How to be an Ally to Sex Workers

[lightningandsnow]

I'm not a sex worker myself, but I support the sex workers' rights movement. I found this, and I think everyone should read it:

“How to Be an Ally to Sex Workers” by SWOP-Chicago

1) Don’t Assume. Don’t assume you know why a person is in the sex industry. We’re not all trafficked or victims of abuse. Some people make a choice to enter this industry because they enjoy it, others may be struggling for money and have less of a choice.

2) Be Discreet and respect personal boundaries. If you know a sex worker, it’s OK to engage in conversation in dialogue with them in private, but respect their privacy surrounding their work in public settings. Don’t ask personal questions such as “does your family know what you do?” If a sex worker is not “out” to their friends, family, or co-workers, it’s not your place to tell everyone what they do.

3) Don’t Judge. Know your own prejudices and realize that not everyone shares the same opinions as you. Whether you think sex work is a dangerous and exploitative profession or not is irrelevant compared to the actual experiences of the person who works in the industry. It’s not your place to pass judgment on how another person earns the money they need to survive.

4) Watch You Language. Cracking jokes or using derogatory terms such as “hooker”, “whore”, “slut”, or “ho” is not acceptable. While some sex workers have “taken back” these words and use them among themselves, they are usually used to demean sex workers when spoken by outsiders.

5) Address Your Bias Against Sex Workers. If you have a underlying fear that all sex workers are bad people and full of diseases, then perhaps these are issues within yourself that you need to address. In fact, the majority of sex workers practice safer sex than their peers and get tested regularly.

More tips at http://deepthroated.wordpress.com/2009/02/08/how-to-be-an-ally-to-sex-workers/

Seriously, read it. It's important.

[lightningandsnow]

1. Kicking...

[lightningandsnow]

2. Self-kicking, one last time.

[Sparkly]

3. I agree that it's important.

And hardly every discussed!

[Blue_Tires]

4. interesting

i never knew "whore" was considered derogatory in the industry...

[eridani]

180. Just in the context of sex work, I think.

Being a corporate whore is a whole different kettle of fish.

[Blue_Tires]

5. ttt

[blogslut]

6. Too late to recommend

But not too late to kick! :hi:

[NashVegas]

7. I Interviewed One of NY's Finest

Who was, for a while, rated the #1 call girl in the city. There were two things of importance she had to say, IMO.

#1. Sex work divided her from her family, because it was something she was ashamed to speak about with them.

#2. There aren't enough support organizations that help sex workers get out of the business and transition to a "normal" lifestyle, whatever that is. When she got out of jail, she had no idea where to turn for help making that transition.

I support sex workers' rights, including the right to not be manipulated by moneyed interests who would love to see prostitution legalized so they can get into the business without fear of arrest.


Just sayin' ....

[FreakinDJ]

8. Its a choice some make because they "Prefer it"

so I don't buy into the whole "They all need to be saved from Satan"

[NashVegas]

14. Who Said Anything About Satan?

Unless, by "satan," you mean, "Economic venturers who, themselves, don't go out on calls or offer lap dances."

It's worth noting the full blog post of the OP doesn't think offering support to someone who wants to get out of the business rates a mention as something you could do to be a sex worker's friend.

[Hello_Kitty]

130. Of course they don't mention that.

The people who run the blog would never want to lose their cash cows discourage people from entering the "empowering" field of sex work.

[MattBaggins]

75. Its a choice some make because they "Prefer it"

Bullshit

[Shardik]

172. Wha???

Hey, many people enjoy fucking. BFG.

[girl gone mad]

181. But no one enjoys fucking people they aren't attracted to..

and attractive people generally don't hire prostitutes.

[Shardik]

184. And where is that data from?

An attractive person on a time line in a strange city?

[Heidi]

18. Was she ashamed of her job, or worried that she'd be unfairly judged?

Because if she was afraid of being unfairly judged, you can bet she could have found women in her own family who were trading sex for money in one way or another under the guise of a stable marriage.

[NashVegas]

24. It Wasn't Something She Could Exactly Go Home and Say, "Hey Guess What My New Job Is?"

Yeah, we all trade sex for emotional and financial security, blah blah blah.

Find me one woman who got pregnant out of the expression of a physical desire, or desire to be a mother, who would say, "yes, I'd be a-okay for my fetus to grow up and work in a profession that puts a dollar value on an act that added something priceless to my life," and I'll show you someone who needs a therapist.


That's not a judgment, it's simply reality.

[Eryemil]

"That's not a judgment, it's simply reality."

No, it isn't.

It is the dominant belief, in a society that has sought to control sexuality (and female sexuality in specially) since the dawn of our race.
But it is far from universal.

[NashVegas]

49. Yes. It Is.

It's just not your reality, but it is the reality for the majority population of the planet.

The OP is a list of "top ways to be an ally to sex workers" and not a single one is offering them help and support when they want to get out of the business.

That is fucked up.

Or did your mom and dad bounce you on their knees and say, "honey, some day you are going to grow up and make up to $2k a night giving head"?

[Scout]

52. unfortunately, some people seem to think giving head to strangers

is a fine way to make a living.

don't know HOW DESPERATE i would have to be to give blow jobs for money.

some poor deluded women think they are a big deal because men want to pay them for a fuck :shrug:

[Eryemil]

58. I personally would be baffled if they tried to pay me!

Then again, if all the men I've given head to over the years would have given me $5...

[Eryemil]

53. Appeal to popularity, common logical fallacy

"It's just not your reality, but it is the reality for the majority population of the planet."
Appeal to popularity, common logical fallacy

The majority of humanity believes that there is some kind of deity or another that watches them masturbate, fuck, eat and so on.
As I said earlier, what humans might or might not believe is inconsequential. We're intrinsically irrational beings.

My mother, like me hoped I would go to university and pursue a post-graduate degree. Is sort of a family traditional.
Like me however, she wouldn't care one way or the other if I fucked others for money.
In fact, also like me, she'd be much more concerned if I said I wanted to join the military.

[Scout]

56. well you might possibly have a point if fucking strangers for money or joining

the military were one's only options.

i wouldn't want my kid to do either of those things, boy or girl.

[Eryemil]

59. Who says it has anythign to do with choice or your desires as a parent?

I think I might have given the impression that a parents wish for their children are actually relevant. My mistake.
My mother could believe whatever she wanted, that's inconsequential. Unfortunately, for the sake of family gatherings we get along splendidly well and are of the same mind on most issues.

I used those examples more as a spectrum between what society finds reprehensible and what actually bothers me.

[NashVegas]

62. Talk About Fallacy ....

The reality is the majority population in every country on earth, regardless of religious beliefs, does not find the sex trade to be an occupation to brag about.

Please. Find me one example, one study anywhere, that contradicts this. You can't, because it doesn't exist.

[Eryemil]

69. I don't quite think you know what fallacy means

But it simply does not matter to begin with. As I said before, people believe a lot of stupid, childish, inane and utterly unreasonable things and the more of them you pile on top of the other the more stupid they become as a whole.

Think of all of the things, that throughout history have been considered both morally reprehensible and perfectly fine and you just might understand.

[NashVegas]

73. So, You Couldn't Find That Study, Huh?

A shame.

[Eryemil]

82. ...

"The reality is the majority population in every country on earth, regardless of religious beliefs, does not find the sex trade to be an occupation to brag about."
Have I disputed this at any moment? You seem to be under the impression that I am somehow saying otherwise.

What I DID say was the following:
But it simply does not matter to begin with. As I said before, people believe a lot of stupid, childish, inane and utterly unreasonable things and the more of them you pile on top of the other the more stupid they become as a whole.
Think of all of the things, that throughout history have been considered both morally reprehensible and perfectly fine and you just might understand.

