Your Suspicions about Autism

[Mike 03]

Poll question: Your Suspicions about Autism

You don't have to be scientists to participate in this poll. I just am curious as to what people here think about this rather tempestuous issue.

I'm not here to judge anyone. I am just as curious as all of you are. It is a mystery we need to solve rapidly. I think it will turn out to be some combination of genetic predisposition and environment, but that is just a guess.

I realize there is overlap/redundancy in some of the questions. Just please select the choice that best matches your opinion.

Thanks for participating!

[uppityperson]

1. Other. I know someone with autism, am a med person, don't believe vaccines cause autism.

The studies I have read haven't convinced me that vaccines cause autism. I have a friend with an autistic child.

That said, I am glad anyhow that mercury has been removed from kid's vaccines.

[Mike 03]

6. Thank you for your reply. NT

[DBoon]

25. I agree about the vaccines

but suspect environmental toxins may have something to do with it.

[GoCubsGo]

62. Yup.

One probably gets more exposure to mercury from the fallout of coal combustion than from the minute amount that was in vaccines.

[Joe Chi Minh]

2. I don't know one way or the other, but I really wish the authorities

would keep an open mind on the vaccine's side-effects, and suspend its use until the truth is definitively known. I believe it's called the precautionary priniciple.

However, they and you seem more intent on discrediting the doctor's motivation. A pity.

Participating? Pleasure's mine.

[Maru Kitteh]

24. You would have millions of children die, or be deformed. How disgusting.

On measles deaths from 2000 to 2007:

Worldwide Measles Deaths Drop Dramatically
They plunged 74 percent from 2000 to 2007, report shows
Posted December 4, 2008

""The progress made today is a major contribution to achieving the United Nations Millennium Development target of reducing child mortality by two-thirds by 2015," Dr. Peter Strebel, of the World Health Organization's Department of Immunization, Vaccines, and Biologicals, said during a morning teleconference Thursday.

For the first time, measles vaccinations around the world reached 82 percent in 2007, up from 72 percent in 2000, Strebel said. "And we are reaching more children with measles vaccine through routine vaccination services," he added.

This success is a result of the Measles Initiative, the experts said. Started in 2001, the initiative is a collaborative effort by the World Health Organization, the CDC, the American Red Cross, the United Nations Foundation and UNICEF."

http://health.usnews.com/articles/health/healthday/2008/12/04/worldwide-measles-deaths-drop-dramatically.html


In this country alone in one year Rubella caused 20,000 birth defects such as cataracts, microphthalmia (a condition where the normal fluids of the eye are absent, causing the eyes to be very small and resulting in blindness), defects of the long bones, heart defects, microcephaly (small head size) and sensorineural deafness. Another 10,000 lost their babies before or upon delivery.

http://cerhr.niehs.nih.gov/common/rubella.html

Every year, 8 million children are born suffering defects due to a lack of access to the vaccine you say they should just stop giving.




Shame on you.

[uppityperson]

76. Thank you.

I very much appreciate your post.

[LeftishBrit]

57. There is definite evidence that maternal rubella can cause autism..

so suspending the vaccine actually will risk more cases of autism, as well as other disorders.

There is plenty of evidence already that the MMR does not cause autism but the anti-MMR campaigners and you seem more intent on discrediting the researchers' motivation. A pity.

[NYC_SKP]

3. Other: I believe modern environmental substances may be behind it.

Including substances first ingested by the mother.

Including, perhaps, but not limited to, vaccinations.

That's just an uniformed opinion.

[Joe Chi Minh]

5. At the moment, apparently, it's as good as anyone else's. At least two

leading medical experts, one a professor, are backing him.

[Myrina]

8. Agree with you.

... too many chemicals in our food, environment, water supply, etc ... I don't know that there's any way to isolate the one (or correct combination of) that has led to any of the diseases/developmental disorders that seem to have 'just popped up' over the last 30-50 years but ... the coincidence in timing is striking.


:shrug:

[Voice for Peace]

9. Other - agree with NYC SKP

Combination of many environmental dietary & pharmaceutical poisons.

[TZ]

83. "pharmaceutical poisons"

biased much? Yes. all of us cancer researchers are out to poison all you innocent people..:sarcasm:

[Voice for Peace]

102. I grew up downriver from a pharmaceutical factory & swam in their green sludge

throughout childhood. Throughout childhood and much of adult life I suffered from chronic fatigue and pain, depression, intestinal dysfunction, hormone disruption, and mild autism.

In my community there were many peculiar cancers in young people & animals, as well as a high incidence of severe depression & psychosis among my local peers.

So yes, I am biased. Not against the innocent goodhearted researchers -- the ones who genuinely care more about helping people than about profits or their own professional glory. Perhaps you are one of them.

[Xithras]

94. I'm fairly certain it's mercury.

Many studies have shown potential links between mercury exposure and autism among children of women exposed to that mercury.

There was a study last year that suggested that exposure to pesticides may be a leading factor. This study discovered that women living in the California San Joaquin Valley have a signifigantly higher risk of having an autistic child if they live next to a farm, and that the risk declines as they move away from those farms. The proposal was that the pesticides used on those farms may be driving up autism rates.

Personally, I think they were looking at the wrong things. All of the rivers feeding into the Sacramento and San Joaquin rivers suffer from severe mercury pollution caused by gold mining in the late 1800's. The mercury is still there, and it's still detectable. Those rivers are captured behind dams in the Sierra foothills, where much of the water is diverted into canals...that irrigate the farms alongside the homes with a higher risk of autism.

[ddeclue]

4. I'm fairly certain that this is a genetic issue.

I am also concerned that the autism diagnosis is probably being overused these days and was probably underused in the past to explain behavior.

This is like the issue of crime:

Is it actually worse today or is there just more news coverage of it?

Doug D.
Orlando, FL

[Joe Chi Minh]

7. It's an interesting question, as it as recently reported that excessive testosterone in

the womb could be at least a contributory factor. I can't remember how definitively it was stated.

If so, it runs counter to other reports that there is so much oestrogen in our water supply, from sanitary towels in the sewerage system and from various household products, that it's even leading to the malformation of male babies' genitalia. One such source was apparently, a kind of cling-film. Although it's now been taken off the market.

[Deja Q]

14. A quick diagnosis is often an incorrect one. Now add in how many doctors prescribe pills. A quota?

I was ultimately diagnosed with Asperger Syndrome in 2005. Thanks to a doctor who actually took something called "time". Having worked in the field for decades has helped too; she would be a mentor to those entering the field, and I worked with one of those diagnosis flingers too... (the thing being, many with Autism or Asperger's Syndrome are often misdiagnosed...)

And given that it's cheaper just to throw around diagnoses like what chimps are known for flinging...

Assuming the children in question really have anything and are either acting. The media and peer influence DOES have considerable impact on children and most children are reasonably bright. And most principals aren't reasonably concerned; things were bad enough 25 years ago. But the future leaders, aka the conniving little antisocial dweebs, would use anything to get out of class. Hijacking a legitimate disorder would be second nature to the little vermin.

Sorry for rambling.

[lumberjack_jeff]

85. There's no such thing as a genetic epidemic.

And rates are increasing far beyond that which can be attributed to "overuse" of the diagnosis.

Between 1990 and 2000 in california, the rate of autism occurrence increased 700%.

It's apparent that genetics play some role. It is equally apparent that environment does too.

[EmeraldCityGrl]

92. I believe it's genetic as well. Research revenue is easier to get...

when the general public presumes they are at greater risk on developing a disease or disorder rather than having it
filed under the catch all of "orphan disease."

[NC_Nurse]

10. I am a medical professional and have a brother and a son with Autism and

Asperger's respectively. I believe that the cause is a combination of genetic and environmental causes.
I am not convinced that vaccines are the cause, but I think that mercury should not be in anything that
is put into the body in any way - ingested, injected or otheriwise.

