So you want $10,000 and life will continue on as usual right?

[TwixVoy]

Seeing posts from time to time (both here and else where) asking for the feds to cut them a check for $10,000, $30,000 whatever the number is make me both sad and angry.

You want that $10,000 check to just magically appear out of thing air because your credit lines have dried up, you have bills to pay, and you aren't bringing in enough cash to keep living well? Figure it out - YOU ARE BROKE. So is the government. So are the banks. So are many businesses.

We are in this problem because our entire economy has a HOUSE OF CARDS built on CONSUMPTION with ZERO PRODUCTION. To make it worse that consumption was being enabled by spending on CREDIT. Why the hell would anyone in their right mind think borrowing MORE money, handing $10K out to people, and allowing them to further consume would help anything? It would drive us further in to the ground.

When Obama talked about sacrifice a few weeks ago he was talking to you. He was talking to me. Eventually reality will set in to you that the comfortable life you have enjoyed (relative to other nations that is) is coming to an end and it won't be coming back. We are going to become a poor nation. We have exported our wealth. We have exported our manufacturing. We have exported our jobs. (well, any job that isn't a service job that is) Asia, for example, is swimming in cash. They have built up a huge manufacturing base. All thanks to us sending them all of that so that we could enjoy our cheap plastic toys from wal-mart.

The days of being able to finance every aspect of your life - your education, your cars, your consumer purchases, your homes - is quickly coming to an end. It's time to wake up to the fact you are going to be strapped for cash now that your credit lines have dried up. Why? Because the fools that we all are (though, many by choice) let low wages and increased prices be substituted with debt.

So these fools say "Give me $10,000. I'll put it to my debt and never run up my credit card again I've learned my lesson!". BULL SHIT. Back in June 2008 with ultra high gas prices countless fools that financed massive Hummers all of a sudden found out getting a car with 5 miles to the gallon wasn't such a smart move. The media and people all over tried to unload them. Tried to get fuel efficient vehicles. It was all the buzz. Everyone learned their lesson right?

Gee gas goes back down, all of a sudden no one gives a shit about the environment or fuel efficient vehicles. Bookmark this post because gas prices will be right back where they were in 2008 in a few months and all of a sudden everyone will have claimed to have learned that lesson again.

The same would happen to 99% of people who got $10,000 handed to them. Yea, they might put it to a credit card - and they would go right back out and run the card up again. Then they are right back at square one except the national debt goes further through the roof. How many times could we repeat that game?

Fortunately Obama is a smart guy. What everyone needs to realize is that the majority of this "bail out" is not intended to return us to the status quo. It is intended to crash land this air craft in to the ocean instead of a nose dive in to the solid earth. You will not be getting any checks. You will not be going back to the status quo. Sorry to be harsh, but the sooner people realize this the better off they will be.

Once he does stabilize things (should that still be possible at this point) we will continue a permanent decline to poor nation status. No more McMansions. Stabucks every morning? Kiss it goodbye. The vast majority of your cash will be going to survival expenses, and you will have no credit lines to buy extra nice things.

The bail outs are needed so that you at least have a crappy apartment to live in isntead of a box on the street. Had the feds not jumped in to the market at certain key moments last year many of us would be moving in to those boxes right now.

So whose fault is all this? Honestly it is almost everyones. UNLESS you are debt free and have been debt free you contributed to the problem. And don't give me some crap that you have to be in debt because half the country makes far more than I do yet I manage not to be in debt. I have made no more than $25,000/year the past several years. I have zero debt. I live damn poor, but I didn't accumulate debt to do stupid shit like finance a new car for 7 years. Could I have? Sure, but I saw this coming years ago and chose to not fall in to the trap. The banks contributed to the problem by building this house of cards up to the freaking roof. 50 year interest only mortgages? And then allowing people to take out home equity lines of credit against those new loans so they could finance consumer purchases? WTF?????

Anyone who reads my posts regularly knows I read about the economy/finances every day and have for years. A few years ago when I read about HELOCs being handed out like candy, interest only loans, 50 year mortgages, financing offered to anyone regardless of credit history or income I knew we were headed for a shit storm. Yet our elected officials, regulators, and big bankers didn't see it? Nah, they just wanted the party to go on forever and so did the general population.

All of these creative loans were created simply to enable people to run themselves deeper in to debt. People can no longer afford the minimum payment on a 30 year loan? Make a 50 year loan. Still can't afford the minimum payment? Offer an ARM with a nice low rate for the first few years. Can't even do that? Get an interest only loan. All these loan "products" came about because people could no longer afford anything with out crazy financing plans.

It all came about because the underlying system was screwed. We have lost our jobs that actually produce something, and now that we have lost them they won't come back easily. 30+% of the country doesn't even make enough to pay basic living expenses in some cases. We have a nation that wants to consume mindlessly all kinds of crap, and is fully willing to get in to debt to do it.

You may not want to hear all this, but it's the truth. Now it is time for all of us to pay the piper folks. It's going to a rough few decades. My only advice to anyone right now who is in debt and still has a job - make life changes RIGHT NOW to pay off that debt. Get out of it some way. Do not accumulate more debt for any reason. Come next year you may no longer have a job that enables you to do so.

