Probably the most important video I ever posted. (IMHO). The biggest paradigm shift in my life.

[BigBearJohn]

Sorry to be so dramatic but this video completely knocked me on my ass.
It may or may not be new to you, but this is the first I heard of this. I can
only say that it made me realize how much I've taken for granted all my life.
Having now watched it, it has caused a major paradigm shift in my life.

The video truly provided me a deeper understanding of what really is happening
in the world's economic crisis. I'm surprised the government doesn't try to
squash it. To me, it's that explosive.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9050474362583451279">CLICK-HERE

[rollingrock]

1. Looks interesting

I bookmarked it for later viewing.

[earth mom]

67. This video is way better and says the same thing:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912&hl=en

(I reposted it here at the top of the thread so people can see it.)

[moodforaday]

70. I don't know about "way better"

Zeitgeist tries to cover too much, and is after all a libertarian production (not that the left and the likbertarians don't have some common causes). But "Money as Debt" is concise, factual and at least tries to stay politically neutral - on these counts it's "way better" than Zeitgeist.

[earth mom]

76. That's your opinion & I'm entitled to mine. IMO, Money as Debt is boring in comparison. nt

[crikkett]

103. See you know, when you post YouTube videos you should also post the title of the vid.

I've been burned by disturbing and not safe for work stuff and so it should just become etiquette.

Just a thought.

[moodforaday]

112. I agree 100% about posting the title

but I was not the poster who advertized this video (or any other YouTube video in recent memory, for that matter).

Just a thought :)

[ORDagnabbit]

2. been trying for awhile to get everyone to at least watch it... btw heres another for you

same vein

www.freedomtofascism.com

I hand both dvd's out to friends as presents and just hope for the best.

[BigBearJohn]

3. Thanks! Can you imagine if everyone in the USA watched and understood the info in this video? Wow.

[ORDagnabbit]

4. judging from the response I get here I think most people actively dont want to know.

wierd...

[BigBearJohn]

5. Part of me wanted to remain ignorant of this. Truth is hard to face sometimes.

It is so incredible it makes it invisible to the masses.

[BigBearJohn]

6. I had to watch it several times to let the info sink in. I was up to 4am last night watching it.

[AndrewP]

108. Thanks for posting this. I found it to be a very interesting video

I honestly don't trust the Government at all, and really never have. But this is very interesting and makes me wonder about things I never even wondered about before.

[Cerridwen]

9. Don't want to know or are "afraid" to post agreement.

See my post #8 before it vanishes.

[BigBearJohn]

23. Yeah, well, I was apprehensive about posting it. Amazes me they haven't knocked it off the internet.

Somehow or another, truth survives.
I may not.
But truth always pops up its magnificent head somewhere.
I'm getting old anyway, so if they want to knock me off, let 'em.

[Cerridwen]

24. I'm right there with you.

These days, the worst they can do is kill me.

And?

Oops. Cynical, rather than weird, me, just popped up.

There are none so free as those who have nothing left to lose. (Or loose) LOL

Janis Joplin and a writer for M.A.S.H.

[ContinentalOp]

30. That would be Kris Kristofferson by the way. -nt-

[wildbilln864]

62. Yes Aaron Russo's excellent documentary! Thanks! (edited)

watch it here! :hi:

[Bobbie Jo]

7. K&R

[Cerridwen]

8. The government?

I've watched this video posted to DU where it has been deleted, locked, shunted off to the 9/11 dungeon and ignored.

Only with the latest outrage from the financial industry have people started to step away from the first stage of grief (as posted in GD today) of denial to give it more than a passing thought.

This video, as well as freedomtofascism (I saw posted above) has not been given more than a passing glance by those who insist that the capatistic framework (and attendent values) in which we live, might, just might, maybe a little, not be what it's all cracked up to be.

Good luck with your thread.

In before the lock, delete, move or ridicule.

Note: no, I can't provide links to previous posts about this because they've been locked, deleted, or shunted off to the dungeon and they aren't always posted with the same "search terms." And, I didn't bookmark them because I wasn't making a court case or preparations for a future post.

Welcome to the club, btw. :hi:

[BigBearJohn]

11. Well, whatever happens, happens. It made perfect sense to me.Thanks for your kind words.

If people want to ridicule me for posting it, that's ok.
I have a tough skin. I've been locked for far less
important posts. Though, to be honest, I can't imagine
why this would be locked.

[RagAss]

12. Thanks for posting !

The word Epiphany comes to mind.

[BigBearJohn]

20. Yup. That describes perfectly what I went through after watching it.

Still, it IS hard to face.
Talk about David & Goliath! Sheesh.

[Cerridwen]

14. It addresses "religion's" role in the whole mess.

Can't attack "religion."

It's the American way!

