Bank of America: Yeah it sucks that your mom died but PAY HER F**KING CREDIT CARD BILL !!!!!

[marmar]

via MichaelMoore.com:



February 6th, 2009 2:28 pm
How Theresa Hatt Caused The Financial Crisis

By Zachary Roth / TPM Muckraker


Last month, Theresa Hatt died at 52, after a brief struggle with cancer.

Hatt, who lived in Portland, Maine, and worked for the city of Scarborough, had had several credit cards in her name. So, shortly after her death, Hatt's son, Paul Kelleher, began the sad task of calling his mother's creditors, to inform them of her passing.

The calls were uneventful, if depressing, until Kelleher got to Bank of America. Here is how he says his conversation with a representative of the company's estates unit went:

Paul Kelleher: Yes, I'm calling to inform you that my mom died on the 24th of January.

Bank of America Estates representative: I'm sorry. Oh, it looks like she never even missed a payment. That's too bad. Well, how are you planning to take care of her balance?

PK: I'm not going to. She has no estate to speak of, but you should feel free to just go through the standard probate procedure. I'm certainly not legally obligated to pay for her.

BOA: You mean you're not going to help her out?

PK: I wouldn't be helping her out -- she's dead. I'd be helping you out.

BOA: Oh, that's really not the way to look at it. I know that if it were my mother, I'd pay it. That's why we're in the banking crisis we're in: banks having to write off defaulted loans.

"I lost it there," Kelleher, a mild-mannered 30-year-old who lives in Brookline, Mass., where he works remotely for a Washington DC-based non-profit, told TPMMuckraker. When pressed, he said, the estates rep backed off that last claim, but only a little, continuing to suggest that cases like his mothers had played a role in the financial crisis. ........(more)

The complete piece is at: http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/latestnews/index.php?id=13351

[Captain Hilts]

1. My family has been wrestling/arguing over this. Instincts are to pay, we're STILL arguing about it.

[4 t 4]

9. Don't pay you

are not responsible for Anyone else's debt and more now then ever with what they have done. They are thieves.

[w4rma]

11. Don't pay. The law says not to. (nt)

[AZ Criminal JD]

35. What law is that?

[liberalhistorian]

40. Creditor/debit law and probate law.

You are not responsible for a deceased family member's debt, period. Only the estate is responsible and creditors must file a claim with the estate within a certain amount of time during the probating of the estate. The only time you're responsible is if you're s spouse living in a community property state or it was a joint account, or if you co-signed with the family member on the loan or card. Otherwise, you are NOT responsible. Creditors know this, but they also know that too many people don't know this and they take advantage of both that and the vulnerability of grief. Disgusting scum and BOA is the worst with this.

[AZ Criminal JD]

54. I am familiar with those laws

However those laws don't say "not to pay it". Cite me that law.

[Captain Hilts]

63. Most people do not inherit significant sums. In those cases, heirs are being told ..

they have to pay off the bills when they've inherited no money to do so.

THAT's the problem.

Where there IS money, such as in my mother's estate, they're trying to get us to pay NOW even though the estate is not settled.

[readmoreoften]

76. Look it up for god sakes. It's common knowledge.

It's not everyone's job to school you here. The poster gave you a breakdown. If you want a legal opinion, go hire a lawyer or search for yourself. Good god!

[ProdigalJunkMail]

79. the lawyer you are arguing with is correct

the problem however is most likely a very minor misunderstanding. the law does not say, "Do not pay the debt." however, the law does state that you are not responsible for that debt. the payment of a such a debt, should the estate not be able to cover it, would be purely voluntary as the creditor could not come after you for the loan...they could only go after the estate.

sP

[Butch350]

128. Ah.. read between the line or listen between the lines.

[Yes We Did]

133. Seriously...

You need to be told not to? You feel some obligation to the banks?

[liberalmike27]

77. Perhaps

The family should pile all of her shit onto the lawn of the CC company, and get Michael Moore to film it.

What was it in one of the Ocean's movies, where the old guy said he wanted to go out with an empty account, and his last check bouncing? I forget, but if I can't end up rich, which at some point you realize you are not going to be, then I'd just as soon leave sticking big banks with the bill.

I mean, they screw us, let's face it, all of our lives, wheedling pennies, dimes, nickles, and dollars from us, with their 2x percent rates, and fees, and bills. And these are millionaires and billionaires who are taking way too much from just ordinary workers.

I saw "The Cradle Will Rock" the other night, and one of the old rich coots was talking and said something that is so true. He said, you've got to give them their dollar an hour, and find a way to take back two. It was so true, as to make a guy like me find it memorable. They certainly have done that in many, many ways.

[liberalhistorian]

41. Do not pay, you are not responsible. Let the creditors

make a claim with the estate and go through probate, the way they're legally supposed to. Do not let them guilt you into paying what it is not your responsibility legally to pay.

[AnneD]

138. That's why credit card debt is basically....

an unsecured loan. Unless your name is on the credit card app. you are not responsible for the deceased's debt. This is another CC company scheme to squeeze the last drop of blood from an exsangunated corpse. Let them stand in back of the line in probate.

[AnneD]

139. Sorry

the dread double post.

[Gormy Cuss]

49. You may not be obligated, but I understand the instinct.

If I knew in my heart that the deceased would have wanted the debts paid (and the survivors could swing it) it'd be a no brainer for me.


on edit: been there, and we paid all the debts that would have mattered to her, like the paper delivery person, the utilities, the rent. The one place we ignored was a QVC-type place because they were idiots about trying to collect it.

[mimitabby]

108. put the shoes on the other foot

You're dying and you owe $40,000. Do you want your children to have to pay it? NO WAY!

