Oh Crap, "Octuplets doctor has another patient expecting quadruplets"...

[JeffreyWilliamson]

http://www.latimes.com/features/health/medicine/la-me-octuplets13-2009feb13,0,457763.story

A few months after Dr. Michael Kamrava helped Nadya Suleman become pregnant with octuplets, he transferred at least seven embryos to another patient.

She was in her late 40s and wanted just one baby.

Now she's five months pregnant with quadruplets and hospitalized at Los Angeles County-USC Medical Center, according to several sources familiar with the situation.

Transfered at least seven embryos to another patient?

[JeffreyWilliamson]

1. And more on Dr. Kamrava...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article5721333.ece

[Avalux]

13. Damning article. 5 malpractice suits since 2001.

Now that Dr. Kamrava is himself under a microscope, let's hope his license is revoked and the clinic closed. Seems it should have been done a long time ago.

One thing - the article states Dr. Kamrava is responsible for IVF for all of Ms. Suleman's children. She stated in an interview she went to a different physician for the octuplets. Why would she lie about that?

[KittyWampus]

17. thanks for posting solid info on that doctor.

[rebecca_herman]

2. geez

at first it made sense to me, a woman over 40 generally has a legitimate reason to transfer that many... they are usually poor quality, won't survive a freeze to use later, and have very very low implantation rates - transfer seven 45+ embryos you'd probably get 0-1 fetuses as a result (maybe 2 if the one good embryo split). But then I saw they used donor eggs from a younger woman. /facepalm

this doctor should probably be investigated if he's not following proper medical ethics, but I wouldn't want to see the banning of transferring large numbers of embryos because there are a small, limited number of situations where it is appropriate and may help an older woman get her last chance at a child, and I imagine those situations outnumber ones like Octomom's, since most women will not transfer that many without a legitimate reason. I heard of a woman who transferred 6 or 7 and had a singleton. She was in her early 40s and had something like 3 failed previous attempts and her embryos didn't look great - if she didn't use all of them they were too low quality to freeze. As long as the medical history of the patient and the quality of the embryos is taken into account it should be a decision because an ethical doctor and the patient. There was also a woman who had IVF sextuplets from her last 4 frozen embryos. They put them all back after something like 20 frozen embryos from their initial IVF over several years produced not one positive pregnancy test. She ended up losing one of the sets of identicals before birth of natural causes, there was something wrong with them if I remember right, so she ended up with just 4 who did end up healthy - quadruplets and octuplets are a world away from each other. I think she had a one time show on one of the Discovery Health programs.

[Marrah_G]

4. This doctor needs to have his license revoked.

He is negligent and unethical.

[KittyWampus]

18. Article linked to in first reply to this thread says in Britain, number is limited to two

Other DU'ers have said other countries limit to 2 or 3.

The chances of multiple births and handicapped babies in births that cost astronomical amounts of money outweigh any ONE woman's desire to give birth.

That's just my opinion. And I'm sure it won't be popular.

If you want IVF, keep trying two or three embryos at at time. If it doesn't work, adopt or use a surrogate.

[saltpoint]

3. This might be a really good year to invest in diaper stock.

Call your broker today.

[Midlodemocrat]

7. Seriously. That and baby food.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

5. I guess I just don't get the "baby culture"

It doesn't matter if you believe in science or God, this shit isn't natural.

[Midlodemocrat]

6. He's a quack.

[galaxy21]

8. Most doctors will only implant several embryos if there's an agreement with the patient they will

selectively reduce if they get 4 or 5 fetuses. Especially, if the patient is older.

I assume the woman in this case is pro life, hence her not reducing, and the doctor must have known she felt that way. So, why did he implant that many embryos?

