NTSB: Plane Crew Saw Significant Ice Before (Buffalo)Crash

[tekisui]

Source: AP

CLARENCE, N.Y. – A federal official says the crew of a commuter plane that crashed near Buffalo discussed "significant ice buildup" on the wings and windshield before the crash. National Transportation Safety Board spokesman Steve Chealander also says the twin turboprop aircraft went through a "severe pitch and roll" after positioning its flaps for a landing.

Continental Connection Flight 3407 from Newark, N.J., was coming in for a landing when it went down in light snow and fog late Thursday. It was a few miles short of Buffalo-Niagara International Airport.

It crashed into a house. Forty-nine people aboard the plane and one person on the ground died.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090213/ap_on_re_us/plane_into_home

[remoulade]

1. I guess the "black" boxes were checked really fast. This all sounds about right.

They will be checking for asymmetrical flap deployment.
\

[DrDan]

2. yep - unfortunately

[av8rdave]

6. It may not even be assymetry

Often with iced wings, a change in configuration can cause a portion of the airfoil to stall. It one wing stalled before the other, the situation would be particularly nasty particularly fast.

[remoulade]

11. For certain, I was mentioning the somewhat faint possibility of one flap being jammed.

Not likely but possible I would say...remember the stripped acme leadscrew on the Alaska airlines flight?

[av8rdave]

16. I do....however, that led to the loss of almost the entire horizontal stabilizer assembly

An asymmetric flap by itself is generally not to bad to deal with (I've had it happen twice). It gives you a handful of airplane, but it's manageable. However, throw in some other things with it, and maybe not.

[remoulade]

17. Sure...in the dark, in the soup, watching for the outer marker/beacon,

fiddling with radios changing from rapcon to tower, cabin lights, checklist, looking at the hsi and outside for the runway both at the same time. All that stuff needs attention even when all the machinery's working perfectly.

[av8rdave]

26. That's why we use crews. Someone is always soley responsible for flying the airplane

[remoulade]

29. Yep...that's the theory.

...

[av8rdave]

42. Also, Part 121 and Part 135 aircraft have flap assymetry protection

Usually won't allow more than a 2 degree difference in trailing edge flap differential before locking out the flaps.

The "theory" you refer to is actually practiced pretty strictly.

[Mrs. Overall]

3. Why did some witnesses claim to have seen the plane on fire in the sky before it crashed?

If there wasn't a fire, what were they seeing?

[Occam Bandage]

5. Witnesses are terribly unreliable when it comes to disasters and the like. nt

[hedgehog]

37. When you experience something outside your normal life, it's not

uncommon to remember things that didn't happen or events out of sequence. The brain works retroactively to construct an explanation for what is experienced. In this case, the sight of the fireball afterward may be mistakenly pushed to before the crash as the mind attempts to find a reason for the crash.

A related phenomenon: hearing your name stand out from background chatter.

[TahitiNut]

4. That Q400 has significant de-icing capabilities, on both leading edge and props.

Something doesn't add up. :shrug:

[TrogL]

8. I've been on a similar plane in similar conditions

The ice builds up really quickly.

[TahitiNut]

13. I flew in Horizon Air's Dash-8's many times in freezing rain and such ...

... when I lived in eastern Washington. They were truly "rough & ready" aircraft able to take a lot of bad weather. They sure weren't the quietest or most comfortable, but the pilots seemed to have a lot of confidence in the plane.

[remoulade]

9. Yes. If they are activated, and in a timely fashion.

They MAY have not observed structural icing until it had built up significantly and if the Autopilot was on there may have been
cross-control issues that they also might have not noticed. I'm not saying that's what happened, just that it could have been.

[tekisui]

10. The air frame de-ice function had been turned on before the mention of ice:

The crew subsequently discussed "significant ice build-up" on the windshield and wings on the aircraft, Mr Chealander said.

The official noted that before these comments were made, the plane's "air frame de-ice" function had been switched on.