Cash is king right now, and if you have it you should be paying damn close attention to the currency markets every day. If it looks like the dollar is going to collapse over the next year it's time to buy gold and silver.

If you are familiar with a person named Jim Rogers - he is a billionaire investor - he goes around the world giving speeches to other million/billionaires. He is an american citizen, but he has moved to Asia and is getting ALL of his money out of US Dollars this year. He is advising these other billionaires to do the same. He tells them all that Asia will be the new economic power house this century. The rich see the writing on the wall. The old saying is true here - follow the money. If the rich are pulling out of US Dollars they know what is coming down the pipe. I am keeping a very close eye on what is going on with the US dollar, CDOs, and the market in general. The ride is just getting started.

[Xipe Totec]

1. Add a couple of zeros and you got yourself a deal...

:sarcasm:

[trthnd4jstc]

2. Dear Brother,

You are right about it being most of our problem. Imagine an economic system based on Fair Trade, as opposed to profiteering. It is not just our debt that collectively has brought us down. It has been our imperialism, our selfishness, and our desire to profit upon one another, as opposed to behaving as if every person is an individual, and treating people, as if they were important.

I really liked what you wrote here, "We are in this problem because our entire economy has a HOUSE OF CARDS built on CONSUMPTION with ZERO PRODUCTION."

I will fight to help this nation, and the world, and myself, and my family. I am engaged in a terrible struggle, trying to survive, and so are billions of others, throughout our world.

Thanks for the Post!

[cliffordu]

3. yep.

[patrice]

4. What is money, REALLY?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy-fD78zyvI

This is part of a series that explains how money became nothing but codes comprised of 0s and 1s in various storage mediums. In other words, the rich have more of nothing than you do.

[TwixVoy]

11. That is why I suggest if you have cash

be prepared to put it in to gold and silver should the worst start to happen.

Gold holds it's value. One ounce of gold can generally buy you a nice suit at any time in american history, for example. In 1900 one ounce could get you a nice suit. Today it could get you a nice suit. (an ounce of gold can typically be sold anywhere from $800-1000 dollars right now)

Now say you had $50. In 1900 that would get you a nice suit. In 2009 it might get you a cheap shirt and pants.

[eridani]

19. But it won't get you a pount of tomatoes

What would the farmers' market table people use for change?

[dweller]

5. okay, bookmarked.

for what it's worth. A year is nothing.

dp

[Mind_your_head]

6. The RICH believed it!!!! Why can't I?????

(one can decide for themselves whether I'm being "sarcasmic" ;-) or not)

[iamjoy]

7. How True It Is

Most of us share some responsibility for this economic disaster.

We bought items only thinking how inexpensive they were rather than whether we needed them in the first place. We didn't stop to think about where they were made, and if all the manufacturers were shipping job overseas to "save us money" how would Americans continue to have jobs? We moved far out to the suburbs - then spent several hours a week commuting in SUVs. We never stopped to think about our gas consumption or how sprawl increased the cost of government services. We wanted that bigger, nicer house that we couldn't get in the city. We forgot that our parents/grandparents raised four children and had a parent living with them and had a 1,000 square foot house.

The horrible Catch 22 now is, if we do what we should have been doing all along, buying what we need, not what we want and saving money it will only deepen our downward spiral. IF we stop buying clothes because we want them, the retailers will lay off employees. Those people will stop going out for coffees and the coffee shops will also close stores/cut staff. Then those employees...

[Mind_your_head]

12. Maybe we need to start making shoes and furniture and things

that people will actually want to use and buy, rather than just thinking about a "service economy". (Making coffee for someone else is a 'service', just like doing someone's laundry.....they're perfectly capable ~ it's not that difficult to it IT FOR YOURSELF).

Americans have gotten horribly lazy and "confused" about a manufacturing economy vs. a service economy.

[TwixVoy]

14. And that catch 22 is why we are screwed

there is no way around it at this point. We missed the boat.

[liberalhistorian]

75. Bullshit. My parents worked hard for forty years as teachers

and have had to give up everything, with my mom giving up most of my dad's pension to Medicaid every month, because of his early-onset dementia. Forty years of work and responsible behavior are for naught. And most of the others I know are just as responsible, they just had the "nerve" to get a major or long-term illness, or lose their jobs and not be able to find another one because everyone else is looking, too, etc., etc. How dare you put this all on average Americans, when the corporate shills are the ones most at fault and are now laughing all the way to their Cayman Island hideaway, not giving a shit if the rest of us, the "beneficiaries" of their policies, go to hell or not.

[iamjoy]

84. There Is That

there are people who really did play by the rules and do everything right and are still getting screwed. There are people who trusted in the Pensions promised to them by their companies and when the companies went under, the CEOs got the golden parachute and the retirees were screwed. I know people who worked for Braniff and when the airline went under, it turned out they hadn't paid the health insurance premiums (even though they'd been deducting the money) so the people got stuck with the medical bills (months later).