It would not surprise me if mercury was a factor, but vaccines are only one small part of that. Studies have shown
that MANY pregnant women have more mercury on their bloodstream than is considered safe - I'm remembering 1 in 12, but that
could be wrong since I read that a few years ago. On the one hand, fish in the diet is recommended for it's high nutritional value, but often there
are high levels of mercury in it, esp. oily fishes like tuna, salmon, etc.

I'm sure that there are many other impurities in our diets and environment that could contribute as well.

[sendero]

119. I pretty much agree....

... with you. I think external stressors combined with genetic predisposition are the most likely causes. The genetic tendencies were always there, the stressors are exploding.

As for mercury in vaccines, I don't really know. I laugh at anyone who says it's "impossible", because in the world of medicine the "impossible" has come true more times than I can count. It could be an immune-response related (from vaccine) issue, as many many many diseases of the human body are related to immune responses gone awry.

One thing for sure, it has to be SOMETHING that mankind has introduced. Enviromental chemicals, food additives, something. Hopefully we will find out soon.

[Spider Jerusalem]

11. I am autistic.

(I have Asperger Syndrome, which is an autistic spectrum disorder.)

And I think that anyone who thinks that vaccines cause autism is medically ignorant and misled by sensationalist fearmongering. I am not a medical professional, but I have examined a good deal of the publicly available evidence (including the results of over a dozen independent studies, now, finding no link whatever between vaccines and autism, and the evidence that the originator of the idea of a purported link falsified most of his research) to have reached the only conclusion a sane and rational person confronted with such evidence can reach. It is coincidental that the development of obvious autistic traits generally occurs at roughly the same age at which small children are vaccinated; however, correlation is not causation, however much parents wanting something to blame because their child isn't 'normal' or 'perfect' want it to be.

[Lilith Velkor]

73. So am I.

I am agnostic as to the cause of it, but lean toward it being genetic.

Naturally, most parents will not want to hear that.

[lumberjack_jeff]

89. Late-onset autism is an entirely new disorder

At one time, it was believed that symptoms were always apparent from birth.

It's become obvious that this is no longer the case. There are both more people with autism than there were 30 years ago AND the onset of their symptoms manifest later in childhood.

[Spider Jerusalem]

95. Actually, you are totally WRONG

symptoms were not 'always apparent from birth'. 'Early-onset' autism manifests by the age of fourteen months. And 'late-onset' autism is also called 'disintegrative disorder'; it's a very rare condition in comparison to autism.

[lumberjack_jeff]

99. Caps notwithstanding, I'm not wrong.

http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/42/15/28

Not all late onset autism is disintegrative disorder and about half of autism manifests after 14 months.

[Spider Jerusalem]

100. Yes, you are wrong.

'by a year or so of age', it says in the very article you linked to. That does not mean 'from birth'. And note also it says 'can be diagnosed as young as 14 months'...but not sooner.

[lumberjack_jeff]

106. Autism cannot be diagnosed prior to age 14 months...

... because the markers are not present, in a significant large percentage (25-50% - perhaps more) of patients who are diagnosed with an ASD.

This group includes my son.

[LeftishBrit]

103. No, it was never believed by most that symptoms are always present from birth

In fact, as the core symptoms of autism involve problems with communication, social interaction, and imagination/pretence, they cannot be diagnosed until a child reaches the age when some communication and social interaction skills would be expected. This means not till the second year of life. It might be obvious earlier that a child has *some* problems, but not that they are autistic.

In fact, the early, now totally discredited theories about autism assumed that it was due to parental mishandling - and thus not present from birth.

True late-onset autism (as opposed to autism being diagnosed late) is rare; but it has always existed. It isn't new.

[defendandprotect]

139. It seems that 1 in every 6 children is suffering some kind of developmental problem . . .

[backscatter712]

12. I believe that _SOMETIMES_ autism is catalyzed by vaccines.

The usual culprit in vaccines is alleged to be thimerosal, a mercury compound.

For most people, it's a miniscule amount - your doctor will tell you that you get about as much mercury from a flu shot as you get from a can of tuna.

I'll bet that there is a subset of people that have bad genes and maybe be more susceptible.

That said, there's far more mercury out there than thimerosal in vaccines.

Ever eat tuna fish or sushi?

Ever go to the dentist and get an amalgam filling?

That drinking water coming out of your faucet has trace amounts of mercury.

Same with the air you breathe - all those coal power plants sent mercury into the atmosphere from their smokestacks.

Then there are mercury thermometers, mercury thermostats, mercury in school science labs, mercury in fluorescent lights. There's mercury all over the place.

I also believe that mercury is probably one of many substances that screw with brain development and contribute to autism.

So who knows? I think thimerosal contributes, but is far from the sole cause of the autism epidemic.

[GoCubsGo]

66. Well said!

Not to mention that they no longer put thimerosal in vaccines, yet people still are becoming autistic.

I'm not convinced there is so much an "epidemic" as, for lack of a better word at the moment, a "bandwagon". "Autism" seems to have become a blanket term for a bunch of symptoms that may or may not be autism, as other posters in this thread have pointed out.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

128. Vaccines trigger a response in the system

its possible that when some children get too many of these triggers all at the same
time that it causes damage.

If vaccines trigger responses, then this may have unintended consequences in some children.

We know that some vaccines have yeast in them, so children allergic to yeast should
avoid those vaccines.

There are a range of components in the vaccines that some children may not be able to tolerate.

The why's and who's will be better known when research is committed to that study.

Vaccines used to be fewer and farther between.

In the UK, physicians often spread out the vaccines.

My daughter's baby sitter always told parents to give their children tylenol
BEFORE getting vaccinated.

The children often would be a bit ill after getting vaccinated, some
getting fevers.

"Granny" was an old fashioned person, but she had taken care of alot of babies
for many years.

[tomreedtoon]

13. Autism is a curse from God.

So many people believe that God only does good things, that I felt it was necessary to post a much more reasonable argument: God, or fate, or whatever, hates humanity and throws us curses. It isn't "the devil" who does such things, or random fate. The cruel nature of the universe and life itself must mean that God is at least partially cruel.

Don't believe me? Go read J. Michael Straczynski's novel "Midnight Nation." Basically it says that God is cruel; only Mankind has the capability of being kind.

[walldude]

53. Autism is a curse?

Shit and I thought Freepers had cornered the market on blatant stupidity and ignorance. My autistic son said to "tell that jerk that I'm not cursed, and if he'd like to run his IQ up against mine I'd be proud to make a fool out of him".

[tomreedtoon]

70. Tell him I'm hideous; that's MY curse.

Everyone thinks I'm terrific, charitable, helps people, and all that. Then they see me for real and they turn tail and run, screaming "DEE-MONNNNN!"

Everybody is incurably cursed in some way. That's the point. God hates us all, just in different ways.

[seabeyond]

15. other. i know my personal experience and i do not trust any of authority on this issue cause

of the agenda they work under. there are too many worthwhile agendas to arrive at a desired answer for whatever agenda and i do not believe anyone is moral enough to not let that interfer with results.

the worst thing bush did was instill the distrust with our science (no global warming), fda and other agencies for greed and profit.

[sniffa]

16. What about flu shots?

:wtf:

[Mike 03]

30. Sniffa, what about them?

One of these days, it would be nice to have an actual, meaningful conversation with you.

I'm not crazy about getting flu shots, but I get them because my dad is immunocompromised due to cancer and chemotherapy.

[LeftishBrit]

58. I don't know about the USA...

but in the UK, it is very unusual for infants to be given the flu jab. It is almost always given at an age considerably later than when autism normally manifests itself. Thus, whatever one may think of the flu jab, it isn't a likely cause of autism.

[stray cat]

17. I'm a scientist and have never seen credible evidence linking autism and vaccines

I have a friend whose son has autism - it was pretty much reversed by cutting out all glutan from his diet. I suspect autism has distinct causes in different people and at least in this case it appeared to be an inherent inability to nutritionally process a certain food product which as a result became toxic

[lumberjack_jeff]

90. There's no "credible evidence" linking gluten to autism symptoms either

It's all anecdotal... just like the vaccine link.

