Quotes from Two Historical Figures and Three Questions – A Game

[Time for change]

Quote from historical figure # 1

Whether 10,000 Russian females drop from exhaustion while building an anti-tank ditch interests me only insofar as the anti-tank ditch gets finished for {our country’s} sake. We shall never be brutal and heartless where it is not necessary – obviously not. We {citizens of our country}, the only people in the world who have a decent attitude towards animals, will also try to take a decent attitude towards these human animals. But it is a crime against our own blood to worry about them …

Quotes from historical figure # 2

I think we’re going to be obliged to fight a regional war, whether we want to or not. It may turn out to be a war to remake the world.

They cannot feel secure so long as we are there, for our very existence – our existence, not our politics – threatens their legitimacy… They just attack us in order to survive, just as we must destroy them to advance our historic mission.

I think the level of casualties is secondary.

New leaders with an iron will are required to root out the corruption and either reestablish a virtuous state, or to institute a new one… If we bask in false security and drop our guard, the rot spreads, corrupting the entire society. Once that happens, only violent and extremely unpleasant methods can bring us back to virtue.

Everlasting peace is a dream, not even a pleasant one; war is a necessary part of God’s arrangement of the world… Without war the world would deteriorate into materialism.

Note: Each of these quotes are from the same person but not the same speech.

My three questions

1) Who are the above quotes from, or more generally, what group do (did) these two men belong to?

2) What is the difference (or similarities) between the two quotes (or series of quotes) or the two men who are quoted? (I’m talking about deep rather than superficial similarities or differences)

3) Why is question # 2 important for us to think about?


My purpose in posting this

My answers to these three questions are written below (the first answer being a factual one, and the next two answers being my opinions). I request that you think about the questions some before looking at my answers because I think that peoples’ unbiased responses to the questions would be interesting.

I came across these quotes in the course of reading two different books this morning. Shortly afterwards I was struck by the relationship between them, and as I thought about that relationship it occurred to me that this is something that Americans (other people also, but especially Americans I think) would do very well to think a lot about, as I believe that this issue has profound implications for the current situation in which we Americans find ourselves.












Answer to question # 1

The first quote is from Heinrich Himmler. Suffice it to say that he was near the very top of the Nazi hierarchy under Hitler. I found the quote while reading “Evil – An Investigation”, by Lance Morrow.

The second series of quotes is from Michael Ledeen, one of today’s most prominent Neoconservatives. Among the things that he is alleged to have done are: conspired with rightist rogue Italian intelligence agents against Italy’s democratic government; arranged arms for hostages deals in connection with the Iran-Contra scandal during the Reagan administration; and participated in the Niger uranium forgeries. I found those quotes in “It CAN Happen Here – Authoritarian Peril in the Age of Bush”, by Joe Conason.


My answer to question # 2

I believe that the above quotes by Himmler and Ledeen are strikingly similar and indicate that the two men have many very similar personality characteristics. They are both obviously war mongers, ardent and virulent nationalists (I would add “racists”, but I don’t want to get into a semantic argument), and self-righteous authoritarians. In their enthusiasm for war they obviously are totally lacking in any sense of empathy for other people – at least for other people whom they consider to be differentiated from those people whom they would designate as being human. Basically, they feel that it doesn’t matter how many “other” people have to die or be permanently wounded, as long as it serves their purposes or the purposes of their group.

Yet they justify their philosophy and actions through claims that they are superior to other people, whom they obviously consider to be expendable – a claim that is very common among people like them and the groups that they associate with. And not only do they not feel that such thoughts and actions are immoral, but they consider themselves to exude the highest levels of morality. I would call them “evil”, though I recognize that “evil” is a very controversial term, and probably nobody knows quite what it means. But “evil” or not, they are certainly among the most dangerous of men the world has known.

Thus, I feel that the similarities among the two sets of quotes are much more striking than their differences. I feel that there is just one substantive difference between them: Himmler is more blunt and obvious about his racism (or whatever you want to call it) than Ledeen. I do not believe that this is due to any substantive difference between the two men – rather, I believe that it is due to the circumstances of their time and place. In Nazi Germany in the 1930s and early 40s, that kind of talk was perfectly acceptable. In today’s United States, that kind of talk is not acceptable – so those who wish to act out their genocidal impulses must resort more to code words and rationalizations than the Nazis did. It is the difference between Nazis justifying preemptive war on the basis of the superiority of the German people and neoconservatives justifying preemptive war on the basis of non-existent “weapons of mass destruction”.