But when you look at how we as a society live now and how we lived fifty years ago, doesn't it make you stop and wonder if maybe a lot of people didn't get a little crazy in pursuit of the American dream? I mean in pursuit of material things, because I think nearly all of the social changes (most notably, the Civil Rights movement, although the sexual revolution is pretty cool too) as well as the advancements in technology and medicine since then are fantastic.

I guess I see Corporate America as drug dealers, we bought their stuff and got addicted. All along the government was the cops who were supposed to be protecting us, but really ignored except the most blatant offenses. In some cases, the cops helped the drug dealers because they were reaping the benefits too. Now the dealers have taken off with our money and we're going through a nasty withdrawal. Sure there were lots of people who were responsible and are still screwed, and there were lot of people who just made bad decisions/poor choices.

We cannot blame everything on Corporate Greed and a complicit government. While there are individual exceptions, and it seems like your parents are a case in point, we have to look at how we as a society got here, and acknowledge our own role - if nothing else it was enabling the corporate greed and bad government.

[closeupready]

8. What's the difference between cutting a $10k check and giving $15k tax credit to home buyers?

Not much, IMO.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. I'll tell it to you

the 10K produces nothing

the 15K encourages building a home, aka employing all those folks who build that house... with a cascade effect

This is econ 101

[girl gone mad]

16. Maybe if the 15K was only allowed for new homes.

Since it also applies to purchases of existing homes, it will stimulate little, if any, new construction.

[closeupready]

20. Nonsense. Consumers with cash in pocket buy things, stimulating economic growth.

n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

60. That's why the two bribes worked so-well

look after the two bribes were sent you'd think that it would sink in

Keynseian economics REQUIRE that you INVEST in building things... a house, roads, factories...

What you are pushing is a refined form of trickle down, which we all know worked wonders over the last eight years.

:sarcasm:

[closeupready]

65. "Cascade effect" is your term, synonymous with trickle down, honey bun.

n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

66. No cascade effect was used by John Maynard Keynes, honey buns

as in cascade effect over the society as you increase employment and SPENDING POWER from the BOTTOM UP

by ahem, EMPLOYING PEOPLE

Which is best done in these crisis by ahem GOVERNMENT honey.

Jessus fucking age, are people this DAMN FUCKING IGNORANT OF ECON 101?

The answer is YES... and highly propagandized

Now honey what you have seen over the last eight years specifically and the last 28 generally is free market, trickle down... and that is what you are advocating. It ain't drops, it IS piss

[liberalhistorian]

76. And you don't think that if people use the 10k

to pay down debt, including medical bills, or pay for education, or make needed purchases, that that won't also stimulate and maintain employment? Get real.

[nadinbrzezinski]

83. Fora quarter or so, which is what happened LAST TIME

You need this to be PERMANENT

[ProfessorGAC]

33. How Does The $10k Produce Nothing?

My house is paid off. I'm not buying a new house just because i can get a tax credit. That would be just stupid of us.

So, if we got $10k, we might actually do something productive with a solid portion of it that could still result in economic stimulation.

And, we would save part of it which would raise one of our bank's liquidity and the liability base, which they would then loan out to make their assets (loan) come into balance (at whatever ratio they employ) to liabilities. (The liability is the chance that i walk in the door and want all my money back.) That's stimulative as well.

Getting people to consider buying a new home just to get a tax credit seems unwise to me because it's still going to result in a significant debt load to many who can't otherwise cover it.
GAC

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. So you will open a factory or a business hiring people?

the house that we are talking about has a direct cascade effect...the 10K don't

This is pretty BASIC Keynseian economics

And the last two bribes, err stimulus checks, should have taught this lesson.

Alas it has not sunk in

[ProfessorGAC]

67. That's Just Incorrect

Sorry, but your understanding of Keynesian economics is odd. Keynsian economics has nothing to do with tax credits for building a house either. That's really no different than the 10k. And, i don't think there is a shred of data to support your contention that housing is directly cascading and the cash isn't.

The other stimulus check DID accomplish something minor. The fact that it wasn't sustainable is a separate issue.

And, i'm not supportive of the whole idea of sending out cash or tax credits for housing. So, before you insult me, you should read the whole thread. I don't like EITHER of the options!

I am for ACTUAL Keynsian solutions. The tax credits aren't.
GAC

[nadinbrzezinski]

70. Housing only NO... you are correct

but a whole slew of FINANCIAL encouragements to get that going YES

That includes helping a slew of industries.

That is the point PUBLIC SPENDING is the pump

Or are you telling me that wasn't the case in the New Deal?

[ProfessorGAC]

73. We're Completely Agreeing On That, nadin!

Complete agreement. The New Deal worked because it generated massive job creation for PUBLIC WORKS projects and, on top of that, created a sense of optimism in the consuming public. Consumer confidence is a critical component in economic sustainability.

So, sure; we agree that public spending is an extremely powerful stimulus. But, providing tax credits to encourage private spending is not Keynesian. It's much closer to Reaganomics than it is to JMK.