/snark

You'll be okay. This video and the other mentioned, have some interesting ideas and facts in them. I can not stand Aaron Russo (may he rest in whatever he considered peace). But that doesn't mean he didn't bring some good information to the fore (freedomtofascism).

Both videos challenge the status quo and our way of thinking of the status quo. There are many gatekeepers of the status quo; many don't even know they are such. If you've not read Howard Zinn's People's History of the US, please consider doing so. It will help you to identify gatekeepers and gatekeeper behavior.

[Narkos]

10. Great vid, definitely demystifies the banking system

[ShortnFiery]

13. Thank-you. Excellent video. n/t

[alittlelark]

15. I tried to get hubby (Stanford MBA) to watch it last year

He couldn't do it.

He is in the process of cognitive dissonance.

I am hoping for a good outcome.

[BigBearJohn]

17. It's hard to face. No doubt. Each in his own time. It sure removed the fog for me though.

[Greyhound]

16. This has been around for awhile, but I'm glad you've found it now.

In the words of Henry Ford (Hardly the radical liberal), "It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning."

[Cerridwen]

18. P.S. Have you checked out my sig line?

I've been "wearing" it for a while now. I'm tempted to ask, were this the Lounge, do you think it makes my posts look fat?

:rofl:

I'm in a weird mood. :evilgrin:

[BigBearJohn]

19. Cool.

[MGB67]

21. We had friends drop by today for coffee

... the conversation started with the general mess of the economy and ended with an embracing of the barter system and community gardens. REAL things, REAL value.... things that we could eat and skills we could trade.

But how he hell can we pay off our debt and be free of that corrupt house of cards?

Damn.

[BigBearJohn]

22. Thank God for the internet. Group consciousness is improving. Education is the key.

Thank you for relating your story of your friends dropping by today.
It truly inspired me. "True Value" -- Jeesh... what a concept.
That's what our country needs to return to.

TRUE VALUE.

Thanks MGB67

p.s. I had a MGA58 when I was 18. Then an MGA59 when 38.

[bertman]

98. Not to mention how do you pay off property taxes when using the barter system.

[cottonseed]

25. Shows that we are at the precipice.

We will not change society, it will be ugly watching us create more money (debt) to keep this system going. This thing has to go down burning to change this.

[babylonsister]

26. From 2007. Great video. Thanks, BBJ! I will watch the end

soon! :loveya:

[BigBearJohn]

27. It gets better towards the end. They tie it all together.

:hug:

[HubertHeaver]

28. We were aware, in the 1970's, during the Nixon oil crisis, that the

world monetary system was nothing more than a 'daisey chain' of virtually worthless loans that nearly collapsed when the arab states formed OPEC and dramatically raised the price of crude. OPEC was collecting increased amounts of money for crude oil but had neither the means to return that much money to circulation nor the understanding that they should. There were stories at the time about how the Arabs had to be educated very quickly as to the true nature of global money and agree to the creative ways to quickly recirculate the money before the system crashed.

You will want some links. I don't have any, I am working from personal memory which does not link to the internet. If you are able to do historical research from original sources (hard copy from a hard library) you can independently verify the video.

[scheming daemons]

29. To be fair, there are some criticisms of this video that make valid points

http://bruno-rants.blogspot.com/2008/07/money-as-debt-as-fact-or-fiction.html

http://webskeptic.wikidot.com/money-as-debt

http://studimonetari.org/articoli/moneyasdebtcritique.html

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Embassy/1154/flaherty.html




You also need to know something else.


StormFront and other White Supremacist groups are using this video as a way to gin up anger at the "zionist jew bankers" that they say run the world.



Don't be duped. Hear counterarguments and THEN decide if you believe this video 100%.

[BigBearJohn]

31. Opinions. Opinions. Opinions. I will have to study a lot more data to refute all the opinions.

Still, the more convoluted they can make the subject, the easier it is to hide the monstrosity.
Who do you know who has the time or the patience to sort through all this bullshit for the
few nuggets of truth?


Greater minds than mine have given credence to this video.
Until I can sort all the details, I'll go with this version.

[BigBearJohn]

35. Here's what Elizabeth Kucinich says:

Elizabeth J. Kucinich, monetary reform activist partner of
Congressman, and US Presidential aspirant, Dennis Kucinich (D-OH)

"I have worked for a long time looking into monetary reform and after 10 years, finally someone has produced a DVD entitled "Money as Debt". It is a fabulous fun yet powerful introduction to the issue of monetary reform. It's the best over view I have seen so far; the best by far. ESSENTIAL! Everyone should watch it!

The topic of DebtMoney is THE issue of our times. It forms the basis to every nation's areas of core material and spiritual concerns such as economic development, employment and environmental sustainability.

If only government officials, civil society organizations, environmental groups, unions and well meaning international development strategists trying to eradicate poverty really understood this topic... the world would be a much better place.