My answer to question # 3

I have thought a great deal about why so many Americans are willing to accede to unjustified wars. Yes, I know that most Americans now are against the Iraq War and that towards the end of the Vietnam War most Americans were against that too. But the primary reason for that is that the rate of American casualties became too high and it became obvious that we couldn’t “win” those wars. In other words, it was not the immorality of those wars that caused most Americans to be against them.

Why is it that most Americans are not against most unjust and immoral wars, as long as it is their country that is the perpetrator? I believe that the reason for this phenomenon is that most Americans have such a strong belief in the morality and righteousness of the “American cause” that it is exceedingly difficult for them to believe that their country would ever do terrible things in their name. Indeed, it is so difficult for them to believe that that they typically refuse to believe it no matter how great the evidence.

A perfect example of this is when Senator Durbin compared our treatment of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay with the treatment of prisoners in Nazi concentration camps and Communist Gulags. The uproar against that statement was so great that Durbin eventually felt forced to apologize for it, which he did. The issue was so politically charged that Durbin received virtually no support from his fellow Democrats. Even his fellow Democratic Senator from Illinois had only this to say in his defense:

We have a tendency to demonize and jump on and make mockery of each other across the aisle, and that is particularly pronounced when we make mistakes. Each and every one of us is going to make a mistake once in a while...and what we hope is that our track record of service, the scope of how we've operated and interacted with people, will override whatever particular mistake we make.

Note that Senator Obama felt it necessary to use the word “mistake” three times in his “defense” of Durbin. But what Durbin said was not a “mistake”, except in the sense that it was a political blunder. What Durbin said was accurate, courageous and, in my opinion, necessary. He did not claim that our treatment of prisoners occurred on the same scale as in the Nazi concentration camps or the Communist Gulags. They had millions of such prisoners, compared to our thousands – a massive difference in scale. And maybe the treatment of most of their prisoners was somewhat worse than our treatment of our prisoners. But how much worse can it be, given that we have tortured to death many of our prisoners? Anyhow, Durbin’s basis of comparison related to specific details taken from eye-witness FBI accounts, which he read on the Senate floor.

So why do I feel that this is so extremely important? My point is that too many Americans have such a strong (and misplaced) belief in the righteousness of the American cause that there is always the strong potential that they will be way too accepting of things like preemptive wars based on false pretenses and the abuse and torture of our prisoners. Consequently, when men like George W. Bush and Dick Cheney come to power, too many Americans fail to see the tyrannical nature of their regimes.

Unjustified war? Widespread torture of prisoners? Surely those things can’t happen in the United States of America!

Refusal or failure of Americans to see when their country is in the wrong poses a toxic and dangerous state of affairs. Because of this failure, men like George Bush and Dick Cheney are enabled to do what they have done and are continuing to do. And if this continues for much longer it will surely result in the destruction of our country, if not the whole world.

[JackRiddler]

1. k & r

Himmler was obvious, it could only have been him as the head of the SS slave labor programs, or else Goebbels. For number two I considered Perle and then guessed Ledeen.

You are getting at something very important - something that even has ramifications here at DU. What right does the crew who raped Iraq have to "fix" it by remaining in-country, as though there is *anything* they could do to make things better, as though the whole idea of the invasion was anything other than to destroy that nation in the first place? Yet you will find many Democrats who have bought the logic, and argue for maintaining the occupation "until" a stability is achieved that is impossible until the occupation ends, and that can never ever be legitimate.

Greater minds than ours have been grappling with the attachment of people to irrational abstract group identity, to the death if need be, for much longer than we have been around. And what is the answer to this fatal blindness?

[Time for change]

5. It's very interesting that you make that point

I've argued that exact same point several times, including in something that I posted a few days ago:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=464773

Or more accurately, I used a quote from a book I had just read to make that point, which I felt was stated better than I'd ever seen it:

But even if we set aside the question of (Bush’s) motives, always subject to dispute, we must confront the bizarre logic of saying that the people who have devastated Iraq… who have failed at even the most basic responsibilities as an occupying power, who are the source of the instability in Iraq today, are the only ones who can protect Iraqis from hunger and anarchy. In no other area of our lives do we accept such logic, but when it comes to the crimes of empire, we are supposed to continually ignore history. The “doctrine of good intentions exculpates all crimes.” The reality, however, is that the U.S. occupation, rather than being a source of stability in Iraq, is the major source of instability and ongoing suffering.