So, i'm buying into the stimulus. I'm completely on board with the public works spending. The tax cuts and tax credits i think are much ado about nothing.
GAC

[nadinbrzezinski]

82. Tax cuts for the middle class are actually part of it

Though a VERY SMALL part of it.

Remember, all tax policy has not been progressive over the last oh how many decades?

The way I read that part of the plan, is actually part of a progressive taxing structure, that has a small effect, but an effect

The most critical part for this to work is the public spending... no doubt about that

The new deal also had a reworking of the tax code, and I personally would not mind going back to that... the confiscatory levels of that tax code for the group that benefited during the 1920s trickle down

[tblue37]

86. I am reminded of a short story I once read, though I no longer

remember its title. Here is a brief summary of the story:

In a small South American town, a poor farmer finds a bag full of money. He doesn't realize it is counterfeit money, and neither does anyone else. He begins to spend the money to buy things he has needed for a very long time, and then even begins to spend it on things like enlarging his home, etc.

The money he has pumped into the town's economy employs people, who then have money to spend, which employs more people and increases the profits of various small businesses around town. Before long, the whole town is booming.

But after several months, a police investigation leads to the town, and the townspeople discover that the money they have all been spending is really not money at all, but worthless paper.

Virtually overnight, the town's economic boom deflates, and the people are left just as poor and hopeless as they were before the farmer found the bag full of fake money.

The point is, of course, that currency is "money" only by mutual agreement, just as the "electronic money" that flies around the world at lightning speed is only money by mutual agreement. As long as people in the town accepted the counterfeit money as legal tender, it worked exactly the way money works, and consumer confidence was high.

But when an outsider informed them that their "money" was not money at all, all of a sudden, they had no confidence and no money, and their economy collapsed.

Of course, such a series of events could occur only in a place where what was necessary to thrive was always there, but the people lacked the confidence and initiative to make real use of it.

Someone here quoted an economist a couple of weeks ago (I think it was an economist that was being quoted), who said that the financial crisis of confidence is sort of like having all the ingredients you need to make a soufflé, but you can't make it because you have run out of ounces.

[sandnsea]

13. The $15,000 isn't refundable

and just offsets taxes that are owed, which means it only goes to the wealthiest. Sadly, low income people are going to lose a huge benefit in buying a home. But too many are bamboozled by the number without looking at the details. That's how Republicans always do it.

Otherwise, I agree with your point and think $10,000 to pay off debt would work just as well as anything else. Of course we're going to have a credit based economy and of course globalization is not going to end. We just need Democrats in office who will always put money into new technologies so we don't end up on the losing end of the stick again. That's what really happens in these "recessions", seems to me. We have Republicans who want to stick with an old business because it's where their money is and they lose it because they're too risk-averse to transition to something new.

[closeupready]

21. Oh! I misunderstood - I thought it was refundable. Thanks for that info.

n/t

[Donald Ian Rankin]

23. One alters peoples incentives.

Giving money to everyone means people will do more of the same (actually, that's an outright lie, but it's a good first approximation).

Giving money to people who do X will encourage people to do X.

[ProfessorGAC]

34. How D.I.R.?

How does the tax credit loosen the lending structure to encourage the home buyers?

And, isn't the overpurchase of homes one the things that went wrong? Aren't you encouraging more of the same?
GAC

[Donald Ian Rankin]

36. Not "home buyers", "people considering buying homes".

If I'm committed to buying a home, giving me a tax credit won't change my behaviour. The people it will influence are those wondering about buying a home, who may or may not.

I don't know whether or not that's something you want to encourage or not; that wasn't my point.

[ProfessorGAC]

38. OK

I agree with you basic premise. But, i don't think the tax credit is a very good solution.

It does nothing for the frugal who didn't get in over their head, and it might further encourage flipping because that $15k is already "in the bank".

I just don't like the idea.
GAC

[jmg257]

43. I might actually make good use of the $10K. An imaginery $15K for a "new" house? - not likely.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. You got it except for one thing

manufacturing will come back, mostly because of the imbalance in trade

And globalization, as we know it, is over

You will see some trade wars start in the near future

Yep, this cassandra has been right so far...

As to the lifestyle and consumption, some will come back, but unless we get rid of designed obsolescence, it will remain due to that obsolesence

[earth mom]

15. Show me the money.

The way I feel about it is if they are gonna keep handing MY money to the gawd damn banks so they can squander it on bonuses and bullshit, then

SHOW ME THE MONEY.

I want MY cut of the pie.




I heard on the news tonight that the government is planning a second gawd damn stimulus package for the banks.

:wtf:

So are we to just continue to sit here and not demand a damn thing while the government continues to give OUR money away and squanders it?!

I don't think so.

The bottom line is that we should get all French on their asses and make them afraid of us!!!



Now, that said, I will say you have made some valid points with your OP.

But you can't assume everyone has jacked up credit cards because my husband and I don't.

We pay cash for all the big ticket items we need which includes any house repairs that we need done.

We don't buy loads and loads of crap from China-the majority of our stuff is vintage and/or recycled.