Only 47 minutes long, this DVD is ideal for public education in schools, colleges and universities, as well as individual or family viewing, with lots of juicy re-useable quotes from prominent bankers, economists and presidents."

http://paulgrignon.netfirms.com/MoneyasDebt/reviews.htm

(it also lists a whole bunch of other reviewers)

[wroberts189]

44. Respectfully ..Can you give me one or two ?

that is a lot of links ..it will take me some time.

[scheming daemons]

46. See post #45

My brother, the banker, says it better than any of those links.

[hfojvt]

53. that's what I wondered, are they pushing for the gold standard or something?

I only watched 10 minutes of the 47 minutes and I do not think they are accurate. The fractional reserve system does not create money out of thin air. These people seem to think they should be able to have their cake and eat it too. That the money can be lent out and also kept in the vault. Whereas the fractional reserve system is just a FRACTION of deposits which is not lent out. Money is not created with a loan, except in economic theory. I think the loan only circulates the money that was already in the vault.

The National Bank, however, or Treasury CAN create money out of nothing simply by running their printing presses, but I don't think that has been a huge problem in the last 60 years or so. That is not what recently destabilized the banking system.

[wroberts189]

59. But you see thats the point...

The banks don't print it ... the Mint does it at their bidding. Currently at near zero %

That is the main problem with the documentary ... they simplified it so much they leave out important parts so you can not see the big picture.

[razors edge]

97. The gold standard was manipulated as well.

The spot price today still is for paper gold. Try going down to the coin shop and buying an ounce worth of coins for the Kitco spot, they will laugh at you then probably tell you they have no numismatic coins.

The banks can and do create money out of thin air, so to speak. The only thing that backs the dollar is the ability of the Federal government to tax the future wages of the American people.

That is how they secure the loan to the Federal Reserve. The Federal Reserve does not give the US government gold to deposit in the treasury and issue notes against. The Treasury prints a bond, gives it to the fed as a marker against Federal Reserve notes that the Treasury will print and give out for goods and services. The Fed produced nothing, gave nothing, and started charging interest to be paid back with taxpayer dollars immediately.

Therein lies the obvious problem with fiat currencies and why they all have or will fail eventually.

If the Federal Reserve were given back every dollar the treasury ever produced, what do they pay the interest with?

The ultimate ponzi scheme.

[ORDagnabbit]

69. how bout if we believe what the federal reserve actually writes and produces?

Chicago Federal Reserve, "Modern Money Mechanics" (1963), originally produced and distributed free by the Public Information Center of the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago, Chicago, Illinois,
New York Federal Reserve, "I Bet You Thought" (1977) Public Information Department, Federal Reserve Bank of New York, 33 Liberty Street, New York, New York 10045 (free)




MODERN MONEY MECHANICS, Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago page 3: "The actual process of money creation takes place in the banks."

MODERN MONEY MECHANICS, Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago page 6 "If business is active, the banks with excess reserves probably will have opportunities to loan the $9,000. Of course, they do not really pay out loans from the money they receive as deposits. If they did this, no additional money would be created. What they do when they make loans is to accept promissory notes in exchange for credits to the borrowers' transaction accounts. Loans (assets) and deposits (liabilities) both rise by $9,000. Reserves are unchanged by the loan transactions. But the deposit credits constitute new additions to the total deposits of the banking system." –

I BET YOU THOUGHT… - Federal Reserve Bank of New York page 27
"Banks create money by monetizing debt." For example, if the Fractional Reserve is 10%, a bank that has on deposit $1 million (10% of $10 million) can loan an additional $9 million, money the banks don't actually have- they've created money!
Checkbook money is ‘created’ by currency deposits. Commercial banks create checkbook money whenever they grant a loan, simply by adding new deposit dollars to accounts on their books in exchange for a borrower’s IOU."

MONEY, BANKING & MONETARY POLICY – Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas page 9 "It may not seem to make much sense, but banks actually ‘create’ money when they lend it"

MONEY, BANKING & MONETARY POLICY – Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas page 11 "Banks actually create money when they lend it. Because the loan becomes a new deposit, just like a paycheck does"

here is modern money mechanics in free .PDF form as written and distributed by the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago in 1963. read it and then ask yourself...

do I believe my lying eyes?

http://www.truthsetsusfree.com/ModernMoneyMechanics.pdf

here is some quotes from other federal reserve publications.

http://livingdebtfree.info/fed_publications.pdf

and the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas

http://www.dallasfed.org/educate/everyday/ev9.html

[Runcible Spoon]

71. That is a total canard.

Those groups use all sorts of legitimate sources of information and twist them around to fit their sick agendas; that doesn't reflect on the veracity of the original source at all.

The links your provide are dishonest; the video itself says it is oversimplifying the process to make it understandable. While the video hints that money is merely created from nothing this is obviously done as hyperbole and the video states that real assets are the basis for the money "created". The main POINT is the ratio of assets/money to loans, and I think everyone agrees that this ration is staggering.

