I wrote my doctoral dissertation about DU.

[boobooday]

I wanted to tell you. I defended it in August, when I received my PhD in Mass Comm. I have been a participant here for a long time, and an observer at Free Republic, the site I used for my comparative study. I would also post it there, but I have been banned every time I have signed up. I just wanted to say thank you to you all, what you do is real, and you are a real community. People like you are insisting that the U.S. move towards more democracy, and making it happen. This is my abstract. If any Freepers are lurking, thanks to them too.

AGONISTIC DEMOCRACY AND THE NARRATIVE OF DISTEMPERED ELITES: AN ANALYSIS OF CITIZEN DISCOURSE ON POLITICAL MESSAGE FORUMS

Navigating the tension between liberalism and democracy that characterizes our political system requires an agonistic approach to political conflict. The agonistic approach recognizes opponents as adversaries rather than enemies, as discussed by Chantal Mouffe and by Robert Ivie and disagreement as productive rather than obstructive, shedding the idealized and frequently unobtainable goal of consensus.

In this interpretive study, the discourse of politically interested citizens participating in partisan online “rhetorical” communities was examined for evidence of Mouffe’s agonistic pluralism. Two popular and parallel message forums were chosen as the subjects of the study, and a composite sample was drawn in January 2008. FreeRepublic.com, a conservative forum, and the liberal message forum DemocraticUnderground.com represent two active communities with strong ideological identities that transcend party affiliation. Analysis of link sources and topics provided information about what these online citizens were discussing, and where they turned for information about political actors and events. The narrative analysis invoked Kenneth Burke’s dramatistic frames of acceptance and rejection in order to provide a framework for the investigation. The study identified a narrative of the citizen-protagonist that was shared between the two communities. A more robust rhetorical ecosystem existed at Democratic Underground, as they often applied Burke’s “comic corrective” to points of conflict and took a more egalitarian approach to who could speak and when. The participants at Free Republic were more likely to assign motivations that precluded the agonistic frame. Ultimately, these emergent communities created environments that manifested the centrifugal and centripetal forces of democracy and liberalism, respectively. They also shed light on some of the pitfalls of rituals of “virtual vengeance.” These rituals can be empowering, affirming the “rationality of outrage,” but veer into something akin to Nietzsche’s “slave morality” when judgment is passed without the presentation of forensic evidence regarding motivation. Finally, the study argues that investigations of what online citizens actually do to constitute their political identities provide a well-rounded picture of political culture, which, according to Doris Graber may be more important than factors such as “citizen wisdom and media excellence” but is undoubtedly a reflection of both.

I'd love to provoke a discussion, but I can't promise not to write about it!

:patriot:

[Starry Messenger]

1. Congratulations!

Do we have to call you Dr. boobooday now? :D Seriously, that does look interesting. Is there a place online where someone could read more of it?

[boobooday]

4. It is at ProQuest

So it could be accessed online. You might need an academic affiliation or library access?

Thanks for the congrats!

:hug:

[Starry Messenger]

10. Cool, thank you!

I'll give that a shot. That's a great achievement boobooday!

[izzybeans]

52. Awesome. if you don't mind I'm gonna go find it and check it out.

Congrats!

[boobooday]

62. Linkee

To save you the search:

http://www.toofunproductions.com/CastilloDiss.pdf

[izzybeans]

105. Ha! IU

I lived in Bloomington before I went to grad school.

it's probably the only place I could live in Indiana if I ever moved back again.

thanks!

[boobooday]

106. I loved it there. And I've said exactly the same thing

And I was born in Indiana. Bloomington is a great town.

[Starry Messenger]

136. Oh, double plus good.

Yeah!

[Generic Other]

146. I liked the last post...CONSENSUS

It might have been a fictional conceit, but it was a great conclusion.

And one could hope that it was possible that FR and DU could find common ground. But I doubt it.

Congrats!

[TahitiNut]

164. "TahitiNut began and ended his message with the grotesque and scatalogical."

Moi???

O8)


Yeah. :evilgrin:

[boobooday]

182. TahitiNut, you added just the right spice

If the scatalogical can be mixed with a food metaphor.

:yourock:

[TahitiNut]

225. (blushing) Well, I must say I'm somewhat fascinated to discover an area of academic study ...

... wherein the manner in which I choose to engage in such discussions is aptly and fairly described in philosophical terms I didn't know existed, at least in the focused and succinct ways I'm seeing. For example, the distinction between 'agonistic' and 'antagonistic' is, I believe, a surprisingly Keen Sense Of The Obvious (which I feel is far too rare). I personally tend to amateurishly frame the manner in which we interact in terms of game theory, opting as far as I can personally for the "win-win" in the largest sense and keeping the imaginary "win-lose" contained to the more trivial and somewhat playful engagements. I'm a HUGH proponent of using humor and farcical language, without prissy bounds, to stimulate thought and gain insight. (I guess that's obvious.) I suppose I should've expected that such choices had been examined academically and I was following a known path.

[boobooday]

229. no unknown paths -- sometimes the scenery changes

It's all about your attitude towards the path. Playful is the correct attitude.

And Game Theory is hugh and series.

[Soylent Brice]

129. i have access to ProQuest. my fave database

i will most certainly be checking this out.

congrats!!!!!!

[Hekate]

172. How do you access ProQuest? I've tried in the years since I finished my own, but...

... I'm just using my home computer, and it seems to think I don't belong in their stacks. :blush:

Hekate

[boobooday]

183. You probably have to have access through a university or library

I did post the entire thing online at my website.

http://www.toofunproductions.com/CastilloDiss.pdf

[prairierose]

218. Hekate, does your local library have online access ...

All of the libraries in my state that belong to the state library organization have subscriptions to a variety of databases, among them Proquest, that I can access from my computer using my library account. Check out your local library's website and see if there are instructions there or call and ask them about it.

[Hekate]

250. Thanks, PrairieRose, I will try that route.

:hi:

[CBR]

2. Sounds interesting...

I am preparing my dissertation proposal now. It is in its infancy stages but I hope to tackle online citizen discourse and the impact of alternative realities. It takes a policy perspective as my degree is Public Policy. I am taking a Mass Comm Theory course this semester (last course). Congrats on finishing!! It seems so far away.

[boobooday]

5. You will get there! It sounds like you are pretty close.

So you are looking at online games? Virtual worlds?

[CBR]

16. Thanks. It is getting there...

I am looking at political blogs and alternative media networks (indymedia etc..) and their ability to operate outside of the dominant political structure to influence social change - does the internet facilitate such change or does the internet simply replicate the structure with new formulations of social stratification? Right now, I am attempting to design a conception of the internet value system. I have included comment about my rejections from FreeRepublic participation due to their moderator policies! Jacques Ellul's Technological Society theory will serve as the base.

[boobooday]

64. I have to check out the Ellul reference

I have some of his work on propaganda.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

153. sounds like an interesting subject (as does DR booboo's)

the internet value system.... verrrrry intriguing.

[truedelphi]

142. One of the nicer people that I know was visiting California

When the Stanford Grad "killer" was up for parole.

S. read the morning headlines on how the poor chump had prepared dissertation after dissertation for his disapproving adviser, until one day the grad student got an axe and then...

SS smiled after reading the story and said, "One more year at my dissertation, and that could have been me."

[Hekate]

180. One of my closest friends in grad school had a complete meltdown over the proofreading process...

That part gave me very little trouble, since I actually once worked as a proofreader in a print shop, but it was arduous for a lot of people. To me they were just another set of threshold guardians...

My friend ended up yelling that if she had a rifle in her possession she would -- ugh, I can't even write it. I love the gal, but that was over the top and around the bend.

Bottom line was she eventually managed to pass even this trial and defended her dissertation several months after I did mine.