[Gormy Cuss]

110. It'd be up to me to tell my children that.

And yes, if I had that size debt and my estate couldn't pay it -- unlikely since I own a house -- then I would tell my children my wishes.

What they did would be up to them because they would not be obliged legally and that is as it should be.

[backscatter712]

59. If she has an estate, pay. If she doesn't, tell the creditors they're SOL.

That's the rule.

If she doesn't have an estate, you have absolutely no obligation to pay. Debts are not inherited. This isn't India.

[Left Coast2020]

149. Exactly. Just send an original death certificate and noterized

statement, and be done with it. That is what you do with all other businesses. The city/county corner can issue several death certs. if you need them, then you send to each business or whatever. End of story.

[Captain Hilts]

2. Also, Mom hadn't been dead a month when QVC sold her debt to them to a collector.

I was flooded with calls, letters, etc.

QVC takes advantage of old, lonely people then screws their kin over.

[joeybee12]

4. They have no legal right to collect from you...

...but that probably doesn't stop them from trying.

[Captain Hilts]

5. Tell my kin that!

[w4rma]

12. Your kin are getting scammed by con-artists. Help them. (nt)

[joeybee12]

14. Tell your kin to tell the collectors they are harrassing them and will

seek legal redress, if necessary...threaten them...that's the only thing they'll react to.

[bdab1973]

137. This is common, even with living people...a major scam...

I was victim of it a couple years back. I received a notice in the mail stating that I owed several hundred dollars from a past due debt, and this company said they were the collection agency, and I had a choice of either paying the debt or filing a dispute.

I called and asked them what it was for, and they said it was an AT&T cell phone bill from 2002 that had gone unpaid. The woman on the other end of the phone was actually very rude and treated me like a felon, stating "sir, this is from an account you had with them and failed to pay your balance from five years ago. They gave us the account to collect, and now you are obligated to pay or your credit rating will be affected". I told her I'd get back to them.

I did not have AT&T cell phone service back then, I had Cingular, which had been bought by AT&T earlier that year. I called AT&T and gave them the account number, and they said they had no account number under that. I asked them to check to see if I had any history of any unpaid debt, and they even dug through Cingular records, and they could find nothing. I called the collection agency back, and again spoke to someone who was generally rude (they all act like you are a criminal escaping justice), and informed them that AT&T had no record of me ever owing anything, and since I've been a Cingular customer since 2000, I didn't understand where this was coming from. I have never had another cell phone account. They repeated that AT&T had given them the account, and I should stop being so difficult and just pay them before they reported me.

So I called AT&T back, and finally got ahold of someone who worked delinquent accounts. I told them who the company was, and they explained to me that when companies like Cingular and AT&T merge, they often go through all their old audits and financial records, and anything resembling discharged or overdue debt is "sold off" to credit companies like them. She explained that this company was not HIRED by AT&T, but simply bought thousands or millions of their debt, to recover on their own. She went further to explain that sometimes financial records are incomplete or inaccurate, and somewhere, somehow, Cingular may have shown at one time that I was delinquent (which they would because when I used to pay online, their online "system" wouldn't talk to their other "system" and show me as being over due despite having already paid), and that record somehow was never deleted from the old financial records. Instead of spending millions to work out the kinks of the two financial systems, AT&T saved themselves the time and just wrote off any alleged outstanding debt by selling it to these companies for pennies on the dollar. They likely bought my "debt" for a buck or two, and then came after me for the $200-300 they said I owed them.

She then went on to explain that often times, these companies will focus on debt that's not extreme, but small amounts (like $50, or $200, etc), and send out notices threatening to turn them in to a credit bureau. Many times, she explained, people simply say "eh, it's just $50 or so" and pay it, not knowing whether the amount was an actual charge off or just a clerical mistake. The collection company in turn makes a tidy profit, and even if only 10% or 20% of those sent notices pay, they still make off well. The staff are often told to be abusive and stern, to scare the victim into paying.

I thanked her for letting me know how it works...I couldn't blame her, she only answers the phone...she doesn't make the million dollar deals selling this info away. But it still pissed me off that companies do that. In any case, I called the collection company back and told them I wasn't paying and to report me if they had to. They never reported me, and I never paid.

So...don't pay it. It's a high pressure game they are playing you guys, and betting that you'll cave and pay.

[ddeclue]

16. Call your state's attorney general and file a complaint!

and call your state's Secretary of State and have any business licenses they have there put under investigation.

:argh:

[man4allcats]

25. Take it from me, answering machines work.

Invest $15.00 or $20.00 in one, hook it up, turn the phone's ringer off so you won't be bothered by the rings and leave the answering machine's speaker on so you can hear and monitor when someone calls. Then let the assholes talk to the damn machine all they want. I remember a certain law office of Mr. Fuck (not his real name }( ) who talked to my machine for about six or eight, maybe even ten months before they finally got tired and quit calling. I never did discover what Mr. Fuck wanted. Assuming it wasn't a social call, I never picked up the phone to find out.

[CrispyQ]

53. Years ago when we were losing our house during the S&L crisis,

we were so frickin' tired of the calls! As soon as we made a payment the CC company would be on the phone the very next day asking for more. There was never any relief! So my husband change our intro message to "Hello. We are currently vacationing in Hawaii. Leave a message & if we decide to return, we'll call you back."

About three weeks later, the worst offender of the bunch finally got my husband on the phone. "Well you had money to go to Hawaii!" he ranted, when my husband told him we didn't have a payment. My husband said, "Obviously I didn't go Hawaii. I just needed some relief from your constant harassment." When my husband threatened to declare bankruptcy the guy backed off. Of course, that was long before they changed the bankruptcy laws.