From your second link: "I must admit I stopped watching the video about half-way through". Oh fucking FANTASTIC, well I guess his sophomoric and dishonest criticism should be taken seriously. :eyes:

You have an agenda on this board to tirelessly defend corporate interests, and that disclosure should merit taking all of your posts in consideration of that fact.

[scheming daemons]

82. LOL.... *I* defend corporate interests?

Ok...

You know nothing about me.

For the record... I work for the Dept. of Energy.... Yes... I'm a gov't employee. I don't work for a "corporation".



And also for the record... I'm not saying the video is incorrect.... I'm saying to hear all sides before you take it as 100% truth.

[Runcible Spoon]

84. yep, you have consistently.

and working for the Dept. of Energy doesn't make you immune from corporate influence. I had to snicker at that.

[scheming daemons]

89. The only thing I've defended consistently at DU is Barack Obama

....but I guess to some "progressives", he's a corporatist.

[Runcible Spoon]

90. yep, he is, to the extent that 99% of all politicians at that level are.

And it goes beyond defending HIM, it's defending his disgusting stable of DLC neoliberal Chicago School lackeys.

Obama has some great policy positions, unfortunately his stand on economic issues is NOT progressive.

[scheming daemons]

91. I'm still going to defend him to the end...

Deal with it.

[Runcible Spoon]

92. Have at it.

Just don't think you can spread lies around DU and not be called on it. Ciao.

[NMDemDist2]

32. yeah, I recommend that video often

I need to watch the Freedom to Fascism one too

[democracy1st]

33. K & R Youtube link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVkFb26u9g8

[zagging]

34. A valuable video

Money as debt. Counterintuitive, but true.

[Waiting For Everyman]

36. We have an opportunity now to do away with the Federal Reserve

and form a National Bank of the U.S. The third one, if I'm counting right? The global private system has obviously bankrupted itself. IMO the struggle over a new national bank versus the Fed is what's really going on behind the scenes now, about this economic bailout.

At the end of the day, I don't believe the current system can be saved, even if we wanted to. We will either return to national economies and national banks, or go the opposite way into total one-world economic and political slavery. Even if that happened though, I don't see how it could last long. Just as we are seeing now the folly of the idea of "sustained unlimited greed" with this collapse, taking it further than this would eventually reveal itself as the same folly only magnified.

Reality has its limits, which will eventually doom any illusion. By taking the current one this far, its absurdity has become obvious, even to people who don't understand it - they can SEE that it doesn't work. It's the same thing as "giving it enough rope to hang itself". The bankers took it too far, they screwed up. But eventually it would've come to the same thing, only more slowly. More slowly would've meant prolonging the suffering from it, so we may be more fortunate now than we realize.

With a little luck that the right choices are made, we may see this as a silver-lined cloud years from now. It has already given us Obama instead of McCain.

The interesting thing is that there are both Dems and Repubs who want the Federal Reserve gone, and a national economy back. And conversely, there are both Dems and Repubs who are pro-globalization. That is the true political dividing-line. The other issues are window-dressing to obscure that and neutralize both parties.

This is an old battle. As the video noted, it was the reason for our revolution in the first place, and that struggle did NOT end when peace was declared. In fact it went on before our beginnings here, among the same factions. It will not ever end, but each time after a good ass-kicking it waits a generation or so and re-forms itself for another propaganda attack... using whichever party it will.

The issue is national sovereignty and national economy. Without that, there is no individual self-determination either, as the video shows very well. But even if, theoretically, the global cartel could mold itself now into its ultimate dream of world domination, exponential growth is hurtling toward an endpoint anyway. The globalists have run out of time too soon. They don't know it yet, or won't admit it, but we have outlasted them long enough for the fact of finite resources to defeat them (or at least prevent their dreams from coming true - for very long). The only question left is, can we find a way to survive with what is left?

(I believe that once a truly free and renewable energy source is perfected, it MUST be done in a way that makes each home and building (and car) energy-independent rather than on a grid-system. If the energy and banking drain on our lives is truly broken, then the quality of our lives can go on improving rather than the quantitative measure of "growth".)

We'll see what the future brings, this time. But something new is being born now. The question is, "what?".

[snappyturtle]

39. Yes, I too sense something new is emerging; hopefully, for the better.

I'm wishing that the U.S. turns toward self-reliance. I believe that if we become stronger as a people we will re-establish our esteem and be more beneficial to the world at large. A balance, a true balance, of trade should be sought.

I like your idea of getting us enery independent and off the grid. Mr. Snappy and I are trying to do that with baby steps but none-the-less toward that goal. Even the process is liberating.

