Anybody watching this show on MSNBC about absent fathers?

[proud2BlibKansan]

It's so sad. Especially the fathers who are in jail.

I have taught a bunch of kids with dads in prison. If they are in the federal system (most are - they are in on drug charges) they are in a federal prison very far away from home. I have never understood why they just can't put them in Leavenworth, which is less than an hour from here. Then their kids could see them more often. But instead they are in Texas and Illinois or Colorado, at least a days drive from here.

The best way to keep a prison inmate from re-offending when he gets out is keeping him in touch with his family while he is incarcerated. That's pretty hard when it is too expensive to call and the prison is so far from his family.

Anyway, really sad show. But glad it's on. This is the life so many kids have - no father.

[elocs]

1. They once farmed out prisoners from here in Wisconsin to Texas and I thought that was stupid.

I'd rather have these guys getting out of prison less pissed off than when they went in because in this situation they will likely come back to Wisconsin.

Kids with absent fathers are a sad and pathetic commentary on the male gender, but then again there evidently are a lot of immaculate conceptions in this country. Real men don't leave their children's lives and take responsibility for their kids.

[FirstLight]

2. MANY "biological fathers" CHOOSE to desert their families..

Let's not waste too many tears on the men in this situation.

My first husband abandoned me a month before I was pregnant, and drained the bank account for months before he left. He has NEVER tried to contact us or asked about his son, even in a letter sent through the Child Support dept. - even though he sees the money come out of his check every 2 weeks... My oldest is now 16.

My second husband we ran from because of his abuse that I was afraid was going to spread to the kids. He was convicted on child porn possession after I found it on my computer after leaving him(my baby girl had to be examined for sexual abuse...which was 'inconlusive')...He then violated parole and moved to a larger city to get involved in a pot growing operation.. he's in Fed Prison for 6 years now, and will have to serve more for violating the previous parole. We have been free for 5 years and I am still in deep therapy and have PTSD moments still.... The kids are only 6 & 7 now.

The one who IS in jail deserves it. I hope someone would work on his issues and help him heal inner demons - but the truth is that he will be released at the end of his time, being completely institutionalized...and probably go back for that reason alone. Too bad, me & the kids were the BEST chance at a NORMAL life he could have hoped for. now he is just a statistic, and FAR from being a FATHER.!

so spare me your compassion for these assholes...many of them CHOOSE their drugs or crime, or just their stupid "freedom"
OVER their families, and the kids are better off without that influence.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

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[JANdad]

6. Read my mind on that one...

Sure can pick 'em eh?

[FirstLight]

9. Neither of you even KNOW ME, so you have no right to judge

youth and circumstances being what they were, I did the best I knew how... and my frustration is because I get tired of people having compassion for the dads, when the moms are left holding the bag and dealing with the destruction left in their wake.
Just Like you are judging me for "not having my head on straight" ...so obviously I am at fault for making the choices in less than superior men...and not giving credit for surviving in less than superior situations! but you would rather fee sorry for the men and their kids than for the mom who has to try and recover AND take care of a home and raise hapy children and put food on the table and find a scrap of success in all the struggle...

yea, no double standard THERE


AT least I had the smarts to get out when the getting was good, and had the knowledge to seek therapy for myself and the kids when appropriate, and sought our training for better jobs, etc...but no credit for us there...only people who say the men and the kids get the shaft.

Yes, I am angry, because the SINGLE MOM stigma is bullshit!!! you treat us like crap as a society, and then act like it is OUR fault when we are depressed or unsucessful and our kids are struggling to make it with less food, less clothes and less resources because the father is either conveniently working under the table or in prison and can't contribute.

yes, let's blame the WOMAN who HAD the kids, and not ask about the circumstances at ALL

:mad:

[ogneopasno]

10. Hang tough there, FirstLight -- you've been through the fire and you don't owe anyone anything.

I wish you nothing but good.

[stillcool]

24. I'm not a single mom/dad...

Thank goodness I was such a great druggie/drunk and had such an aversion to 'family', that I never considered it a plausible possibility. I am certain, that any child I raised would most certainly be in jail or dead at a very young age. I've known plenty of people..men and women, who abandoned their families by walking away, or going away. Let's not discuss those circumstances either.

[I Have A Dream]

30. You did the right thing, FirstLight.

Let others judge you as they will; you know you did what you had to do. If you hadn't, then you'd be at fault, in my opinion. :hug:

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. You are providing plenty of information so we do indeed know a lot about you

Again, your choice.

[FirstLight]

46. Look...you are in NO place to say horrible things about me

JUST because I believe that the idea of coddling criminals is wrong? geez!

