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Jcrowley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-25-07 08:08 PM
Original message
A Must Read Post By DUer PEACE PATRIOT
To provide context this post was originally posted in this thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x494873

And it speaks to so much more.


We really need to look to the basics of democratic power--who is counting our votes and how they are counting them (or not counting them), and what this may have to do with continued billions of dollars of funding for war that 75% of the American people oppose, and who has control of environmental regulation, and of much of our scientific research, and how this may be affecting adequate cautions and controls over new products, and over large global impacts of corporate industrial activity.

For instance, I don't think we have begun to understand what the corporate invasion of our universities has meant, in the defunding of objective science, and promotion of corporate-friendly research and results. We are certainly starting to understand what the Bushite control of the EPA means, as to honest scientific reports on global warming. Why isn't there more research on the bee die-offs and GMOs, and why wasn't this done BEFORE GMOs were permitted into the environment? How could such an important element of agriculture, and of all life on earth, have been ignored, in the proliferation of GMOs?

What this mad corporate free piracy (called "free trade") has meant, just simply in terms of tankers circling the globe and other polluting vehicles, and their contribution to global warming, receives little or no study, or mention anywhere, because the corporate rulers don't want it taken into consideration. The same with bees, I think. For instance, taking cotton from the highly polluted cotton fields of Uzbekistan, by tanker, to spinning factories somewhere in Asia, then hauling the cloth, in more polluting vehicles, to the Mariana Islands, where young women--imported by air or sea (in polluting vehicles) from extremely poor Asian countries, and indentured for their passage--end up sewing Gap jeans and other clothing, in sweatshop conditions--thence, once again in a tanker that is polluting ocean and atmosphere, the final manufactured product reaches US docks, where the goods are unloaded, and moved in yet more polluting vehicles all over the country, and sold to us at inflated prices, in shopping malls that encourage transportation by yet more polluting vehicles.

If someone wanted to design a system to kill the planet, this would be part of it. The other parts are deforestation and coal-burning, and a few other activities, which, if conducted on a limited scale, don't do that much damage (the earth has a lot of healing power), but on a worldwide corporate industrial scale, are wreaking havoc with all of the world's ecosystems, and may have already--just in a hundred years time--drastically altered the earth's temperature and weather, and certainly have irrevocably destroyed important components of many, many ecosystems--entire fish and bird species, for instance.

The people here who are saying that GMO crops have nothing to do with massive bee die-off's do not have enough caution about radical changes to the environment and to food systems. We know that impacts sometimes take decades to prove "beyond a reasonable doubt." The watchword should be caution--and, indeed, extreme conservatism--when it comes to altering anything so vital as our food system and other life-sustaining systems of earth. But the global corporate predators who are running things--Monsanto among them--have no "checks and balances" on them now, in the US, let alone the extremely conservative restrictions that should be placed on them by our government. They control the EPA and other regulatory agencies, and much of the research in this country. How can they be trusted in these circumstances?

We are seeing massive disruptions of earth's ecosystem--everywhere--affecting all habitats and numerous species, and all of it is very bad news. And we don't get half the bad news, I'm sure. The war profiteering corporate news monopolies make sure of that.

So, what should be our attitude about bee die-off's and GMOs? That some probably underfunded, heavily pressured scientists, operating in the teeth of Corporate Rule, have to prove the impact beyond a reasonable doubt? Or that such scientists, because they merely suspect an impact--because their research is incomplete, or hasn't yet been perfected as to method or focus, or is perhaps off track in some way--should shut up until they know more?

I think that, even with a mere suspicion, all GMO production and distribution should be stopped. World agriculture will continue. It is not dependent on GMOs. GMOs are not a natural part of the earth's biosphere. They are an economic entity--a profit-maker. In fact, many, many farmers around the world think they would be much better off without GMOs. Why favor Monsanto profits, if the consequence could be the end of all life on earth? This potential consequence requires extreme conservatism.