[4lbs]

37. Nice. If people here have access and know how to use the bittorrent system, go to

the web site source link presented in that Google link.

http://www.onebigtorrent.org


You'll see hundreds of seeded videos regarding all aspects of finance, politics, and social events.

Very good.

[eShirl]

38. I opened this thread before there were any replies, and didn't bother clicking the link

I was sure it was a Rick Roll.

[yodermon]

40. I think a sequel needs to be produced that explains the current crises in terms of the 1st video.

i.e how the system as explained gave rise to:

* investment banks vs. commercial banks, Glass/Steagal and its repeal in late 90's
* sub-prime lending
* mortgage-backed securities
* derivatives
* credit default swaps
* ending with WTF actually happened last fall

all in terms that plain folks can understand, like the 1st vid.

If such a primer exists i'd love to see it!!

[nc4bo]

41. I've never seen this before, thank-you for posting it.

Even someone as ignorant as I can understand this video :scared:

"Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive."

[trof]

42. K&R Still trying to get my head around this.

[wroberts189]

43. Great God's of all the people.. I've never seen such an enlightning video k&r nt

[scheming daemons]

45. My brother (a banker at PNC) had this response to me after I sent him the video

Take it for what it's worth.

This video has some elements of truth, woven with some falsehoods to yield a significant falsehood. This video is quite subtly flawed, but the flaws are hugely significant.

The banks don’t create money. The central bank (i.e., the Federal Reserve Bank in the US) creates the money. They do that through issuing treasury bills and they make that money available to banks to lend. Treasure bills are nothing more than the government borrowing money and agreeing to pay it later at a specific interest rate.

One flaw in the presentation is that the bank doesn’t create the money for the car loan. Assume that the banking system is, indeed, closed the car dealer can go to the bank and withdraw cash. In the case, a $10,000 loan is converted to $10,000 in cash at the time the dealer withdraws the money.

In fact, the bank borrows the money from the Federal Reserve, and they do it at a very low interest rate. Banks make money on the spread of the interest. The money that is created is in fact backed by people who own central bank treasury notes—that is you, me, institutional investors, and other governments.

Another flaw is that the central banks remove cash from the economy—they don’t just add it. The Federal Reserve Bank buys back treasury bills as well as selling them. Calculation of when and how many t-bills to buy or sell is complex, but occurs constantly.

The first of his four question that he says we should ask, is in fact, what is actually done. The Government is responsible for backing the debt, and they do that by balancing the amount of money created against the gross output of the country, known as the Gross National Product or Gross Domestic Product (GNP or GDP). Back the currency on the GDP is exactly what he proposes at the end of the video as the “better option”—that is the balancing of money against goods and services that a nation produces.

The second of four questions that he asks is actually answered in the video itself. The reason that money circulates and “increases in volume” is due to the fact that when you get paid, and buy something, that money goes to pay someone else-just like in the loan scenario. Central Banks watch this process of circulation very carefully, and use it to calculate how much money needs to be added or removed from the economy through the sale or purchase of government bonds. In fact, the reason that banks get to loan at 9:1 ratios is because currency flows through the economy at roughly a 9:1 ratio, as well-the two have to be quite closely balanced.

The “subtle form of dictatorship” doesn’t really exists. Banks are not the only source of funds, and, in fact, banks will usually lend money to people who are credit worthy. And because there are multiple banks competing for your business, if one bank doesn’t lend you money, another probably will—as long as you are credit worthy.

Money can come from other places, too, such as private investors or government grants, tax rebates, returns on stocks, bonds, or other investments, etc. Governments exert more control over the “direction of society” than bankers do. Hopefully, they are more responsible to societal needs than an individual banker would be.

The concept that interest or usary is somehow immoral isn’t reasonable either. If I have car, and you want to borrow it, you would be willing to pay me something to compensate me for the loss of my car for a period of time. Money is no different. If you have my money, I can’t spend it. Therefore, you should be willing to pay me for the opportunities that I would lose because you have my money.

[wroberts189]

47. I am sorry but I see no significant contradiction

Whether they create it by magic hat or the fed prints it ...is that not the same?

And those t-bills ...are they not just paper?


Please correct me...

[scheming daemons]

48. I think his point is...

The four "questions" at the end of the video are already answered with the system we currently have in place.


And the thing to be careful about is that the video, at the end, seems to be advocating for communism - and restrictions on the number of children that a couple can have.


The more I am enlightened by the flaws of this video, the more I see it as a propaganda piece put out by communists.


Now... you may think that is a valid way to go.... I do not.

[wroberts189]

50. alas you are correct.. I am only half way through ..will be back. nt

[hfojvt]

54. I don't know if its communists

usually rightwingers are all big on the gold standard. That seemed to be where they were headed, to the gold standard, but I cannot be motivated to watch the other 30 minutes since I think they were flawed in the first ten minutes. It has, however, been over 20 years since I took that course in money and banking. Plus, I only got a B in it.

