would

then be to hire an attorney and dive into this head first, which may create many downsides, both financially and socially if word leaks out.

Another option would be to download the pictures to your computer, print them, type an anonymous statement of events and send them directly to the church where this man works to his attention and write "private matter" on the envelope. This could elicit a reaction of utter fear and cause this man to never engage in such activity again, or he could view it as a threat, report it, and have them trace it back to you. Your method would need to be seamless and very clean in its execution. It may be that likelihood of this man divulging the details of this letter to anyone would be fairly low due mainly to his embarrassment and fear that the public would learn of this episode, but you may be dealing with someone who is going to view it only as an attack, a potential PR opportunity (some people are sick), a chance to target the gay population in your city, and thus, he may respond with full force. It is very tough to predict how someone will react to such a situation without knowing their psychological temperament and inclinations. Personally, this would not be an option for me, it is way too sticky a situation, and this may be illegal. I'd call the police, but since you feel that is not the right choice, you should consider other options.

Understanding that you do not want to disrupt the private engagements of those that use this bathroom for their encounters, I would only offer that this was likely not this mans first incident, that there could be other victims involved that are tight-lipped about it, and that what you experienced may be on the less severe end of the spectrum in terms of what went on in that bathroom.

Only you can gauge to what extent your values dictate to you your potential options, but if anonymously contacting the police is out, you're clearly left with fewer paths to select from.

Whatever your decision may be, I would keep it private from this point on, as you never know who is reading this, what their connections to this man may be, and you don't want to compromise your situation in any degree if you are going to be pursuing any of your potential options.

Sounds like it's time to lawyer-up. Good luck!

[LisaL]

23. As far as I understand it, you only have evidence that somebody

parked at the rest area.
You say the guy moved his hand toward you? I don't think that's a crime unless he actually touched you.

[Barack_America]

28. Oh please.

Who goes into a stall, only to emerge and use a urinal?

And, I don't have a penis myself, but I imagine that holding one to urinate and "playing" with one are pretty distinct actions and noticeably so.

[LisaL]

29. My point is, OP doesn't have evidence that the guy was doing anything.

It will be his word against the guy's.

[Barack_America]

31. That is the call of the police or the DA.

What this person did to the OP was wrong and offensive. Regardless of the "evidence", the OP should feel free to contact the police regarding this incident, should that be what he decides to do.

It is the OP's right, and possible duty, to report the crime. It is the job of the police and the DA to build a case.

[CoffeeCat]

26. Here's an option...

I would return to that restroom wearing one of those baseball caps with a camera in it.

I'd return until it happened again. Get it on film.

Blackmail and extortion are illegal. So don't threaten him.

However, I would sure as hell give the video to the media, and to the police. Expose
this hypocrite.

The fallout alone will sink their effort.

[LisaL]

27. Blackmail and extortion are illegal.

But I presume so is videotaping someone in the restroom. Furthermore, there are other people using this restroom, not just this guy.
The OP could end up in prison using this advice.

[stillcool]

33. I would presume..

exposing yourself in a 'public' restroom isn't so 'legal' either. I think a cell-phone image would work just fine.

[LisaL]

52. Cell phone image would work just fine? Yea, if you want to end

up in jail labeled a "pervert" for filming someone in a restroom.

[stillcool]

62. You can't record a crime..

in a public restroom? Unless you have a badge I suppose..then it's fine?

[noamnety]

40. Hmmm.

videotaping men at urinals without their permission. Nothing can go wrong with this plan.

I suppose you could try sending a tip here: http://www.blogactive.com/

[Parker CA]

45. I WOULD NOT consider taking any form of camera into a public restroom, even if the guy is in there.

You could lose every bit of potential leverage you have right now and end up in jail if the wrong person is in that bathroom.

Public restrooms and cameras do not mix.

Again, place an anonymous call to the Police, suggest setting up surveillance on the location immediately. This definitely should not be something that local law enforcement would take lightly, and I imagine one way or another, you will be reading about their investigation in the local paper.

[stillcool]

30. I hope someone comes along...

that can give you some good advice! Be nice to stake-out the joint next Saturday night!

[Mari333]

32. wow you live near me

Im near Glenn. Hello, neighbour...:)

[kentuck]

34. Just be honest about it.

Tell the leaders of his church. Let them make your name public if they want- you are the Good Samaritan. That is just my opinion.

[Wilber_Stool]

35. Call his pesonal

number from a pay phone and say "I know what you do at rest stops." It will give him something to think about.

[BlueManDude]

38. Were there any other cars in the lot? Why do you think it was his?

[mitchum]

41. Tell that grifter to give you a cut from the collection plate

[knitter4democracy]

43. That's state police territory, and I'd call them and ask them what to do.

They're pretty good in our area, though overworked and understaffed. It's something I know that's been done in the past (I grew up south of Lansing, and I well remember the big stink a huge police sting and raid of a rest area on 127 made for years afterward), so I'd be surprised if they didn't take it seriously.

[Barack_America]

44. Are there still cameras in Michigan rest areas?

I remember there being a huge debate when some were installed back in the 80's.

[knitter4democracy]

50. You know, I don't know.

That would be a good question to ask the state police.

[Barack_America]

53. Chances are that the guy was hanging out in the stall for a while.

Wonder if a state cop happened to drive through the rest area and note the car, if not the license plate.

So yeah, I agree that the Michigan State Police would be a good resource to contact.

[Catherine Vincent]

46. Wow!

I don't know what I'd do in that situation.

[Tsiyu]

48. Contact nearby GLBT Organizations and tell them what you saw

And see if the suggestion above - to hire a private investigator - would be in their budget (perhaps a member is a PI?)

Blackmail won't work, showing up yourself puts you in danger you don't need, having cops stake out the place puts other GLBT people in danger given the current climate.