They offer easy credit without doing due diligence & they whine when it backfires & they want to put it all on us. I wonder how much longer Americans are going to take being screwed like this.

[man4allcats]

65. Once about 35 years ago when I was still young - ah those were the days -

I remember getting something in the mail from some bill collector. I can't recall what it was about now. It couldn't have been much. Back then I didn't really have much of anything that might warrant the services of a bill collector, but somebody still wanted their ounce of flesh. I had heard from this character several times before. I do remember that. I decided I'd had enough so I wrote on the envelope "Addressee Deceased. Return To Sender." and stuck it back in the mail. Believe it or not, I never heard from him again.

[Glenda]

70. LOLOL!!!

"I remember a certain law office of Mr. Fuck (not his real name }( )..."

:rofl:

[Politicalboi]

127. LOL! You may have been a Millionaire

Or you may have been sued. I probably would have done the same thing you did.

[Politicalboi]

126. You can sue them for harassment

And bill them for the time you had to deal with their BS. Others have done it. Even a threat might shut them down. Listen to or check out Bill Handel on the law or you can listen Saturday mornings. He loves when people call him with nasty creditors.

[rug]

3. Don't tell any more banks. Wait till they hire a lawyer and try to serve her.

[bluestateguy]

6. As I understand, doesn't the debt die with the person?

Creditors can make their claim upon the estate before it is dispersed, but once the estate is gone (or if there are no assets) the debt(s) dies with the person.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

[WolverineDG]

8. At least in Texas,

if there are no exempt assets, there's nothing to collect on & no one to collect from.

dg

[proud2BlibKansan]

13. Just lost my mom 2 years ago

Her attorney told us not to pay any of her bills. And we didn't.

[robinlynne]

36. Yes. You are right.

[liberalhistorian]

42. Yes, that is quite correct. Creditors must make a claim with

the estate within a certain amount of time and they must wait in line with all the other creditors. Secured debt is paid first, then unsecured, and if there's not enough to cover everything then tough shit. Creditors cannot legally harass family members and they damn well know that. They just take advantage of people not knowing the law and run ragged over them.

[K Gardner]

50. Agreed. Went through this with my mom's death 7 years ago. Eventually, they send a form

for the IRS where they've written it off as bad debt.

[garybeck]

73. seems like you're saying if the deceased person owed any money

if the creditors file the appropriate claims, they do get their money before the inhertance beneficiaries?

in other words, let's just say a person dies and they have $10,000 savings and $10,000 credit card bill. if the credit card company fills out the forms on time, they get all the money and the person's next of kin get zero?

[ddeclue]

75. That sounds about right to me.

The estate has to pay off creditors first.

[Statistical]

115. Exactly.

If the deceased has used the $10,000 to pay the $10,000 in debts before they died the estate would have been worth $0 anyways. Or if they didn't charge up $10,000 in debt they wouldn't have had $10,000 in cash to buy the $10,000 worth of assets. Right?

Creditors are ALWAYS paid before any inheritance can be passed on.

Another way to look at it is:
someone with $10,000 in assets and $10,000 in debts has a net worth of $0.
someone with $0 in assets and $0 in debts has a net worth of $0.
someone with $1,000,000 in assets and $1,000,000 in debts has a net worth of $0.

In all three cases nothing is passed on. You can't pass on something you don't own.

There is no free lunch. The only "good thing" about probate is debts isn't passed forward.
If the hypothetical person had $10,000 in assets and $25,000 in debts. The creditors would only get $10,000 and have to write off the rest as a loss.

[Statistical]

118. Unless creditor wasn't notified.

It is the responsibility of the person handling the estate to notify all creditors of the death.

Example:
If you are handling a relatives estate and you get their mail forward to you. You see a credit card from say BofA open it up and see a $50,000 balance. Knowing that will take a large chunk of the estate you throw it away.

Rest of creditors file claims, probate ends, and estate is dispersed.

If proven your actions now make you liable for the debt (in addition to committing fraud).

However if all creditors are notified, given chance to submit a claim and don't due to a failure on their part then yes then any debt dies once the estate is disbursed.

It is always a good idea to hire a lawfirm with any estate involving a substantial sum (virtually any home that is paid off will be substantial estate).

They will ensure all documents are sent certified and keep the necessary paper trail to prevent a creditor in the future from claiming they were not notified and seeking damages.

[AnneD]

140. Depends on the debt.....

if it is a secured debt, they are paid out of the estate in probate. Credit card debt is unsecured and if they make it to probate-they are at the end of the line otherwise the debt dies with the individual-that is the risk you take with unsecured debt. That's why many banks (though they won't admit it don't loan to folks after their 70's unless it can be secured).

[NC_Nurse]

7. Somebody called in to Clark Howard with the same problem last week. He was

PISSED OFF at the bank and had his producer call them and rail them. They called the guy and apologized.
Beautiful.

[valerief]

10. Golly, what did they do before the financial crisis? Who did they blame then? nt

[ddeclue]

15. FUBOA....Fuck You Bank of America!

:argh:

Hey Bank of America - you created the situation by which this poor woman (literally poor) was stuck in debt to you her ENTIRE life until she passed away - and you honestly now have the nerve to ask her CHILDREN to pay off her debt?

Jump up our collective ass and die BofA!

:nuke:

[Speciesamused]

81. Well said they did get themselves into this mess

if you know the facts you know this. The are legal loan sharks, period.

[Berry Cool]

17. Lost my mom in 2000. Oldest sister got calls from her creditors about her unpaid balances.

She told them all where to get off. She knows we're not legally liable for our mom's debts. If they wanted to give credit to a woman in her 70s knowing that she might die and have no estate to collect from, that's their problem. Banks are supposed to write off that kind of stuff. If they can't afford to do it, they either shouldn't be in business at all or should stop giving credit to elderly people, period.