I fully agree that there is no "one thing", and I think that genes, gluten, environment and vaccines are all part of that puzzle.

[endless october]

18. interesting article on this :

http://scienceblogs.com/authority/2009/02/scientific_misconduct_and_the.php

some scientific misconduct in the original lancet study.

the times reported on it recently :

MMR doctor Andrew Wakefield fixed data on autism
Brian Deer

THE doctor who sparked the scare over the safety of the MMR vaccine for children changed and misreported results in his research, creating the appearance of a possible link with autism, a Sunday Times investigation has found.

Confidential medical documents and interviews with witnesses have established that Andrew Wakefield manipulated patients’ data, which triggered fears that the MMR triple vaccine to protect against measles, mumps and rubella was linked to the condition.

The research was published in February 1998 in an article in The Lancet medical journal. It claimed that the families of eight out of 12 children attending a routine clinic at the hospital had blamed MMR for their autism, and said that problems came on within days of the jab. The team also claimed to have discovered a new inflammatory bowel disease underlying the children’s conditions.

However, our investigation, confirmed by evidence presented to the General Medical Council (GMC), reveals that: In most of the 12 cases, the children’s ailments as described in The Lancet were different from their hospital and GP records. Although the research paper claimed that problems came on within days of the jab, in only one case did medical records suggest this was true, and in many of the cases medical concerns had been raised before the children were vaccinated. Hospital pathologists, looking for inflammatory bowel disease, reported in the majority of cases that the gut was normal. This was then reviewed and the Lancet paper showed them as abnormal.

Despite involving just a dozen children, the 1998 paper’s impact was extraordinary. After its publication, rates of inoculation fell from 92% to below 80%. Populations acquire “herd immunity” from measles when more than 95% of people have been vaccinated.

Last week official figures showed that 1,348 confirmed cases of measles in England and Wales were reported last year, compared with 56 in 1998. Two children have died of the disease.

With two professors, John Walker-Smith and Simon Murch, Wakefield is defending himself against allegations of serious professional misconduct brought by the GMC. The charges relate to ethical aspects of the project, not its findings. All three men deny any misconduct.

Through his lawyers, Wakefield this weekend denied the issues raised by our investigation, but declined to comment further.

[laconicsax]

33. Sadly, the anti-vax brigade doesn't care, they never did.

Vaccines don't do anything beneficial, they're just a ploy to inject children with as much mercury as possible. If you disagree any part of that, you're a shill for "big pharma."

[endless october]

86. i know, i've been in some arguments

with people on other sites. and then somebody comes on and tells me that because i don't have kids, i don't understand that vaccines are causing autism.

the science just doesn't support the claim at this point.

[FloridaJudy]

154. And consider that for every death from measles

Probably two or three have complications that can lead to life-long disability: blindness, deafness or severe neurological injury. It's not a benign disease by any means.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/measles/in-short-adult.htm

[RadicalTexan]

19. The autistic child I know was conceived when the mother was 41 and the father 50+

The father also exhibits symptoms of Asperger's.

His sister is "normal".

[Trekologer]

84. That is an interesting observation

What is the average age of the mothers of autistic children verses the entire population of children? Is it higher? If so, it could very well be that the mother's eggs became (for lack of a better word) stale.

[lumberjack_jeff]

91. FWIW: I was 36, wife was 33.

Our youngest was our third child with two brothers.

Genetics does play a role. Research has looked at this question. Unlike Down syndrome, the evidence connecting it to parental age is sketchy.

[earth mom]

20. Jeezus what a stupid ass poll! It is the Thimerosal that is believed to trigger Autism!

NOT the vaccinations themselves!

There is a Mercury based perservative called Thimerosal in the vaccinations and that's what people believe has triggered Autism!

So-Quit peddling the disinfo and get a fucking clue before posting bullshit polls like this! :grr:

[Occam Bandage]

22. "that is believed"

by cranks, morons, evidence-falsifiers, and whackadoos, that is.

[earth mom]

23. Talking about yourself again?

:eyes:

[varkam]

26. So riddle me this then -

if it has been removed from all mandatory childhood vaccines for nearly a decade now, why is the autism rate continuing to climb?

[laconicsax]

34. It's a faith-based condition.

[Posteritatis]

80. Xenu. Duh. (nt)

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

37. Then why have autism rates continued to rise after Thimerosal was removed from childhood vaccines?

Thimerosal was removed from all routine childhood vaccines in 2001. How is it that autism rates have continued to rise?

David

[defendandprotect]

45. Right . . . THIMEROSAL contains Mercury --- which doesn't help anyone . . .

especially a newborn!

Thimerosal is there simply as a perservative so the vaccines can be kept on the shelf

longer!!

There are other suspected problems surrounding the number of vaccines that are being

given to children at one time! This problem has to be explored.

[LeftishBrit]

60. Not in the case of Andrew Wakefield and the MMR.

There are two different vaccine debates. One is about mercury. The other is about whether the MMR itself causes autism. The MMR vaccine never contained mercury.

Actually both seem disproved, as withdrawal of mercury from childhood vaccines has not led to a reduction in autism, and withdrawal and then re-introduction of the MMR in Japan did not affect autism rates. However, on general principle, I think mercury should not be used as a preservative in vaccines: even if it doesn't cause autism, it's not likely to be specially good for one. (I worry more about its presence in the food chain.) The MMR is an entirely separate issue.

[Spider Jerusalem]

72. There has never been thimerosal in the MMR vaccine

and the MMR vaccine was WITHDRAWN in Japan (with the result that autism rates went UP). Autism rates have INCREASED despite thimerosal being removed from ALL childhood vaccines since 1999. Perhaps YOU should get a clue?

[dflprincess]

21. Maybe the problem isn't with the vaccines but with how many are given at a time.

The veterinarian my sister-in-law takes her dogs to spreads puppy shots out longer than is standard (and he only charges for the shots, not the extra office visits) because he says that there is some evidence that too many shots at one time is not good for the dog's immune system. The other vets he works with don't all buy into this - saying there isn't enough research on the matter and the vet who does it agrees with that, but he also thinks better safe than sorry. He is of the opinion there will never be any research into it because the same outfits making vaccines for dogs make them for humans and they'll never admit there a problem. He's not saying don't get the dog its shots, just don't give so many at once.


Given that dogs are often used as test subjects for human medicine, maybe looking at how puppies react to a lot of shots isn't the dumbest idea. When you think about it, how can it be all that good for an immature immune system to overloaded trying to create different antibodies? And how do we know how that might affect the whole person.

[scarletwoman]

32. I'm with the vet on this. I think it's utterly reckless to shoot tiny babies up with all that stuff,

all at once, when their immune systems aren't even fully developed yet. I didn't allow them to do it to my kids.

sw

[Common Sense Party]

43. We demanded the pediatrician give our youngest SEPARATE

shots for measles, mumps & rubella. And we delayed some of her immunizations til after age two.

Better safe than stupid.

[scarletwoman]

46. Same here. All vaccinations separate, and delayed until after age 2. (nt)

[Donald Ian Rankin]

64. Actually, what's reckless is not doing so.

There is overwhelming evidence that giving babies multiple vaccines at a time does not increase the risks involved.

Not doing so, however, means a) leaving them unvaccinated for longer and b) increasing the number of irresponsible parents who don't get their children all te vaccinations, which means more children catch the diseases being vaccinated against.

[GoCubsGo]

67. I find it amazing that vets are further ahead of the curve...

...on the vaccine issue than many MDs are. My vets spread the shots out, too. That includes adult animals. With the other vaccines, they rotate and skip years now. They no longer even give some of the vaccines to indoor and senior cats. With cats, there is the risk of injection site sarcomas, but I'm sure getting multiple vaccinations at one time causes other issues. I know one thing. My kitties no longer seem to feel bad the rest of the day after getting their shots.

[skids]

27. Other.

Some of the stories I've heard about the correlation between a kid getting a shot and developing sudden and extreme autism symptoms were too strong to ignore. However the epidemiology available, if it's to be trusted, doesn't support a correlation.