We are seeing multiple, complicated impacts of vast global industrialization, on all ecosystems. These can be very difficult to sort out. It may be impossible to prove that one particular impact leads to one particular consequence. We may never know what, exactly, caused bee die-offs. It is possibly a cumulative effect. And there is much reason to propose a halt to, or severe curtailment of, global traffic, of big industrial impacts--such as massive deforestation--and of any drastic alteration such as the introduction of GMOs, until we stabilize the earth and figure out what the hell we are doing. Trade is a human need and a human joy. It is part of our creative and adventurous spirit. But what we have now is not trade--it is monopoly, mono-culture and grave, tyrannical oppression by out-of-control corporate monstrosities. We must find a way to curtail them, and, if our political system fails--and it apparently is--then we must use boycotting, protest and public education. We are really up against it. The World Wildlife Fund gives our planet 50 years, at present levels of pollution and consumption. 50 years to planetary death. Is that what we want our legacy to be? The death of planet Earth?

The red flags on GMOs are multiplying. Whether bees are victims or not, we don't know for sure. And the very notion of altering the DNA of plant life should be a red flag in itself. This is yet another thing that should never have happened without vigorous, objective, long term research, on every conceivable impact, and close consultation with traditional farmers--who are the protectors and keepers of seeds, and especially of their variety. Monsanto has shoved traditional farmers aside. That should be enough of a red flag. When profit is the only motive, we all suffer, and our suffering may include utter catastrophe for all of us, and for all future humans, if we don't find a way to enforce extreme conservatism in the alteration of earth's life systems.

Reposted with full permission.
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Gabi Hayes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-25-07 08:25 PM
Response to Original message
1. here's another one, on media/Novak/Plame
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-26-07 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #1
21. And one on Venezeula
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-25-07 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
2. "...all GMO production and distribution should be stopped."
Knee jerk anti-science ranting. I'm sorry-- I'm an ecologist and I'm VERY cognizant of the damage that humans are doing to the biosphere. I'm also an entomologist and I can assure you that people ARE studying the honey bee colony collapse disorder-- check with the CCD Working Group at Penn State.

There is ZERO evidence that I'm aware of implicating GMO crops in CCD. If GMO crops are ever found to be the causitive agent-- and right now there are numerous other likely candidates--then you can bet your bottom dollar that the responsible recombinants will be destroyed very quickly. But that's a moot point, because the OP is filled with fear-mongering without any evidence to support it.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-25-07 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Thanks for the informative post, mike.
I didn't know what to think after reading the OP, and I do have an antipathy toward GMOs, but your perspective is helpful.
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Gabi Hayes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-25-07 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. guess you didn't look so very hard, now, did you? this took five seconds:
among which there's this, which might account for why you haven't found any evidence: you're not LOOKING!

I, for one, will ALWAYS take the word of Monsanto over anybody, just as I take that of Shell, BP, etal, over the thousands of peer reviewed articles that assert that human activity has something to do with climate change.

I'm well aware that, so far, they haven't found clear GM connections between bee dieoffs, but to say there is NO evidence is just, well...come on. There IS evidence that GM crops have other deleterious effects on bees. I just read about what they may do stingers, digestive and immune systems, and I'm no expert. But I can read, and if this sort of thing is noted already, what do you think is going to happen when GM crops, will replace, in effect, most crops/seeds. you know that's what they want. do you know what they're doing to seed distribution in Iraq, the neoglobalist's playground?

http://www.ento.psu.edu/MAAREC/FAQs.htm


What are examples of topics that the CCD working group is not currently investigating?

GMO crops: Some GMO crops, specifically Bt Corn have been suggested as a potential cause of CCD. While this possibility has not been ruled out, CCD symptoms do not fit what would be expected in Bt affected organisms. For this reason GMO crops are not a “top” priority at the moment.

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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-25-07 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. huh? that's what I said....
Edited on Sun Mar-25-07 09:15 PM by mike_c
What are examples of topics that the CCD working group is not currently investigating?

GMO crops: Some GMO crops, specifically Bt Corn have been suggested as a potential cause of CCD. While this possibility has not been ruled out, CCD symptoms do not fit what would be expected in Bt affected organisms. For this reason GMO crops are not a “top” priority at the moment.