We know all about living on the edge and being creative about survival, we've done it for years.

I have ZERO illusions about Obama or the government saving the country or the economy.

I know we're screwed and I've known it since Reagan was elected and pushed his bullshit service economy.

That was the beginning of The End.

[SammyWinstonJack]

26. !

:thumbsup:

[Skittles]

17. wasn't my fault

I have never been in debt

[Connonym]

18. I'm in awe of your genius

nah, I'm lyin'

[EmilyAnne]

22. Thank you for your detailed explanation! I agree with you 100%.

I am unemployed in Pittsburgh, a place where manufacturing jobs died long ago.
At this point, I have started volunteering full time with the Pittsburgh Literacy Council while sifting through job postings and sending out my resume, hoping for a bite.
I figure volunteering is better than sitting on my butt and feeling sorry for myself.
My point is that, yes, $10,000 would be a massive amount of money to my husband and I. We are holding off our plans to have a baby, have given up hopes to buy a house and are dipping into our pitiful savings that was to go to a down payment.

Neither of us have credit cards. We don't buy useless crap. I try to be thrifty, sewing our curtains from some thrift store drapes, recovering second hand furniture, cooking at home, hosting board game nights so friends can come over and BYOB rather than blowing money at bars.

My point is that, yes, I could definitely use that money. I could definitely convince myself that I deserve that money.
Still, what would be the point in regards to the financial disaster we are in as a country? How could my 10,000 bucks help repair our grossly neglected educational system? We had a minor bridge collapse last year...the Birmingham Bridge that my husband bikes every day to work dropped six inches! Terrifying! Sorry, but I just don't know the first thing about repairing a bridge or even hiring someone to do it. My 10,000 bucks would not be enough for me to hire an expert to take a look at the bridges to make sure that my husband doesn't wind up in the river one day on his way to work.

There are so many things that NEED to be done in this country, financial disaster or not, stimulus package or not. Our infrastructure must be repaired. Period. Our schools need help. Period. They will need to be paid for. Period. People will need to be paid to carry out these jobs. Period.
How does this not make sense to some people?

[HughBeaumont]

24. Looking through your doom-n-gloom-o-rama post .. ..

It's like a giant “victim blaming” that scolds America as a whole for their supposed spendthrift “ring-up-the-credit-card” ways, even though Elizabeth Warren, author of The Two-Income Trap put the kibosh on this long-believed canard in a recent lecture. We’re not getting hit because we’re buying too many unnecessary gadgets. Quite the opposite, actually; the price of many entertainment items/gadgets has gone down relative to inflation (which is why the right-wing talking point of “well yer not poor . . . yew have a DVD player, dontcha?” falls flat on it’s fat face).

The areas we’re getting hit on are housing, education, transportation, health care, groceries, etc. In other words, necessities are priced well out of reach of even the American middle class, much less the working class and poor. You NEED a mortgage to buy ANY home, be it 5 years old or 75; the average American does not have 50 to 150 thousand in cash lying around for a house and it’s patently absurd to think they do or they should. Unless you want a life of stocking shelves or “you want fries with that” jobs (not saying that’s a BAD thing if that is your thing, but it ain’t paying the rent), you NEED a college education just to even get your foot in the door to continue consuming and contributing economically and in turn, for companies to continue producing. What if you get sick? You think any American has a couple-hundred grand to pay for the bills?

What I’m trying to get at is that in all your finger-wagging towards the populace, you’re glossing over the ones patently responsible for putting us ALL in this situation – the wealthy and 28 years of Republican/moderate administrations buoying them.

Poor people didn’t send jobs overseas. Poor people didn’t have their wages stagnant relative to inflation since 1979. Poor people didn’t experience a 1000% increase in their income since 1990. Poor people don’t have the capability of starting new industries or even inventing anything anymore; they don’t have the start-up capital, equipment or expensive attorneys necessary when a corporation tries to overtake them or sue them. Poor people didn’t shift the responsibility of paying taxes from the rich on to themselves. Poor people aren’t being forced from their homes due to an unforeseen amount of bad luck or a major illness. Poor people aren’t the ones building these McCastles because there's a bigger profit to be made on these things compared to reasonable homes; many middle/working/poor classes, depending on their debt situation, can only buy a two-bedroom apartment or older house.

Why not any criticism towards bank underwriters who should be barring the middle class from any mortgage going over 35% of their total income? Why not any criticism towards the business leaders who look out for their shareholders only and show no responsibility towards the nation that provided them the paths to their wealth? Why not any criticism towards manufacturers who CAUSED the “No-Produce-but-you’d-BETTER-Consume!” economy that we have today?

Who gets the blame for our lousy state? Our government for not moving towards universal health care? The wealthy for expecting the world and giving nothing at all back? Universities for promoting the idea of college education while at the same time pricing 65% of the country OUT of one? The wealthy, again, for expecting us to make in the 40,000/year range forever and expecting us to survive on that while the cost of nearly everything is skyrocketing? Three Republican Presidents who ran 70% of our current national debt up for vanity wars of choice and enriching those who least need to be? Or the consumer wanting a 52 inch TV when his pocket can’t even afford an iPod?