[wroberts189]

56. I just listened to the whole thing and never heard the word communists

fyi

[Runcible Spoon]

72. Great, you didn't even watch the whole fucking thing.

It does NOT suggest the gold standard. And people wonder where ignorance comes from: "I have no idea but I have an opinion". Derf.

[hfojvt]

93. oh bite me. I watched ten minutes of crap

That was plenty. If you watched the whole damn thing, why don't you share what it said if it's so bleeding important. Instead you want to share your opinion - of me. I spent 8 years in two universities, I am less ignorant than the idiots who made that little film with their silly story about Mr. Goldsmith.

[Runcible Spoon]

96. It's not my job to summarize and distill information for you

If you choose to be lazy and then just sling back shallow insults and expect them to fly as actual discourse, you've got the wrong poster. And if you want to stand up and epeen your degree(s?) around, I'm not going to fawn all over that either, especially, as I suspect, if one is an MBA. :rofl:

[wroberts189]

57. Just watched whole thing... cannot find the part your quoting.

"And the thing to be careful about is that the video, at the end, seems to be advocating for communism - and restrictions on the number of children that a couple can have."



am i drunk or something?


btw ...would it not be good to start controlling our numbers regardless?

[scheming daemons]

60. They don't use the word "communism".... but...

They talk about a "closed system" with zero-percent loans to anyone who asks for them ("to each according to his need") and population controls and rationing of resources (energy).

It's an argument against a consumption-based economy (ours).


I'm not saying it isn't valid... but let's call it what it is.... communism.

[Runcible Spoon]

74. yeah "talking about" is the same as advocacy. Or not.

They talk about a whole range of alternatives and that was merely one. I can't believe the lengths you will go to to discredit this DISHONESTLY.

[scheming daemons]

79. I'm not discrediting it.... I'm saying let's call it what it is....

It is an advocacy film for communism.

It may be 100% correct in being the way we want to go.


But it is what it is.

[Runcible Spoon]

83. It isn't what it is just because you say so.,

and suggesting it as such indicates your lack of knowledge about what communism is. Lots of non-communist countries have nationalized their central banks. Keep using scare tactics like OMG STORMFRONT and OMG COMMIES to dishonestly steer the rhetoric, as opposed to actual FACTS.

[grantcart]

105. Well the poster who posted the video is interested in selling

marxist and anarchist literature not books on countries with nationalized banks (BTW all central banks are nationalized by nature. Some countries like Sweeden have nationalized their banks during distress and then reprivatised them when the situation improved.

http://onebigtorrent.org/

[AndrewP]

110. No. Let's not.

[Runcible Spoon]

73. Ooooo the COMMUNISM Bogeyman!

Are you for fucking real? There was NOTHING at ALL in the video that suggests anything like communism.

[scheming daemons]

80. From the 29 minute mark on.... it is advocating the following:

- A closed system with a finite money supply

- Bank notes that are in "hours of work"

- Zero-percent loans - no usury practices

- A complete barter-based economy

- Only using the resources necessary to maintain the status quo (no growth)

- Limiting the population to a static level (so that resource consumption remains static)



You can call it whatever you want... but it already has a name. Communism.

And it may be humanity's best-bet for survival. I'm not saying otherwise.

But be honest about what this film is advocating.

[Runcible Spoon]

85. NO they were NOT advocating that.

They were merely talking about possibilities and they specifically said that system would be a good back up for emergencies where the banks fell. ANy advocacy in the film would be for nationalized banking system. More like socialism.

PLEASE just STOP the dishonest framing.

[scheming daemons]

88. For the record, I'm in favor of nationalizing the banks

Just like Sweden did in the early '90s.

[mistertrickster]

95. I wouldn't call it communism, but I would call it nuts. nt

[wroberts189]

49. You know its hard to get ones head around this ..so complicated.

But one point they make in the video ...you need credit to grow an empire.

If you do not have it to lend ..just say you do with promissory notes!

Is that not what the entire western civilization has done?

And I do not have a bias against it ..if it works use it ..is my motto.

Seems to me in the end this in one hell of a stack of cards.

[scheming daemons]

51. All fiat currencies are a "stack of cards"

Has been since the beginning of time.


There's a reason that most banks have the word "Trust" in the name... and currencies are called "Promissary notes" and such.


The system all works as long as we all agree that it does and agree that the paper in our wallets means something.


As soon as enough of us say... no fucking way, your paper/gold/beads are worthless to me... the system breaks down.

[Runcible Spoon]

75. slavery worked too, you wanna go back to that?

[Hannah Bell]

66. Something missing from this picture.

The CB issues T-bills.

"Investors" buy them, thereby loaning money to the CB.

1. If the investors have the money to buy the T-bills, their money already exists somewhere in the system - no new money is being created.


The CB lends the borrowed money to individual banks to be reloaned to their individual customers.