But I got the impression that not many DUers agreed.

"And what is the answer to that fatal blindness?"

I certainly don't have it, but that's what I was thinking of when I posted this OP. I was wondering if some people might notice the similarity between the two sets of quotes and then be shocked to learn that they were comparing a Nazi with someone closely associated with the current leadership of our country. Of course, I doubt that many DUers are blind to this issue. But still, there are a number of them who consider it "over the top" to compare a current day American (or anyone for that matter) to the Nazi leadership.

[Greyhound]

2. The ruling class does not view the rest of us as anything other than means to their ends.

That much is plain and has always been true. As for the Amerikan mindset, I think this pretty well sums it up;

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."

-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

Patriotism, nationalism, manifest destiny, the will of god, whatever you wish to call it, used in conjunction with fear, are always the primary tools used to delude and direct the unthinking to the goals set by the ruling class.

[Time for change]

8. Yes, that pretty well sums it up

The ruling class, especially as manifested in our corporate news media, is pulling our strings. I really believe that this is getting very similar to Nazi Germany in the 1930s -- but too many Americans think that we're immune to that kind of thing.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

3. In my arguments in the dungeon, there is a blind spot

in admitting the parallels between this regime, and historically malevolent regimes this world has previously encountered. Your comparisons portray such a disturbing scenario that the mind for many, overloads, and denial becomes a necessary safety mechanism. The sheer amount of transgressions against the people here, coupled with the depravity of many of the actions, has caused a shift in the ability to discern truth. MSM's complicity in creating perceptions of reality, without actually reporting in a (relatively)unbiased manner, has intensified the anxiety of dealing with competing realities.

The doublespeak is prevalent. We either break free of its grip very soon, or we can kiss any form of democracy in the future goodbye.

[Time for change]

6. Do you mean to say that even many of the participants in dungeon discussions don't see the parallel?

I would have thought that they, of all people, would see it. A major reason that I posted this was the possibility that it might help some people to see it.

I certainly agree that the corporate media has been complicit in this. How much of that is their wish to maintain the status quo, and how much is due to their own inability to see and understand what is happening is a question I have thought about but can't answer. I think it is very hard to tell the difference.

[lizbitchwitchy]

4. In my opinion

This is exactly the way in which we can help free others from the deep sleep they seem to be in. Asking questions and requiring them to think for themselves. This is a good way to begin a process that is long over due.

I guessed someone in the Nazi party who was experimenting on people in the prisons or whatever - but couldn't think of anyone in particular.

I figured it was someone in the neo-con camp but also didn't know the quote

The similiarities are the superior attitudes and the indifference to suffering
and they both understand how the public can be manipulated easily - and without much worry. Both delusional ideas of themselves - decent - and doing god's work for instance

It's important for us to think about because when we hear it coming from a historical figure that we have known to do severe damage to a group of people or mankind - we automatically hear the negative and what we know the people to be - their negative qualities and their monsterous ideas. To understand that and then hear ourselves and our leaders use the same sort of reasoning - we can then recognize the red flags as they fly and hopefully we have not become the same docile and complacent and simpled down dummies as the people who allowed the Nazis to do what they did - but I no longer know what to think about us in America - we are all taking so long to wipe the sleep out of our eyes and so many people are dying in our name and with our money and still there is way too many people who support these idiots.

There are so many issues at the forefront of this battle we fight - voting systems, media monopolies, torture policies, two illegal, unecessary and unprovoked wars (ok so Afghanastan was not illegal but still immorral and look what we have done over there - made another huge mess) and a third one just waiting to be declared; the corruption in our halls of Congress and the executive branch - the polarization in this country - the freakin silence of the religious leaders - the 9/11 truth - the treason - the lack of justice and the treaties and conventions broken - the many many problems all intertwined and all very critical to solving the problem completely but literally blocked on so many levels that chasing our own tail and running around in circles is obviously not working. I fear for this country and what is about to happen to us. This is truley a sad sad time - and as I look around at my own ignorance over the years and my own belief that this two party farce was truley a free election system - and my great country this and that - I am ashamed at what I was dumb enough to buy from the history classes in our public school system and even in our higher education system. I feel stupid but I no longer care to be uninformed - but I fear it's too late for us to do anything - there isn't enough time to change the minds to stop what is happening - but we all have some collective hell of a huge karmic debt to pay (forget the financial ones) May god be with us - and I am not even religious - but what we need here is nothing short of a miracle.