Credit where credit is due, please. Stagnant wages vs. vaulting costs is the problem. Risk shifting from the rich to the middle/working/poor classes over the past 30 years is the problem. WE are not the lion's share of the problem. It’s the wealthy that need to start playing ball. We’ve sacrificed ENOUGH.

America needs to bring back the idea of how a living wage benefits ALL of us. America needs to return to the notion of employing anyone regardless of education level. More importantly, we need to make Keynesian economics peppered with European-style democratic social safety nets the NORM and forever banish the notion of Friedman economics, which has failed EVERYwhere it’s been attempted. Otherwise, your economy will falter and continue on the same boom/bubble/CRASH nonsense every seven years, each crash worse than the last.

I mean, I don’t WANT to get the impression that posters on DU are droolingly hoping America is going to fail and smile as 1/3 to ½ of the country potentially becomes unemployed and desititute, but I don’t like what I’m seeing on here lately. I really am not. This doom-laden schadenfreude crap needs to end.

[FatDave]

25. Thank you.

:applause:

[SammyWinstonJack]

27. !!!

:applause:

[azmouse]

31. I wish I could rec your post.

Well said.

[EstimatedProphet]

32. Well put. Thank you.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

35. This should be an OP.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

68. It is now.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5030446

[Sheets of Easter]

39. Yeah, this post kind of rules!

:thumbsup:

[Bryn]

40. Your post makes sense

:applause:

[Greyhound]

41. I was all worked up and ready to slap this moran down, and then you go and do it first.

:applause::thumbsup::applause:

[HughBeaumont]

42. There's still time . . .

:7

[TwixVoy]

46. The truth hurts

Just watch what happens over the next year. We have all collectively dug this hole.

[LostinVA]

55. No, we "all" haven't -- blaming the victims is an EPIC FAIL

As the kids say.

[Greyhound]

64. "We" have all been dumped into a criminal system sot of our making and forced

to play by rules we didn't make that were specifically designed to ensure the originators always win.

Blaming the victim as you do in this post, may be the American way, but that does not make it right, nor does it make it our fault. That is not to say that we are not quite dim, or that we have been completely helpless, but again, on the scale of comparable negligence we are far from the most culpable.

ETA; When you wake up next year or the year after to find that you have had "all you worked for" taken from you, that won't be our fault either. Look at the ass you've been kissing and then look further up the chain and direct your scorn where it was earned.

[liberalhistorian]

77. Bullshit again. No one I know has done what you describe.

My parents sure as shit did nothing to deserve the hole that corporate and economic policies have put them in, thanks to his illness and necessary institutionalization.

Corporations, banks, the medical-pharma-insurance industries and failed political economic policies (I'm not going to say just republican policies, because Dems were and are in on it as well) are the major culprits here.

[dmr]

87. What she said!

So very true, and awfully bad for us all!

Corporations, banks, the medical-pharma-insurance industries and failed political economic policies (I'm not going to say just republican policies, because Dems were and are in on it as well) are the major culprits here.

[AlCzervik]

45. well done and much better than the op.

:thumbsup:

[closeupready]

48. Amen, Brother. You rock!

:hi: :yourock: :applause:

[LostinVA]

50. THANK YOU!

The OP pissed me off. I have NEVER lived beyond my means. We're in this mess because of fat cats, not the American public. I don't believe in blaming the victim.

And, I'll agree to sacrifice when the upper-most 1% do.

If I had 10K, I'd use 2k for a much needed vacation, and I'd put the rest right into my house on improvements.

[HughBeaumont]

52. Don't I know. Home improvement is where the bulk of my spare cash goes anyway.

That's not going to change in the near future.

It's just that this is the second such lengthy "blame the victim" post this week and nowhere does it blame the real perpetrators of this wealth transfer. NOwhere.

And to your second point . . . is the term "Suck it Up" only confined to the middle, working and poor classes? When do the upper crust start sharing the burden? Why is no one asking them when their lives STOP?

[LostinVA]

54. I'd love for it to be THEIR turn for a while, you know?

Most of our spare cash goes into Home Depot, etc. I could get all the repairs needed on our place for 10K, including the electrical, more insulation, and putting in a short driveway.

[HughBeaumont]

53. Correction:

Poor people ARE being forced from their homes due to an unforeseen amount of bad luck or a major illness.

:blush:

[SidneyCarton]

56. Agreed.

Some here think that the ruin of our nation will bring about renewal. They decieve themselves, ruin brings about ruin, destitution, starvation and wretchedness none of which are a firm foundation to build anything but a failed state.

[VOX]

57. SUPERB analysis and beautifully stated. Please give this life as a thread of its own!

This is by far the most comprehensive, cogent and just plain-old common sense piece I've seen written on this thorny issue.

Well done!

[earth mom]

58. Word.

:applause:

[Hello_Kitty]

69. Thank you soooo much, Hugh

I wanted to respond to the OP yesterday because it pissed me off so much but I couldn't find the words. You did it far more eloquently than I ever could. Thank you.