The concept is not that difficult to understand for fuck's sake. Just because a lot of people believe something does not make it right or true.
People did once overwhelmingly believe that owning slaves was their right. People also use to believe that females were nothing more than vessels for sperm to grow in.

THIS is what an appeal of popularity is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

[NashVegas]

134. Horsehockey

What society thinks does too matter.

Not only do you have to change the attitudes of non-traders, you have to change the attitudes of those on the inside as well. Those not signed on are never going to let you have this one because there are too many sane, rational parents trying to keep emotionally healthy homes, who don't want their kids growing up to be prostitutes - and they have all the political and publishing power to shape opinion.

When someone who was at the very top of the heap, even, one of the most successful prostitutes in the history of the business, is separated from their familial support system because of the shame they feel over their gig, that's fact the business is damaging and you can't wish that away. When this same person notes what she needed most was support for getting out of the business, and the OP doesn't think that kind of support is something someone in the sex trade needs, it's pretty fucking obvious the OP blogger is pro-exploitation, not too far off par from NAMBLA.

[CraftyGal]

149. It is not pro-exploitation!

I get pissed off when I hear, yet another poor girl being exploited. Yes for 80% of the sex workers they have been forced into prostitution by a pimp, by a family member or a loved one. I can't deny that with the women that are on the streets, who are the ones that participate in survival prostitution. These are the ones we see. What about the "masseuses", the "escorts", the porn Actors and Actresses? They are also part of the Sex Work Industry. The blogger's opinions are definitely not on part to NAMbLA's.

Why can't people treat sex workers as human beings? That is all the blogger was asking. If this was your sister, family member or spouse, wouldn't you treat them with respect?

CraftyGal

[NashVegas]

152. If This Was My Sister, Brother, Etc

I would want them to have people in their lives giving them real emotional support. People who let them be happy when they're happy, who let them be pissed off when they're pissed off, and be sad when they're sad. That's what it is to be treated like a human.

People who get emotional support tend to get spines, and walk away from situations where they're being manipulated and exploited. Why do you reckon the OP blog doesn't think sex trade workers need emotional support?

[Sparkly]

157. They aren't necessarily "being manipulated and exploited."

There are adults who choose sex work, despite whatever you may think of it.

As one once said, some people think cleaning toilets is filthy and degrading, but we don't put people in jail for it.

[CraftyGal]

183. I guess I was lucky then...

I made the choice to go into sex work, not as a street prostitute, but as in a massage parlor. The reason being was the my friends who were working the mean streets of Vancouver were disappearing. As I saw the danger, I knew that working "indoors" was the way to go.

Some would say that I didn't make the a decision as much as that I needed to feed my kid. Yes that was my choice to do. I am fortunate I never got into drugs as some as my friends did, however that begs the question of which came first, the drug use or street prostitution, which is often done to support the habit?

For me it was a job. I had great relationships and friends. I was in a long term relationship who knew that I was working at the message parlor and all it took.

I have gone through the whole thread and it appears that comments are geared towards the street prostitute. I have another friends that has disappeared from Los Vegas, what has been ascertained is that she is a victim of human trafficking.

That is what I help to fight against, human trafficking is exploitation, the underaged is exploitation. The ones that have been forced into it by a "loved one", or through sexual abuse that is exploitation.

What the OP and the blogger is talking about is the woman or man, lets not get sexist here, who goes into Sex Work with open eyes and know that they are selling something that is worth money. It is work and some people enjoy and why not?

I am not saying legalize prostitution, I would like to see it decriminalized. Prostitution, at least in Canada is not illegal. Solicitation and Living off the avails is.

PROSTITUTION LAWS AS THEY STAND[/b>

Procuring

The purpose of the "procuring" and "living on the avails" provisions in the Criminal Code is to hinder third parties from making a profit from the prostitution of others. This includes directing potential customers to the services of a prostitute, and living fully or partly off the earnings of a prostitute. In most large cities, people in the service industry such as taxi drivers, bell-hops, bartenders, and hotel clerks tend to supplement their incomes by procuring (Gomme, 1993: 301).

Laws regarding procurers are just as ambiguous as are laws regarding prostitution in general. According to what the law states, any person "who lives wholly or partly on the avails of prostitution" is guilty of a summary conviction offence, which entails a maximum penalty of six months in jail and/or a fine not exceeding $1000.

Problems arise as a result of the discrepancies between the way prostitutes and the law define pimps. For a prostitute a pimp is someone who "turns out" another person to work for him. This is another area where prostitutes are in conflict with the law; these women are not allowed to have a significant other. A prostitute from Toronto voices her frustration; "according to this law I'm not allowed to have a boyfriend because any man who is habitually in my company is defined as a pimp. We want the procuring laws removed. We demand the right to have lovers" (Good Girls Bad Girls, 1987: 102; Lowman, 1992: 55-6). Noteworthy is that not many people are prosecuted under this offence.

Soliciting

The solicitation law was enacted in 1972, and it was designed to deal with all the aspects of prostitution that the Vagrancy C provision ignored. Section 195.1 read:

Every person who solicits any person in a public place for the purpose of prostitution is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.

This section of the Criminal Code sought to punish an overt act, solicitation, but what was meant by solicitation was not described. The solicitation law attempted to address the issue of public nuisance that prostitution causes. Preceding the solicitation law, the extent of what the police had to prove when prosecuting an individual, was that a prostitute had offered her sexual services in a public place.

Positive aspects of the soliciting law are, a) it expanded police power by permitting the prosecution of male prostitutes and transvestites, b) police could no-longer make the arrest of a recognized street prostitute merely because she did not appear to be busy (Lowman, 1992: 65).

Communicating

The Communicating law was established in December 1985. Its principal purpose was to reduce the visibility of prostitution, thus reducing the nuisance aspect of the trade. Section 213 of the Criminal Code now read:

Every person who in a public place or in any place open to public view (a) stops or attempts to stop any motor vehicle, (b) impedes the free flow of pedestrians or vehicular traffic or ingress to or egress from premises adjacent to that place, or (c) stops or attempts to stop any person or in any manner communicate or attempts to communicate with any person for the purpose of engaging in prostitution or of obtaining the services of a prostitute is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.

A "public place" includes any place to which the public have right of access as of right or by invitation, express or implied, and any motor vehicle located in a public place or in any place open to public view.

An important aspect of the communicating law is that for the first time in the history of prostitution laws in Canada, the Criminal Code included customers "under the purview of the law". Thus rendering johns vulnerable to prosecution.

Amid the negative aspects that have surfaced after the law came into being is a dramatic increase in the murder rate among prostitutes throughout the province of British Columbia. Furthermore, this law still does not indicate where prostitution can take place legally (Lowman, 1997: 8; Duchesne, 1997:2).

And it goes on to talk about "a Common Bawdy House" and the ambiguities surrounding the words of that law. Of not is The "Catch 22" Situation.

When it comes to street prostitution the law is not only ambiguous, but it is also overtly unfair. In Canada it is legal for a woman to sell her body, but it is not legal for her to attempt to find any customers. Also prostitution is the only criminal offence involving two consenting adults, where in most cases, only the female is arrested ("Anywhere But Here", 1992).

If you can locate these they are very enlightening...

REFERENCES

Anywhere But Here: Prostitution and the Law, (Video) Simon Fraser University, 1992.

Bell, Laurie. Good Girls Bad Girls: Feminists and Sex Trade Workers Face to Face, Toronto: OPIRG, 1987.

Bullough, Vern and Bonnie Bullough, Women and Prostitution: A Social History, Prometheus Books, 1987.

Canada. Department of Justice Canada, "Street Prostitution-Assessing the Impact of the Law," 1989.