It wouldn't surprise me if there was a certain gene that makes a certain percentage of the population develop autism after certain types of shocks to the system.

In short, just because we have a study in hand that shows no correlation was found when looked for among the general population, first hand experiences and anecdotal evidence should not be entirely ignored. To the contrary we should do a better job at collecting and collating anecdotal accounts of medical incidents, because a retro-study of a large group of anecdotes could point out some very real effects experienced by sub-populations. One way to do that is get everyone covered and get the health care system up to snuff so people actually use the preventative care, and their anecdotes are listened to and recorded not just laughed off if they are even heard at all.

[Karenina]

55. My child developed symptoms after vaccination.

I interviewed parents and observed their children according to his guidelines. I was into following EVERY LEAD. He told me that his training wasn't heavy on the nutrition side; my kid had allergies that exacerbated his symptoms. I collected enough anecdotal data showing mine was not the only child with such presentations that it convinced him to routinely screen for allergies.

He also LISTENED to parents and altered vaccination schedules of children who had bad reactions. He didn't DISMISS us, HE LISTENED.

[TrogL]

78. WHAT PART OF "correlation is not causation" DO PEOPLE NOT UNDERSTAND?!?!?

"a retro-study of a large group of anecdotes". That's called skewing the evidence before you've started the study.

[skids]

101. Oh go back to school...

We aren't idiots here. A proper review of anecdotal evidence would only be used to find clues as to where to look with a proper follow-up clinical study, or what data to start collecting for a proper statistical treatment. More routine data collection by the health care establishment would help tie those anecdotes to co-variables and multiply the value of the data, not to mention be useful in its own right for proper statistical modeling.

No correlation does not imply causation, however it is a good indicator of where to look for either causation or cofactors. For example, take vitamin D. They looked at the breast cancer correlation to latitude, tried testing suppliments in older women and found that was a no go. There's something there but it's not adult D bioavailability.

Then they did the same for multiple sclerosis, also correlated negatively with sun exposure, and lo and behold we find that prenatal vitamin D helps correctly express genes that prevent MS. Science wins because someone didn't treat a correlation as meaningless noise.

Perhaps someone will put two and two together and look at breast cancer gene expression vs prenatal vitamin D exposure.

"Correlation is not causation" is an important thing to know. As a mantra, however, it's destructive.

[defendandprotect]

110. We're still in the same gene pool ---

It wouldn't surprise me if there was a certain gene that makes a certain percentage of the population develop autism after certain types of shocks to the system.

Therefore, this is something new --

It is to some degree the vaccines/contents and the ways that they are given could be considered new.

There were prior studies, as I recall it -- and I think that Bobby Kennedy, Jr. mentioned
it in some of his writings -- which did find the vaccines connected. Whether it is the
Thimerosal which includes Mercury .... is the question. This is an ingredient in the
vaccine simply to increase its shelf life.

And, I agree that parents' observations are invaluable in determining what is going wrong ---
that is the basis of all science: Observation.

Also agree with you on the need for national health care -- single payer.


PS: IMO, we're also becoming dangerously close to soon hearing that there's a gene for poverty ---

Also, please see my post #107 below.

[anonymous171]

28. Refrigerator Mothers cause Autism.

Any study that isn't corporate owned would show that.

[Common Sense Party]

44. You forgot your

:sarcasm: thingy

[scarletwoman]

29. Other. It just seems like common sense that there's an evironmental component, we live in a world

awash in chemicals; in our food, in our air and water, in our clothing, furniture, home construction materials, plastic packaging, pharmacueticals, etc. I can't imagine why some of this stuff wouldn't have a possible effect in brain development in utero, depending on the mother's exposure.

Maybe there's a particular combination of certain substances in certain concentrations that reaches critical mass for some fetuses. Maybe it's the timing of the exposure -- harm at 12 weeks, but no harm at 20 weeks.

I admit to also being somewhat leery of vaccinations, because it seems to me that it's a huge "Shock and Awe" to a 2-month old's undeveloped immune system to introduce so many different vaccines all at once at such a young age. Over the years they keep adding more. It bothers me.

Both my children got vaccinated, but I didn't allow it until they were older, and I insisted on having the different kinds spaced out instead of given all at once.

I refuse to have unquestioning trust in the medical profession. I don't necessarily believe that vaccines and autism are related, but neither do I believe that the practice of vaccinating infants is wholly safe.

sw

[mzmolly]

36. A most

reasonable perspective SW. :hi:

[AngryAmish]

42. A shock and awe to a babies immune system is being alive

Culture your dish rag/sponge. A toothbrush. A babies' favorite toy.

Everyone one of these things have hundreds to thousands of different microbes each containing thousands of proteins. A babies' immune system deal with each of these things. They are identified by the immune system and dealt with (requireing immune response or not).

Anyway, 3 or 4 more proteins requiring an immune response does not require very much effort from even a babies immune system.

The immune system is a terribly complex thing. It is very difficult to understand.

[Tumbulu]

129. If it is so difficult to understand why do you presume that the babies' immune system

can take a whole bunch of pathogens injected INTO THE BLOODSTREAM vs on the surface of the body where normally the body responds to pathogens.

Let's see the science where this was actually studied and evaluated. I looked and could find nothing but disagreement among immunologists.

[trotsky]

156. Another sad misunderstanding.

Vaccines aren't injected into the bloodstream.

They are injected into muscle tissue - i.e., intramuscularly - which is most definitely not the same as direct injection into the bloodstream.

This is why many people who buy into the anti-vaccine hysteria have a tough time getting taken seriously. They do not understand even the basic concepts of vaccination.

BTW - one very common way the immune system is exposed to pathogens is when a skin breach (cut, abrasion) occurs. The body has no way to react to pathogens on "the surface" because the outermost layer of our skin is dead.

[Tumbulu]

160. The bloodstream is the first point of exposure to the pathogens thus bypassing

the normal first route of exposure to pathogens (the nasal cavities, the lungs, the mouth, etc). The normal way the body responds to pathogens is that it encounters them on the surface of the body. This is quite different than the way it responds to infectious agents and pathogens when encountered beyond the primary barriers that the body normally has.

And thus cuts and abrasions are serious threats in many ways when pathogens are present.

I lost a sheep to tetanus. They breath the tetanus bacterium's spores every dusty day- they last in the soil for at least 100 years- but any cut that gets wet with mud is a potential death threat if I am not up to date with vaccinations and boosters. I tend to vaccinate the young males when I castrate them, but sometimes the booster gets postponed due to stormy weather or me being sick or not having anyone to help me catch them and then, if they are exposed to tetanus there is no saving them. It is critical to boost them 3 weeks after the first shot or they really have no chance. The tetanus toxoid could care less about my excuses (however reasonable they are to me).

Getting the pathogens or infectious agents into the bloodstream bypassing the dermal and mucus membranes is an important reason that vaccines work and are able to protect us and our beloved animals from some very nasty deaths. They do work, but it is not something to take lightly this work that the mammalian body must do to produce multiple antigens and build the titre up to a useful level, a level that will protect one from the disease or the toxin for an extended period of time.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

65. Damn those chemicals!

Back in the good old days, when there was nothing but plasma around, there were none of these chemicals and no autism...

Also, your last paragraph is a very common fallacy. The question is not

"Is vaccinating infants wholly safe?"

(the answer to that one is "so close to being wholly safe as to make no odds, and delivering the vaccines together is no more risky than giving them separately) but

"Is vaccinating infants safer than not vaccinating them?"

or

"Is giving infants multiple vaccines together safer than spreading the vaccines out?"

The answer to both those questions are both very clearly "yes" - the risks of not vaccinating or of waiting to vaccinate are statistically significant; those of doing so are not.

[LeftishBrit]

104. I think prenatal environment is a far more likely factor than vaccines

It's already known that prematurity, illness at birth and certain maternal infections increase the risk of autism. I think more research needs to be done on prenatal exposure to infections and pollutants and on nutritional factors in pregnancy (it has already been found that taking folic acid in pregnancy reduces the risk of spina bifida and that vitamin D in pregnancy may reduce the risk of multiple sclerosis, so something similar may be found for autism). I think there's more point in increasing the research there than continuing to bark up the vaccine tree.