I should just add I find it unbelievably ironic that a person who works in retail is bashing people for spending money!

[Blue_Tires]

71. bloody brilliant

[Deja Q]

79. OMG, common sense!

:yourock:

Definitely a godsend to read, given the doom and gloom we all had to shovel through.

And, no, some of us are working on not becoming destitute and these UNMITIGATED SHITHEADS who spew their gloom and doom are the ones who really SHOULD become destitute. Some people around here think I need to "see someone". Hell, I'm nothing by comparison. I look for hope and rebuilding; these emo asswipes are the ones contributing to the problems.

Sorry to vent. I too am exceedingly angry against these emowanking filth. Though I'm a little more... upfront with my emotions for once.

[iamjoy]

85. Points Taken, Except...

Housing costs have gone up, but our houses are much bigger now than they were fifty years ago. It's economies of scale - isn't it? It's also a result of improved standards for safety. Those standards are a good thing if it means your house is less likely to have an electrical fire and more likely to stand up to a windstorm, but it does make it harder to buy. Even so, in the past fifty odd years, the average house size has doubled, and I don't think that's solely rich fat cats building ever bigger mansions. The McMansions were profitable because enough people were buying them.

Groceries have gone up, but it used to be we bought what was local and in season. You can get just about any produce item any time of year now. If grapes aren't in season in California now, we'll get them from Chile. Hey, that's great if you're craving Thompson grapes in March. I am sometimes amazed at the great variety at the grocery store, but I think we pay for that.

Many things have gone up in price, but the biggest jumps have been in Education and Healthcare. I can't speak as to why education has gone up so much, but the nasty reality of healthcare is not just the salaries of greedy insurance, hospital and pharmacuetical company executives and not just administrative costs of our inefficient system. It is not only the greedy trial lawyers, either. Oh sure, they contribute, but not entirely. When it comes to healthcare, we have made astounding breakthroughs in the past couple of generations. It really is amazing when you think about the progress we have made in treating heart disease, cancer, etc. But these treatments cost money.

The fact that technology and gadgets have come down in price in some ways encourages a throw away culture. I also think that relatively speaking, clothes are less expensive now. I don't sneer that even a poor person can have a DVD player. I'm glad that we all can have some entertainment and pleasure in our lives. Of course, the only way we can all afford that DVD player is that it was made somewhere else. Companies were able to lower costs by shipping jobs overseas rather than hiring Americans. That's the Wal-Mart model - helping poor people afford things while making other Americans poor. Oh, yeah, it would have been nice if the executives had cut their own salary and kept the jobs here. But, they didn't.

The horrible irony is all of the wonderful things in our society put us in this position. The greedy fat cats who helped bring us these wonderful things also "helped" us into the current crisis.

And some kind of help is the kind of help that helping's all about.
And some kind of help is the kind of help we all can do without.

[DS1]

28. My credit isn't maxed, I'm not defaulting on loans

I don't know why I'm lumped in with those people.

[LostinVA]

51. +1 -- me neither

[Deja Q]

80. Same here!

Mine is well under control, I've no problem getting loans, and my next one is for furthering education. OMG, trying to contribute. Does the OP have a concept of what that is, or is contribution by his standards being as gutless and hopeless as he is?

[NNN0LHI]

29. I think we should go back to when someone took out a home improvement loan ...

... the money actually has to go for home improvements like updating windows, new furnace, etc. Anything that actually increases the value of the house and makes it more energy efficient.

Home improvement loan money spent on vacations, electronics, etc. should not be allowed. You borrow 10 grand for home improvements you had better have ten grand worth of receipts for actual home improvements if the bank asks to see them.

That would be a good start. I bet a lot of people wish they had done it that way now.

Don

[carlyhippy]

30. yep, my 10,000 would be used to pay off a cc balance on one card

it's the accumulation of all the small balances off the other cards over the years, then I will have an extra 200.00 month to put towards groceries, so?

"So these fools say "Give me $10,000. I'll put it to my debt and never run up my credit card again I've learned my lesson!". BULL SHIT. Back in June 2008 with ultra high gas prices countless fools that financed massive Hummers all of a sudden found out getting a car with 5 miles to the gallon wasn't such a smart move. The media and people all over tried to unload them. Tried to get fuel efficient vehicles. It was all the buzz. Everyone learned their lesson right?

Gee gas goes back down, all of a sudden no one gives a shit about the environment or fuel efficient vehicles. Bookmark this post because gas prices will be right back where they were in 2008 in a few months and all of a sudden everyone will have claimed to have learned that lesson again."

I must be one of those "countless fools" who financed an SUV, and I did it last summer when gas was over 4.00 a gallon, but I need the 4WD SUV for the nasty winters here. I have no intention of unloading my vehicle, most people drive more miles a week than I do, I knew how much gas was at that time and budgeted for it,knowing full well this summer it will be probably even higher. Since gas has been under 2.00 a gallon, I still don't drive any more than I did last summer.