But she'll never set foot on that campus again. :eyes:

Hekate

[boobooday]

184. I hate to admit I can kind of understand

The feeling, not the actual actions.

[truedelphi]

245. Your video on W leaving is awesome.

Who is doing those vocals?

Forgot how much I liked that song. And I'll never forget how much joy his leaving brings us.

[boobooday]

253. Thanks!

It's me singing. I'm no professional, but I could sing THAT song with conviction!

[truedelphi]

267. You really should be a professional. n/t

[pnwmom]

163. Welcome to DU, CBR! Good luck on your proposal! n/t

[a la izquierda]

3. Ohhhh, jealous!

I won't defend until March of 2010. But congrats, that's awesome!

[boobooday]

6. Ah, you're right behind me.

Best of luck. It will be here before you know it! What is your discipline?

[a la izquierda]

8. History, or as my mom says...

"you deal with the dead because you can't handle the living."
Specifically, Latin America. I focus on indigenous peoples, political violence and women's movements. My dissertation is on a small indigenous group in Mexico, who, to this day, are still pretty culturally similar to their pre-contact ancestors.

I am still in research mode (in Mexico). I can't wait to be writing...

[boobooday]

26. Have you used James Scott at all?

Your topic makes me think of him. I loved his book "Domination and the Arts of Resistance." I may have botched that, as I don't have it right here.

[a la izquierda]

68. I've read some Scott...

but I'll have to double check on that one. I've read so much stuff lately, I can't keep it all straight!:crazy: Thanks for the info!

[boobooday]

70. It gets overwhelming

That one sticks in my head because he opens with an African proverb, which I will try to remember accurately:

"When the rich man passes, bow deeply, and fart silently."

[Skinner]

7. This sounds very interesting.

I would be interested in reading it. (Although I will likely need many of the references explained to me.) Could mail us a copy?

Also, the DU administrators are thinking a lot these days about how we can improve our moderating system, to make it faster, more transparent, more effective, and more user-friendly. Our goal is to limit anti-social behavior, while maintaining (or widening) the range of viewpoints that can be expressed and discussed by our members. I get the feeling you might have some useful insights for this project.

[boobooday]

22. I will send you a PDF

And an email. I'd love to share any insights I might have. I discuss the topic of moderation in chapter two, I think. It must be a real challenge, as the impulse is clearly toward inclusion (i.e. democracy) but too much inclusion threatens community identity.

You have created a wonderful online community. One of my favorite things about writing the diss was pulling funny and humane quotes from the discussions here to exemplify the various narrative frames.

I was looking for the comic corrective, which, taken down to its essence is the attitude that our enemies are fallible and foolish rather than irredeemably evil.

I'll send the whole thing to you today.

[kmla]

45. I disagree with your premise.

Not only are our enemies fallible and foolish, they are also irredeemably evil.

And often stinky.

}(

[NMDemDist2]

hey!!!

Leave Stinky out of this, he's a great DUer!!! :rofl:

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Stinky%20The%20Clown

[alcibiades_mystery]

9. I'd suggest that these forums produce/are produced by ressentiment

regardless of "the presentation of forensic evidence regarding motivation," but then I'm a Nietzschean first and foremost. :-)

Cheers for suffering through Chantal Mouffe, and welcome to the club. ;-)

[aikoaiko]

13. There's an old AA saying that all it takes to be motivated to start a new meeting is...

... a resentment and a coffee pot.

[boobooday]

23. I love Mouffe!

I brought Nietzsche into the discussion, and he was quite enlightening too -- I used the Genealogy of Morals. I was thinking about him for days, and then visited a friend, went to the bathroom, and there sat the complete works on the back of the toilet. They were using him as bathroom decor!

It seemed like a sign that Nietzsche was telling me to go for it.

[alcibiades_mystery]

31. For my money

the slave revolt in morality - with ressentiment at its core - explains a lot more about how boards like this operate than would Mouffe's version of antagonism. I was in a very Burke-centric graduate program, so I've done my share of that, too. It's odd: people either fall all over themselves over Burke, or shrug their shoulders at it. I'm in the latter category. :-)

So work up an article for QJS! Tenure review is right around the corner!

:-)

[boobooday]

34. No kidding!

I've got two or three I'm working on.

:hi:

[GhostofRichardRorty]

158. a comment on Burke

If I may chime in: I think there is a very reasonable middle ground between dismissing Burke and being a Burke-o-phile that this dissertation nicely illustrates. When I was a graduate student 20+ years ago, I certainly was irritated by the people who insisted on seeing everything in Burkean terms and who approached his books like they were religious texts and they were priests. But in those 20+ years I certainly have found Burke a tremendously valuable thinker & writer--especially the early Burke. Permanence & Change remains one of my favorite books. Anyway, end of sermon. My point is that he is worth more than a shrug, but less than worship. I think this dissertation models just the right kind of take. Kudos!

[alcibiades_mystery]

175. see my post 39 below

cheers.

[boobooday]

185. Thank you. I do hold him in high esteem

But worship I save for James Boswell. heh heh

(In my undergrad program we were required to treat "Life of Johnson" as a religious text.)

[xiamiam]

11. interesting topic for you dissertation..legitimate and timely. .january 08 was probably the worst

time to sample du however...there were trolls disrupting during the run up to the primaries...not a true picture of the way this board normally works...just my opinion..
kudos to you

[boobooday]

25. I did point that out

It was true on both sites, as the primaries were in progress, and participants were certainly in conflict with each other more than usual. But that in itself was interesting, as I was looking for attitudes toward conflict even beyond ideology.

Basically both communities used the same narrative strategies against each other as they did toward the political "other."

[chill_wind]

108. That last sentence really stands out. Another whole study unto itself, I bet.

Conrats on your work. It's very neat to hear about it.

[tigereye]

131. too bad you didn't see the Mod Forum in action during that time...

or did you? :rofl:

[leftyclimber]

12. Congratulations, Dr. boobooday!

I have a year and a half to go myself. When I need to escape from my diss I will go take a peek at yours -- sounds fascinating!

PS. You didn't receive your Ph.D. ... you EARNED it! :party::party::party::party::party::party::party:

[boobooday]

27. Thanks! And good luck to you.

And you're right. I'm even growing in all the gray hairs I earned doing it, too.

:hug:

[Gman]

14. Sounds very interesting. Congrats, Dr.

The culture differences between FR and DU are very pronounced. You picked an excellent topic.

And, notice in this thread alone those talking about picking their own doctoral topic, or having to defend. That's something you won't see over at FR. At FR, you're more likely to see someone struggling to graduate from high school.

[boobooday]

30. I am always amazed at the number of academics here

And the rhetorical skills of many DUers who are not. An informed and witty bunch!

I thought it was an excellent topic too, as the sites are quite parallel but couldn't be more different in organization and practice. It was rich terrain!

[eridani]

117. Like a Rachel Maddow, you're a doctor; just not THAT kind of doctor!

Congrats!

[Tommy_J]

15. Conrats!

Is your dissertation available online?

[boobooday]

32. Yes, through ProQuest. n/t

[RubyDuby in GA]

17. Holy crapoly! That's awesome!

Congratulation to you!

[jpak]

18. I'm sorry - I am not a "distempered elite"

and I have the vet vaccination papers to prove it...

:evilgrin:

[boobooday]

33. But I bet you know of someone who is

:rofl:

[jpak]

66. and belated congrats on your disseration

:hi:

:thumbsup:

[Javaman]

19. Nice post, hitler.

Good work! :)

[crispini]

20. What is Burke's "comic corrective"?

it sounds interesting. :D

[Viking12]

35. It emerges from Kenneths Burke's"frames" as discussed in "Attitudes Towards History"

The comic frame is juxtaposed w/ the tragic frame. The former allows us to transcend differences by acknowledging the foibles and weaknesses we all carry, if we frame ourselves and others as fools it is easier to bring one back into the fold. On the other hand the tragic frame creates villains that must be exiled, punished, or otherwise scapegoated.