Canada. Library of Parliament, " Current Issue Review -Prostitution," February, 1982 (Revised October, 1994).

Davies, Nanette. Control of Deviance: a Critical Perspective, New York: McGraw-Hill Publishing Company, 1990.

Gomme, Ian. The Shadow Line: Deviance and Crime in Canada "Prostitution," Toronto: Harcourt Brace Javanovich, 1993.

Lowman, John. "Prostitution in Canada" in Margaret Jackson and Curt Griffiths, Canadian Criminology: Perspectives on Crime and Criminality, Toronto: Harcourt Brace & Company Canada, 1995, pp 333-359.

Lowman, John. "Sterling Prize Winner Challenges Prostitution Law" in Anne Sharp (ed.) Simon Fraser Alumni Journal, Surrey: SFU Alumni Relations Office, 1997.

Lowman, John. "Street Prostitution" in Vincent Sacco, Deviance: Conformity and Control in Canadian Society, Prentice-Hall, 1992, pp 49-83.

Province of British Columbia. "Community Consultation on Prostitution in British Columbia," Overview of Results, March, 1996.

Siegel, Larry. Criminology: Theories, patterns, and typologies, St. Paul MN: West Publishing Co, 1992.

Statistics Canada, "Street Prostitution in Canada," February, 1997.

Food for thought.....

Oh and one more thing, I am not working in the Sex Work Industry. My husband is aware of all of what I do. In fact I am currently involved with working with the women who are on the streets as they are still very vulnerable and I shudder every time I hear another street worker missing and I cringe and go "Oh god who have they found in the killing fields?" We have what appears to be a group of serial killers who may be connect or working together killing these women. These women didn't ask for it just becasue they work the streets. These women didn't ask to be treated like yesterdays garbage because they work the streets.

[Maru Kitteh]

156. What society does NOT attempt to regulate sexuality?

Not a subset or fraction - a society........

[TwilightGardener]

9. Um...really. Do I need to act as if this is a respectable profession now?

What sheepdip.

[cliffordu]

11. Perhaps more respectable than anything you've done. Are you a lawyer?

[TwilightGardener]

23. No--I'm a registered nurse.

[Hello_Kitty]

111. Have you ever been a prostitute? eom

[cliffordu]

143. yes.

[Cash_thatswhatiwant]

192. how was it?

[lildreamer316]

15. 'Respectable' ..hmmmm.

I'm a stripper, have been since 1994. Sometimes in our internal dialog between ourselves in this profession, we are not sure we want to be known as 'respectable'; since that tends to make it more mainstream and therefore not as forbidden; equaling loss of revenue. However, it is a profession, and should be regarded as one - completely.

[Heidi]

17. I respect you.

1. I use my hands to make a living (for the most part), and I see this no differently from using one's mind or boobs or whole body or any combination of all of what you have to make a living.
2. I respect that you put up with bullshit judgment so graciously. I've seen you do it countless times and I admire you for it.

[lildreamer316]

21. Awww!!

I respect you too, dear. :loveya:
eh, there will always be ppl who judge and are of opposite opinion. If they can't keep it civil, there's really no point in engaging them.
Sometimes I'm not as gracious in real life..as in, I used to let it bother me. I like to think I've changed that a bit...we will find out when I return to full-time stripping at the end of the month.

[TorchTheWitch]

161. Hiya sweetie!

Thought I'd see you chiming in here. Always a pleasure to see your words of wisdom.

I'm also a stripper although not as long as lildreamer, so although we're on the same page, my experience is somewhat different since I haven't been in the business nearly as long and instead spent most of my working life as a "respectable" cubicle drone. After my 9 years in this biz, my ONLY regret has been and continues to be that I didn't get into it much early. I like what I do, and don't require pity, therapy or claims from people who think they know my own mind better than I do insisting that I must be a twisted soul to do something they themselves wouldn't be comfortable doing. Of course it's not all rainbows and roses... there is no job that is. Of course there are times when I don't feel like working and don't like dealing with some of the people I come into contact with at work. However, everyone in every job feels like that at times, but in THIS job I don't HAVE to work if I don't feel like it or deal with anyone I don't want to, and that is not an option I ever had in any other job. I am truly and honestly so much happier working as a stripper than anything else I've ever done to keep a roof over my head. There have been many times that I've gone to work because my spirits needed lifting... most of the time I have a great deal of FUN when I'm working and am disappointed when the night comes to an end and it's time to close.

Everyone has their own personal boundries. I totally get that most people would never be comfortable doing what I do or find it respectable. But just because they themselves feel that way has no bearing whatsoever on how anyone else may feel about it. The one and only thing that does bother me about working in this business is other people looking down on me and believing I must be stupid or suffer some emotional/mental illness in to be doing it. I didn't suddenly become an idiot or suddenly suffer some illness when I quit being a paralegal and started shaking my ass to pay the bills... I suddenly got SMART, and that translated to a far happier me with a far better standard of living.

[lildreamer316]

168. ..that's what the f I'm talkin' about!

I could not have been clearer. Thank you!!

[Heidi]

16. How is using one's body to make a living not respectable?

Care to explain?

[TwilightGardener]

22. Bottom line--if your son or daughter hooked on the street, or danced

on a pole for strange men to leer at, would you be proud? Would you encourage them to continue that "profession"? If you say "yes", you're an utter liar.

[Eryemil]

26. High-end male scorts...

...make a killing and get to choose their clients, and hours to a point. They can refuse to do risky scenes and are no more likely to catch STDs than any other promiscuous gay male (like me, for example) given safe sex is practiced. There is probably as much risk in this as being an 'oh so honorable' police officer.

I would prefer if my children followed my steps into the lofty halls of academia but if they were more inclined to something a bit more physical I wouldn't be against it.
In fact, I'd much, much rather prefer that they be sex workers than soldiers and if Americans are anything to go by there's nothing more 'honorable' than being one of those. I on the other hand remain skeptical.

[TwilightGardener]

28. Really--you'd rather your children offer access to their orifices

and genitalia to strangers for money, than serve in the military? Insane.

[Eryemil]

29. Well daddy already does it for free

1) They have less of a chance of being killed working for a good escort agency
2) They won't be expected to kill others. I don't wish that on anyone, specially not a child of mine.
3) Won't be part of an institution that at its very core works by stripping the individuality from its people
4) Won't end up killing themselves or going psychotic and murdering others after their 4th tour in some hellish, purposeless "war" some rich and powerful man somewhere decided on.

You're being irrational though obviously I won't convince you of that, so instead I'll try to give you a window into my head.

First of all, let me say that I am an atheist and skeptic. I don't attach any more moral baggage to the act of sex than I do any other biological function.
Sex is a non-issue. Something we do to reproduce but mostly for fun. And it is very fun indeed.

If you continue from that premise, how can being paid to do something that you love and hurts no one be reprehensible?
The very concept of "honorable" is a bitch sketchy I can admit but if you equate it to respect I can't think of anything more respectable than helping others and in a sense that is exactly what sex workers do.

They provide a highly sought out service that make many happy. Not quite as "honorable" as being a doctor perhaps but far from objectionable in my opinion.

[TwilightGardener]

37. Yes, clearly I'm the irrational one.

:crazy:

[Eryemil]

38. And not very good at explaining your mind either

Pity.

[NashVegas]

51. Sometimes "Rational" Is Over-rated

Like when people are trying to come up with "rational" reasons for continued exploitation.

I'm of very mixed mind whether or not prostitution should be legal, and I certainly would try not to judge anyone doing it. But those who promote it, which the OP blog is, should be taken out to the shed.