So, would I run my cc back up....I haven't done so in 2 years, highly unlikely...did I learn my lesson by buying a gas guzzling SUV? The only lesson I learned is I have completely changed my driving habits, so it was a good thing.

[Orrex]

37. If it'll make you feel better, I'll take your $10,000 as well

Anything I can do to help!

[jmg257]

44. Hmm.. so can I have your $10K then?

[TwixVoy]

47. You will never get 10K

This party is over. Look at bank stocks this morning. Citi has dropped another 15%. This is just the start of things. We will ALL be having to change our lifestyle. There is no way around it anymore.

[closeupready]

49. Wow, is it down that much AGAIN?

they are so gone.

[liberalhistorian]

78. The fat cat's downfall is ALL THEIR OWN FAULT.

PERIOD. That cannot be emphasized enough. I don't see them sacrificing and tightening up. I see them spending their "bailout" on bonuses, perks, lavish parties, retreats, art work, gadgets and gewgaws, getting furious if anyone dares to suggest they be accountable and then having their hands out for still more, more more more more more more of OUR MONEY. I see them and their political hacks demanding accountability from union and other workers, yet bristling at any suggestion of such accountability for THEM and THEIR workers.

[NuttyFluffers]

59. it's very "give a man a fish, he eats for a day..." isn't it?

sometimes retraining is needed -- sometimes for people to get new jobs, and sometimes for societies to restructure from a broken system. :)

[alcibiades_mystery]

62. It's not about consumption with zero production

It's because profit is essentially theft. You can't make more in the aggregate than you pay your workers. Gold won't save you. It's just as arbitrary as cash, and faces the same structural dilemma. You can ward off the falling rate of profit only so long.

[Political Heretic]

63. Generally I'm not a fan of the government handing people blank checks of money.

For the very reason that money an individual spends to put a down payment on a Hummer could have been spent by the government as part of funding for Community Development Block Grants or funding for housing or hunger programs.

For some of us who are near the very bottom - I am sitting on the poverty line - you can't fault us for dreaming of a 10k check with no strings. Many of us could use that money for things we desperately need, so of course we dream about it.

But yeah, overall I prefer that to government invest its money in programs rather than just through dough at people.

[On the Road]

72. I Would Really Help Your Argument

if it were more informed and less hyperbolic. You seem to be creating an economic argument based on stereotypes and caricatures bandied about on the internet, radio and discussion boards. A few comments:

"our entire economy has a HOUSE OF CARDS built on CONSUMPTION with ZERO PRODUCTION"

- US manufacturing was worth over $6.5 trillion in 2008.
- The biggest growth sector of our economy this decade has been investment in housing stock and office space, which is overbuilt and overvalued but hardly an indication of excessive consumption.

Why the hell would anyone in their right mind think borrowing MORE money, handing $10K out to people, and allowing them to further consume would help anything?

- Borrowing money paid great dividends during the Great Depression and during WWII.
Depends what the alternative is. Avoiding a repeat of the 1930s is worth some fiscal stimulus.
- You seem to equate consumption with unecessary or excessive consumption. When the term is used economically it does not have this connotation.

If the rich are pulling out of US Dollars they know what is coming down the pipe.

- If that is true, why has the dollar been gaining strength for months now?
- Billionaires are not all on the same page. Warren Buffet is putting back into selected US corporations. He may be wrong too.

I have made no more than $25,000/year the past several years. I have zero debt.

- Wise use of debt is one of the keys to wealth. If at the beginning of your working life you had gone deeply into debt to afford the best house you could, you would probably be sitting on a lot of equity.

Had the feds not jumped in to the market at certain key moments last year many of us would be moving in to those boxes right now.

What? Now borrowing money to intervene in the markets is good?

-----------

It could go on. Probably not worth it.

[liberalhistorian]

74. I really, really, seriously hope you never have a major or

long-term illness. Because you will find that you will not only not have the money to pay for it, even with insurance (and God help you WITHOUT insurance), but it will ruin you financially for the rest of your life. Your credit will be trashed because you couldn't pay the exorbitant medical bills fast enough to suit the bloodsucking health care "system", (they will take whatever liquid assets you have and put liens on everything else, they will garnish your wages, they will never give up on squeezing every last dime from you no matter how sick you are), which means you will have trouble finding and/or keeping a job, renting an apartment, getting credit for anything, etc., etc.

And I hope you never suddenly lose a job and have difficulty finding anything else, even at much lower pay scale, or have a child/spouse with a major illness or injury (see above), or are unable to work due to a major illness/injury, or go through a divorce, etc., etc. It's gonna get mighty cold for you if you do. Your misplaced righteous anger won't keep you warm at all. And you'll find out that the very good people you're denigrating now will be your only friends in that case,'cause the corporatocracy and the beauracracy won't give a shit. In fact, policies and laws will be stacked against you bigtime.

[Deja Q]

81. More common sense; another very worthwhile response to a surprisingly good OP.

Sometimes the OP is so dire that these thoughtful sorts of responses actually make it worthwhile.