[alcibiades_mystery]

39. Yes

It's a clever use of Bergson's work, as is Burke's whole discussion of perspective by incongruity. It is strange that Burke would then misread Bergson so badly in the later works. The early stuff if great.

[boobooday]

41. And the heroic creates an attitude that tolerates no ambiguity

As in "Support Our Troops".

[Gregorian]

65. I am so glad you posted this. And congratulations on your efforts.

This one little post about heroic behavior is so empowering. The funny thing is, all of this stuff is right in front of our eyes, if we could only just see it. I always felt that phrase was a conservative mantra, even if it is used by Democrats. Now I can see that it is within a context of heroics. No wavering, no dissent.

Little things like that can really help to make one conscious. It's like the Reagan years. I thought I was nuts. I couldn't put my finger on why I was so distraught. Then came this forum. And suddenly I could see that there was a good reason for my frustration. It was the political climate of the country. Repressive. Punitive. Reckless.

I'm not sure if you addressed this issue of forums on the internet, but it has always amazed me that due to the virtual environment, we are a far less homogeneous group than one would find in a physical forum. Teenage newbies are pitted against aged activists with vast experience and knowledge. This is unique to the human race, if I'm correct. The fact that we cannot visually see our forum members also plays a big role in terms of the judgment factor. Or lack thereof. This conglomeration of members gives us a vastly greater pool of experiences and ideas from which to grow upon.

Sheesh, I seem to have something to say about everything. I guess that's the other part of this internet. Anonymity. Haha.

[boobooday]

69. Your description of the environment is very well put!

I wrote my dissertation as a work of dissent from the dismissive attitude I heard among elites when they talked about what people are doing online. The disdain for "bloggers" and others who are participating online is just a continuation of a theme that runs through our political discourse.

We are not fit to rule ourselves. We are a mob, distempered, unruly, barely contained, perhaps even diseased. Therefore, we need an elite class of leaders.

This is the story used to preclude democracy. My argument was that online citizens are proving every day that they are quite ready, and quite fit for more democracy. They invest time in forming their political identities and participating in political communities.

I call us "Citizen Protagonists." That's what drives our impulse to participate and collaborate.

[tigereye]

133. it's fascinating how much communication theories and the psychology of

attitudes seem to be linked. ( not surprisingly)


I used to have many discussions about this with a relative who was getting a PHD in communications.

[boobooday]

140. I know. It really boils down to narrative

There is a group of scholars from several different disciplines who are working on the "narrative theory of consciousness." It's fascinating.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

150. that makes sense !

Thanks! Ha I love it when I get this stuff. :)

I'm going to have to save the PhD for my next life; was a dream of mine, but it's just not possible this time 'round.

[boobooday]

40. Burke makes a distinction between humor and comedy

Both are found here, of course. But the comic corrective is an attitude that sees human beings as foolish rather than evil. It is the proper attitude for democracy, as it allows for an open competition of ideas without demonization of opponents. It keeps things at the level of human relations rather than invoking some higher power (like God) to validate our idea of what is right.

I found that the rhetoric of the right was focused on heroic narratives, which allow no room for fallibility or ambiguity. We are right, and that means we do the right things for the right reasons. The comic corrective allows for more complexity and for disagreement without annihilation (essential to democracy -- that is agonism).

[bluedawg12]

51. This framing of opposing ideas can be used inter and intra group?

The tragic model is: my opponent is evil and has evil motivations.

The heroic model is: God is on our side, this is The American way, or these are our American values, or America love it or leave it?

The comic model is: Live and let live, we disagree but then, we are human, my opponent could simply be wrong.

Is that correct?

I especially worry about attributing motives to opponents without forensic evidence. That can be used intra-group as a form of peer pressure to conform to party ideals, or any group ideals, for that matter.

[boobooday]

56. Heroic and Comic are correctly described

Burke tells us that the tragic is also a form of acceptance.

A perfect example, and one that I used in my diss:

Free Republic: Support our troops, they fight for a just cause and thus can do no wrong.

DU: Support our troops, they signed up to do the right thing, but they are being misused by people in power.

The motivation problem was manifested in challenges to authenticity. That is, there is much time spent among conservatives discussing the question of who is and who isn't, and the question of authenticity is used to challenge those who stray from the "conservative" narrative.

[crispini]

63. That is very neat. Thank you for the explanation.

The "heroic narrative" is interesting as well. Very cool.

[AntiFascist]

110. What about a humorous application of tragedy?

Sometimes it may be useful to utilize a tragic figure from a popular "black comedy" such as Dr. Strangelove in order to belittle your opponents:

[boobooday]

113. Humor and comedy both have their uses

The use of Dr. Strangelove could be comic or humorous. Or it could be the perfect comic corrective to a tragic narrative.

[AntiFascist]

120. There can also be much truth in comedy...

that Dr. Strangelove had something like a disabling split personality disorder based on his Nazi origins, perhaps symbolic of the CIA.

[boobooday]

122. Burke would agree

Comedy is about the truth, and the human condition.

[libnnc]

21. This is why I love DU

Dr. Boobooday, :applause: and congrats to you :fistbump:

[Zodiak]

24. Welcome to the world of PhD's!

I swear that DU has more PhDs per capita than any other "anyone can post" political board.

[QC]

28. The best thing about the Ph.D. is finishing it!

My defense was in October 2006, and I didn't know what to do with myself for months afterward, because it was such an adjustment not having this enormous burden hanging over me at all times.

[omega minimo]

252. PhDs seem to think "the best thing about the Phd" is oneupsmanship over others -- including Phds

:shrug:

[boobooday]

254. Generalization! Produce your data!

;-)

[omega minimo]

268. bwahwhahwhahahhhahaha

:yourock:

touche! and congratulations

[boobooday]

42. I think that is most likely true

Of course there was no way to gather that kind of data. I didn't even try. But I'm sure you are right.

[Bill McBlueState]

29. Congratulations, Dr. boobooday.

I also defended my dissertation in August, but it was in astronomy -- probably doesn't warrant a thread in GD!

Looking over your abstract, I'm interested in your use of terms from physics ("centrifugal and centripetal forces") to describe the political concepts of democracy and liberalism. Can you say a little more about that?

[boobooday]

47. Oooh, I'd love to

I conceptualize the political ideologies as centripetal and centrifugal in that liberalism is a force for centralization through exclusion, and democracy is a force for decentralization through inclusion. I imagine them as gears in the political machine. The tension between them is what makes progress.

I came to this partly through Mouffe who describes the tension as productive. She describes the results of unchecked liberalism as "total closure" and the effects of unchecked democracy as "total dissemination."

I come from a family of mechanical types and grew up next to the factory, so the gear metaphor came naturally.

:-)

[TahitiNut]

50. It obviously describes the spin room experience.

:dunce:

[Solly Mack]

36. Congratulations! I'd love to read your work in its entirety.

[boobooday]

61. I've put it up on my website

linkee:

http://www.toofunproductions.com/CastilloDiss.pdf

[Solly Mack]

67. Thank you!! That was very thoughtful!!!!

[barbtries]

71. thank you

i'm at work and just spent quite some time checking it out.

[alcibiades_mystery]

85. That's so funny

Between the Mouffe and the Burke (and particularly the comic), I thought, "Hmmm, that sounds like Ivie's stuff." This was before you posted your diss. And wattayaknow. IU, with Ivie on the committee. Guess I still know my shit.

:hi:

On edit: I missed your mention of Ivie in the abstract, and still thought Ivie. :rofl:

[boobooday]

89. Bob Ivie, my hero, and yes, I confess I am a Hoosier

I found Bob while looking through the course listings for my minor in American Studies. You know I had to sign up for the class with a one-word title: "Dissent."