[Eryemil]

55. Reason is NEVER overrated

I am very much against the sex-slave trade if that is what you meant by exploitation!
Deplorable stuff.

In certain European countries prostitutes work legally, by choice. Pay taxes and unionize.
Could it be that they do it because nothing else is available? Yes, I bet many do and this is indeed a form of exploitation.
In the same vein I'd say those that work for minimum wage flipping burgers or cleaning toilets are also being exploited.

[MattBaggins]

79. Those girls in Europe

are as exploited as anywhere else. That trade is run by organized thugs and the women are mere chattel to them.

[Scout]

57. "hurts no one" .... and you know this how? n/t

[Eryemil]

61. Common sense

In the scenario I gave no one is being hurt that they do not wish it. If they are then I obviously have a problem with it.
The high-end escort business is relatively safe, consensual, productive and pays well. A good balance of all these is best one can hope for in an occupation in my opinion.

Based on these criteria there are many worse and better jobs.

[Scout]

64. so the spouses of the people who are visiting these high end escorts

are fully aware, and are totally fine with it, right?

they don't care that their spouse is out getting screwed by/screwing some lowlife who fucks and/or gives head for money?

right, but no one's getting hurt in "your scenario." :eyes:

[lightningandsnow]

66. Lowlife?

Uh, like I said, I have a friend in the sex industry. Gee, thanks.

And yes, with a sex worker or not, people cheat on their spouses. It's shitty, but it's not a reason to hate on sex workers. After all, there are single people and people in open relationships who use the services of sex workers as well.

[Scout]

68. i'm entitled to my opinion....

and people who cheat on their spouses "for free" are also lowlifes. if your friend doesn't like what i think of them, tough shit.

[Maru Kitteh]

162. Do you deny that the low-budget end of prostitution is fraught with desperate and unseemly

characters?

Do you deny that this is actually the level at which the majority of sex transactions occur, just as in all other sectors of the economy? (i.e. Wal*Mart)


Do you deny that many of the people who practice this most common trade are more likely than not to suffer from at least one STD at any given time?


I don't have the energy or time to write in detail as I could because of work I need to complete yet tonight, but, think about this - an 18 year old girl could escape an abusive household where she was raped for a DECADE - only to find herself utterly without support from the government unless she has a child or is currently pregnant.


It doesn't take a novelist to imagine how this scenario, so much more common than we care to acknowledge, might lead to prostitution.


The lower end on this scale will be called low-life's by some. The higher end will of course be afforded more generous treatment.

[Eryemil]

67. Inconsequential

How can you even think of using this in place of a valid argument?
It would be like blaming the owners of a golf course because a man chooses to spend his Sundays there instead of taking little Bobby to baseball practice.

The blame in such a situation lies solely on the man choosing to be dishonest to his partner.
It is the man choosing to hurt them, not the prostitute. He will do so whether prostitution is legal or illegal, whether it is socially acceptable or not.
You're basically projecting someone's moral failings onto an innocent party.

In this scenario the prostitute is as ignorant (and innocent) as the housewife.

[Scout]

70. you did not say who was doing the hurting....

you tried to claim that no one was hurt.

whether it's the prostitute or the spouse doing it doesn't matter ... someone is still being hurt.

[Eryemil]

71. I meant hurt in terms of the parties involved

Whether the person being cheated on is hurt or not hardly matters to the argument.

So, do you think the owners of the golf course are morally reprehensible because the father chooses to spend his time there instead of with his little spawn?
It's really fucking disturbing how you seem to so easily shift the blame from the actual perpetrator to an innocent party.

I can't even begin to imagine how this particular example of yours says anything negative at all about the prostitute in question and prostitution in general.

[Scout]

141. perhaps you haven't much of an imagination then. n/t

[LeftyMom]

118. By that reasoning we should ban bars.

Hell, there's been more than one marriage broken up over people fucking around with people they met on DU (and a few more that appear to have kept the spouse in the dark even if half the internet knows) so by that standard we should ban DU.

[Scout]

142. go ahead and keep suggesting shit no one is saying, it just makes you look bad n/t

[MattBaggins]

78. More Pretty Woman BS

1. BS these "escort services" you fantasize about are either street pimps with a website or organized crime groups that don't give a rats ass about their cheap labor.

2. Show me one of these groups that cares how many STDs they are passing around.

3. You really are warped. You think that the Military is bad for a persons Id yet believe that hooking is just such down to earth wholesome fun?

4. No they will kill themselves and maybe others after the trauma of bieng used as a bucket for bodily fluids set in and they realize they have nothing left.

Perhaps if you had more respect for yourself and for women you might view things differently.

[MattBaggins]

76. Ah the Pretty Woman fantasy world of escort services

Too bad the real world involves that young male being beat nearly to death, forced to use drugs and sent out to have sex with with anyone who will pay with or without condoms.

[Eryemil]

87. Hahaha. Are you serious?

I know so many boys that have paid their college tuition working as rentboys, strippers and porno artists. (or all of the above)
However, the fact that such bad things happen is a failure of society and the system.

[Heidi]

27. I don't have kids, but I've been someone's kid, and I can tell you with all honesty

that my life is not about making my parents proud, nor should it be. I'm an artist. I make my living with my hands. If you can tell me without some moralizing, sanctimonious lecture involving some "hooker's" come-to-Jesus moment, why making a living with my hands is any better or different than making a living with my vagina, I might indulge you. But before you get started, you need to know that there are members of the DU community who make their livings with their bodies -- and they're every bit as valuable as those who make their livings with their minds -- or via their husbands.

[TwilightGardener]

31. I guess it all depends on how you view sexual relationships.

I don't see them as mere transactions, like buying a pack of gum at the store. I never will. I think it cheapens and degrades something that ideally belongs in loving, trusting relationships, and it cheapens and degrades the people who perform, or pay, or participate, or watch. I might be alone on DU with that sentiment (although I'm certainly not alone in the rest of America), but that's fine with me.

[Eryemil]

33. Lots of people hold lots of irrational beliefs

In fact, humans are innately irrational beings. It is still not something I would personally be proud of.

[Sparkly]

158. That's why it's a matter of choice. nt

[LisaL]

166. Well, if it's so respectable, why suggest the job shouldn't be

mentioned to family and friends of the sex worker? Seems simple enough. If the job is respectable, there should be no problem for family and friends to know what someone does.

[Heidi]

173. Other side of the same coin: there is no reason for family and friends to judge

or shun a loved one simply because the loved one is a sex worker. Seems simple enough.

[Threedifferentones]

19. No

You need to understand that "respectability" as you use it in your post is a "social construct." You NEED to understand that around here acting like sex is immoral, ie not a respectable thing to sell, will get you flamed because that is a prudish, ignorant and sadly conservative point of view; these people harm no one, yet they are given far less respect than the assholes who run our country for their own benefit.

Sex is not dirty, sex is not dirty, sex is not dirty...

[TwilightGardener]

25. You're reading shit in my post that isn't there.

I didn't say sex was immoral or dirty. I just find it silly that people who can't respect themselves, who debase and degrade and humiliate themselves for money, think that they're in a position to demand respect and approval ("don't call us 'hookers'--we prefer 'sexworker-Americans'"!! LOL!) from anyone else.

[Eryemil]

32. How are they debasing themselves?

I honestly cannot comprehend how one could arrive at such a line of thought.
They're being paid to have sex, where is the connection between the two

Please enlighten me.

[TwilightGardener]

36. Wow. Nope, not worth trying to explain.

[Eryemil]

39. Yes, it is!

Any thought worth having is worth discussing.
So please, discuss.

[Threedifferentones]

40. The shit is there

Never said it was immoral or dirty? No, you just said prositution is unrespectable, debased, and degraded. You think that does not equal immoral?