[Time for change]

7. You've caught the essence of what I was thinking but failed to put into words

when we hear it coming from a historical figure that we have known to do severe damage to a group of people or mankind - we automatically hear the negative and what we know the people to be - their negative qualities and their monsterous ideas. To understand that and then hear ourselves and our leaders use the same sort of reasoning - we can then recognize the red flags as they fly and hopefully we have not become the same docile and complacent and simpled down dummies as the people who allowed the Nazis to do what they did..."

Yep, we've got a hell of a lot of problems in this country to overcome.

Here's something we can do, that I posted a couple days ago:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x496184

[lizbitchwitchy]

13. I wish that would solve the problem

It would be a start and I can think of about 100 other places to start too but they are like chasing our own tail at this point.

Honestly, until the masses wake up in this country - from recognizing that the two party political game we play called democracy is a farce to the truth about 9/11 - and the torture policies are absolutely wrong. It amazes me that people debat that. It's wrong PERIOD!

I think we have missed the boat to be honest with you. It's truley sad and heartbreaking but preparing for survival is the only thing left to do besides discuss things like this one public places where there are many that need to see what is really going on. Every person you can help in opening their eyes a little wider the better, if you ask me. But since you didn't I will stop there.

Good post though....It really has me thinking about ways to communicate with others. Thanks.

[Time for change]

16. Yes, we have missed the boat

But there may be other boats coming, and as you say, if we can help to open peoples' eyes maybe we won't miss the next boat.

Seriously, impeachment is one great way to open peoples' eyes. If impeachment hearings are initiated against Bush they will have to be televised, and I believe it will be a great eye opener for a great many people.

Keep thinking about ways to communicate with people about this. I agree, there's probably nothing that is more important. :thumbsup:

[lizbitchwitchy]

18. I appreciate your hope

Because without it, we have nothing.

Impeachment would most certainly help with our reputation in the international community.

I often post on an international board and they despise Americans there for not doing enough. They think we are dumbed down and still completely lost. In a lot of respects they are right but we are the victims of propaganda, our own educations system (even the higher education system) as well as mind control. It seems to me we live in a carefully orchestrated society devised to mislead us and it is only now just beginning to be realized for what it is. Although the blacks, minorities and some women have recognized it for sometime now. For obvious reasons.

There are some (although very few) democrats I still believe in - but for the most part, I don't think of them like I used to. Kuchnich and McKinney (although she is out, unfortunately) and few others. I think we should just do away with the parties and let people just run on their own merits. That would solve a lot of problems. Either that or we need some top running third parties to start threatening the other parties.

Anyway, thanks again.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

19. needs more light

:kick:

[WinkyDink]

9. I was going to say Stalin and Hitler. I got the first one wrong. HAHA!

[Time for change]

12. Well, they were both a lot like Stalin and Hitler IMO

[JackRiddler]

10. kick

[Time for change]

11. Most Americans, and even some DUers, consider it "over the top" to compare Americans with Nazis

It's as if they think that Americans could never commit the same kinds of evil acts that the Nazis did.

But what reason is there to believe that? Are Americans so superior to Germans that we are not capable of commiting or allowing the kinds of atrocities that were commited in their names during the 1930s and early 1940s?

We have a Constitution to protect against those kinds of things. But little by little over the past 6 years that constitution is being ripped to shreds, and most people aren't complaining about it. And already we have Nazi like acts being commited in our name, with the systematic torture of hundreds or thousands of our prisoners. Yes, it's on a smaller scale than what the Nazis practiced. But then, the Nazis started out on a small scale too.

God, I wish our elected representatives would recognize Bush and Cheney for what they are, give voice to that recognition and treat them accordingly.

[Bluedogvoter]

14. It is over the top.

We may be capable of these atrocities but it doesn't make it true because you are mad at the Bush administration.

I don't like Bush either, but I don't think its fair to compare him to the true atrocities the Nazis performed on this world.

Let his bad deeds stand for themselves and let the injustices of the Nazis do the same.