And you do indeed know your shit. Ivie was my diss director, although he was my outside committee member.

:hi:

[specimenfred1984]

94. Cool! I'll read it in detail later.

BTW, you ever help any musicians distribute their music online? HINT HINT HINT.

[racaulk]

127. Fantastic!!!

What a great concept for a doctoral dissertation! I look forward to reading it.

Congratulations, Dr. Castillo!

:toast:

[boobooday]

132. Thanks! It's actually DU that rocks

I just documented it.

:yourock:

[Viking12]

37. Congrats, boobooday! I also defended in August and it feels gooooood!

[boobooday]

43. Thanks! I just got the parchment

It didn't feel quite real until I had THAT in my hands!

[Adelante]

38. Sounds very interesting

I hope you put the entire manuscript online at some point so we can read it. Best wishes on your success.

[Terry in Austin]

44. Mama looka

Boobooday is Dr. DU --

Congratulations!

:toast:

"Rhetorical ecosystem" -- yes, yes!

(thanks for not shut you mout'...)

[boobooday]

49. I used to use it for my URL

Someone recently asked me why when they looked for my website they got a godaddy search for Harry Belafonte.

ha.

I thought rhetorical ecosystem was a good description too.

[scheming daemons]

46. Your dissertation is not complete if it has no mention of pizzas

;-)

[boobooday]

48. I even used a graphic of the infamous tombstone

And when I saved it I had to laugh because it was called "dead_freeper.jpg"

[bluedawg12]

53. Yeah, even liberal groups have normative standards

and they must in order to survive.

One of the nice things about DU is that it does not tolerate freeper shilling, which on other forums can become a major distraction and barrier to discussion.

There is only so much you can do to show global climate change, for example, to a conservative who keeps mentioning volcano's and the last 10 million years of climate change and ignoring the burning of fossil fuels.

:eyes:

[chill_wind]

109. LOL!

[DFW]

54. One minor error in your thesis

From what I have seen of FR, it is anything BUT a conservative site.

It is full of reactionaries to genuine mental cases, people who would gladly commit
any number of violent felonies if they thought they had an even chance of getting
away with it (or, as in the case of the TN shooter, don't even care of they get away
with it or not). They do not propose conserving anything, from American values to
our Constitution to this continent on which we live.

FR may be a radical right-wing site, but they have no more in common with conservatism
than Limbaugh has with Edward R. Morrow.



as for you nick: my daddy can't be ugly so! (always did like those old calypso songs)

[boobooday]

57. I was going strictly by their own community identity

Which they describe as conservative. Your critique is quite valid, though.

[DFW]

79. They can hide behind the "conservative" label all they want

And they do, incessantly. However, the old adage applies here:
being inside a church no more makes you a Christian than being
inside a garage makes you a car. The same can be said for belonging
to any political party or blog that calls itself "conservative."
I could myself a scholar because there are books inside my house.
That claim would be equally devoid of substance. Labels are easily
applied, and the radical right seems to have elevated it to a high art.

[boobooday]

197. That was one of my points

That the word conservative has been "debunked," leaving the Freepers with only tests of authenticity, not ideological values. In truth, it is tragic for a democracy.

Ultimately I concluded we could have a more agonistic, robust debate between libertarians and communitarians. We are making the communitarian case, but the religious elements keep the other side from making their case. This debate could be much more productive, I think.

[DFW]

205. The debate COULD be more productive, but it won't be

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. "

Winston Churchill described our political adversaries rather accurately, and
it is for this reason that rational dialogue with them is a utopian goal rather
than something we can realistically expect from our opposite numbers on the right.

[barbtries]

55. congratulations!

i'd like to read it. am i quoted anywhere??? :7

[boobooday]

58. Many DUers are quoted!

I don't think I caught your brilliance. You may have missed my sampling frame. :-)

[tekisui]

59. Sounds interesting.

[wryter2000]

60. Way cool!

I hope you included all my DUzys in the footnotes. :evilgrin:

[BR_Parkway]

72. Congrats - but headline made me think Psychiatry or something related

rather than Communications ;)

Primary season in particular!

[boobooday]

73. Yes, it was an interesting time to take a sample, that's for sure

I did explain the context. :hi:

[jeffrey_X]

74. that's awesome

nm

[ZombieHorde]

75. Your welcome. nt

[msedano]

76. why "rhetorical"?

congratulations. how does it feel to hear yourself called "doctor"?

so why are rhetorical communities in quotes but then rhetorical ecosystems not?

[boobooday]

77. Rhetorical ecosystems was my construction

It feels good sometimes to hear it. :-) I thought it would feel weird but I think I like it. :rofl:

[bleever]

78. How do Washington insiders read a book? First, check the index for their names.

:)

Adobe has a search box at the top that lets you search the entire pdf.

I loved the analysis of the discussion I participated in. I feel honored to have been in some way illustrative of the incisive distinctions you've drawn.

Congratulations, and the very best of luck to you.

:patriot:

[boobooday]

81. Ah, that was an awesome thread

I thank you for your contribution. The entire category of humor/ritual/wordplay was a rich one at DU.

Are you a Washington insider, bleever? Inquiring minds want to know . . .

[bleever]

84. I'm not sure if that's a compliment

or the reverse. :)

But no, I am not.

[boobooday]

87. I was just checking to see if you were going to reveal a secret identity

:-)

Like maybe you were really Dennis Kucinich, posting between congressional hearings. See? I thought of a Washington insider who isn't repugnant.

[tigereye]

134. the above comments add a fascinating virtual sociology or anthropology

angle to your work.


That's very cool.

[boobooday]

201. I made the argument that ethnography was a useful approach

To online communities. So it is totally virtual sociology/anthropology.

[tigereye]

231. I have all these friends who are anthropologists, so I thought of that right

away!

It's fascinating to see that approach being used in your field. Nicely done and the pages I read from your dissertation have a very readable quality to them!

[boobooday]

233. We are talking cultures

It wouldn't have done justice to online communities to take them apart -- I think they can only be understood through immersion.

Thanks for the compliment. I really wanted to write something that was readable beyond the world of academia.

[tigereye]

243. trust me, I have read many a turgid tome in my own field, and you seemed

to work hard to make what you wrote readable to a more general audience. I mean, think of all those dissertations that no one but the committee, colleagues and the writer ever read, let along the general public.

[boobooday]

255. This is why I'm so glad I wrote about DU

Lots of smart people are reading it here. I really appreciate it. It must be because I started out as a fiction writer -- I have this crazy idea that if you write something you want it to be read!

I'd love to get it to a broader audience. I wanted to call it "The Citizen Protagonist" or something like that, but of course it had to have an academic title with a colon and all.

[Lars39]

80. I had to look twice at your username

to make sure it wasn't Boojetta. :evilgrin:Congratulations!

Signed,
One of the guinea pigs :D

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

82. This is facinating!

Congrats and thanks for posting the link. I'll bookmark this for later reading.

[SidDithers]

83. Congratulations Dr. Castillo!...

downloaded the pdf and, from a quick scan, it looks fascinating. I will try to read it later.

First thing I did, of course, was to search for my name :rofl:

:toast:

Sid

[boobooday]

86. I tapped a rich vein

I love what goes on here. Many academics talk in theoretical terms about new media and politics. I wanted to write about what real people were actually doing and saying online.
:hi:

[GhostofRichardRorty]

160. LOL. Me too! (nt)

[librechik]

88. WHAT a clever boy!

congrats

[EFerrari]

90. Dr. Booboo is a female. :-)

[librechik]

99. feh--I wondered about that, but no clues that Icould see--Sorry Ms Dr.Booboo!

[boobooday]

103. no problem

I've got clues you can't see from there.

[librechik]

107. yes indeed--I'm virtually blind!