Blaming the current crisis on bereaved people not paying their dead loved one's bills...sheesh. Stay classy, Bank of America!

[AZ Criminal JD]

37. So if financial institutions stopped giving credit to people over 60

and those with severe medical conditions, etc., What would you say then? You would be screaming your head off about discrimination and how there should be laws to force them to give credit to those who need it.

[dothemath]

96. wtf?

Is this your version of one component of Universal Health Care?

Let's see if I have this right. Granpa, for one reason or other, has gotten old and sick without the means to pay for his medical needs. He has a credit card, ergo, the credit issuer MUST pour someone else's money down a rat hole.

What a concept! Fits right in with every unworkable scheme the current crop of geniuses in Wash. keep coming up with to keep themselves in power.

Arrrrggghhhh!

PS I am an old granpa, so think before you ....... never mind.
Morans - gotta love them - not.

[leftofthedial]

18. We paid our mom's credit card bills when she died.

It was the right thing to do. She would have wanted it that way.

The biggest one called us and made a settlement offer $2000 less than the balance.

[w4rma]

19. If she had an estate, then yes. If not, then the banks set the rates for all to accommodate deaths.

If that money didn't come out of her estate, you just gave away your new car (or computer, depending on what she owed) to already wealthy banks. Not smart.

If it wasn't long ago, you might think about calling them up about getting your money back. (You'll probably need a lawyer at this point, however.)

[leftofthedial]

20. yeah, I'm a dumbass.

[wtmusic]

24. Instead of honoring your Mom's wishes, you coulda had a new car!

:eyes:

[leftofthedial]

27. LOL

It was nowhere near enough for a new car. Plus, we did pay it from her estate, although had we not paid it that would have been our money.

[w4rma]

29. I believe you have to pay it if there is enough in the estate. Ask a lawyer about that though. (nt)

[liberalhistorian]

44. The ESTATE is responsible, not the family

members, period. If there isn't enough in the estate to cover everything in accordance with the hierarchy of debt (secured debts first, i.e., mortgage, etc., then unsecured, i.e. credit cards, etc.), then tough shit for the creditors. They CANNOT legally come after the family members or ding their credit, period.

[Captain Hilts]

58. Right, but they're trying to get money from us NOW when we've other bills to pay...

her cremation expenses, house maintenance and repair, etc.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

90. Credit Card Debt Comes Before Funeral Costs Etc In The Hierarchy.

If there's money in the estate, legally it must be used to pay off debt first such as mortgages/credit cards.

[Kansas Wyatt]

99. I would not give them your or anyone's name, and just send them a copy...

Of the death certificate, and that's it. If they call, tell them whoever they are asking for is dead and end the call, and disconnect the dead person's number. If they call you at your number or contact you, just reply that the person died and you are too upset to talk about it and end the conversation. Also instruct them to stop harassing you, and tell them you are keeping an electronic record of their harassment. Give them NO information.

They want to screw everyone over, so piss on them.

[Statistical]

107. If the estate has value attempting to dodge the debt can be very expensive

The purpose of probate is ONLY to notify about debts, verify accuracy, and arrange in order of payment.

If you KNOW a debt exists and pretend it doesn't allow the estate to exit probate and collect the liability can transfer to you.

Not only are you liable for the debt, you have committed fraud, and can be liable for punitive damages. You can guarantee any major creditor has well paid hired guns to extract the maximum punitive damages.

You can not hide a debt from the estate.

If a lawyer is handling the estate then give contact information for the law firm.
If you or family member is handling the estate then:
1) consider using a law firm
2) you must deal with creditors.

Even if a creditor fails to file in probate if you are AWARE of the debt and don't seek repayment you have committed fraud. Your liability becomes the existing debt, any civil and/or criminal penalties, and any punitive damages.

Also remember what matter is the estate VALUE not cash.
Say a relative dies penniless but they own a house (paid in full) worth $200,000. They house has furniture, jewelry, personal items, etc worth another $10,000 (if sold in an estate sale for pennies on the dollar).

They also have a used car worth $10,000.

The estate is worth $220,000 even if the deceased has $0 in the bank.

Now say the deceased has $50,000 in credit card bill total and a $3,000 note on the car. Also assume there is no other debts. That $53,000 MUST be paid before anything is distributed from the estate. It may require an estate sale, or selling the vehicle, or selling the home but the $53,000 must be paid FIRST.

If you wanted to own/live in the home you may need to take out a mortgage in order to satisfy the debts. Even a simple estate can get tricky if the assets are not liquid (cash, bonds, CD, etc) so getting a good probate/estate attorney is a good idea.

[Kansas Wyatt]

129. If one is too upset to deal with anyone and avoids people they don't know...

Kind of hard to say that you knew something, especially if you just aren't very good with all the scattered paperwork and mail. Plausible deniability, works both ways. Until people start treating Corporate America, the same way it treats us, people will continue to take the shaft every time. After all, it works for Corporate / Government officials, so it's good for the people as well.

Obviously, what I'm talking about is someone who wasn't worth anything or next to nothing, and a loan shark corporation begins circling. If someone had thousands in an estate and liabilities, then a lawyer is the best option.

[leftofthedial]

60. yet.

give the DLC a few more years.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

89. Only A Spouse.

[Celebration]

32. In THAT case, the estate was legally obligated

We are talking oranges and apples here. IMHO, nobody should feel morally obligated to pay a deceased relatives' debts. On the other hand, if an estate is left, creditors are paid first, per the law. It is a legal as well as moral obligation.