The customers pay back their banks plus e.g. 5%.

Those banks pay back the CB plus e.g. 4%.

The investors get their money back plus 4%.

2. If the "investors" get back their money plus interest, the end result is an expansion of the investors' money supply & a contraction of everyone else's money supply.


Something's missing.

[amborin]

68. thanks for this great and MUCH NEEDED post---folks here are going the way of ron paul it seems, egad

[ORDagnabbit]

77. Your brother seems to get around...this so called "response" is on a number of boards... why is that

grab a sentence from above any will do

i took the first one

"This video has some elements of truth, woven with some falsehoods to yield a significant falsehood. This video is quite subtly flawed, but the flaws are hugely significant."

then do a google search on it.

you get hits like this...

http://blog.leetsoft.com/2008/3/24/money-as-debt
http://www.malefnin.com/ib/index.php?showtopic=113648&st=100&start=100

[Runcible Spoon]

86. Doesn't surprise me.

That poster will SAY ANYTHING to push his agenda.

[tkmorris]

87. Nice catch

His "brother" huh?

[mistertrickster]

94. Thank you. Your brother is right. Think of it this way, if the system is so bad,

how has it managed to survive for going on 2 hundred years?

The meltdown is going to be "any day now?" Give me a break.

[ORDagnabbit]

114. LOL...his "brother" check out my post on his brother.

[yodermon]

101. ROFL!!! Your BROTHER sure gets around!

Here is the google search result page for a random sentence in your screed:

e.g.
"The first of his four question that he says we should ask, is in fact, what is actually done."

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22The+first+of+his+four+question+that+he+says+we+should+ask,+is+in+fact,+what+is+actually+done.%22&hl=en&client=firefox-a&filter=0

Wow here's a link on a Russian site! (From march of last year, of course)
http://max-amosov.livejournal.com/73358.html?thread=75406

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: high comedy, thanks for the laugh!

[grantcart]

106. well that is an exceptional catch

the first hit goes to 'brother's' edition that actually shows how it has been edited;

http://blog.leetsoft.com/2008/3/24/money-as-debt

obviously this has been around and discussed for some time

[wuvuj]

52. Here's the most important OVERVIEW of what's ahead...

This will refresh your brain.....


http://www.chrismartenson.com/crashcourse


I went thru this in one sitting....

[bvar22]

55. K&R

Bookmarked for future reference.


We cashed in our chips and moved to The Woods in 2006.

[Festivito]

58. It's good. Goes a little beyond the "Money Masters" videos.

This one makes some jumps that do not resonate with me, such as, it seems, denying that there is any real value in world beyond debt based money so that there is no room in the money supply for interest, or that too much of the money supply is in use so that there is not enough. Just not buying that. But, I might just not get it yet. I'll try again.

[wildbilln864]

61. k&r! and thank you for posting...nt

[earth mom]

63. IMO this video says it and shows it much better.

a MUST watch video:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912&hl=en

[wildbilln864]

64. Have you seen this one then...

Zeitgeist It's just audio for the first 10 minutes or so. It's three parts and part two IIRC also deals with your posted vid. :hi:

[Juche]

65. thanks

[Hello_Kitty]

78. K and R.

[GreenTea]

81. Excellent...Knew this in theory subconsciously, but never thoughts in such detail as presented

in the video, in that the evolution has been forced upon us, untimely, to be the losers in this expansive illusion.

[mike_c]

99. I agree-- it blows me away-- and it tells us that the economic stimulus plan is a scam....

It's like demanding that slaves pay to keep their owners wealthy enough to maintain the system of slavery. THAT is what the "economic stimulus" is. This is CRAZY. Intelligent people are debating the fine points of a plan that delivers them even more solidly into indenture.

[ihavenobias]

100. Thanks for the link Big Bear!

I'll check it out.

[Irish Girl]

102. BigBearJohn, have you seen "Money Masters" or read "Tragedy and Hope"?

Hi BigBearJohn,

If you're interested in this subject, here are two more resources to wet your palette. The Money Masters is a long video (three and a half hours) but extremely thorough and gives plenty of research material to delve into.

"The Money Masters - How International Bankers Gained Control of America"

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-515319560256183936&ei=cYGTSaWWM4iGqwLQu8W2Cw&q=the+money+masters&hl=en

"Tragedy and Hope" by Dr. Carroll Quigley also deals with this subject and the book was at one time banned and extremely difficult to obtain. I was able to snag a copy by requesting a loan transfer from my local library. It's over 1,000 pages long but quite enlightening. Here's the top-rated review of the book from Amazon's website;

It's a Long Book, but Worth Reading, December 28, 2003
By A Customer
This review is from: Tragedy and Hope: A History of The World in Our Time (Hardcover)

The late Dr. Carroll Quigley, was a professor of history at the Foreign Service School of Georgetown University. He was, as his book reflects, brilliant, egotistical and opinionated. He also was a confirmed socialist who believed the world could be a better place if the educated elite ruled.