I have an MFA in art history--and lesser degrees in MassCom--I know the work you have to do and the material you have to know like your grandma--all the best!

[SoCalDem]

91. Congrats to you..and thanks for the inclusion..

"SoCalDem: Shop-a-liciously destitute, but thoroughly
infotained.."

:rofl:.. I forgot all about that one :rofl:

[boobooday]

92. Wasn't that a lovely thread?

A DU classic. A witty contribution by you.

[biopowertoday]

93. I hope to finish my diss this spring but

perhaps it will be this summer.

Its been a struggle --but at the same time a challenge which I enjoy.


Congratulations. I just downloaded it. Thank you.


I will glance thru for now. I am still looking at other dissertations for nuggets--style, content.



best to your new life:-)

[boobooday]

97. I understand the struggle part!

I took a job ABD, so the pressure was on. I spent a year feeling like the hounds were at my heels.

Best of luck to you as you finish! It will be worth it.

[Bluebear]

95. Did your professor write FLAMEBAIT on it and hand it back?

:)

[boobooday]

96. There were a couple of LOLs

I think in my classes I was sometimes human flamebait!

:hi:

[Cary]

98. Very Cool.

It wasn't a doctoral thesis but I wrote something similar, of ostensibly publishable quality, for a law school jurisprudence class. It counted for our writing requirement so it was supposed to be comparable to writing for the law review.

I had a great professor, the late Grey Dorsey, who had an absolutely fascinating thesis about how jurisprudences evolved using dialectics. Essentially a ruling class used a particular thesis to justify its position as a ruling class. I.e. industrialists using lassaize faire capitalism. Economic power comes first. The class that has the economic power then uses some philosophical underpinng to justify its ascension, and that philosophy becomes the new thesis.

Anyway my paper was about how the religious right was going to use Milton Friedman to justify its ascent. This was in 1983.

Looking back I got a lot of it right. Wish I still had the paper. I'd certainly like to see your thesis too.

[boobooday]

101. That does sound interesting

The development of the frame. 1983 -- even if you used a computer, that was a while ago. Somewhere on a 5 & 1/2 inch?

[Cary]

246. Not even.

It was typed on a manual typewriter.

[Odin2005]

247. Wow, a very prophetic prediction regarding Milton Friedman!

:wow:

[GiveMeFreedom]

100. Congratulations Dr. boobooday

Dr. boobooday,

I humbly offer my congratulations on your achievement:applause:. After having recently discovered DU, I too am amazed at the level of discourse found among the contributors. As a person with a rudimentary education from high school and waiting 30 years to go higher in my educational goals, stories like yours motivate me to keep going and not give up. I of course would be in my late 60's before I have the opportunity to write a dissertation on anything. I do complain a lot though, it's been a lifelong obsession. :-)

[boobooday]

104. I was a "non-traditional" student too

You will really enjoy it. Go for it. I read a story about a woman turning 100 years old, and she was asked if she had any regrets. She said yes, on her 60th she had vowed to learn the violin, but she didn't, and she could have had 40 years of experience by now.

Hope to see you in class someday.

[Kind of Blue]

178. I have to second that, Dr. Boobooday.

:thumbsup: You are an inspiration. Congratulations! And thank you for the link.

[mike_c]

102. a kick and a congratulatory rec!

Congratulations! :kick:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

111. About jokes freepers made on the pic of Bill Clinton leaning against the podium, hand outstretched

I found them funny.

Sue me.

[boobooday]

112. Sometimes they are funny

I won't sue.

[EFerrari]

114. I just wanted to congratulate you on settling on a terrific topic.

Hope it was as fun to do as it is to read.

[boobooday]

115. Once I got rolling and collected my sample

It was pure joy. I'm glad you are enjoying it! I thought that what was going on here was too important not to point out.

[TrogL]

116. That's the abstract. Post the whole damn thing

I'm bored and need something meaty to read.

[boobooday]

119. Here ya go

Meat & potatoes here:

http://www.toofunproductions.com/CastilloDiss.pdf

[TrogL]

124. define "agonistic" - in your context

Perhaps I need a further distinction between adversaries and enemies.

[boobooday]

126. An adversary must be defeated

An enemy must be destroyed.

The Olympics are agonistic. Attacking Iraq was antagonistic.

A democracy should be agonistic -- agreement that we all want the same thing (i.e. a better country) but a competition of ideas about how to get there.

[mmonk]

118. So are we like subjects or

parts of a science experiment?

[boobooday]

121. Subjects yes, but not experimented upon

Just observing public postings. It is an interesting question. I wrote my master's thesis about the Yahoo News Message boards and had to go through human subjects. For this study I was given an exemption. You are a member of the punditocracy now. :-)

[mmonk]

125. Alright!

:woohoo:
I belong to a punditocracy! Sounds great;-)

[Renew Deal]

123. Congrats Dr.

:yourock:

[malaise]

128. This looks so interesting

I haven't read Mouffe in years - loved her work on Gramsci.
I'll head over to ProQuest next week and have a read.

Congrats.

[boobooday]

139. I used "The Democratic Paradox"

When I read it, my mind was blown. It's f'n brilliant.

I posted it online: http://www.toofunproductions.com/CastilloDiss.pdf

[malaise]

143. I'll order a copy

Thanks. I'll start reading your thesis next week.
Was there ever a greater anti-climax than the day after you defended your thesis? :D

[boobooday]

181. No, probably not

I flew home in a daze!

Thanks for reading! It's great to be read. :-)

[yowzayowzayowza]

176. Thx for the link!!!

Interesting read.

:hi:

[tigereye]

130. that's very cool - congratulations!

I've often thought that these communities would be great to analyze.

[Bolo Boffin]

135. "The participants at Free Republic were more likely to assign motivations..."

"The participants at Free Republic were more likely to assign motivations that precluded the agonistic frame."

Very interesting. Is there a way to read this online, or is it better to chase it down through intralibrary loans?

[crispini]

138. She posted a link to it above, early in the thread.

It's way fun. Awfully over my head in bits, but very entertaining.

[crispini]

137. Hahaha I can't believe you have the "moran guy" in there!

Figure 3: The photo that started an internet idiom. I LOVE IT. How fun was this to write? :rofl:

[boobooday]

141. It was an absolute blast

I really enjoyed it once I got going. Putting in the Moran guy, well that was priceless.

:rofl:

[WolverineDG]

144. Damned uppity white woman checking in!

:hi:

Wow, I've never been quoted in a doctoral dissertation before. Do I get some kind of prize for that??? B-)

Although I think I'll tell my family I was picked for my Rudolph Taking Wisconsin Voters to the Polls post instead of the one where I tell Bill Kristol to fuck off...... :blush:

dg

[boobooday]

186. I think you can claim to be "cited" now

As an expert on democratic discourse.

[WolverineDG]

224. Dang! I was hoping for a "major award"

or at least the ability to change my username to WolverineDG PhD. Where's name change amnesty when you need it? :rofl:

Congrats on your PhD! Let us know how your advisors like your dissertation. :)

dg

[boobooday]

230. Oh I defended it

It went pretty well.

It has been much more gratifying to share it with you all.

[MadMaddie]

145. Congrats on completing your PhD!

Glad you posted it here, the Freepers wouldn't really understand what you wrote!

Well..you know I am right...

[boobooday]

187. They could be reading it

But after two or three banishments, now they just look up my IP address when I try to register and preemptively ban me.

[sonias]

147. Congratulations and good look

Your dissertation sounds fascinating.

:yourock:

Sonia

[rucky]

148. Too Cool

[boobooday]

188. I think my next paper might be about the phenomenon of "Rick Rolling"

I'll need that graphic.

:rofl:

[tabatha]

149. I think it awesome

that you have documented (for history) the social interactions between political activists on both sides of the divide.

Excellent.