It's plain for all to see the roots of those feelings towards sex work lie in an attitude towards sex itself. You are insisting this does not hold true for you. However, you cannot deny that the first people to use such language towards sex workers tended to see women as property and sex as something "sinful" which society needed to control strictly. It is reasonable to assume that your need to dissapprove of such "degrading" work is tied to this long tradition in our society of people making the same point.

Most people who consider sex to be immoral have nasty things to say about prostitutes, because of the tradition of "morality" I just mentioned. All those people are one reason to assume your attitude towards protitutes is rooted in sexual repression. The other is that you never explain what "respectability" is to you or just why you are so sure that sex work necessitates humiliating one's self. Yea, it is in some sense an obviously stupid line of work to get in to, since the government will not help you if/when you get abused. However, the degrading parts of prostitution come not from the profession itself, but from our attittudes and policies towards it. If it were legal and respected, a SWer asked to do something degrading would say "fuck you" and report the offending client to a union. Instead, all too often some pimp steps in and says "oh yes you will or else." And the prostitute, with no one to help, must say fine.

Your statement that sex work is not a "respectable" job is agreed upon by the vast majority of our population. An approximately equal number would agree that the Presidency of the United States is a VERY respectful job. However, it is quite clear that our last president, due to his constant lies and evil policies, deserves less respect than most any other person in history, including prostitutes I have known. Hence, respectability is obviously a social construct, and by relying on such a word to make your argument as to why its okay to insult prostitutes, you seem to reveal a prudish mindset.

Of course, you may be the one person I have ever met who has a stupendously thought out reason as to why selling sex is less "respectable," ie agreeable or moral, than selling televisions, or fucking over all of America like GWB, but if so you have yet to give it.

Moreover, as I alluded to in the third paragraph of this post, your mindset works sort of like self-fulfilling prophecies. Our attitudes and laws towards prostitution turn it in to a corrupt, criminal industry which hurts sex workers, often turning SWers into addicts and slaves.

[TwilightGardener]

47. First off, you keep interchanging the word "sex" with "prostitution"--

they're not interchangeable. Nowhere did I say that the act of sex itself is immoral, but you're going all Bill Frist on me and psychoanalyzing based on a few sentences. Do I believe that prostitution (for women AND men) is immoral? Yes, in accordance with my religious beliefs. I believe that allowing one's body to be used as a stranger's sex toy, to make money, is morally wrong--the "client" or the peeper or the guy stuffing dollar bills in your G-string does not care about you, does not respect you, does not value you, and yet you offer up your most personal space, your own body, for this stranger to violate--can't see that as a good thing, sorry--whether it's for money or a need to feel "loved" or admired in some way. That said, I'm OK with it being legal, as long as it doesn't have a noticeable negative impact on the community (increased criminal element hanging around, etc.). I don't care what consenting adults do with each other in the privacy of their homes.

[Threedifferentones]

54. See, I was right

"In accordance with my religious beliefs..."

As if our religions "of the book" are not all based in an extremely prudish and patriarchal culture...

Or perhaps you meant some other religion? It does not matter much, you should determine right and wrong for yourself, not copy it from a group of people who get off on sharing in a delusion.

Your view of the immorality of prostitution is rooted in religion, not logic. I keep interchanging prostitution and sex because in the Christian, Islamic and Jewish traditions of morality they are interchangeable. Prostitution is immoral because sex is only moral when engaged in between a married man and woman. Every religion that has something to say about prostitution has even more to say about sex and marriage in general. So your views on sex and prostitution are intertwined, practically interchangeable.

Like I said in my first post, if prostitution were legal clients would at least have to ACT with more respect, since SWers would be much better protected and paid. The treatment you refer to in this latest post is, as I said in my last, a result of our society's attitude towards SW, an attitude you share to some extent, and not the work itself.

I think religious conceptions of morality are stupid and that is why I have been so rude to you. I wished to draw out the illogical roots of your morality, which I have done: religion is arbitrary, as soon as you really start pondering it you realize organized religion and the moral codes they endorse are social tools and constructs, not truths. All of your posts here indicate you have a morality about sex which has been dictated to you, not thought out independetly from our society's prevailing views. However, you are at least open minded enough to see that you have no right to impose your morality on us, so I think we could eventualy get along.

[MattBaggins]

84. Stop right there fella

You will not get away with that "patriarchal" mumbo jumbo bullshit. You do not get to advocate for women being used as seminal sponges; and in the same breath claim some kind of convoluted enlightenment. This bullshit of trying to make those of us that have respect for women, out to be the oppressors, is just not going to fly.

You are the misogynist, not us.

[Eryemil]

88. I cannot speak for females, but for us males, where available

Frequent sex is hardly a bad thing.

[MattBaggins]

93. No frequent sex is a great thing

But finding a young girl or boy that is being forced to do that "Dirty Sanchez" so they can make big bucks for someone else; is a problem.

[Eryemil]

97. Of course it is, but I reiterate:

Many guys I know, some close friends, got themselves through college (or simply get some spending money now and again) by prostituting themselves.
How exactly is this on the same league? It's basically what all of us do in our day to day life, with an added benefit.

[MattBaggins]

98. Many? What you know one or two

and that negates the 99.99999999% of people who are forced into sex slavery?

Talk about a logical fallacy eh?

[Eryemil]

101. Have I ever said, in any of my posts that it somehow negates it?

I've been simply saying that it can be a perfectly good occupation and that there's nothing objectively wrong about it.
You'd think such a lose statement wouldn't cause such an uproar.

[Threedifferentones]

147. Your post is silly, Matt

"Advocate for women being used as seminal sponges..."

It's all in how you look at it. If I want to describe marriage as an institution which turns women into "seminal sponges," I could easily do so, it has been done. Especially if we look at marriage in a context of American history, where "conservative" views of marriage and "family values" have dominated, and husbands could not be accussed of raping their wife, women could hardly own property or file for dicorce, etc. Moreover, the custom of the husband being dominate remains far more common today than its opposite.

This does not mean I should go around trashing the institution of marriage. It certainly does not mean every married woman is in an exploitative relationship. Similarly, while the ways in which we chose to view and regulate sex work make it harmful to wome in general, it is no more reasnoable to criticize SWers as a whole than it is to criticize marriage as a whole. Both should be legal, both should be respected.

Not sure why I am having to say this, but I do not view women as "seminal sponges," you fucktard, though alot of the people who advocate strongest against prostitution (ie church groups) certainly do.

[riverdeep]

89. Not everyone who is against prostitution does so out of prudish morality,

or whatever it is you're railing against. Legalizing it seems like a great idea, especially to open-minded liberals, but a closer look at the reality of legalized prostitution isn't so comforting:

...Melissa Farley, visited eight legal brothels in Nevada, interviewing 45 women and a number of brothel owners. Far from enjoying better conditions than those who work illegally, the prostitutes she spoke to are often subject to slave-like conditions.

Farley found a "shocking" lack of services for women in Nevada wishing to leave prostitution. "When prostitution is considered a legal job instead of a human rights violation," says Farley, "why should the state offer services for escape?" More than 80% of those interviewed told Farley they wanted to leave prostitution.

The effect of all this on the women in the brothels is "negative and profound," according to Farley. "Many were suffering what I'd describe as the traumatic effects of ongoing sexual assaults, and those that had been in the brothels for some time were institutionalised. That is, they were passive, timid, compliant, and deeply resigned."