But this asswipe needs to be exposed. I have no problem with dude's proclivities, but he sure does. And I am sick of those freaking forked-tongued cretins. Why, oh Why do they insist on doing this crap?

It's gotten to the point that as soon as somebody says they're "family values" oriented I am sure they are closet cases.

Be careful, go to a lawyer and then contact groups fighting for your rights. They may have resources you haven't thought of yet.

Good luck.

[Seen the light]

49. There are only so many megachurch pastors in Kalamazoo that are against the ordinance

If I was from Kalamazoo, I could probably figure out who you were talking about. Unfortunately I'm not.

[knitter4democracy]

51. I've got my suspicions.

I can only think of two churches that are that outspoken, but I could be wrong.

[Bertha Venation]

56. If only hypocrisy were illegal.

I'm sorry I have no advice for you in your dilemma. Good luck, Obamarama.

[chrisa]

60. I'm sorry to hear that.

What a digusting old creep. This furthers my belief that the anti-gay crowd are a bunch of self-loathing bigots.

[Obamarama]

63. Thanks for the plethora of advice, people....

First of all, I want to make a very important distinction. Some of you posted about how I should be offended and how terrible it was for this guy to make a move on me, as if this is what I want him held accountable for. Yes, his advances were unwelcomed but good grief...I was hardly scarred for life. What I want him held accountable for is not the crime of soliciting me for sex...I want him either A)to stop being a bullhorn for discrimination against the GLBT community; OR B)be publicly humiliated for being a hypocrytical, duplicitous asshole.

I like Guy Noir, but I'm not going to be assuming his role anytime soon so while I thought the camera in the baseball cap suggestion was a really cool and intruiging idea, it's a little impractical. Plus it would neccessitate me hanging out at the rest area, too, so again...not an option.

I've had time to digest this and think it through since I first posted this yesterday. I posted it shortly after I got home and I was still giddy with the possiblity of bringing this guy down and was sort of thinking out loud in my original post. Last night I was in bed thinking about this and it was then that the answer was right in front of my face.

I have some connections in both the law enforcement and broader community that will know what do to. These connections are both understanding and supportive of GLBT issues and are against the very brand of hypocrisy this guy is practicing. They will trust me when I bring this information to them and they will know what direction, if any, can and should be taken.

That being said, I have to say I liked the ideas about showing up at his church and making him squirm, and the one about calling him and saying "I know what you do at rest areas" (ala I know what you did last summer), but I need to play this one above the table.

[Stevenmarc]

64. If a high profile guy is so stupid to be cruising a tea room

then the chances are fairly good that your dilemma will sort itself out when he encounters someone else more willing to insert themselves in the shit storm that is sure to follow the outing.

[file83]

73. More likely, the guy is going to get his ass kicked.

Doing the kind of shit is insane - there are more than enough violent homophobes out there just dying to have an excuse to beat the crap out of a gay guy and would feel justified in doing so in a situation described by the original poster.

So, for that guy's safety, it might be a good idea if the police caught him first.

[Stevenmarc]

74. And if he gets his ass kicked

he would certainly have a lot of explaining to do. In the OP the issue wasn't the pros or cons of tea room sex it was all about exposing a hypocritical fundi pastor who wanted to diddle in the mens room and to that end I totally oppose getting the police involved.

Having sex in a mens room is not my cup of tea, so to speak, but police involvement can only insure one thing, a whole lot of harassing and entrapment of people who are not the object of the OP's dilemma, quite frankly I wouldn't be surprised if the pastor didn't get tipped off by a cop that belonged to his congregation.

[radfringe]

65. don't bother with the police

you don't have anything other than circumstantial evidence and like you said - it's your word against his.

he's a "pastor of a mega-church" and you're not - who will the cops believe?

I would get in touch with local GLBT organization - they may have some contacts with reporters who may be inclined to investigate further.

If not, the GLBT organization may be willing to write up an op-ed and get it circulated. Come at it from the side, as opposed to head on.

[Maestro]

66. First, I am sorry you had to experience this.

Secondly, it just makes me mad as hell that these hypocrites are out there like this so blatantly doing that which they rail against. I think I would not risk the attacks that you will undoubtedly have to endure as a gay man so I would just alert the police to what is happening there. He'll get caught.

[ddeclue]

67. You don't really have any proof and YES this would be black mail

and would get you into trouble with the law if you tried to use it to extort a particular vote, etc. from him. You could also be sued for defamation of character and it could cost you a fortune even if you win.

The only thing you could do would be to:

1) Send an anonymous tip to law enforcement that this is happening in this rest room but you may catch and ruin other people besides the afforementioned minister in the process.

2) Send an anonymous tip to the media and let one of them catch the guy.

Doug D.

[Missy Vixen]

69. Talk with the police

In the meantime, please Google "Bob Moorhead" and "Overlake Christian Church, Redmond, WA".

Let's just say that Rev. Moorhead also liked rest areas.

[Stevenmarc]

70. I wouldn't talk to the police

The only result would be a whole lot of harassment and entrapment of people other than than the subject of your dilemma.

[dgibby]

72. Go to an attorney.

Do not take any action without legal advice. Also, since this is a mega church, it would probably be better if you got advice from someone you know for certain is not associated with the pastor or the church.

As for your questions re: blackmail, extortion, I believe you would be dangerously close to being charged with either/or both. I'm not a lawyer, but my dad was police chief and my mother was a justice of the peace, so am somewhat familiar with the law (at least in Va.).

Remember, this guy will be desperate if he feels threatened, so please be careful. No doubt he and his followers could create a great deal of trouble for you. Good luck!

[Kip Humphrey]

75. Call the Enquirer... make a buck.