[proud2BlibKansan]

31. Other. I am a special ed teacher. I have studied it and I don't believe it is caused by vaccines.

Oh and I do know lots of kids with autism.

[mzmolly]

35. "Other" ~ I believe that vaccines are one potential environmental trigger in

previously vulnerable children. I also believe that we need to find a way to identify who may be vulnerable along with possible contributing factors. If we do so, perhaps we can improve vaccination and promote greater confidence in the process? For example, if we worked to develop synthetic vaccines, we may not have the need for some of the arguably questionable substances used in their manufacture at present?

Lastly, I believe that we should allow for open, respectful debate on the subject.

Edited due to poor grammar.

[Oak2004]

38. While I don't think vaccines cause autism,

if they did, we'd need to invent more of them. A great many of the worlds' great minds appear to have been autistic.

But then we'd also have to cure the really debilitating thing about autism: bigotry and discrimination.

[lumberjack_jeff]

93. There are many people who are profoundly negatively affected by ASD's. n/t

[defendandprotect]

108. No . . . autism is something new ---

and the brain is probably the most sensistive organ in the body ---

We don't know how much intelligence we have lost because of our culture and lack

of breast feeding any more than we know how much intelligence we have lost due to

pollution and toxic substances -- from pesticides in our foods to hormones and

chemicals in our drinking water, transmitted thru the bodies of patients taking

medications!

Please also see my msg #107 below . . .

[eilen]

39. A combination of malnutrition/malabsorption and genetics

or should I say, evolution and environmental impact.

[704wipes]

40. other - CLEANERS, or a combinaton of chemicals...

I really think there is something to some of the carpet cleaners, then the kid is crawling around on a REALLY clean carpet, which OCD mom & dad think is great, but they just exposed to him to a buttload of chemicals. I have seen several 'fastidous' families suddenly have a child who was fine -then suddenly all zoned out. I work with adult autistics too, and so I hope some of the recent advances, meds, strategies get us to a point where it can be minimized or even overcome by adulthood.

I also think it could be cleaners, food additives, and vaccines in some kind of combination that puts the whammy on these kids suddenly.

[defendandprotect]

111. However . . . the cases of autism are spiking alongside the increased use of the vaccines.

[Common Sense Party]

41. My son is severely autistic. We wondered about Thimerosol for a

while, but we're willing to concede that it was not a likely "cause."

The facts are: no one knows the cause of autism, the rise in autism diagnosis is nothing short of an alarming epidemic, and government doesn't seem to be doing much to find a cure.

Oh, and many people are assholes for the way they look at my son, and the way they disparage those of us who are dealing with the condition, but that's another topic.

[hunter]

47. It runs in my family.

I look at my family tree going way, way, back, even before most people got vaccines for such things as smallpox, and I think, Holy Mother of God! How did those two people manage to procreate? The majority of my ancestors were dysfunctional in normal society. Thank God for the engineering profession and religious fanaticism, otherwise they'd have starved to death long before they lost their virginity.

[MilesColtrane]

48. I think early and frequent exposure to TV causes autism.

Kill the teletubbies before they cripple your child.

[walldude]

49. I have a son with autism. He is fully functioning and actually

smarter, kinder, and funnier than anyone I have ever met. If you ask him, he doesn't have a disease, he's just way more evolved than everyone else and he would like it if all you people would stop trying to "cure" him and try "catching up to him".

[defendandprotect]

50. We continue to have sharply increasing new cases of autism . . .

and that's where our concern has to be to STOP this disease from striking any more children.

It's a frightening situation for new parents and for families trying to cope with this disease.

Unfortunately, the rise in autism coincides with the rise in the use of vaccines --- wherever

they are introduced!

No one is talking about stopping the vaccinations. However, the perservative still being used

is Thimerosal which does contain Mercury.

Further, infants are being given numerous vaccines at one time. It is being suggested that

there be longer spacing between these injections.

Again, our concerns have to be to STOP new cases and to help families.


MEANWHILE, we also have to face up to the fact that our system of medicine is as polluted

by money as our political system. This doesn't make for good medicine. Our government has

been corrupted in every way possible, including every government agency. The state of our

nation right now gives clear evidence that the aim of corporations is only to make more

money with little or no regard for people. This is undeniable -- yet in the case of medicine

we refuse to surrender our belief in a caring and ethical system.

[GinaMaria]

51. I think it is something else

something we have changed or added. For example folic acid during pregnancy. The amount prescribed is relatively new in OB care (not saying this is the cause,just that it may be something simple that we have changed or added).

[defendandprotect]

113. The lack of folate -- folice acid in the diets of females -- has been strongly connected

to various illnesses --- "Spina Bifida," for instance and, basically all neural cord disorders --

and to a lesser degree "Down's Syndrome." Folate is available from all fruits and vegetables.

When this information became know quite some time ago, the FDA/government did nothing for more

than two years to inform females and families of these problems.

There was actually a lawsuit brought out of conscience by the Physicans for Reponsible Medicine.

Finally, the government decided to put folic acid into flour . . . which seems to create a

differenet set of problems for the elderly.

So -- whenever you're talking with females, be sure to pass on this information --

EAT FRESH, RAW FRUITS AND VEGETABLES.

Again, it is a lack of natural folate in the diets of females which has been connected to

these diseases.

[FarCenter]

52. It is largely genetic

If one identical twin has autism, there is a roughly 85% chance the other twin has it as well.

For fraternal twins the odds are about 10 to 15%.

So it is not 100% genetic -- there must be environmental or behavioral causes.

And it is likely to be a function of multiple gene variations.

[xchrom]

54. what ever causes it --i hope they get to the bottom of it soon. problem #2 arrises --

how do you get people to drop their superstitions around their personal paranoia to to accept reality?

[defendandprotect]

107. Were the original studies influenced by "paranoia" ....?

Because it's my understanding that the original studies pointed to problems

with the vaccines . . .

[LeftishBrit]

56. I know more than one person with autism; am not a med person but have studied the subject as a

developmental psychologist; do not believe vaccines cause autism.

[Marrah_G]

59. Other- I really just don't know

I know 3 autistic children.

1 is half of a set of identical twin boys that was part of a set of quadruplets. He is a savant but has almost no communication with people.

The other 2 are a set of identical twin girls. One high function, one medium function. They both attend school in special programs and are finally talking (although the medium one has her own special sort of language).

What does it all mean? I don't know.

Maybe someday we WILL know. But right now we just don't.

[yellowwood]

61. Labeling an Issue

I don't know enough to say definitively whether or not vaccines are conducive to autism. I would never take a chance on NOT having a child vaccinized.
One thing that I do know about is that some of the increases in cases of autism that we see are the result of "re-labeling." I think that "autism" sounds like a less offensive label than some other labels that were used for children who were "different." For instance, I once knew of a child who was labeled "autistic" who had had a "brain bleed" as an infant.
Some "savants" were once just thought of as "too smart." "Odd acting." Etc. All just changes in labeling.
The jury is still out.

[readmoreoften]

63. I know a bunch of people who are autistic and I have no clue why they're autistic.

Other.

[surrealAmerican]

68. I doubt that there is a single cause for autism.

It's a collection of symptoms that may have numerous causes. For some there may be a genetic component, but I would guess that prenatal environmental factors are a major cause. As to vaccines, I doubt they cause many cases of autism (the research tends to find no connection), but it could be a factor in genetically vulnerable individuals.
The benefits of most vaccines still do outweigh the risks, but parents should be aware of both the risks of vaccinating and the risks of not vaccinating.

[BlueIris]

69. I think we need to look harder at whether plastics or other petroleum products are the real culprit.

As for vaccines, sure, I have concerns, but voted other because I haven't yet read enough to draw a conclusion about whether they are or are not contributors.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

71. All The Competent Medical Evidence I've Come Across Shows No Link Whatsoever.

I'll default to that, since I generally will trust medical experts over those who will do whatever they can to preach the results they want to see. Some so badly want there to be a connection, but based on everything I've researched it appears to be highly unlikely.