[wtmusic]

33. You mean fucking over "the big corporations" isn't always morally right? nt

[w4rma]

34. You don't give away money to scam artists. The scam artists are breaking the law, not you. (nt)

[deaniac21]

113. You should be ashamed for being ethical.

[leftofthedial]

147. I'm such a loser.

[blueknight]

28. my mom died in 2001

owed about 900 dollars to discover card. my mom rented, owned no property, and lived off her pension. discover called me and TRIED to harass me into paying. after a few minutes of terse conversation, i told the lady just like this. " listen bitch, you are not getting a fucking penny from me, so go fuck yourself. and if you call me again i will sue you". its been 9 years, never heard back from her

[w4rma]

30. These banks are trying to play off folks' lack of understanding of the law.

I'm positive that they have scammed many people out of money that they didn't owe in this manner.

I'm 100% positive that the management has given word down the ranks to try to get money from next-of-kin when they don't owe it.

[roamer65]

Delete.

[wtmusic]

22. Kudos.

There is a way to approach this, and a way not to. BofA chose the wrong way.

[sendero]

23. If the estate ..

.... has the money to pay, you should. If not, the CC should have never loaned it to begin with, so I'd have no remorse about not paying.

[Still Sensible]

86. In most places, the debt gets taken care of

when the estate goes through probate. The administrator of the estate, in order to close it, files paperwork that details how the estate's debts were dealt with and how assets were distributed. I do not know what the common practice is for a situation where the assets of the estate are insufficient to cover the debts. I don't believe heirs can be forced to assume the debt if they were not a party to it. Any probate attorneys out there?

[Statistical]

116. Anyhing in excess is written off by creditor.

Not a probate lawyer but did go through probate for a relative.

If someone owes say $25,000 but has an estate worth $10,000 then creditors get it all ($10,000) and they have to write the other $15,000 off as a loss. They can't come after relatives for the reaming $15,000.

Where it gets tricky is if the person has sentimental items of value. Say a relative has $25,000 in debt and $10,000 in assets plus they have a car would loved worth another $10,000. The deceased leave the car to you in their will (they knew you loved it). Technically you can't have it. The car is an asset. Assets must be sold to pay debts.

What probate lawyer will do is determine the value the car would get if sold (say $10,000).
Then you have a choice to make:
1) sell the car as part of probate the $10,000 is added to the other assets (for total of $20,000) and creditors get it all.
OR
2) buy the car from the estate for $10,000 (once gain creditors get $20,000).

It gets even more complicated if the estate has property (real estate) and a lot of debts. The property was willed to a relative who wants to keep and not sell it but the person it was willed to doesn't have the credit to get a mortgage. The property is free and clear but before it can leave probate the other debts must be satisfied which requires a mortgage be taken out on the property to cover the remaining debts.

If it gets complicated get a probate lawyer.

[Captain Hilts]

62. We are negotiating in good faith. We want to be constructive...

but they're trying to shake it out of US before the estate has been settled.

One card offered us about a third off and we paid it. Everybody walks away happy.

The Visa card sponsored by USAA, of all companies, is really trying to wring us dry right NOW.

QVC sold her $400 debt to a creditor the minute they were informed she died. This creditor has rung my phone off the hook. Some "family," or "community" QVC claims to be.

[Turbineguy]

21. BofA contracts the credit card calling center out (at least they used to)

That's how they lost me as a customer a number of years ago.

[Aviation Pro]

26. This statement disturbs me....

...."Oh, it looks like she never even missed a payment. That's too bad."

To the motherfucker from BOA, is it too bad she never missed a payment because you couldn't jack up her interest rate or place a fee on her account or too bad because she died?

Given the BOA motherfucker's (who in this case is fucking a dead mother) attitude and the encouragement that the motherfucker receives from her boss motherfucker, I have no doubt what she meant.

Motherfuckers.

On edit: to the Greatest page with you.

[SOS]

31. Baloney

We went through this when my mother-in-law died. She was broke and left a $1,000 balance on her Visa card.
They tried, mercilessly, to collect from us until we told them we had hired a lawyer and looked forward to seeing them in court.
They never called again.

[Rhiannon12866]

38. My mother paid my father's.

They were charges for Christmas presents he bought for her, American Express. I knew, since I ordered them for him over the phone. He had throat cancer. Unfortunately, one special and rather pricey item didn't come, so I went out and bought it for her, from him. Never told my mother. ;(

[mimitabby]

109. very sweet!

[Rhiannon12866]

148. Thanks!

It was a very special Christmas for my mother, even though she couldn't stop crying. ;( :hi:

[Life Long Dem]

39. I don't know why we bail these guys out when they have tax havens offshore.

What's the connection? Obama has improved accountability and transparency for these corporations, but now they are offshoring because of transparency it seems. IBM just said to go to India to work because they are laying off 4000 workers.

http://money.cnn.com/2009/02/05/news/companies/ibm_jobs/

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2009/jan/16/report-over-8-in-10-corporations-have-tax-havens/

[Bluebear]

43. 'I wouldn't be helping her out -- she's dead. I'd be helping you out.'

I like that.

[Bryn]

45. Wow! If My Mom passes I wouldn't pay her debts one cent

or it'd have to come out of my own pocket since she has no estate, no property, etc. No I wouldn't. I'd tell them to fxxx off!

[ProgressiveProfessor]

46. Right answer here is to follow the law

If the estate has the money pay it. If it does not, the credit card holders are stuck with it.If they push, tell them to go away. If debt collectors get involved, make them follow the usual procedure and then they will go away too.

Do the right thing and it will go away.

[lse7581011]

47. A Question For You All

Now I'm worried if my name is on my Mom's checking account (for convenience purposes) does that make me in any way obligated to pay off her debts if, God forbid, something happened to her?