One minute before the end of the recording, the plane's landing gear was put down. Twenty seconds later the crew repositioned the aircraft's wing flaps to slow it for landing.

Within seconds of the flaps being moved, the aircraft experienced a "series of severe pitches and rolls", Mr Chealander said.

Just before the recording ended, the crew tried to raise the landing gear and reposition the flaps, he added.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7889764.stm

[TahitiNut]

14. Sounds like the drag slowed them below stall speed. No?

:shrug:

[DemoTex]

25. Conversely, the stall speed of an airfoil deformed by ice often increases.

Configuration change exacerbates the problem. Line pilots become test pilots. The American Eagle ATR-72 crash at Roselawn, Indiana, in October 1994 comes to mind.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19941031-1

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

35. Tail stall, maybe?

It's a T-tail airplane, and I understand they can be more susceptible to tail stalls, especially with flaps extended.

[slutticus]

28. I wonder if one of the flaps was stuck and the other one deployed?

Is that even possible (or are they linked together somehow?)

[AntiFascist]

15. Tinfoil hat question...

how hard would it be to disable the de-ice mechanism or cause it to malfunction? Didn't someone on DU speculate about something like this in the recent small plane crash involving a Republican whistleblower?

[remoulade]

18. Easy for a mechanic. Was there something about that particular flight that

would attract the attention of a potential terrorist?

[AntiFascist]

20. There's this thread...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5046859

[remoulade]

21. Ah, yes ineed...I can recommend post #5 over there.

:D

[hedgehog]

38. It would be just as easy to blame anti-Semites since a local Temple cantor was killed.

Or Alison Des Forges, an expert on the Rawanda genocide, would make a good target.



Sometimes bad things happen. In this case, I'd be checking maintenance records for shoddy work before I'd be looking for a criminal mastermind.

[AntiFascist]

40. I might agree with you...

if this were an isolated incident.

[AntiFascist]

41. Also, Occam's razor is evident in post #18...

"easy for a mechanic"

[TrogL]

22. Oh puleeeez don't get them started again

Planes do crash due to icing.

[AntiFascist]

27. How many of these particular aircraft have crashed due to icing?

What are the odds?

[remoulade]

30. The odds are about the same as winning the powerball.

But people do win it now and then.

[AntiFascist]

31. So the fact that one of the most popular 9-11 widows...

who happened to be one of the biggest threats to the Bush Admin, happened to be on the plane, was just a huge cosmic coinkidink.

[remoulade]

33. not huge, not cosmic...just a regular old terran one. Like millions every day.

:shrug:

[AntiFascist]

34. there is a history of similar coincidences, so I guess I see your point

:shrug:

If I were the cosmic AG I would be asking questions.

[Occam Bandage]

36. Well, yes. You can always find coincidences everywhere.

If on a given day a given event has a one-in-a-million chance of happening to you, it will happen to six thousand seven hundred people every day.

[midnight]

19. It sure does not add up.

[FightingIrish]

7. Last night DUer Aviation Pro posted very valid information

about the radio communications with the flight controllers and the occurrence of icing conditions. This was shortly after the story broke. Hours later, Anderson Cooper was flailing with dumb questions and unsubstantiated rumors about what might have happened. Sometimes I think DU is a very valuable source for good information.

[EFerrari]

12. The last time there was a tsunami warning here, I got it from DU more than an hour

before our local teevee news gave it to us 15 minutes before the window. Nothing happened that time but you bet DU is a valuable resource!

[stray cat]

23. It is scary how fast and sudden everything can come to an end.

[malaise]

24. Four Jamaicans died in the crash

three from one family - father, mother and teenage daughter and another man. Lots of Jamaicans live in Buffalo, New York.

[spanone]

32. that's too sad

[malaise]

39. Heard on the news that they're all from the same family

The fourth person was the wife's sister.
They've lived in the US for over 20 years. That was a horrible crash. I can't imagine those last few minutes.

Nice to see Pres Obama not only offer sympathy to the families, but mention the 9/11 widow, Beverly Eckert.