Former President Clinton said in 1992: "...As a student at Georgetown, I heard that call clarified by a professor named Carroll Quigley, who said to us that America was the greatest country in the history of the world because our people have always believed in two things: that tomorrow can be better than today and that every one of us has a personal, moral responsibility to make it so."

Unfortunately, Dr. Quigley revealed the game plan of the elite when the elite (a shy group by nature and not at all given to republican government) didn't want it publicized. Far from wanting to hide this "network" (as he called it), Quigley was proud of it.

"I know of the operations of this network because I have studied it for twenty years and was permitted for two years, in the early 1960's, to examine its papers and secret records. I have no aversion to it or to most of its aims and have, for much of my life, been close to it and to many of its instruments. I have objected, both in the past and recently, to a few of its policies...but in general my chief difference of opinion is that it wishes to remain unknown, and I believe its role in history is significant enough to be known."

Thus, unfortunately, Tragedy and Hope was pulled from bookshelves nationwide and recalled faster than an exploding Easter Bunny, never to be published again, except for a highly abbreviated edition. But if you can pick up a copy of this book, you'll find how things often worked behind the scenes of government and the worldwide ambitions of "the network."

If you simply want to know about the network and how it operated up until this book was published, I recommend Dr. W. Cleon Skousen's "Naked Capitalist," which I believe is still in print.

and another ..

The author, Carroll Quigley, has the highest credentials. He taught former President Bill Clinton and many other notables. What he has to say about the federal bankers control of governments, the press and media, institutions from the Ford Foundation and the Carnegie Trust to Harvard and Princeton (universities where he taught) is worldview shattering. It explains how the US & Europe became what they are, as well as why the politics and economy are the way they are.

It is a detailed college text, use the index if it's too much for you.

If you read this book - you will never be the same again. Beware...

Here's a direct link to Amazon so you can browse through more reviews at your leisure if you'd like.
http://www.amazon.com/Tragedy-Hope-History-World-Time/dp/094500110X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1234404035&sr=8-1

[BigBearJohn]

109. Thanks. I'll check it out.

[Politicub]

104. Fascinating! I had no idea...

of the relationship between debt and money (money is debt). The banking system is so entrenched and has an unbelievable amount of control. Will this temporary slippage of its orbit give us a window for our government to wrestle back control? I want to be hopeful, but it's such a powerful system to overcome.

[ContinentalOp]

107. Interesting. So what in this video is accurate and what isn't?

Some people seem to be dismissing the whole thing due to concerns about individual parts of it. I think the Rothschild international banking conspiracy crap at the end is pretty eye rolling but I'm wondering...

- Is it accurate to say that banks create money by creating debt?
- Is there more "money" in the system in the form of numbers on a computer than actual printed currency? At a 9-1 ratio?
- If the above two are true, is it essentially impossible for all debts to be paid? Is the film accurate in saying that the interest creates extra money which doesn't exist and therefore there has to be a certain amount of loans that default? And this number can be expressed as a predictable formula?

I also found this article very interesting:
http://www.arthurmag.com/2008/12/08/bernard-lietaer-on-money-1997/#more-3425

"For example, we can produce more than enough food to feed everybody, and there is definitely enough work for everybody in the world, but there is clearly not enough money to pay for it all.

The scarcity is in our national currencies. In fact, the job of central banks is to create and maintain that currency scarcity. The direct consequence is that we have to fight with each other in order to survive.

Money is created when banks lend it into existence (see article by Thomas Greco on page 19). When a bank provides you with a $100,000 mortgage, it creates only the principal, which you spend and which then circulates in the economy. The bank expects you to pay back $200,000 over the next 20 years, but it doesn’t create the second $100,000 - the interest. Instead, the bank sends you out into the tough world to battle against everybody else to bring back the second $100,000.

SARAH : So some people have to lose in order for others to win? Some have to default on their loan in order for others to get the money needed to pay off that interest?

BERNARD : That’s right. All the banks are doing the same thing when they lend money into existence. That is why the decisions made by central banks, like the Federal Reserve in the US, are so important - increased interest costs automatically determine a larger proportion of necessary bankruptcies.

So when the bank verifies your “creditworthiness,” it is really checking whether you are capable of competing and winning against other players - able to extract the second $100,000 that was never created. And if you fail in that game, you lose your house or whatever other collateral you had to put up."

[PM Martin]

111. kick

[wildbilln864]

113. kick! nt

[BigBearJohn]

115. Kick

[wildbilln864]

116. and kick again! nt

:banghead:

[lcdnumber6]

117. i don't know which was scarier....

the story/theories presented in the video or some of the cartoon "humans"! good stuff to think about, though. thanks!