[Time for change]

15. But why do you say that?

I don't compare Bush to the Nazis because I'm mad at him. I do it because I believe that it's a legitimate comparison that Americans would do well to recognize.

You say that the comparison is unfair, but you don't say why. I admit that the scale is different. The Nazis had millions in their torture camps, and we have only thousands.

You don't consider what Bush has done as "atrocities"? Why not?

Do you believe that the invasion on false pretenses of a nation that posed no threat to us, involving the use of bombing and chemical weapons on civilian populations, and leading to over 600 thousand civilian deaths is an atrocity?

Do you believe that the holding indefinitely of thousands of prisoners without bringing charges against them, denying them prisoner of war status, yet not allowing them access to counsel or to contest their incarceration in any way, and being subject to repeated torture over an indefinite period of time is an atrocity? If not, why not?

[Karenina]

17. Hoping for a reply...

[Time for change]

20. Me too -- I think that this is a very important issue

Americans readily recognize Nazis as being very bad -- a group to be condemned and worthy of going to war against. Many say that it could never happen here what happened to Nazi Germany.

Yet when they see similar behavior among their own leaders they fail to see that behavior for what it is. The behavior of the Bush/Cheney regime is not just bad -- it's terrible, and it poses a great danger to the stability and peace of the world.

This is very worthy of discussion IMO. It's one thing to assert that there is nothing comparable in Bush's behavior to that of the Nazis, but it's completely a different matter to try to explain the difference.

My hope in posting this OP was that some people who would reject any comparison between George Bush and Nazis or between Americans and Nazis would read the two quotes, not knowing who they were from, and would fail to see a substantive difference between them -- then, when they saw that one was a high level Nazi and the other was an American with very close ties to the leaders of our country, that would break a barrier for some people.

Thanks for giving me another chance to rant about this. :)

[Karenina]

21. There are many elderly people in my 'hood

who survived the war, some under cover for obvious reasons. These people have been staunchly PRO-AMERICAN for DECADES. Watching that change over the past few years has been quite an education. When an 80 year-old German says of the U.S. (I paraphrase, using easily understood American vernacular) "Been there, done that, I'm too old for this shit. It's YOUR problem now" I figure it's WAY PAST TIME to sit up and listen.

[Time for change]

22. I would be most interested to see one of those people give a talk on this subject

As a matter of fact, I'd like to just talk with one of those people. I'll bet that they have some very useful insights.

[Karenina]

23. I am such a "rich" woman

having had the opportunity to pick so many "old" brains in casual converstion on the street corner, at the Backerei or in the Kiosk. The WDR has archived MANY interviews. The Germans are determined to keep their stories alive. I recall seeing and interview of a dark-haired, 80-something who cried as she recalled being in a classroom where the blondes were paraded in front of them as the nation's future. She NEVER got over it.

My next door neighbor, Herr Fassbender, died recently :cry: but NOT before he gave me a serious earful. He was SUCH A PIP and sharp as a tack. Would that I had a recording device as we stood on the sidewalk.
He spoke hoch deutsch until he got to the meaty parts and then slipped into our local dialect. HIS TAKE, the use of language to convey a feeling and the fact that he was SO OPEN with me, an Ausländerin (we got along well from the day we met) will remain forever with me.

[MikeH]

24. The Himmler quote is also in Alice Miller's book For Your Own Good

The Himmler quote is in http://www.nospank.net/fyog9.htm#values">this section of her book; her entire book is http://www.nospank.net/fyog.htm">here.

In the http://www.nospank.net/fyog5.htm">first chapter of her book she introduces what she calls "poisonous pedagogy" by quoting from child rearing manuals used in the 1700's and 1800's, and particularly used in Germany in the late 1800's, i.e around the time when Hitler was born. These quotes illustrate poisonous pedagogy in its most blatant form. The methods advocated are very reminiscent of methods used in totalitarian dictatorships. In the present time the poisonous pedagogy is usually not as blatant, except as advocated among some fundamentalist Christians.

Her main thesis, which she advances in her books and her http://www.alice-miller.com">other http://www.naturalchild.com/alice_miller">websites, is that the abuse and humiliations inflicted on a child, which a child accepts and does not question, lay at the roots of further violence when the child becomes an adult. She particularly expounds on this in the case of the Nazi perpetrators and has an entire http://www.nospank.net/fyog13.htm">chapter on Hitler.