FWIW - When I met #2, it was 9-10 years after the first big implosion. (see below for heartbreak details, lots of fun)
The relationship had a few "red flags" in retrospect, but I learned in group at the women's center that the psychology of an abuser is SOOOOO insidious, it LOOKS for the perfect profile for a victim.
I had been abandoned before, he knew that was my weakness, and thought that I would never get to the point of actually LEAVING... Lucky for us I grew some spine!
He had even said to me once that he was able to prefectly match his personality to fit with people he wanted something from, to get what he wanted. Later I realized our relationship was the same way. A game, a manipulation to play dominance & control.

I never really saw it coming in the begining, it was the completion to a dream of a family. and it turned into a nightmare.

So don't EVEN try to judge me, you haven't walked a mile in MY moccasins, babe.

AND MY Children will NEVER know that MONSTER
and forgiveness for him can be left to God, because I will never do it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

51. Then don't post personal information

[JVS]

47. Yeah, and you don't know all the absentee fathers, so you have no right to judge all of them

[laconicsax]

13. Way to blame the victim.

:wtf:

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. The kids are the victims

Not the mother. She had choices. They did not.

[Flying Dream Blues]

41. You seem to have your priorities mixed up. You post later that most are in prison

for drug charges, which is quite different from FirstLight's situation in which the sexual abuse of her daughter by the child's father was "inconclusive" but not ruled out. I guess you don't see a difference in having a relationship with such a person vs. someone who is in prison for having a few joints on him? And I also suppose you've never trusted someone only to have that person change or betray you in some way? If so, you've been lucky, but that luck doesn't give you the right to judge others for making decisions they feel are necessary to protect themselves or their children.

You work with children, and yet you seem to have so little compassion for this mother. Every situation is different, and some fathers who are in prison undoubtedly deserve to have a relationship with their children, and some do not because their presence just causes additional pain that the children do not deserve.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

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[alexandria]

15. I think you are missing the point.

I won't comment on her choice of husbands,some fathers need to be kept away from their offspring..

I dunno going to visit a father in jail cannot be good for the child.

A lot of fathers are in jail for serious crimes,armed robbery,murder,ete etc.
If you can explain to me how it would be good for the kid to bring him to prison to meet daddy ,he likes to steal and kill people ..
Go right ahead....

[proud2BlibKansan]

19. Kids have a right to have a relationship with their fathers

Yes, going to visit him in prison is better than not knowing him at all.

[I Have A Dream]

22. I've been through it, and I don't agree. nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

59. self delete

[alexandria]

23. Relationship?

Visiting him in prison is a relationship?
You gotta be joking me?

[proud2BlibKansan]

29. Not joking at all

I have taught quite a few kids to read and write by helping them read and write letters to and from their incarcerated fathers. And I have received a few thank you notes from the fathers.

Going to visit dad is a high point for them. They come back with pictures and are so excited.

Not every father in prison is an evil or dangerous man.

[I Have A Dream]

32. ...and not every woman who decides to remove her children...

from such a toxic environment is doing it because they're selfish.

You don't want generalizations to be made about the men, but you have made very negative generalizations about women who decide that the current environment isn't right for their children.

[Flying Dream Blues]

43. Even when that father may have sexually abused the child? I hardly think so. nt

[emilyg]

61. Not always.

[I Have A Dream]

20. I did it, and it was a very weird experience.

Everyone did it for the benefit of my father rather than for our benefit. We were there to support him rather than being there so that we had a father figure in our lives.

You're right; my stepfather's cell mate was there for killing his girlfriend. He was in there for life. I can still remember the one time that we went to a party at the prison where we met him and the others there. It was an unreal experience. My stepfather was there for a non-violent crime, but we were exposed to murderers and rapists.

:(

[treestar]

56. Supposedly it is better for the child to know where they are

Children feel the father is safe, know where they are and that is better than not knowing. Some things are not as obvious as they seem on the surface.

Children might still miss their father, even though he is a criminal. And it's better they see what the consequences of his behavior are. They can learn from that to do better themselves.

[I Have A Dream]

17. Sorry, how did you turn this around as you did?

She's telling you from her own personal experience that not all children are better off with their fathers.

Now, let me tell you how it is from the child's point of view in some situations. My stepfather (the only father that I knew) was in prison twice. My mother stayed with him for the sake of the children. It wasn't until we children begged her to leave him that she gave herself permission to remove herself (and us) from all of the trauma that he brought into our lives every time he decided to put in an appearance. The stress that children feel when living in a household with a parent (in this case father) who is nothing more than a large aggressive child rather than a parent can be overwhelming. He was a drain on our family, never contributing in any way -- only took. Once our father left, our lives stabilized. Everything got better.