[liberalhistorian]

151. Did you study any other sites besides DU and

FR? I only have a BA in history/sociology and have not actually done any graduate studies (although I did have a serious relationship with a graduate teaching fellow at one point during my undergraduate studies, which is neither here nor there), but I seem to recall that you need more than one study and one comparative group for these types of things, especially with such numerous and varied sites on the net to choose from.

[boobooday]

189. Well, two is enough for a comparison

And this wasn't an experiment, but you are right, if it was, I would have needed a different strategy.

I did write my Master's thesis about the wild and woolly Yahoo News Message Boards, before they went bye bye.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

152. Congratulations!! How very very cool

and admirable :fistbump:

[BlueJac]

154. way to go............

[Piewhacket]

155. Dr. boobooday. hmm... It has a ring of authority, somehow.

Congratulations. So now what?? lol!

Your IQ is obviously too high to post at FreeRepublic.com,
(but apparently still low enough to understand their screedy snivelings). hey!

Anyway, reading your summary what you seem to be saying is... DUers good, freepers bad.
Sounds right to me. Here's your PhD, and a pint :beer:

Now since you're a Doctor, this boil on my bum has been really....

[Laelth]

156. How awesome! Well done!

I hope you quoted me at least once.

;)

:dem:

-Laelth

[caraher]

157. This thread could not exist on FR

I hope all the lost brain cells from your forays into the pit have grown back!

[Historic NY]

159. Dr Freud would be proud because we are an interesting bunch at times..

then again he would probably shake his head.

[Juan_de_la_Dem]

161. What a great idea for contrast/comparison

Is the entire dissertation published?

[boobooday]

190. Yes, and I've posted a link to the entire thing in the thread here

It is by definition published by your university when you finish, and goes into public databases to be searched by other scholars.

[MrMickeysMom]

162. Wow! Congratulations!

In the course of analyzing Freep and DU, did you have an idea how they compared in numbers of active posters?

[boobooday]

191. I did actually gather data on the number of posts and participation patterns

I also looked at sources.

Here's a brief summary:

DU had significantly more threads than FR, and more participants (at least more individuals started threads).
The biggest difference is the willingness to listen to and respect the opinions of other individuals on the site (of course at FR your own opinion must be labeled "vanity"). FR was also much more dependent on mainstream media sources to begin the conversation.
Significantly more humor and ritual here (community bonding) and more creative.

I collected data on the total number of posts, replies, and topics discussed, as well as sources (links).

[Hekate]

165. Dr. Boobooday, I am thrilled for you -- and for us. Thank you so much for sharing...

I can't believe you posted the whole thing. :wow: Talk about a cutting-edge topic!

I hope you are enjoying a sense of accomplishment. What next?

Hekate

:yourock:

[boobooday]

192. I am an assistant professor now

So it's the tenure race (if I don't get laid off first).

Thanks!

[ThomCat]

166. Congratulations!

:applause:

[mythyc]

167. this is absolutely fascinating! may i have a copy?

I don't have time to read through this whole thread, but am bookmarking it so I can later. Burke's a good model, and I love that you close the abstract with Nietzsche. PMing you, I've been doing work in literary theory similar to this in analyzing early to mid century literature. There's one article series in particular that will be of high interest to you.

Thanks much for your hard work! No doubt DU is the preferable model.

:dem:

[Hekate]

173. I successfully copied the pdf to my desktop from the link above (see also here)...

http://www.toofunproductions.com/CastilloDiss.pdf

I plan to read it at my leisure.

Hekate

[mythyc]

Thanks Hekate! I'll be printing this out and reading as soon as I have some time

juggling 3 novels and two books of theory right now, but should be able to fit this in in a few weeks. can't wait!

:dem:

[mythyc]

174. delete. (dupe)

:dem:

[Dystopian]

168. KandR.

Awesome!

peace~

[Posteritatis]

169. RandK.

[man4allcats]

170. Gee! That's exactly what I would have said.

"Yeah right, man4allcats. You couldn't even navigate your way through the first agonistic approach."

Oh well. Probably not. Nevertheless, congrats Dr. booboo! :toast::thumbsup: :toast::thumbsup: :toast: :thumbsup:

[Hekate]

171. Just a note to say I've started reading your Diss and it's fun! Thanks!

I see you were at SBCC and UCSB back when, so: Greetings from the Central Coast.

Hekate

[boobooday]

193. Are you in SB? It's hubby's home town

He's a real Santa Barbarian!

[Hekate]

240. We live in Goleta and hubby teaches Computer Information Systems at SBCC...

We came from the opposite ends of the country and met here -- me from Hawaii and he from the Bronx.

Btw, I sat up all night reading your dissertation, it was that fun.

I understand the exhaustion after it's over -- there was one fugue-like moment where I passed the room where I'd written the thing and thought, "Oh, I've got to get back in there and... wait! I'm done!" I finished it during the run-up to the invasion of Iraq, and kept plugging away promising myself that as soon as it was in I would join the anti-everything-Bush movement, whatever form that took. And I did.

Enjoy!

Hekate

[boobooday]

256. Ah, a Goletian! We were right off Glen Annie for years

By Dos Pueblos. I love Goleta. I really miss the Natural Cafe. My MIL is still there, in downtown SB.

It took me months to get over that feeling -- it hung over my every waking moment for two years at least. I still sometimes suddenly think, "I should be working on the diss." And then like you, wait! It's done! When I finally got the diploma and hung it on the wall, it got better.

Thanks so much for reading!

[myrna minx]

177. Congratulations Doctor boobooday.

:toast: I'm looking forward to reading your argument.

[tclambert]

179. So you found a way for your doctoral dissertation to justify you reading blogs all day.

Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. You deserve a PhD.

I heard someone was working on a dissertation based on icanhascheezburger.com. Theirs is a more narrow study of the linguistic phenomenon known as lolspeak. Srsly.

[boobooday]

195. You busted me!

How did you know! It felt like a triumph just to be able to study something I found interesting.

My next study:

"A comparative analysis of Rick Rolling."

[ismnotwasm]

194. Cool

I do have access to ProQuest, and I will definitely take the time to read it. I'm actually very interested in the cultures that arise from discussion boards, and how they are presented and perhaps, internalized.

I couldn't do a thesis on it though, more like armchair psychology!

Congratulations

[Jim Lane]

196. Thanks, I've added links in the Wikipedia articles.

I don't know if the links will survive, because some Wikipedians don't like linking to doctoral dissertations. For now, at least, you're included in the external links section in the articles about and .

[boobooday]

198. Hey, that's cool!

Thanks!

[Jim Lane]

226. My pleasure. Now we'll see if the links survive.

The DU and FR articles on Wikipedia attract so much left-versus-right edit warring that they're both among the few articles that are officially on "article probation", a heightened level of scrutiny by the community.

Down the road, when you yourself are someone's thesis advisor and your advisee is selecting a topic, you could continue your internet focus by suggesting "Political Edit Warring on Wikipedia". There's quite a rich vein to be mined there. For the academic, the advantage is that, like posting history on DU and FR, it's almost all available online, so you can work with the raw data.

[boobooday]

228. That is an interesting topic!

I hope to teach a seminar on politics and new media next year, so I will bring it up.

[geiger]

199. Congratulations. I just started my doctorate....

[boobooday]

202. Good luck! Enjoy the ride!

It's not just an education, it's an adventure.

:hi:

[trumad]

200. I've often said you could write a book about this place....

Well--- a dissertation is just as good. Brilliant--Brilliant---Brilliant.

[boobooday]

204. I feel really good about choosing DU for the study

The entire time I was reading other scholars writing in theoretical terms about online communities, I was thinking about DU and asking myself, "why doesn't anybody look at what people are actually doing?" So many elites are dismissive without even knowing what they are dismissing.

I felt my contribution was to write in defense of the online political citizen, who is so often maligned in mainstream media!