"No one really enjoys getting sold," says Angie, who Farley interviewed. "It's like you sign a contract to be raped."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/sep/07/usa.gender

This conforms to other women's testimonials you can find on the net. When you actually ask the women involved in legal prostitution in America or elsewhere, while there are certainly some that find it acceptable, most do not. There are many problems that arise putting a fly into the ointment of enlightened sexual bartering. Even if you still believe legalization is the way to go, scenarios like this show some of the pitfalls involved. And while you may not be one of these people, many people do not see sex like other activities. Sex has a tendency to cut to people's vulnerabilities, and becoming vulnerable to just anyone isn't preferred.

At the same time, I rail against the idea of seeing those who sell themselves as being less than human. I've always wondered why prostitutes are considered 'low' people when, if anything, the johns would more likely fall into that category. It would be just as accurate to view those who use prostitutes as pathetic creatures who are unable or unwilling to have regular relations but instead we put the pathetic label on the prostitutes.

[lightningandsnow]

95. Interesting.

I understand this argument (although, am not a fan of Farley). I've never been one for "legalize, tax, regulate" - I prefer decriminalization, which, rather than treating sex work as a vice to be strictly controlled, treats it as work. A lot of sex workers' rights activists actually really oppose legalization as it has played out in Nevada. (http://www.spoc.ca/decrimlegal.html). I, personally, really don't like the Nevada model of legalization, simply because it seems to be aimed at punishing sex workers as much as possible for their work, rather than allowing them freedom and keeping them safe.

Although I support decriminalization, I have oodles more respect for those who oppose it because of the problems with legalization and it becoming exploitative than those who use the "it's dirty and gross" argument.

[riverdeep]

107. My own agenda is safety and welfare of the prostitutes first and foremost.

I don't have any ideological attachment as to what 'should' get us there. If it's decriminalization, legalization, or whatever, I don't care. Being a prostitute, for most of the world's prostitutes, is a very unpleasant, dangerous business. Alternate opportunities should be made available, those who want to leave should be given opportunities, and the harassment of prostitutes by officials should end.

I'm not naive enough to think that it will be a thing of the past like slavery, there will always be those who would rather make $200 in fifteen minutes than on a five hour shift, but that the ones engaging in it do so out of a minimum of coercion.

[lightningandsnow]

108. I definitely agree.

And I certainly appreciate your calmness and rationality. I'm glad you weighed in on this!

[Eryemil]

109. Wouldn't you?

"<...>there will always be those who would rather make $200 in fifteen minutes than on a five hour shift<...>

[Scout]

145. not if i have to suck cock to do it n/t

[Scout]

144. i agree with a lot of your post, and this sentence really hit home....

"It would be just as accurate to view those who use prostitutes as pathetic creatures who are unable or unwilling to have regular relations but instead we put the pathetic label on the prostitutes."

that is EXACTLY how i view those who do use prostitutes...

[MattBaggins]

81. Sex is not dirty

giving a blow job in a back alley for money is dirty

giving a blow job in a back alley for money is dirty

giving a blow job in a back alley for money is dirty

[lightningandsnow]

83. Holy judgement, Batman!

Also, not all sex workers are street prostitutes. There are also people who work at massage parlors, escorts, pro doms, and the like.

[MattBaggins]

90. Sometimes you have to be judgemental

Kicking puppies is bad
Mugging old ladies is mean
Giving blow jobs in a back alley is dirty

The girls in all those other situations are just peachy keeny? The girls in massage parlors are not herded up into a van and driven to basement prisons at night?
You like many of the folks here watched Pretty Woman too many times and believe in these magical mysterious "escort services" that are not run by Mafia types as ruthless as any street pimp.

[Eryemil]

91. "Giving blow jobs in a back alley is dirty"

Sometimes that's half the fun mate.

[MattBaggins]

96. Larry Craig?

wait wrong thread

[Eryemil]

100. Hardly, for once I am not married and open about my inclinations

I have many faults but this is not one of them.
In actuality I am the gay version of the average fratboy. Except it is considerably easier for me to find sex, something they'd certainly be jealous of if it weren't for the whole penis thing.

[MattBaggins]

103. Delete

[Eryemil]

104. Ok, bad comparison

I meant strictly in terms of sexual promiscuity. When not trolling the internet I am a well mannered molecular genetics major (zoology minor) and don't even drink alcohol, for what it's worth.
I just like sex, particularly sex with men. I like it often and with added variety.

Some people would obviously think what I do is morally reprehensible. I personally do not think it is at all just as I don't find anything wrong with the idea of people taking advantage of their bodies and desires to make money.

I would do it in a heartbeat but I am too short, sadly enough.

[MattBaggins]

105. Deleted my post

as it might have been construed as offensive.

[Eryemil]

106. Honestly the Larry Craig thing was more offensive than anything else you could have said

I have a particular and lingering hatred for self-loathing closet cases that work to undermine the rights of queers while sucking cock on the side.
Specially when they cheat on their spouses while doing so.

[MattBaggins]

110. It was a bad joke attempt

and you and I see eye to eye on that issue than. I was appalled for the same reasons and the fact that he used to a public place. As a father of children I really don't want to have to take my kids to the bathroom and have to worry about that kind of thing.

[Threedifferentones]

148. Right, giving BJs in a back alley is literally dirty, and thus bad.

Which is why prostitution should be legalized. So that BJs for money can be given in clean, well it offices, between people who are regularly and thoroughly tested for STDs. This has already been said many times in this thread, however. The more you fail to comprehend this, the clearer it becomes that by "dirty" you don't mean literally unclean, but rather immoral. Hence, you are a prude, a social conservative at heart, like the poster I first flamed in this thread.

[destinationunknown]

30. Since when do you get to decide what is respectable or not?

Michael Jordan stuffed baskets with his hands. If some young, pretty woman uses her hands on an unattractive, lonely man, who the hell cares? I don't want it on my street (only because sex trade stuff should be away from children, etc.), but I sure don't think it should be illegal.

[TwilightGardener]

35. "I don't want it on MY street"...

:rofl: I DO get to decide what is respectable. So do you. So do we all, as members of communities. Honestly, I don't think it should be illegal, same as I don't think porn should be illegal--I don't care what consenting adults do behind closed doors, whether money is exchanged or not. However, the ability to command a measure of respect from society (what this article is asking for) requires an actual contribution TO society--most communities see whorehouses or strip clubs as something that detracts, rather than contributes.

[Eryemil]

41. If it didn't contribute something to society it wouldn't exist in the first place

Someone, somewhere thinks their services worthwhile enough.
Now, if you said that they didn't contribute anything POSITIVE to society that be an interesting line of thought.

Except of course that it is a very subjective statement. What society and according to the judgment of which of its segments?

[TwilightGardener]

50. I think the claim that it contributes anything positive to society

is at BEST dubious. Prostitution, porn, etc. certainly contribute some very negative things to society, however--exploitation, a view of women as sex objects, STD's, an unrealistic image of what women's bodies are supposed to look like, and some really bad music, for starters.

[Eryemil]

65. Here you go again with that word

We are all exploited in one way or another. Necessity by its nature tends to lead to the compromise of our desires for the sake of our more immediate needs. (Food, water, shelter)
As I wrote above a well franchised prostitute working in a safe environment might not think her job is ideal. The same, however, could be said for any other person in any other occupation.
And in such a situation they would have about as much chance of finding a new job as any one else.

As to viewing women as sex objects. We are all, by nature, sex objects.
I am skeptic to the idea that porn somehow modifies the character of people as opposed to just giving expression (and a safe outlet) to the fantasies and desires inside all of us.

STDs. Well, I am a sexually active man. I have sex with a modest estimate of about two/three partners per week. Fairly promiscuous by any account, I think.
I obviously practice safe sex as any reputable (that is, not crack whores or those unfortunate to be owned by a street corner pimp) sex worker will.
In reality and all considered I am probably at higher risk of catch and STD yet no sane person would see this as a means of casting aspersions on my character.