[K Gardner]

51. My brother and I both had our names on my mom's checking. It doesn't make any difference unless

you applied for the credit cards on a joint credit account.

[ddeclue]

61. I'm NOT an attorney but wouldn't any money in that account

be considered part of the estate to be used for paying debts?

[lse7581011]

64. That Would Be Fine

as I consider that her money and should be used to pay her debts however I was concerned that because of my name being on her account my house that I am desparately trying to pay off could be in danger! Thank you for your response!

[Statistical]

117. As long as you have no joint debts you are fine.

If you aren't sure then pull your credit report and make sure their are no joint debts.

[K Gardner]

67. It would, yes, if there were any left after settling the primary debtors of an estate, it'd

certainly be fair pickins for the creditors, good point.

[eilen]

80. If it is is a joint checking, the money belongs to the remaining owner.

If there is a joint debt, the debt is owned by the remaining owner.

On my father's estate, I paid his medical bills with money from the estate as well as his mortgage and common fees. When the condo sold, I owed no one anything from the balance after the bank was satisfied. I was able to distribute the money to his heirs. He was not in much debt but his investments were raped by Merrill Lynch. They stalled redeeming stock certificates and screwed us out of $7,000. They should owe us. I'd like to telephone Thain every three hours asking him "Where's my fucking money?"

I had done a bit of research and found that the initial investment originated with the childhood savings account of me and my brother including savings bonds etc. When my parents divorced my father took the bankbooks. Since he kept almost every piece of paper that crossed his desk it was an easy trace.

[hunter]

48. I'd be sad about my mom dying, but a call like this would have brightened my day.

I'd be :rofl:

I probably wouldn't even get so far as asking if it was some kind of sick joke, or maybe egging the caller on into a spittling conniption fit of empty threats and name calling.

My brother was worse. When his ex wife's mother died and one of her creditors called he said, "Why don't I just give you a blow job instead? You sound like you could use one."

They never called back.

[guruoo]

52. Want to stop the calls? - Tell the collector that you're recording them.

Works every time.

[wolfgangmo]

85. Honestly that is a great idea

Although a lawyer friend of mine said the better idea is to tape record them and then turn the tapes over to your lawyer. Then the real fun starts.

[Goblinmonger]

93. Be sure to check the laws

regarding recording conversations in your state first.

[guruoo]

130. You don't have to actually tape them, just tell them you will.

[Goblinmonger]

131. Good point.

But if you are in one of the 11(?) states that have two-party notification, they can just say they don't want it taped. Of course, that assumes they aren't stupid.

[guruoo]

143. Then they can choose between being taped or hanging up, which is what

AOL chose to do when they tried to make me pay for service
that I had not authorized. AOL said the conversation
would be recorded. I said I would also be recording it.
They said that my recording would violate their company policy.
I said that's not my problem. They then hung up, and never called back.

[Goblinmonger]

146. I think you and I would

get along just fine.

[AnneD]

141. In Texas.....

as long as one party (you) is aware of the taping-it is legal:evilgrin: God I love that law.

[Goblinmonger]

145. The majority of states have that law

Wisconsin does. I think there are 11 that have a two-party law.

[corpseratemedia]

55. I told one of the creditors that was harrassing me after one of my parents died

to call 1-800-HEAVEN, cuz that's where they'll have a possibility of getting any money from me

[roamer65]

56. LOL...good one.

[roamer65]

57. BofA can go fuck themselves. The cardholder dies, they are SOL.

Unsecured debt vaporizes upon your death, espcially if your estate is structured correctly. End of story.

[PurityOfEssence]

66. Is he collecting ANY inheritance? If so, the bills should be paid.

If the person died in debt, it's a de facto bankruptcy, but if heirs are getting assets without honoring debts, then they're in the wrong. The balance sheet of this person's life should be respected.

If his mother had NO estate, then I don't see how her heirs are responsible for her debts.

Being bound by one's word and responsible for one's actions is one of the few things that holds society together, and the convenient morality of the downtrodden casts a very nasty shadow on liberalism in general.

What's the full story?

[Pithlet]

68. It says right in the post there's no estate n/t

[PurityOfEssence]

69. "to speak of"; that's a bit different

I noticed that wording when first reading it and that's actually why I posted; none is different than some. That's why I posted as I did: my intent was pretty clear that if there were NO assets, then her debtors were pretty much SOL. If, however, there WERE assets, then her debtors should be honored, don't you think?

[ddeclue]

71. OK...so have a yard sale or estate "auction"

Put the proceeds into an estate account and pay out the $858.82 raised to the creditors.

:rofl:

[Ms. Toad]

83. The full story is

that regardless of whether she has assets or not, there are laws and regulations that BoA is well aware of as to the proper procedure to collect the debt from the estate. It had no business trying to collect directly from the heirs.

BoA figured it would get more dealing directly from the family than it would from the attorney handling the estate, who knows the law, and would only pay BoA what it was entitled to.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

91. Two Things.

Firstly, there's nothing wrong with speaking to them directly, especially when it was the son who called them.

Second of all, in most cases the executor of the estate isn't a lawyer. Typically, lawyers would only need to be contacted in a dispute or when they're a sizeable estate.

[TexasObserver]

72. Fair Debt Collection Practices Act prohibits such attempts.

Fair Debt Collection Practices Act prohibits such attempts.

15 U.S.C. §§ 1692

It's a federal law, and you should tell the creditor about it the first time they call, and advise them they can be sued and fined for each violation. Most debt collectors don't know squat about the laws controlling collections, so inform them, and tell them "I'm reporting you and your company to the FTC the next time you call." Then do it.

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/credit/cre27.pdf

You can sue them for it, so you'll need evidence. You get evidence by letting it go to your voicemail and getting them leaving a message.