[trumad]

212. I think your next dissertation should be about the addiction to this place...

I tried to give it up several times but can't. I've been posting since 2001, and expect to be posting until I'm dead.

The fact of the matter is, it is still, in my mind, the number one place on the web for political information and thought. I bristle at those who diss this site as if they are too good to post here. Note the top blogs on the Net---TPM, Atrios, Fire Dog, etc, never mention this joint because they think they will be labeled as far left goofballs if they do.

Oh sure, we have our loonies---every site does.... but in my mind, it's one of the biggest political think tanks on the net.

Not to take away from your brilliant work--- but this place offers up enough material to write 10 dissertations.

Again--- brilliant work Doc.

[crispini]

215. Reading here means you will likely know what happens way before anyone else.

I am amazed at how easy it is to be well informed just by hanging around here. People bring stuff here from everywhere. It's like a human RSS aggregator, or the world's best collection of editors and commentators. Amazing.

[trumad]

220. yep---

Honestly---I see talking head Democrats on the tube that could use a shot of DU before they open their traps. I'm sure some of them do.

I hear guys like Matt Damon discuss topics and I swear he picked some of the stuff up here at DU... That's a good thing because at least you know he's well informed.

[boobooday]

216. Hmmmmm, sounds like you might be willing to be interviewed

For the article on addiction?

;-)

[trumad]

221. I've tried to pull back from this place a couple of times...

thing is-- I love politics---and this site is the best site to stay informed. I've made promises in the past to slow down on my posting---- but--I read something and my nature says--- reply----reply----reply. ---and I do--- it's a vicious cycle and I can't get out! ;-)

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

203. Congratulations, Dr. Boobooday!

Your piece has shown me another side to the term "agnostic", which I always thought of in a spiritual sense. Would you say that DU and FR equally fall into the pitfall of "virtual vengeance"? Or have you observed that DU has better control of that? I'd like to think that we DUers have learned from our mistakes.

[boobooday]

206. We all take our "virtual vengeance" -- DUers do it with gusto

The real question is whether or not we stop there. In other words, the danger is that virtual vengeance will substitute for real action.

I brought Nietzsche in because of his concept of "slave morality" which says that religious beliefs that tell us things like "the meek shall inherit the earth" and that justice will come to all in the afterlife. This allows for us to practice virtual vengeance and defer justice. This was much more prominent at FR. DUers were more likely to take their virtual vengeance while still working for real justice in the here and now.

[Buzz Clik]

207. I scanned the first 2/3 of it. Fascinating stuff. Let me point this out:

Quoting from page 102 (in which the a Freeper is being quoted):

Having said that the drive-by media will miss no chance to pillory
the Adminstration on what ever feeble grounds that they can come up
with. Anything to boost the Dems, eh?

I don't read the FreeRepublic at all, but that comment is typical of every passionate conservative I've ever known. But that's not the interesting part: we are having EXACTLY the same conversation here. DUers are convinced that the media are in the pocket of the GOP and out to get the president.

I was also taken by some of the consistent statistical trends in the dissertation. DUers post about twice as many threads as Freepers, but the Freepers participate far more in the posted threads. This gives me the impression that DUers are passionate about initiating threads, but Freepers are far more interesting in talking about a given subject.

[boobooday]

208. I think it was also a reflection of the different cultures

Freepers are discouraged (strongly) from starting a thread with one of their own ideas, or posting a "duplicate" link to a story. They also post a lot of "phatic" type posts, that is, posts that just amount to "checking in," as in "prayers up." They have numerous threads like this, where there are many posts, but not much back and forth.

Definitely more centralized there, more oriented towards authority. Not surprising . . .

[Buzz Clik]

211. In my follow up (just above your comment), I found that you said a similar thing.

You did a great job.

It would have been fun to be on your committee. (I am on the faculty of a humble little school 2 hours to the north of IU. My responsibilities have recently shifted to allow me more interaction with liberal arts students. It's been a breath of fresh air after a couple decades of science only.)

Congrats.

[Buzz Clik]

209. As a follow-up:

The dissertation goes on:

It is clear that while online citizens are critical of corporate media across
ideological lines, the assignment of motivations for the perceived bias differed between
conservative and liberal online citizens. Members of Free Republic shared a belief that
there is a distinct liberal bias in the mainstream media even while they turned to these
outlets for news and information. They generally attributed more credibility to partisan
elites than to their fellow citizens and although they were enthusiastic about the
opportunity to discuss politics with each other, they adopted a more centralized model in
their patterns of interaction. They limited the number of conversations by assigning
legitimacy almost exclusively to elite mainstream and partisan sources, and they strictly
enforced rules that prohibit duplicate posts of the same story, while marking citizen
sources as presumptuous (at best) by requiring a “vanity” tag....

...At Democratic Underground, the pattern of sourcing offered a different picture
altogether. In contrast to FR’s orderly, disciplined progression, DU presents an
environment that is fast moving and chaotic. In the lobby, “official” headlines compete
with a cacophony of voices, reasoned and unruly, and sometimes both at the same time,
shouting, cajoling, teasing, questioning, and cursing. Threads are started at a rate of
several per minute at peak hours and can easily scroll off the front page within minutes of
posting. Hundreds of conversations in dozens of forums are taking place at once.
Vulgarity and elevated prose share the same space and even coexist in the same messages
in a uniquely political vernacular that celebrates the role of the forensic and the emotional
in political persuasion (see Brader, 2006; Neumann, et al, 2007; Marcus, 2002).

While the participants at DU were still clearly loyal to traditional print sources
when it came to posting links to news articles and editorials, they also exhibited an
overall pattern of dispersion, generating many threads with fewer participants per thread,
more original threads, and more links to citizen media sources. In choosing sources to
link, the participants at DU not only took a more informal approach in their presentation
of sources; they also seemed equally interested in the opinions and ideas of their peers, or
at least tolerant of their expression.

Outstanding analysis.

[boobooday]

214. Thanks very much

I think it would have been cool to have you on my committee. Thanks for reading it!

Your earlier post intrigued me. I think I might know where you are. :-)

[SlingBlade]

210. Congrats boobooday

:yourock:
And I always thought reading anything on F.R Would actually
LOWER one's I.Q :)

[tanyev]

213. Oooo-eeee! Now DU is "big stuff all right", too.

(Quote from FRs main page: Oh, we're big stuff all right)

Congratulations!

[boobooday]

261. AND we have emoticons!

:yourock:

[Turbineguy]

217. Burke's comic corrective

So that's what that is. Thanks! Now I know. I shall endeavor to apply this force, in particular to persons like Billo, Rushbo and other il-luminaries.

I hope to read further in the next few days.

Many Congrats!

[boobooday]

219. When I listen to Obama, I hear it all the time

I think it is the source of his power.

:hi:

[tomg]

222. Congratulations on the defense. I am really looking

forward to reading your diss. About 35 years ago I was completely blown out the door when I first read Burke's Grammar of Motives and Rhetoric of Motives as a grad student. Good luck on the tenure track.

[krispos42]

223. Very interesting.

I spot-read about a third of it, overall.

[B3Nut]

227. Congratulations Dr.!

And thank you for posting the link to the full dissertation, it is so far highly fascinating.

Great work, congratulations on a job well done!

Todd in Cheesecurdistan

[Lucinda]

232. I've been saying for years that this place is a dissertation waiting to happen!

Congrats!
I was thinking Psych and not Mass Comm though. :)

[boobooday]

234. I heard somebody say that while I was in the middle of writing mine

Had to bite my tongue.

:hi:

[Lucinda]

235. It may have been me! I've said it often over the last few years.

There are so many possibilities for subject matter here. I think you made a great choice! :)

[boobooday]

238. You can't take on such a large project without having a passion for it

At least I can't. It may very well have been you. :hug:

[Two Americas]

236. very interesting, thanks

"When I dream about the moonlight on the Wabash..."