I don't feel that all fathers who are incarcerated are like this, but I bet a large percentage of them are. In these cases, I think that it's pretty safe to say that most children are better off without having their fathers in their lives. I know that my siblings and I were.

When a father is a healthy, contributing member of society, that's a different story.

[proud2BlibKansan]

26. I have spent 30 years teaching kids

And in my opinion, kids are better off with a father than without. That's just my experience but it is extensive. I usually have 2 or 3 kids every year who have fathers who are incarcerated.

My husband also made mistakes when our kids were younger. But I chose to help him work through his problems rather than abandon him. And I made that choice because of our kids. In the long run, it was the right choice. As much as I wanted him out of my life, I wanted my kids to have a dad more.

So I don't have a lot of sympathy for women who choose to be single parents. Are all of them wrong? No of course not. But my own personal experience taught me that keeping a father in a child's life is usually the right choice.

[I Have A Dream]

28. I completely disagree with you.

Thank you for your explanation, but, having gone through it, I can't say strongly enough how much I disagree with you. My stepfather was an alcoholic womanizer who would be gone for a week at a time, show up at our house because he ran out of money, take the little bit of money our family had, and then go back out carousing. When that didn't work, he stole. Why would my mother be a more responsible parent by keeping us exposed to that? He added nothing to our lives.

I see children who have "normal" fathers who love them and care about them, and I feel so happy for them. If a child were losing that, I'd completely agree with you that efforts should be made to keep that love in the child's life. That's not the way it was for us. We had a cancer removed from our everyday life and were then able to heal and become healthy, productive members of society.

I applaud my mother and any other parent who removes his/her children from a toxic environment like the one in which I was.

[proud2BlibKansan]

31. Not every man who is not living with his children is evil

Surely you realize that.

[I Have A Dream]

35. How do you get "evil" from what I said?

Also, not every woman who removes her children from such an environment is selfish. You pretty much did say that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

38. Your stepfather wasn't evil? Bad? Not good for you?

Sorry if I misinterpreted what you said. :shrug:

[I Have A Dream]

40. You and I have different definitions of evil.

My stepfather wasn't a positive influence in our lives in any way. That doesn't make him "evil". That makes him a very bad parent. To keep us in that situation would be child abuse, in my opinion. My mother made the responsible decision by no longer staying in the marriage.

Was he "evil"? No. Was he an immature child? Absolutely. I, at 12, was more mature than he was.

(On edit: fixed typo)

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

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[proud2BlibKansan]

34. "You are permitted to tell someone that you are adding them to your ignore list,

provided that you actually do so."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules_detailed.html

[flyingfysh]

33. Marrying 2 losers can happen to anyone

My wife had married 2 losers, I am husband #3. She discovered that her 2nd husband had spent all the household money on cocaine, so I took in her and 2 small children, and married her as soon as the divorce came through (she had to pay him off to make him go away). This year we are having our 20th anniversary, and our son will be deciding which of several colleges to attend (he hopes to get into Stanford).

Marrying losers does happen to good people. Show some compassion.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

39. Are you sure you aren't a Republican? I have seen more compassion in Neo-Nazis.

[alexandria]

8. It might be time for you to heal the inner demons.

If not for you, for the kids.

[FirstLight]

12. ya...already on it, thanks......nt

[Berry Cool]

14. It takes two to make a bad relaionship. It wasn't all you, it wasn't all them

as I am sure you are learning. Women who get involved in relationships with losers do so for a reason...but it's not because losers are what they deserve.

Some men who act like rats to women and children will never change. Others get older and with time and life come to regret their behavior. But either way, when you're a single mom you have no choice but to do the best you can by your kids regardless. You end up holding the bag. It's a tough life, and I have no criticism for anyone who does it less than perfectly or has remaining bitterness because I know my mother had the same. I only wish there had been more justice for her in the end than to be the one who died first, with me now trying to build some kind of relationship with my father, who is now old enough and close enough to the end of his life that he's starting to really think over the mistakes he's made in his life and be honest about them in a way he wasn't before. It's making me see both my parents through new eyes, for all the flaws both of them had, but I really wish I still had both of them around to share that perspective with.

Hang in there. Your kids will know who did right by them.

[alexandria]

16. Good.I wish the best for you..NT

[AngryAmish]

37. Can I ask a question

"My first husband abandoned me a month before I was pregnant,..."

was this a typo, cause if he abandoned you before you were pregnant it can't be his son.

I really shouldn't be the one to explain this to you (your folks should have done this a long time ago) but just because a man and a woman are married does not automatically mean they have a child together. They have to do certain, well, activity....Aw, geez, really, ask someone you really trust about this.

[FirstLight]

45. oops...a month before delivering....