[ddeclue]

74. They will absolutely refuse to leave a useful message

and will NOT talk to you if you say you are recording the call for your protection.

They don't want to get caught and aren't as dumb as you think.

[wolfgangmo]

87. As a private citizen you are not required to tell them that you are recording

As a company calling you they are required to tell you that they will/might be recording, however you are under no such requirement. REcord them. Don't tell them you are doing so until the court date.

I saw a friend of mine do this. It was fun to see their lawyer go from bluff and bluster to deflated and defeated in one breath after hearing one of the recordings. They settled on the spot for everything my friends lawyer asked for including his fee so my friend made out quite nicely.

[pipi_k]

98. This is actually illegal in some states

no matter who is on the other end.

It's illegal in Mass.

Both parties have to have knowledge of, and agree to, being taped.

Unless the tape is a result of someone leaving a message on an answering machine.

People need to check their state laws before doing something like this.

[TexasObserver]

104. You are correct, but it is always legal to use your voicemail recordings.

Which is why I recommended it.

They obviously know they're leaving you a recorded message when they opt to leave you a voicemail, and their consent to be recorded is implicit in the act of leaving such a message.

[pipi_k]

111. Yes, you are right...

voicemail/answering machine messages/email

it's all legal, as far as I know, and people need to save whatever of this type of thing they get.

If they live in a state where taping without the knowledge or permission of the other party is legal, then so much the better...

[TexasObserver]

105. Sure they will. I've handled cases where they have.

I got a friend $7500 in one such matter, where the bill collector left voice mail messages hounding him over a bill that was not his.

I've not recommended recording anyone, because (1) it's against federal law, and the calls are more likely to be interstate than intrastate, and (2) even if intrastate, many states prohibit such recordings unless consent is clearly given.

[Vinca]

78. Sometimes I wish I knew when I was going to die just so I could run

the credit cards up to their limits and stick the assholes with the bill.

[Night_Nurse]

124. No doubt. nt

[onethatcares]

135. many years ago I worked for a guy that did that.

maxed the cash out of all the cards the companies could send him. Then he died. He actually knew he was gonna go, and soon, so he figured he'd screw them.

[rambler_american]

82. BoA

is the worst of a bad bunch. Effing bloodsuckers, they.

[Bluenorthwest]

84. Thanks for the pep talk thread!

My goal for today is to rid myself of Bank of America. They have been screwing with me, also blathering about the 'crisis'. I noted last week that I don't have a crisis, they do. Each day I read two types of stories about Bank of America. One type is like this one, horrid business practices and a clear desire on their part to make thier problems into 'our' problem.

The second type is Bank of America complaining about lack of money, begging from the goverenment, buying things with our dime.

Enough.

[Bette Noir]

97. Good luck.

I've been trying to get rid of BofA for more than 20 years. They keep buying up the banks where I have accounts. It has happened at least half a dozen times.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

88. I'm Not Sure How Much I Believe The Details Of The Conversation, But The Estate Is Responsible To

pay the balance. He said there's no estate to speak of, but I find it hard to believe she died while owning absolutely nothing of value. Regardless, they'd have to go through probate and a court would have to determine how the debt would be funded, and if there are items worthy of sale etc. The son is not responsible for the payment, only a husband/spouse would be or the executor of the estate, if there is any estate or sellable items to speak of. If there's in fact no estate or no items that can be sold within the estate, then BoA is SOL.

[deaniac21]

114. Mr. Moore is not known for accuracy.

[Craftsman]

92. IRS

About 3 years after my Grandmother died the IRS wanted to audit her. He told them he had already settled the estate and taxes and if they wanted to talk to her get a Ouija board.

[calico1]

94. When my brother in law died a few years back

one creditor kept hounding my sister and nieces for some money he owed them. Several attempts to explain to them that he was dead did nothing to stop the hounding.

So finally one day they called. My youngest niece told them "you want to get my dad? Got a piece of paper and a pen? I'll give you his address." So whoever it was started writing it down. My niece gave them the address of the cemetery and the plot number of where he is buried. A couple of days went by and the caller told my niece that there must be some problem, some mistake. Did she know she had given them the address of a cemetery? My niece said yes. She told them "if you want your money you can go dig him up."

After that they stopped.

[pipi_k]

95. Hee hee

my mother did the same thing after my stepfather died...


Only she gave the person the actual name of the cemetery


the person on the other end got all snotty and said, "WELL!!! If THAT'S the way you want to be!!!!" and then hung up on my mom.

Not even an "I'm so sorry" from the nasty little asshole.

[dballance]

100. Another Reason for Credit Unions

I used to be a BoA customer - not by choice, by force. They bought the nice, friendly, local bank I did business with. Then they bought the car leasing company I leased my car with. As they devoured those smaller companies they fucked up my records royally. I paid my car payment on time to the old company not knowing that BoA had purchased them because I never got a notice of the sale or new address. Of course my check was cashed promptly but BoA didn't seem to know that - even though my checking account was a BoA checking account. So I started getting calls EVERY DAY from their collections department. The only thing that ended this madness was me conferencing in their bank and their leasing company on the same phone call. I had to MAKE two departments of the same company talk to one another. I had to yell and scream at them actually. Which is not what I wanted to do.

So I took my money, loans and business away from BoA and put them in my local credit union. Now I get a person who cares on the phone when I call. And, the person on the other end of the line is in the USA.

So screw Bank of America.

[pipi_k]

112. Credit unions...I agree

The Mr and I have switched our house mortgage over to a locally owned credit union. They are not that easy to get a mortgage or loan with, being as small as they are, because they can't afford to cover bad debts. So at least there's more peace of mind there...they've done thorough credit checks on everyone and seem to be quite solid and stable.