[semillama]

74. I believe that responding to internet polls causes autism.

Oh, wait. Crap.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

75. Vaccines don't cause autism.

This is like having a poll about global warming, evolution, or the shape of the earth.

[Posteritatis]

81. Given the anti-science bent here, the results of those would be depressing too (nt)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

88. Actually, it looks like only 10% are responding that vaccines cause it.

Given that 20+% of Americans think that Bush did a good job, that's not too bad.

[varkam]

123. That's kind of depressing, too, seeing as how those 20% aren't on DU.

That's at least 30% of the American public that are...how shall we say...have a unique perspective on things.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

143. Oh, don't believe it.

In any given poll, there'll always be about 10% giving the incorrect answer.

[sweetpotato]

77. Other. I know someone with autism and I believe its environmental

Too many chemicals in the air, water, food.

[old mark]

79. I worked witn people with developmental problems for several years

and I don't believe vaccines cause any of it. I think it is a combination of the many chemicals we are surrounded by in our daily lives and genetic predisposition, and I believe the same causes hold for many mental illnesses.

mark

[Bucky]

82. It's not the vaccines, it's stethoscopes! Doctors MUST quit stethoscoping helplesss infants!

Where's the outrage?s

[lumberjack_jeff]

87. This poll could have been better constructed.

I believe that vaccines have not been conclusively ruled out as one of the environmental insults which act upon genetically vulnerable individuals.

Therefore, I "doubt that vaccines cause autism". The converse is I also have doubt that vaccines are inherently safe. There is no good option for me.

This groups me in your poll with the "shut up you crazy pro-infectious-disease parents! We shouldn't spend another penny investigating the safety of vaccines! In fact, the money you already spent for that purpose? We're going to redirect it to researchers trying to prove that there is no epidemic and that it's all our imagination!"

... people with whom I strongly disagree, and who number in the dozens here.

I have greater affinity to those who believe that vaccines cause autism (even though I don't entirely agree with them) with than the latter.

[garybeck]

96. I still don't want mercury injected into my children's bloodstream.

and yes i have studied this and yes I know there are two forms of mercury. I still don't want it in my blood and I don't want it in my kids blood either.

[defendandprotect]

117. Many parents, as far as I can see, are reflecting your feelings ---

and doctors seem to be responding at least by spacing out the vaccines ---

[Canuckistanian]

97. I have an autistic son and I've been hearing this crap for 10 years

How many studies will it take before people stop believing in this thimerosal BS?

I gave up on that theory myself almost 10 years ago.

[defendandprotect]

116. Many more . . . because MERCURY whether in Thimerosal or in fish . . .

whether in corn syrup which is put into many food products -- or mercury in fillings

will all always be questioned and rightly so!

[KamaAina]

98. I AM someone with autism

so no one here really should have voted "I don't know anyone but..." :-)

In case you're wondering, I'm on the fence. Vaccines aren't (can't be) the sole cause, and thimerosal may not be (probably isn't) the vehicle. I'd look at vaccine schedules (too many too soon?) and multiple vaccines (speculation focuses on MMR) instead. I'd also look at LOTS of other stuff like mercury pollution from coal, mercury in high-fructose corn syrup (and thus in most foodstuffs), and so on.

[defendandprotect]

115. "mercury in high-fructose corn syrup (and thus in most foodstuffs)"...

Lots of people don't know about this ---

and the corn syrup folks have been running some very high propaganda ads on TV

which even I have noticed!

Since Thimerosal has mercury in it, I think it has to be considered.

And, didn't prior studies show the vaccines to be a problem?

[varkam]

122. Except that the mercury in HFCS was at pretty low levels.

And, not sure if you're aware of this, but mercury has been out of all mandatory childhood vaccines for almost a decade now.

Not that facts matter to you, but...

[defendandprotect]

125. Not sure that mercury has been removed from vaccines . . . trace amounts seem to be left . . . ???

http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/AAFP-AAP-ACIP-thimerosal.htm

The problem isn't only the amount of mercury found in ONE vaccine or one

product with corn syrup in it --- the problem could be batteries of vaccines ---

each containing mercury -- given to a newborn at one time.

Additionally, consider how much fruit juice children drink and no matter how

"low" the levels it certainly isn't beneficial to their health any more than

mercury from any other source would be!

[varkam]

133. We're talking parts per trillion IIRC

I think you get more mercury from nursing

[defendandprotect]

149. Rather they are indicating mercury was "REDUCED" . . . .

and not eliminated ---

and I've seen no factual info on what is meant by "trace" amounts ---

If it is the drug companies or corrupted government agency reporting this it is

open to question.

Additionally, familes seemingly have had tests done on children which show evidence

of mercury in their systems.

The number of vaccines now given to children before the age of 2 also jumped from

10 to 36 at one point!

[varkam]

159. Nothing you say to me has much credibility at this point.

I've pointed out to you that you've been pushing the Wakefield study and that MMR never had mercury in it, but words don't seem to have much of an effect on you.

[dropkickpa]

105. My cousin is mildly autistic

My Aunt had one child by her first husband, Girl cousin #1 and her 2 boy children, who all show no signs of autism.

My aunt remarried and had Girl cousin #2 (not autistic) 2 years later and Boy cousin 2 years after that.

Boy cousin has been diagnosed with Aspergers.

Girl cousin #2's 2 boy children are both autistic to varying degree's. All of them (girl cousins and boy cousin) were raised in the same house, same environment, live in the same town now, etc etc, they just have a different father, who, looking back, seems to have been a lot like my boy cousin is, and very likely had Aspergers also.

[BlooInBloo]

109. I'll go with what the best science has to say.

[defendandprotect]

114. As you're probably aware from other issues, the "best science" has been BUSHED . . .

and before that overturned by corporate money buying government and elected officials!

[varkam]

121. It's not like there aren't other scientists in other parts of the world that haven't researched...

this...

OR HAVE THEY BEEN GOTTEN TO AS WELL?!?!?!!!?!!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!

:rofl:

[defendandprotect]

126. The earliest studies show links between autism and vaccines with mercury

in them.

Also note that where the WTO has distributed American vaccines in other countries
their rates of autism have risen.

Also note . .

Further research shows that that the Measles virus, vaccine strain, is growing in the intestines of autistic children, that it entered the spinal fluid, and is causing a low grade encephalitis. Encephalitis is known to possibly cause autism.

Some researchers have contemplated that the use of Thimerosal, which can cause destruction of the immune system, caused these children to be unable to fight the 3 live virus' given in that vaccine.
http://www.autismfacts.com/services.php?page_id=124
------------------------------------------------------------



Thimerosal was first introduced in vaccines in 1931 by Eli Lilly Corporation. It was used as a preservative so that multidose vials of vaccines could be used instead of single dose vials, which are more expensive.

Leo Kanner first described Autism in the 1930's, as did a french doctor named Hans Asperger. Kanner's paper on Autism was published in the 1940's. The oldest child listed in his paper was born in 1931.

Both described what they said was a newly discovered neurological disorder in children that had not been seen before. Both had similar, but slightly different descriptions. What Kanner described was what is known as a more typical course of severe autism. Hans Asperger described children who were of average to high intelligence but with similar behaviors and characteristics. His description is what is now known as a higher functioning form of autism called Asperger's Disorder.

With each increase in Thimerosal-containing vaccines, autism rates went up. This became much more obvious beginning with children born in 1988 when the Hib vaccine was added to the childhood schedule in 2 doses. The DTP vaccine, which also contained Thimerosal, was also on the childhood schedule and had been for many years. Each Hib vaccine contained 25 mcgs. of mercury. The DTP also contained 25 mcgs. per shot.

The EPA standards for mercury exposure safety levels is .1 mcg. per kilogram, or 2.2 pounds. This means that the average newborn that weighs about 7 pounds cannot take in more than .3 mcgs. of mercury.