I was 8 months pregnant when it fell apart...I found him at a all night cafe with a bad cousin and two strung out bitches, he had been gone for two days...Whe he left for work, he knew I knew he was up to something...so he just didn't come home. I had been calling hospitals and cruising the boulevard looking for him... It was unlike the person I thought he was.
The rug wa completely pulled out from under me
I was 21
I thought my life had ended

But I put it back together and finished college
then met hubby #2 about 9-10 years after that heartbreak
and thought it was the completion of our picture...

more detail above...

[RiverStone]

50. Parents who knowingly abandon their children are selfish cowards!!!

No excuse!

I have worked for 20 years in the public schools and those parents (both men and women) who chose to run away from their responsibility as dads or moms - cause heartbreak and pain that lasts for generations.

I'm sorry you had such sad and negative experiences with the fathers of your children. You deserve far better - may you find it (or him).

peace~

On Edit: This does not apply to young parents who planfully put their babies up for adoption. I'm talking about the creeps that run or avoid paying child support.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

63. So...

if your husband left a month before you were pregnant, who was the biological father? Why would he want to contact you if he is not the father? Your story is confusing... :shrug:

My first husband abandoned me a month before I was pregnant,

[Blue_In_AK]

3. Many Alaska prisoners (about 800 I think) have been shipped out to Arizona...

particularly cruel since many of them are Alaskan Natives who have no experience with hot weather, or even life out of the villages.

Alaska will soon be building it's largest prison out in the Mat-Su Valley so these people can be brought home. I wish there were a better way than incarceration for everyone, but if it has to be done, at least it's good to maintain some family ties where appropriate.

[proud2BlibKansan]

5. How stupid

It's so sad. Many of the kids I know whose dads are incarcerated see them at most once every couple years. It's tragic.

[alexandria]

21. Maybe dads should stay out of prison.

Act like responsible adults and look after your child..
Tragic my ass......

[proud2BlibKansan]

27. Most of the ones I know are in prison because of the stupid drug laws in this country.

[alexandria]

42. Wow i was waiting for the stupid drugs law argument.

Daddy should be with his child all the time .
Blaming it on the gov because he was arrested for selling drugs .
Bullshit.

[EFerrari]

48. Our drug laws are racist AND stupid. n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

52. You don't think our drug laws are stupid?

They split families up. I'd love to hear why you think that's okay.

[emilyg]

62. Of course not for murder or robbery.

:sarcasm:

[elizfeelinggreat]

7. I think they ship them out

because the federal government contracts out prisons and all the services associated with that. Halliburton does many of those, I think.


ETA: They would be using cheap real estate to maximize profits.

[Doctor_J]

11. Was Gingrinch one of them?

Or do right-wing blowhards get a pass?

[MrSlayer]

49. Leavenworth holds the worst of the worst.

It's a level five prison. You don't put simple drug offenders in there. The only harder prison is Marion which is a level six, 24 hour lockdown.

[proud2BlibKansan]

53. Lots of dads I know are in Marion for drug offenses

They also move them around from Marion to Texas and Colorado. If a non violent drug offender is in Marion, why can't he be in Leavemworth, where he is closer to his family?

[MrSlayer]

54. You're thinking of the satellite prison at Marion.

There is the level 6 prison at Marion and then there is a minimum security prison on the same site. The drug offenders you are referring to are in the minimum security prison there. Only the unredeemables are in the level 6 at Marion.

[proud2BlibKansan]

55. My point is I know dads serving there

who are in on non violent drug offenses. They are still too far from their families.

[MrSlayer]

58. I agree with you.

But I'm just telling you why they aren't and should not be in Leavenworth.

[Le Taz Hot]

57. Actually, recidivism

is the result of MANY factors. The inability to find a job, lack of education, lack of transportation, lack of support groups, inability to get into rehab (if substance abuse is the problem), REPEATING THE SAME BEHAVIOR THAT GOT THEM IN PRISON IN THE FIRST PLACE are just some of the factors contributing to recidivism. I worked with Parolees for 5 years and many didn't have the family support that they desperately needed -- but many DID and they CHOSE to continue their negative behavior. Having said that, a lot of these guys didn't have a chance from the get-go as too many times they were born to teen mothers who were ill-equipped to raise a child and who's fathers were absentee -- a fine tradition that is flourishing to this day, btw.

Your suggestion that if they were just in closer proximity to their families is not backed up by data or facts. There are many factors that contribute to the problem.

[SoCalDem]

60. Choosing tha father of her children is the trickiest decision, a woman ever makes

Choose well, and your children have a shot at a decent life..Hook up with a loser, or have "accidental" children with strangers, and ...not so much..

Children with a woman a man does not love or even respect, will probably not get much attention /affection /support from him..