We also have two car loans through Pentagon Federal Credit Union, which is available to active/retired service people and family members, and I have a savings account and credit card through them also.


My other credit card is through Chase Bank and I haven't had any trouble with them yet, but if I do, I'll just kick them to the curb. Who needs the aggravation...

[Sheets of Easter]

101. Totally wrong. I used to work in colections,

and when a cardholder died, it immediately fell out of my hands and was picked up by the Profit and Loss department to be charged off. It sounds like someone was trying to meet a quota.

[Statistical]

106. Really.... must be a company that likes losing money

When someone dies it is common practice to file against the estate in probate.

Now if there is no estate or if the initial survey shows a deficient estate (more liabilities than assets) I can see going directly to charge off.

If the estate if funded no competent business would simply write off the debt.

All debts must be paid from the estate. If they didn't have to most people would simply max their credit cards with cash advances, gifts, and balance transfers (paying off children debt) right before they die.

Any creditor has a claim against the estate. Period.

Secured creditors have first claim, unsecured creditors come next, gifts (inheritence) comes last.

To the OP:
The BofA rep was way out of line. As soon as you advised of the death it should have been handled by probate department. Don't make the mistake of thinking that if a creditor doesn't file claim in probate you are in the clear. In probate the claim is just to advise you of a debt. If you are already aware of a debt you can't simply not pay it.

[WI_DEM]

102. that B of A representative should be fired.

[mwooldri]

103. THIS is why I call them WANK of America.

Eurgh :(

Seriously, BofA need to get insurance on their debt in case of their customers dying off and not being able to pay it.

Mark.

[Contrary1]

119. When my mom died, we paid some of her bills...

and let probate figure out the rest. She was not herself the last few months, and a few of the creditors had waited long enough. Her logic when it came to paying medical bills, was that if a particular bill she received was for exactly the same amount three times in a row, it was ok to pay it. :)

There was enough money left to cover it, and I kept records as to how much it cost us. It was submitted to the court along with everything else, and we were reimbursed. I realize that everyone does not have that option, so like others have advised, let the creditors go after it themselves.

[Seldona]

120. I wouldn't bank there if they paid me.

Puke-worthy.

[jb5150]

121. B of A is the absolute worst

Just curious, are there any online resources for finding out what the specific laws are in a particular state regarding defaulting on a credit card?

[Night_Nurse]

122. Hell, no... My mom is 84 years old...

and when her time comes, if there are any outstanding debts on her credit cards, there's no way I'm paying the greedy banks (not that I could afford to, anyway). They got our tax dollars.. f*ck 'em.

[mdmc]

123. too late to R

:toast:

[McCamy Taylor]

125. Bank of America told the Bush DOJ to attack Blago when they did.

[Politicalboi]

132. Don't die the next day

After getting your SS check. They take it back.

[ChiciB1]

134. CALL YOUR SENATOR OR REPRESENTATIVE!! Bank Of America Is One Of

THE WORST companies to be helpful. I fought for FOUR YEARS after taking their advice to pay as they researched a fraudulent account balance! I had even hired a lawyer and got NO WHERE! Almost 2 weeks ago I decided to call Senator Bill Nelson with my problem, he assigned a person to work on my problem. Within TWO DAYS I got a call that they will FINALLY pay me back all my money. Almost $8,000.00 worth. True I don't have the check in my hand, but after ALL I've been through with them, all FIVE times I sent them ALL the documentation about the account, after I finally STOPPED paying them because they told me it was an "inside job" and turned me over to a credit bureau, I never let up!!

Last Thursday "Ivy Daley" called and told me she was sending the requisition to pay the amount to me. I told her she had no more than TWO WEEKS and it's back to Billy Boy for me! I told her I had taxes to pay at the end of this month and NEEDED a time to expect the check because I would have to withdraw money from my IRA. She said I should give her a couple of days and suggested I not withdraw any funds just yet. I plan to give her a call tomorrow and "bug" her one more time!!

Nelson's office told me that BOA is almost the WORST company when it comes to dealing with this stuff! Remind them about the BAILOUT money, and the extra money BFEE paid after the approval! THEN remind them of their NFL Extravaganza that cost almost 1 million dollars, where the sole purpose was for them to find new accounts to sign up with them.

Bug them and hit them hard! It took me a long time, but I hung in there and I KNOW FOUR years is a long time... but it does look like I will finally get what is due me!! RIGHT NOW is a perfect time to call their bluff... they are soooooooooooo crooked!

I did settle for only the amount I paid, but did tell them I was the BIGGER person because in actuality I felt they owed me double for all the stress and sleepless night they caused me. Punitive damages if you will! Some here say pay.... I SAY NO!! I HATE THEM, and they will lie about so many issues and you need to be strong and call them on it!!!

PM me if you want personal numbers I have acquired through this process!

[aikoaiko]

136. Agree that probate court is the correct procedure for most such debts.

but it might be worth it for some people to negotiate a pay off instead of having assets liquified. Of course a lawyer should be consulted first.

[WinkyDink]

142. Glad my mom has never owned a credit card!

[midnight]

144. Two weeks ago, Bank of America threw a Super Bowl Party.

They would not tell ABC news how much they spent, on the several day carnival like party, but it was estimated to be 10,000,000. There were tickets sold to raise money for charity. Maybe you can ask if some of that charitable money they raised, via their estimated 10,000,000 dollar Super Bowl party, could possible be sent to help this family during this stressful family crisis?

[NikolaC]

150. Confirming For Me

one of the many reasons that I am glad that I closed my BoA bank account and credit card two years ago. They are criminal scum. I am so sorry that that gentleman had to go through what he did.

[goforit]

151. OMG!!! Tooo much!