"<...>an unrealistic image of what women's bodies are supposed to look like<...>"

So do underwear ads on the telly.

<...>and some really bad music<...>

You got me there. I personally prefer the natural sounds, so to speak.

[destinationunknown]

60. Glad you found me amusing (?)...I also don't want taverns on my street

and no, I don't think they contribute much to society except misery. But illegal? Naw.

I have more contempt for the johns who are married or so shallow that they just want sex and not a relationship than I ever will be for a woman who chooses to make some dough with her hot bod. Women can be such haters, but I am not one. I hate the word 'whore.'

[Skittles]

126. I agree

I don't think it should be illegal but it is sleazy, disgusting, demeaning no mantter how much they try to make it respectable

[EFerrari]

165. I'd stick to disrespecting other people honestly. n/t

[Political Heretic]

176. No. You need to come to terms with the fact that its not up to you to judge "respectability"

:hi:

[cliffordu]

10. Kicked. Excellent post, too late to rec or I would.

[mitchum]

12. I prefer Iceberg Slim as the authoritative voice on this subject

[lildreamer316]

13. This stripper thanks you!!

Although I am not really referred to in the tips above, my profession is still considered sex work.
And yes, I chose it.
Thank you for the support!!

[blondeatlast]

20. I belly dance, occasionally in a public venue. It's a matter of perceived degrees;

what you do and what I do aren't all that different--yet what I do is "acceptable" for aome reason. Many of the moves you make likely come from my form of dance.

Done right, stripping, prostitution, etc. SHOULD be empowering for women but we choose to make it oppressive by making it "shameful." I don't buy that thinking.

[lightningandsnow]

34. You're awesome.

:hug:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

46. Oh, I Thought The OP Was Referring To Actual Sexual Acts.

Strippers rock.

[JackBeck]

42. Great piece. Thank you for posting.

A subset of this industry that is marginalized and constantly overlooked is those who must have survivor sex.

Specifically, transgender women of color, where HIV rates are at an alamrming 54%. If more people chcked their biases at the door and did the proper education and outreach, we could easily bring down that infection rate.

[CoffeeCat]

43. This is garbage...

There are rules of etiquette now--about how we should tread lightly around people who are into mutilating
their own souls?

You help them OUT of these situations--you don't demand that society accept rules that legitimize self abuse.

Most people who sell their bodies are not in a healthy place. Let's not pretend otherwise--and start preaching
at others on some moral pedestal about the "appropriate ways" to behave around degrading and exploitive actions of
others.

That's revolting beyond measure.

What next..."Proper behavior and moral guidelines when you meet a father of two who runs the local meth lab."

Are people living in some kind of fantasy land--where prostitutes meet upstanding, professional men in million-dollar
penthouse apartments? Prostitution is seedy, horrible life--and often children are exploited. Prostitutes are often
victims of violence. This is not some victimless career choice.

There's a difference between having empathy for someone---and helping them OUT of a situation---which I advocate. You help
the exploited sex worker. You fund drug rehab programs for the meth addict and you work to resolve their very-human
underlying issues that led them to this place. Normalizing this behavior and making destructive behavior "ok" is
not helpful.

It's enabling and helps to keep people in a self-abuse cycle.

[lightningandsnow]

44. I have a good friend who happens to be a sex worker.

She's an intelligent, independent, fairly "normal" woman in her 30's. She's had many jobs over the course of her life (including freelance journalism and being a manager of a retail store), and she happens to be doing sex work at the moment. Her rationale? She likes it, thinks she's good at it, and it pays well.

What kind of "issue" do you think she has? And why is it so unhealthy for her to do what she does?

[CoffeeCat]

48. She's in the minority...

Your friend represents about 1 percent of people who do this.

I'm sure there are people who are high-functioning heroin addicts too. Should we legalize heroin because
a few people have managed to escape the hell that most heroin addicts experience?

You can always come up with one-in-a-million examples--that are atypical. You can't legitimize abuse
just because a handful appear to be unscathed. It certainly doesn't negate all of the violence, exploitation
and dysfunction that go on with the other 99 percent of sex workers.

Most women who turn to prostitution are not "former journalists". Most prostitutes do this out
of desperation. They operate from a position of weakness, not strength. Many have no family
support, are poor and many are just perpetuating a lifetime of sexual abuse and dysfunction.

We're talking about normalizing and giving the green light to these behaviors in general. That, I am
against, because the potential for legitimizing abusive behavior--is just so great.

That's awesome that your friend has figured out a way to wholesale her body--without any repercussions, but
your friend does not accurately represent the experience of most sex workers.

[Sparkly]

159. Are there really stats on this?

I can't imagine how they're collected.

And with all due respect, I'm not sure where you're getting your "facts." There are indeed sex workers who are sane and balanced and choose the work for themselves. Their views of it may differ from yours.

It is not at ALL comparable to someone with a heroin addiction -- please.

Coercion, illnesses, force, children, etc. are all separate issues -- I believe the OP is about conscious choices of adults.

[MattBaggins]

85. Does she make sure that all of her clients are single

No? Then she is a whore.

[Sparkly]

160. And what are they?

And who are you to judge?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

186. It's not up to her to make sure of that

It's not the escort's fault a man is cheating on his wife/fiance. It's the man's fault.

[NashVegas]

63. The Most Telling Thing About the OP Article

Is that when it comes to offering support, this is the only thing that matters:

11) Be Supportive and Share Resources. If you know of someone who is new to the industry or in an abusive situation with an employer, by all means offer advice and support without being condescending. Some people do enter into the sex industry without educating themselves about what they are getting into and may need help. Despite the situation, calling the police is usually never a good option. Try to find other organizations that are sensitive to the needs of sex workers by contacting the organizations listed below.

ie, the writer's idea of "Support" is helping someone get gigs where they won't get beat up.

The blogger doesn't suggest people give skin traders any emotional support, and I'm guessing that's either because he or she doesn't have any clue what that is, and don't know how much it helps people to get out of a negative space.

[Hello_Kitty]

114. The blog looks like an astroturf front for the pimp industry

Uses just enough "progressive" sounding language to appear to be an advocacy group.

[lightningandsnow]

115. There are a lot of sex worker advocacy groups like this.

SWOP is one of the most well known. There's also COYOTE, SPOC (Sex Professionals of Canada), Scarlet Alliance, Empower, and more...

Seriously, I'd look them up. They're worker-run. Also, the blog itself is run by some prominent sex workers' rights activists.

Just because someone's experiences don't mesh with your personal opinions doesn't mean they're lying. (And, on many issues, this is definitely something I've had to learn myself.)

[Hello_Kitty]

120. Sorry but I've got a good nose for astroturf and this reeks of it.

Like I said, they are adept at dressing their real agenda up in "progressive" language.

[Eryemil]

121. This might just blow your mind

http://current.com/items/89283173/swedish_prostitutes_want_to_pay_taxes.htm

[Hello_Kitty]

124. I couldn't get past the photo on that one before I clicked it shut.

Sheesh. :eyes:

[Eryemil]

125. That's hilarious. I guess it did blow your mind after all

Oh god, the TV ads in Europe would give you a heart attack.

[Hello_Kitty]

132. If someone is trying to persuade me of something

Using a cheesecake photo of naked women is not going to go far to advance their argument with me.