The first Hep B vaccine given at birth is 12.5 mcg. which, according to EPA safety levels, you would have to weigh 275 pounds to safely absorb.

Children received 12.5 mcg. at birth, another 12.5 at one month, 50 mcg. at 2 months, 50 mcg. at 4 months and 62.5 mcg. at 6 months for a total of 187.5 mcg. by the age of 6 months. All of this was being given at a time when the blood-brain barrier was absent and their neurological systems and immune systems were still underdeveloped.

Autism rates jumped to the eventual number of today's rate of 1 in every 150 children born in the United States.

--------------------------------

A link to discussion of the removal of Thimerosal --

http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/AAFP-AAP-ACIP-thimerosal.htm

Additionally, somewhere in my reading tonight, I noted that 1 in 6 children are showing

some signs of developmental problems.

[varkam]

134. The earliest studies were also make-believe.

Guess you missed the article in the Times over the weekend that talked about how Wakefield faked his data (which is the study that Autism "Facts" was referring to. In addition, the MMR vaccine never contained mercury.

You might want to find a new source to get your "facts" from.

[defendandprotect]

136. Here's John Hopkins on goal of removing Thimerosal from vaccines . . .

INTRODUCTION
This statement has been prepared by the American Academy of Family Physicians, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices, and the U.S. Public Health Service in response to 1) the progress being made in achieving the national goal declared in July 1999 to remove thimerosal from vaccines, and 2) the results of studies to better assess any potential relationship between exposure to mercury in thimerosal containing vaccines and health effects.


SUMMARY
In 1999, family physicians, pediatricians, federal health officials, and vaccine manufacturers stated that because any potential risk from mercury is of concern, and the elimination of exposure to mercury in the form of thimerosal from vaccines is feasible, thimerosal should be removed from vaccines as soon as possible. However, there remains no convincing evidence of harm caused by low levels of thimerosal in vaccines. Since mid-1999, two new hepatitis B vaccine products have been introduced and one new Hib product will be produced next month to make the new supply of both hepatitis b and Hib vaccines for infants entirely free of thimerosal as a preservative. One of the four licensed DTaP vaccines is already thimerosal free, and at least one other thimerosal free DTaP vaccine is anticipated to be licensed by early 2001. Thus, the likely maximum number of micrograms of ethylmercury that an infant may be exposed to from the routine immunization schedule will have been reduced by 60%. This amount will be reduced even further in early 2001 when at least two vaccine products for hepatitis B, Hib, and DTaP are expected to be available. Meanwhile, research on the potential health effects of exposure to thimerosal is continuing, and information will be monitored closely by the PHS to determine if any changes in policy are needed.

The AAFP, AAP, ACIP, and the PHS recommend continuation of the current policy of moving rapidly to vaccines which are free of thimerosal as a preservative. Until an adequate supply of each vaccine is available, use of vaccines which contain thimerosal as a preservative is acceptable.

http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/AAFP-AAP-ACIP-thimerosal.htm

[varkam]

146. Read your own quote, please.

"However, there remains no convincing evidence of harm caused by low levels of thimerosal in vaccines. Since mid-1999, two new hepatitis B vaccine products have been introduced and one new Hib product will be produced next month to make the new supply of both hepatitis b and Hib vaccines for infants entirely free of thimerosal as a preservative. One of the four licensed DTaP vaccines is already thimerosal free, and at least one other thimerosal free DTaP vaccine is anticipated to be licensed by early 2001. Thus, the likely maximum number of micrograms of ethylmercury that an infant may be exposed to from the routine immunization schedule will have been reduced by 60%. This amount will be reduced even further in early 2001 when at least two vaccine products for hepatitis B, Hib, and DTaP are expected to be available. Meanwhile, research on the potential health effects of exposure to thimerosal is continuing, and information will be monitored closely by the PHS to determine if any changes in policy are needed. "

[SidneyCarton]

157. The earliest studies of astronomy concluded decisively that the sun circles the earth.

That which comes first is not always the most accurate.

[varkam]

112. Wow! Sure seems like there are more shills and republicans on DU than...

there are noble pursuers of Truth and Justice!

:rofl:

[defendandprotect]

118. I thought this information from "Autism facts.com" makes dangers of Mercury clear . . .

http://www.autismfacts.com/services.php?page_id=124

[varkam]

120. Hasn't thimerosal been out of vaccines for the better part of a decade now?

And that autism rate just seems to keep on climbing...

[defendandprotect]

124. Seemingly, there may still be "trace amounts" in vaccines . .. .

and, again, the problem also seems to center on the number of vaccines given at one time ---

upping the quantity of Thimerosal/mercury entering the system of the newborn --- or older child --
at least some children have had blood tests showing very high levels of mercury.

The comments below are from three different websites . . .
and the following link covers the 1999 recommendation that Thimerosal be removed from
vaccines. I've read it quickly and am still not totally clear on the results.

http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/AAFP-AAP-ACIP-thimerosal.htm
--------

"Thimerosal is an industrialized type of mercury in the form of ethylmercury, which is different than methylmercury. It converts to its organic form once it enters the body and is irreversibly converted back to its inorganic form once it settles in the brain and nerve cells. The mercury becomes bound and remains there for years. Mercury is also more toxic when injected than when ingested."

---

Now there are around 5,000 families wanting compensation from the federal government because they feel that developmental disorders such as autism are due to vaccines. This rise in cases has come about since the Joling case was announced. However, these cases have to have some kind of proof that vaccines were responsible since millions upon millions of people have received vaccines throughout the years and not had any developmental issues.

Nevertheless, with the rise in autism, the number of Supplemental Social Security Income checks going out each month for children with autism has tripled in the past 20 years. In 1960, only 1.8% of children had some sort of health condition that endured for more than three months. This is compared to a rate of 7% in 2004.

As we might recall from "Gulf War Syndrome" the government is reluctant to make itself accountable
-- and any number of grown male soldiers also had problems with vaccines which I'm sure we all
recall.

Bobby Kennedy, Jr. wrote something for "Rolling Stone" on this issue, I think ---
maybe a year ago? If I recall correctly the article was posted at DU.
If you know how to check the archives maybe you could find it?

Meanwhile, the WHO distributed our vaccines in other countries and the rates of autism
rose accordingly.

[varkam]

135. Again, we're talking parts per trillion.

And, if mercury really did cause autism then you would expect to see a decline in the slope after it was removed from vaccines in 2001 because there would be a dose-response relationship. That didn't happen.

[defendandprotect]

137. Again, the number of vaccinations given at one time ....

seems to be a continuing problem for newborns -- children under 7.

As far as I'm aware, the idea of delaying the vaccines and separating them -- which is

more costly -- has only fairly recently been done.

Also note . .

Further research shows that that the Measles virus, vaccine strain, is growing in the intestines of autistic children, that it entered the spinal fluid, and is causing a low grade encephalitis. Encephalitis is known to possibly cause autism.

Some researchers have contemplated that the use of Thimerosal, which can cause destruction of the immune system, caused these children to be unable to fight the 3 live virus' given in that vaccine.
http://www.autismfacts.com/services.php?page_id=124



With each increase in Thimerosal-containing vaccines, autism rates went up. This became much more obvious beginning with children born in 1988 when the Hib vaccine was added to the childhood schedule in 2 doses. The DTP vaccine, which also contained Thimerosal, was also on the childhood schedule and had been for many years. Each Hib vaccine contained 25 mcgs. of mercury. The DTP also contained 25 mcgs. per shot.

The EPA standards for mercury exposure safety levels is .1 mcg. per kilogram, or 2.2 pounds. This means that the average newborn that weighs about 7 pounds cannot take in more than .3 mcgs. of mercury.

The first Hep B vaccine given at birth is 12.5 mcg. which, according to EPA safety levels, you would have to weigh 275 pounds to safely absorb.

Children received 12.5 mcg. at birth, another 12.5 at one month, 50 mcg. at 2 months, 50 mcg. at 4 months and 62.5 mcg. at 6 months for a total of 187.5 mcg. by the age of 6 months. All of this was being given at a time when the blood-brain barrier was absent and their neurological systems and immune systems were still underdeveloped.