GM crops are not considered a likely causitive agent at this time. By entomologists who have considered them. There is no current evidence linking CCD to GM crops. Only speculation. ZERO evidence.

Read the preliminary report from the same site-- there are LOTS of more likely possibilities at this point, most of them having to do with either stress/mite/pathogen interactions or the possible action of imidocloprids.

As for the snarky comment about not having looked, Gaby-- this is my profession. I'm an insect ecologist. I've known about the CCD Working Group report for months. That is the site that I recommended in my initial comments above. Yeah-- the one that I "couldn't find." Sheesh.
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Gabi Hayes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-25-07 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. you said, "that you were aware of"
are you aware of ALL research conducted on the subject?

and my snark was no less due than yours toward the OP. just because they haven't found the smoking gun yet doesn't mean they won't, and the evidence of widespread ill effects of other GM crops/pesticides, etc, doesn't give me any faith in what they have in store for us.

not trying to pick a fight, and I respect the fact that you do what you do, but the folks that brought us things like Bhopal are much less worried about the subtle, multi-generational effects of GM products, and have NO compunction in lying, hiding uncomfortable experimental findings, etc., because all they care about is their bottom line.

why on EARTH did we have to rush into mass production of so many of these wonder products?

that's easy to answer, isn't it?

speaking of which, what do you know about the Iraq Order 81: Plant Variety Protection?

It's stuff like this that make me wary of everything I hear about GM. You're much closer to the situation, obviously, and have professional knowledge, but that doesn't mean there aren't some things you don't know.

that said, what's the prognosis for the bee population?
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-25-07 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. yes....
Edited on Sun Mar-25-07 09:30 PM by mike_c
Iraq Order 81 is a massive giveaway to multinational agribusiness. It is what they've been about since the beginning of the "Green Revolution." I'm actually not a big fan of GM crops for THAT reason. Take away the seed patents and I'd be a lot more comfortable.

oops on edit-- no one knows what the prognosis is. One thing to keep in mind is that the european honey bee is genetically VERY shaky-- bee researchers have recognized for years that native pollinators would be a much better long term choice unless something can be done to improve current EHB strains. Lots of work being done on that-- I don't know the current status off hand. The big problem with many native pollinators is that relying on them would wreck honey production, which is a BIG business.
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Gabi Hayes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-25-07 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. what does the future hold as far as the spread of GM seeds? will
they overtake/replace unmodified seed, both by natural spread, and fascist (legally implemented) decree, forcing even subsistence farmers to use their product?

this scares the crap out of me.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-25-07 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. hmmm-- see #17....
eom
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-25-07 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Well
There is evidence that GMO corn has caused problems for the Monarch butterfly, so it may just be a matter of time before a causation regarding bees is found.

As an ecologist you must be aware that evolution has been unnaturally altered by GMOs and that as a consequence the food chain will respond. Evolution always responds to alterations in the natural world.
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Gabi Hayes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-25-07 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. it's already too late....we're SO screwed.
Edited on Sun Mar-25-07 09:01 PM by Gabi Hayes
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Annces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-25-07 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
14. There is not enough oversite on chemicals used
in farming. HOw can that be anti-science ranting.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-25-07 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. I agree with THAT comment 100 percent....
eom
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Jcrowley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-25-07 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #2
15. Let's look at this
Edited on Sun Mar-25-07 09:30 PM by Jcrowley
First before I hammer on your post let me say, as you already know, I have the utmost respect for you. Now of course I reserve the right to change my opinion. LOL!

The comment that is very disturbing to me is the opener where you immediately suggest that the OP is knee-jerk anti-science ranting. That is a defense mechanism that serves to deflect from any relevant analysis of the science itself. It is also a comment that in my long experience is prevalent in halls and brochures of Monsanto and other such promoters of BioTech. There IS bad science. Plant genetic engineering is the perfect example where public relations exercises seem to have replaced science in promotion of untested, unproven and unnecessary technology.