[cherish44]

11. I agree with that totally

You don't have tell patients to reduce but find out up front if they're opposed to it. If that's the case 2 embryos max. Of course I know a woman who transferred 2 and ended up with triplets...but at least the risk was a little more controlled

[moc]

22. On this issue, it's surprising how many infertility doctors DON'T talk to their patients about

the risks of higher order multiples (HOM) and issues of selective reduction.

(Please note, I'm not making excuses for this doctor; he sounds like he should be drummed out of practice.)

This tends to be a bigger issue with IUI (intrauterine insemination) than with IVF because it's harder to have control over the number of potentially fertilizable eggs with IUI. When I went through IUI, I had a very explicit discussion with my doctor about the risks and my attitudes regarding selective reduction before we even started. Because my husband was opposed to SR, my cycles were managed a lot more carefully and would have been canceled if I'd produced too many viable eggs. However, I had discussions with other patients in the same practice but who saw different doctors in the practice, and I was shocked to find out they'd never had the HOM/SR discussion before going down the IUI/injectibles treatment route

So, I guess I am not THAT surprised there are doctors who don't talk about SR up front.

[KittyWampus]

19. Guess what? A woman can agree to abort the extra implanted embryos and then change her mind

One more reason there should be restrictions on number transferred.

[cherish44]

21. There's always that possiblity

Or a patient could just lie about saying they would reduce too. They could also transfer only 2 embryos and still end up with quads..There's no easy answer. Basically most fertility doctors consider any procedure that doesn't result in a singleton birth of a live baby a failure...Unfortunately it hasn't been perfected yet. I read stats that in an IVF proceedure on average 1 embryo out of 10 ends up being as actual live baby. So there's some wild twists and turns of fate going on. just like everything in life...

[anonymous171]

29. Why would a "pro-life" person show such disrespect for human life?

[Starry Messenger]

9. I'm really getting an "x-files" vibe off of this whole thing.

Anyone else?

[Karenina]

28. Yes.

:tinfoilhat:

[cherish44]

10. It's insanity that a 49 year old woman would proceed with a quad pregnancy

Especially if she's never had a baby before. I think the reason Octomom was able to successfully carry 8 babies is she had already had many previous pregnancies. Anyway it's obvious that these clinics need to revise their embryo transfer policy. If the patient is opposed to reducing a high order multiple pregnancy then 2 embryos max. No exceptions even for age...

[saltpoint]

12. Our mother's womb should be a temple of prayer; these clinic doctors have

made it a den of thieves.

With the doctors as the thieves. Misappropriated use of sacred territory, etc.

Veriily I say unto you, The cash registers doth ring through the Kingdom!

[LeftinOH]

14. OK I'm calling it: Dr Kamrava himself is the "seed donor"...just wait..n/t

[JeffreyWilliamson]

16. Oh crap...

I hadn't thought of that possibility.

:scared:

[KittyWampus]

20. that's all this bizarre story needs. You should write a novel. Or tv pilot.

[saltpoint]

15. And Dixiecups.

Might as well broaden the portfolio.

[Arkansas Granny]

23. If you ask me, and I realize no one has, this is the person who should be investigated.

[Dukkha]

24. He heard a voice call to him

"Build me an army worthy of Mordor!"

[kiva]

25. Is this doctor trying to start his own baby boom?

It sounds as though he has his staff well trained: A woman who answered the phone at his West Coast IVF Clinic said: "If mother wants to bring four kids, so what?"

So he implanted at least 7 embryos from a younger woman (hint: more likely to result in a multiple birth) into a woman who said she wanted one baby. Woman is now in a county medical center because she lacks insurance, so she and her husband will likely have to rely on state/federal assistance to raise these kids, assuming they survive, because a set of quads aren't going to get you a TV show and sponsorship.

[JeffreyWilliamson]

This doctor sounds like a real piece of work, doens't he? n/t

[JeffreyWilliamson]

26. This doctor sounds like a real piece of work, doens't he? n/t

[galaxy21]

27. He can probably justify it in his own mind

Like he's helping women, by giving them what they want.