Autism rates jumped to the eventual number of today's rate of 1 in every 150 children born in the United States.

[varkam]

147. Are you still relying on a site that's pushing the findings of a known fraud?

I thought so.

[defendandprotect]

151. What I'm relying on . . .

is intelligent discussion by posters ---

which puts you on "ignore."

[varkam]

153. Sorry you can't handle the facts.

Not much I can do if you want to ignore reality.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

127. autism was around before vaccines?

[Skittles]

130. severely autistic brother

I always wondered if it was caused by severe emotional trauma suffered by mum during pregnancy

[Lilith Velkor]

131. I used to wonder that about myself

My mom was pregnant with me when half the city burned down after MLK got killed.

But now I'm pretty sure it isn't, because it runs in the family on both sides.

[Skittles]

132. yes

my mother's uncle (never diagnosed way back then) appeared to have been autistic

[4lbs]

138. Didn't Keith Olbermann talk about this a few days ago? He said it was revealed that the scientist

that first tried to make a link between autism and vaccines was found to have falsified his research data.

Combine that with the comprehensive Italian study released a few weeks ago that showed no link between Thimerosol and autism, and it's looking doubtful if there ever was a link.

[defendandprotect]

141. I'm looking for the NY Times' report today and Olberman's report . . .

but in the meanwhile, I came upon this from the NYT about a year ago --

letters which they published and quite interesting . . .

Excerpts: --

The C.D.C., the F.D.A. and other organizations and agencies have a vested interest in denying problems with vaccines. At the same time as thimerosal has (we hope) been reduced in vaccines, the number of vaccines continues to increase, from 10 in 1983 to 36 in 2008 on the C.D.C.’s schedule. The cumulative effect of so many vaccines has not been studied.

Do we really know what we are doing to the developing immune systems of babies when we give them 36 vaccines, 29 of them by the age of 2?
The door on this controversy is not closing! It is opening wider and wider.

and --

You state, “Thimerosal, the preservative in question, was removed from children’s vaccines in 2001.” But some vaccines still contain trace amounts of Thimerosal. While some may regard this as insignificant, I would note that there may be no threshold level of exposure to mercury that is absolutely safe.

But thimerosal was not “removed from children’s vaccines in 2001.” While levels of mercury were reduced, they were not eliminated from most such vaccines produced after 2001. And those containing the full dose of mercury were never recalled and remained in use, perhaps through 2004 or even later.

Mercury remains in full force in flu vaccines given to infants and pregnant women, so fetuses and infants continue to be exposed to mercury in these shots, in addition to the mercury they breathe and eat.

"Trace" amounts and the contrary point that the mercury was merely "reduced" . . . .
still to be explained.







http://www.ageofautism.com/2008/03/new-york-times.html

[pnutbutr]

140. heavy metals in the brain.....genetic???

I did some looking into this recently and despite the elimination of thimerosal in vaccines autism rates have continued to rise. I believe the rise in autism rates is due to the increased awareness of autism in society. What used to be determined a mental disorder is now determined to be autism based on recent information about it. This makes it very hard to determine if the vaccines actually play a part.

Autistic people tend to have higher levels of mercury and other heavy metals in the brain than non autistic people which could be a genetic problem with the body's ability to eliminate it from the brain. Vaccines and thimerosal may not be a cause but cannot be ruled out as something that may make an existing problem worse.

[defendandprotect]

144. "Autistic people tend to have higher levels of mercury and other heavy metals in the brain "...

It also seems that Thimerosal may not have been eliminated in vaccines, but "reduced."

The brain is probably the most sensitive organ in the body --

and as our rates of new diseases and old diseases continue to pile up the immune

system certainly has to be considered.

Also note . .

Further research shows that that the Measles virus, vaccine strain, is growing in the intestines of autistic children, that it entered the spinal fluid, and is causing a low grade encephalitis. Encephalitis is known to possibly cause autism.

Some researchers have contemplated that the use of Thimerosal, which can cause destruction of the immune system, caused these children to be unable to fight the 3 live virus' given in that vaccine.
http://www.autismfacts.com/services.php?page_id=124

[Evoman]

142. I think autism is caused by Autism Juice, i.e. big mac sauce.

The mom eats a Big Mac, the autism juice goes into the womb, where the baby gets some of it. The interesting thing about Autism Juice is that it doesn't become active until it comes into contact with pureed squash. Once baby eats his bottle of heinz, he's fucked.

Moms, please don't eat big macs.

[defendandprotect]

145. I'm sure people concerned with autism appreciate your . . . eh . ..

humor?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

148. Hey....

it's no less stupid than the suggestion that it comes from vaccines.

[defendandprotect]

150. If you have hard evidence of that, why resort to . . .

stupid comments?

And, you're on "ignore."

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

152. Hard evidence?

There's as much evidence that masturbation, witchcraft, or demon possession is the cause of autism as there is vaccines.

You're exploiting autism patients, btw.

You're positing a loony theory, then using them as a shield to deflect criticism of your own theories.

Pretty sick shit, when you get right down to it.

[Evoman]

155. Hey, you're the one insulting autistic people by assuming the stick stuck up their ass is as big as

yours.

[varkam]

158. You're concerned with autism only insofar as your personal concerns are...well...

concerned - pardon the pun.

That's the thing with most anti-vaxxers that I have dealt with - they don't seem to really care what causes autism, just so long as it's vaccines. It can't not be vaccines, because they already know it's vaccines. Contrary evidence is explained away by appealing to a massive, global conspiracy involving tens of thousands of active participants, whereas the thinly veiled frauds of the likes of Wakefield and scientifically illiterate individuals like Jenny McCarthy and RFK Jr are held up as the only people that are "concerned".

Bullshit. Seems to me that if the merc-militia were really "concerned" they'd take their head out of their ass and get a gander at reality.

[KatyaR]

161. Apparently autism is just overly permissive parenting that "a little cream" can cure.

Check out what the good, conversative, Christian people in Oklahoma think about autism (emphasis mine):

http://newsok.com/criticism-surprises-oklahoma-autism-bill-backer/article/3343437">Criticism surprises Oklahoma autism bill backer
One proposal detractor advised treatment with cream
BY MICHAEL MCNUTT
Published: February 5, 2009

Wayne Rohde knew the conservative group he talked to Wednesday would be cool to his efforts for legislation to mandate insurance companies provide coverage of treatment for autistic children. But some of their comments caught him by surprise.

Some members of the Oklahoma Conservative Political Action Committee suggested to Rohde, whose 11-year-old son, Nick, is autistic, that families with autistic children form a nonprofit organization and seek donations or get together and self-insure the payments that cost some families about $5,000 a month.

Many in the group, made up of conservative Republicans and libertarians, said they opposed the concept of state government interfering with a private industry.

One doubted the costly behavioral treatments, saying a cream applied to a child’s temples could be more effective.

Another person suggested Rohde, who moved to Oklahoma 11 years ago, move back to the state where he was born and let that state take care of his family’s needs.

And people wonder why I violently hate Repukes and religion . . . . :puke:

I can't BELIEVE these assholes had the nerve to say things like that--if I had been one of those parents, I'd have slammed my foot down someone's throat. There are some NASTY people in this state, and it's just getting worse. The Pukes have control of the entire legislature now, and they're aiming for the governorship as soon as Henry terms out, and they'll win it, too.

[Hekate]

162. The more I read about it, the more I believe sick kids are the canaries in our coal mine...

Autism is absolutely devastating to families and growing hugely for no discernible reason. Asthma among children is spiraling upward as well. But why?

I believe that our environment is by now so polluted with man-made chemicals that it is making our children sick before they leave the womb. Studies of cord-blood show a toxic stew of hundreds of different chemicals; in some regions breast milk, if it came from a cow, would not be allowed to be sold for consumption.

There may be a genetic weakness or predisposition, but the skyrocketing rates of the two diseases I mentioned above point to an abundance of environmental causes -- and not vaccines.

Hekate