Don't know why that tune keeps running through my head...

[boobooday]

239. Thanks for YOUR contribution

:hug:

[BlooInBloo]

237. Grats on jumping through the final hoop!

[dalaigh lllama]

241. Interesting how much form (format) influences content

Your description of the differences in structuring on the two sites struck me as manifestations of our disparate world views: first, it seems they like to "follow the leader" (one post which all may then respond to) whereas we tend to each want our individual shout-out with a multitude of OP's on the same subject. Second, I was not aware of their discouragement of an individual's POV, as evidenced by having original posts dubbed "vanity posts" if they were not referencing a news item. (I'm trying to imagine how often someone like Nance Greggs would post her amazing essays here if each one had to be dubbed a "vanity post.") Lastly on this: the format in FR has remained virtually unchanged since its inception, whereas the format here is constantly being "tweaked" by Skinner et al to make it better. The former seems quite like a conservative value (The "good old days" trump trying something new); the latter embodies what I see as progressive goals as succinctly summed up by Obama: "In order to form a more perfect union..."

And then there are our mirrored similarities.

Here's from FR from your dissertation:

Participants maica and Laverne discussed how the media referenced President Bush. They noted that he was called “President Bush” at the first mention and only “Mr.
Bush” or “Bush” after that. Maica suspected this was a slur towards President Bush, asserting that former President Clinton was always referred to with his title. Laverne cited style-guide rules (Msg. #119), but maica refused to accept their use as totally innocent of malice towards the president:

Years ago, when I first noticed the Mr Bush usage, I wrote to several
reporters and editorial page editors and got replies, telling me of their
‘style’ for name usage. That is for print. TV reporters picked up on it when W became president.

The same reporters do not say Mr Kerry, Mr Obama, Mrs Clinton or Mr
McCain. They always say Senator for the above names. So I KNOW that
the Mr Bush is a deliberate diss. (Msg. #128).

And here's a thread I read here at DU not long ago:

dixiegrrrrl: Republican Senators calling our Pres. "obama", NOT Pres. Obama.

Grassley now on floor and has done it twice in 3 minutes...

I never heard Bush referred to as just "Bush" in Congressional speeches.

(Followed by thirty-some responses expanding on this.)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=8173898

On a lighter note, I LOVED the expression "distempered elites." It sounds so much like a trip to the vet is in order. :D
And I have to confess, after I understood what you meant by "epic frame" and the freepers' fondness for this POV, I couldn't help mentally substituting "EPIC FAIL."

Altogether fascinating to read. O would some power the giftie gie us to see ourselves as others see us. Thanks, Dr. boobooday. You've been a great "giftie.":toast:

[boobooday]

257. Isn't the structural thing interesting?

Everything about the two sites demonstrates the different world views. I remember while I was writing, Jim Robinson announced a "beta" test of an "updated" FR, and I thought wow! Then it went up and it was exactly the same!

I saw that thread about the titles and reporters and had to laugh!

I loved the term "distempered elites" as well. My advisor wrote a book that was about how elites preclude democracy by painting the demos as "distempered," (unfit to rule) and I thought immediately of DU and FR. This is where the citizens come to point out the distempered elites! They are unfit to rule!

Thanks so much for reading!

[Kurovski]

242. Wow! Congrats!

I've got it bookmarked, and I'm absolutely going to read it as i'm certain it contains many references to me.

But seriously, what a great idea that was. :thumbsup:

[Muttocracy]

244. wow, I went to grad school for the wrong stuff

you had way more fun! :)

[boobooday]

259. Ssshhhhh, don't tell

It was all serious and stuff. ;-)

Actually, I did almost kill myself trying to keep up with you guys, as my sample frame covered the two hours of Bush's last SOTU address. My arm almost fell off.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

248. Congratulations from one Ph.D. to another

It's a long haul, and you made it!

:yourock:

[boobooday]

260. Thanks, Lydia!

Whew. Big time Whew.

[Odin2005]

249. Congradulations, Doc!!! The paper is AMAZING. You even mention the MORAN GUY!!!

:woohoo: :rofl:

Your talking about how we are more likely to use "comic frames" compared to the Freepers is very interesting. Shows a very distinct psychological difference, we are more likely to see flawed human beings whereas the Freepers are more likely to see evil demons that must be destroyed.

[boobooday]

265. You sum it up nicely

And yes, it was very satisfying to include the "moran" guy. ;-)

[tavalon]

251. I am about half way through your dissertation (that's a book's worth!)

and I'm fascinated and pleased. While I think you have something of a bias towards DU if only for our technical advantages, you have been balanced and taught me a lot about a site I don't go to for a number of reasons. The format hurts my head almost as much as the philosophy. Another reason I don't go there is I've heard too often that we are two sides of the same coin and man, that grated on me. But, in a manner, your thesis shows that to be somewhat true, at least in certain aspects. Our pithy contests, our teasing of trolls and a few other things that escape the mind right now. I'm sure I'll have more to say when I finish you thesis, as I in fact will.

Thank you for sharing. I'm guessing you shared this with Free Republic as well? I'd actually like to know. Seems like a perfect bridging opportunity as you referenced in your thesis.

And lastly, if they don't have the option to edit after submission, that alone could account for a lot of the spelling errors we tease them about. I can't count the number of times I've posted something, reread it, and then quickly edited for spelling.

Thank you again!

[boobooday]

258. My ultimate goal was to defend "we the people," Freepers and all

The most striking commonality between the two sites is the shared perception that elites have too much power, and that it is the obligation of the citizen to get involved in the process. We all want more democracy.

It is amazing to observe how the ideologies are manifested in every aspect of the two websites, including the technical affordances. It seemed obvious even on the surface, but as I began to collect my evidence, it continued to surprise me how it played out in any number of ways.

I would love to share this with the Freepers, but I cannot seem to get posting privileges there. Someone in this thread linked it to their Wikipedia page, so I suppose they will find it. Democracy isn't served if one side is utterly defeated, and I think they deserve better leaders, and better narratives than they've been getting from their leaders.

We seem to be doing a little better. :-)

Thanks so much for reading.

[tavalon]

262. Sure, you've actually opened my eyes a bit

Sure, this side seems to have more right (by my definition - how circular!) but there are commonalities and in the faceless cyberland, we can be so mean to each other but really, we're all just bald apes and one big thing we have in common with them is that we care - a lot! I don't think there's an apatheticunderground.com or an apatheticrepublic.com. So many of humans don't care one way or the other. At least we're passionate, on both sites.

[boobooday]

263. LOL I love that

"apatheticunderground"

:rofl:

[tavalon]

264. I didn't check but I doubt the domain is taken

but neither do I think anyone cares.

[Spazito]

266. Fascinating to read!

Choosing the time period you did, January of 08, to do your analysis based on the threads posted on both sites was, in itself, fascinating to me. You quoted the following on page 232:

"The tensions between and within these communities can be seen as the “friction” created
by the struggle to avoid total closure and total dissemination (Mouffe, 2000, p. 98)."

It struck me that the stresses on the foundations of each site were at their highest, with some on Free Republic wanting a more flexible framework in which to participate, ie the Rudy supporters, but were, instead, shut out. On DU, the opposite was occurring, where some wanted the reduction of the flexibility that allowed a wide-ranging discourse on the candidates.

Both sites, it seems to me, stayed true to their foundations throughout.


Fascinating! Thanks for posting your dissertation so all could read. It was both educational and entertaining. This is a first for me, I have never, repeat NEVER read 250ish pages on-line before, I enjoyed every page. Thank you again for this.

[boobooday]

269. Wow, thank you Spazito

I'm so glad you enjoyed reading it.

:hi:

[bananas]

270. Wow, I'm in footnote 81!

It will be interesting to see if those predictions hold true!