Now let's address the specific point you bring up relating to GMO's impact on bees and studies to prove or disprove this. Let's first go away from the topic with a comparison and then come back to it.

For corporate polluters all around they use the defense in liability cases that the pollutant that they have produced cannot be proven to be the sole cause of Cancer X. And this is true. That's virtually impossible to prove.

The same is true with GMO's. There are so many factors involved in the decimation of the bee population that one could not possibly point to GMO's as the primary culprit even if it were the case.

What makes this even more difficult is that the ZERO evidence that you speak of is partly due to the fact that any testing that could be done on this point, as well as others regarding GMO's, has been fought every step of the way. When I say fought I mean utterly undermined in the most vicious of ways. And that is not even getting to the funding aspect of this equation.

GMO's should be banned immediately. They are worthless, dangerous and require MASSIVE energy inputs and have no benefits for people anywhere in the world.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-25-07 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. I almost made a comment in reply to Gabi, then backtracked...
Edited on Sun Mar-25-07 09:53 PM by mike_c
...but one of your comments brought it back to mind. ALL industrialized farming is massively energy intensive, and that certainly goes for GMO seed production. I was going to say to Gabi that my gut feeling is that the technology is unsustainable.

I backtracked because I began to consider the economics and I realized that GM seed production is at least temporarily sustainable under certain conditions-- indeed, those are the conditions that underlie the business models making them profitable today.

First, multinational agribusiness is shifting the economic costs of producing and maintaining GM lines from other management costs and pocketing the difference. For example, from an industrialized farmer's perspective the costs of cultivation, pest management, etc, can be reduced without loss of yield by using some GM crops, so they justify the extra cost of the seed and the industrial base necessary to produce it, ultimately shifting some of their costs from other management expenses to buying GM seed. This aspect of GM crop sustainability applies mainly in an industrial ag setting, where those management costs are indeed high.

Second, GM crop sustainability requires huge energy subsidies, both for seed production and for the industrial agriculture practices it supplies. This requires an energy rich society to provide those subsidies, and an undiminished future energy budget.

I think both of those are necessary conditions for the sustainability of GM seed production.

I know this didn't really address any of your comments, but I just wanted to develop the thoughts.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-25-07 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
3. Nominated.
Edited on Sun Mar-25-07 08:33 PM by H2O Man
Very well said!
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-25-07 08:35 PM
Response to Original message
5. k&r
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bonito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-25-07 08:48 PM
Response to Original message
6. K&R n/t
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MLFerrell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-26-07 06:23 AM
Response to Original message
19. We know that impacts sometimes take decades to prove "beyond a reasonable doubt."
Edited on Mon Mar-26-07 06:23 AM by MLFerrell
DDT anyone? Thalidomide perhaps?
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-26-07 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
20. kick
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CRH Donating Member (671 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-26-07 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
22. When science tinkers with nature ...

There is cause for caution. I read in a stock analysis recently where the drug companies that have developed the new drugs suppressing 'bad' cholesterol while promoting 'good' cholesterol, are waiting for the reports of studies indicating a 4mm change in blood pressure, which translates to a 75% greater chance of strokes. The point being that the science behind the tinkering often has detrimental effects not anticipated, even if it does change the normal dynamics of cause and effect relationships of natural chemical and biological processes.

In nature the slow process of evolution allows for the adaption of other surrounding life forms in the magnificent balance that is nature. When humans are arrogant enough to believe they can foresee the potential short and log term cause and effect relations within the ecosystems, of man made alterations of natural processes with a near infinite amount of of possible variations, it is an arrogance that is more frightening than humorous.

Defense that something is safe because there is no proof that it is not, is folly. In history, science, time and again, has been proven to be incomplete, short sighted, or just plain wrong. Combine this reality with the economics and bottom line of corporate profits, and research can come to startling conclusions, later disproved.

Your points are well taken PP.
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-26-07 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
23. K&R.
Peace Patriot is always a good read.

Though it would seem, too shy or humble to begin threads with those terrific posts. :-) Thanks, Jcrowley.
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