[lightningandsnow]

127. What about this?

http://www.scarletalliance.org.au/

Or this? http://www.coyotela.org/what_is.html

[Hello_Kitty]

131. The Scarlet Alliance appears to be opposed to anti-trafficking laws for some reason

I don't know what the deal is with So. Korean human trafficking laws but I find this statement rather puzzling:

SOUTH KOREAN SEX WORKERS FIGHT ANTI-TRAFFICKING LAWS
Minseongnoryeon is devoted to fight for the abolition of the Special Laws against Prostitution led by mainstream feminists, and the redevelopment by construction capital carried out by enforcement agencies. The celebration of the third anniversary of "Sex workers' day" is another signal of our determination to fight for our right of survival and right of abode. We hope to join in strong solidarity with those citizens and social organizations that sympathize with our cause in sex workers' movement...

"mainstream feminists"?

Here's what I found about the trafficking that is going on in South Korea: http://www.humantrafficking.org/countries/south_korea

The Situation
South Korea is a source, transit, and destination country for human trafficking.

Source
South Korean women and girls are trafficked for commercial sexual exploitation in the United States, Japan, Hong Kong, Guam, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and Western Europe. 1 A small number of migrants seeking economic opportunities abroad are believed to be trafficking victims. 2

Transit
The country was a transit country for victims trafficked from China to the United States. 3

Destination
South Korea is a destination country for women trafficked from Russia, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, the People's Republic of China (P.R.C.), the Philippines, Thailand, and other Southeast Asian countries for sexual and labor exploitation. Some women and girls were trafficked to become brides for South Korean men or to work in child sex tourism. 4 Some victims were recruited by false promises of employment in the entertainment industry but were later coerced into exploitative conditions. 5 Many NGOs expressed concern about the child sex tourism in South Korea. Although South Korea has extraterritorial laws to prosecute South Korean citizens for child sexual exploitation abroad, there have been no prosecutions.

[NashVegas]

137. Geez, It's Like Arguing With NAMBLA Freaks Circa 1998

"Oh, but it's *good* for them ..."

[Hello_Kitty]

138. I know. It's maddening.

I remembered an article I read last year by a woman who interviewed prostitutes and their supposed "advocates". Very telling how the oh-so-liberal activists blanched at the idea of being hookers themselves. It's definitely worth a read.

http://www.thefword.org.uk/features/2008/03/how_to_get_an_a_1

[NashVegas]

139. Big Time

IMO, these are just cats who want it as an economic investment.

[lightningandsnow]

140. I don't think Scarlet Alliance is sacred, and I don't have to agree with everything they say.

I'm not totally sure about this, and I do think the sex workers' rights movement does also need to focus on helping those who are in the trade nonconsensually, or who want out.

That being said, maybe it's because these laws harm those who are actually in the trade consensually? There's a difference between a well thought out anti-trafficking law, and a poorly-worded or poorly-executed one. I know that the UN anti-trafficking protocol defines trafficking as anyone crossing a border to engage in sex work - consensually or not. That means my friend is defined as a trafficked woman because she is a Canadian currently doing sex work in Australia. I have to find a copy of the protocol itself, but I do believe it says that "consent is irrelevant" - and ignoring somebody's personal wishes like that is not something I'd support.

Maybe they're taking aim at the current anti-trafficking protocols?

That being said, it could just be kind of reactionary. Which I wouldn't agree with - I think trafficking must be combated, but it must be done without harming the sex workers themselves.

[Eryemil]

72. "about how we should tread lightly around people who are into mutilating their own souls?"

Religious blather. Not the best place to begin forming a healthy argument.
Please try again.

[CoffeeCat]

92. oh come on...

There was no religious connotation there.

I was talking about a person's humanity--their core.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

45. They're Not Workers; They're Whores. But God Bless 'Em Anyway!

Viva la whores!

[MattBaggins]

74. Bull Puckey

1. So what; 0.00000001% of women in this industry are independent girls loving their job?

2. Depends on the situation but if I feel notifying a parent of what a kid is doing; I would, and if you feel that makes me a bad person, I don't much care.

3. Wrong once again. My knowing of the FACTS that that industry is dangerous are relevant and I will pass judgement on such a disgusting industry.

4. You got this one. I feel no desire to use those terms.

5. Please those of us that don't feel our sisters and daughters should be in back alleys being used as receptacles for men doesn't mean we have the issues.

I will not fall for this propaganda crap to whitewash the exploitation of women.

Just stop with this garbage.

[Brooklyns_Finest]

77. Insane

Anybody who tries to normalize this kind of activity is insane. Nothing postive comes out of encouraging streetwalkers. I would say most get in to the business because of desperation, but there are quite a few that do it because they are plain old lazy and want the quick cash.

I will also like to add that no one, man or woman, who does this for a living is mentally stable.

[lightningandsnow]

80. "I will also like to add that no one, man or woman, who does this for a living is mentally stable."

Woah. That's some broad brush you've got there.

Nobody who does it is mentally stable?

Pray tell, how many sex workers do you know?

[Brooklyns_Finest]

94. A few

I lived in Los Angeles for 3 years. In my time hanging in hollywood I have met a handfull of porn stars and partime hookers. In fact, I dated a girl who was a "recovering whore". Maybe it is just my experience (probably not), but everyone I have ever known had "issues" or atleast heavily in to drugs.

I mean lets get out of liberal fairy world and realize that these people fuck for a living. There is nothing respectable about it. And yes, I get to determine what I feel is a respectable profession.

[Dukkha]

86. I wonder if the same people who defend the article

would defend Joe Francis, Larry Flynt, Bob Guccione, The Mitchell Brothers, and other purveyors of sleaze as respectful businessmen who are just making their own choices. Or if that forced respect only allocated to the women in the business.

I will not be dictated by an article to be forced to accept something I find morally objectionable and has degraded the quality of life in my city.

[marshall]

99. Who is this directed at?

Friends of sex workers? Clients? Relatives? Co-workers in their "day jobs"?

I take it to mean any and all of the above. You never know if the person sitting next to you on the bus, at church, in class, or across the table might be a sex worker. Any jokes or slights could be hurtful and you many never even know why.

[Brooklyns_Finest]

102. So true

A few years ago me and my buddies went to vegas for some celebrations. We were hanging out at the belagio and my friend catches the secretary at his job working as a call girl. My friend works for a major financial institution in San Francisco. She must have made a decent salary, yet she was working as a hooker. To her credit, she played it cool. In the end she turned out to be a fool because she started to proposition my friend through their work e-mail. Nothing ever happened, and last I heard, she gained a lot of weight. Her hooker days are probably over.

[lightningandsnow]

113. This.

Yes. People need to know that sex workers aren't just some "fringe element" that emerges late at night.

[conscious evolution]

112. Here is a rule for sex workers

If you are dating someone TELL THEM you are a sex worker.

Its not very fun to meet someone,fall in love,then have them tell you they are a hooker after you are living together and that they will be bringing 'clients' home.

[Bucky]

133. Great advice. There's just some work you have to leave at the office.

PS, if I have to work at sex, am I a sex worker?

[Hello_Kitty]

116. Something to think about for all of you who approve of "sex work"

What if these services were as readily available to women as they are to men? What if married women could (and did) avail themselves of extramarital sex with prostitutes on a frequent basis?

What if it were a common practice for mothers to take their daughters to prostitutes to take their virginity and "tutor" them in sex?

If you are a married man reading this I want you to seriously think about your wife paying some dude to fuck her before coming home to you. Yes, I realize married women have affairs but an affair takes planning and logistical difficulties whereas calling an escort service and requesting a certain "type" or driving to a city's red light district takes no effort at all. What is your gut reaction to the thought of your wife being able to easily hire a prostitute to "give her all the things she can't get at home"? And if you are not a man or married, I want you to seriously think about it too. Can you imagine it?

Yes, I am being heterosexist here by my point is to point out the male privilege that undergirds these discussions. I really wonder what it would look like if everyone weren't operating off of certain assumptions.

This is a rhetorical exercise because I'm not particularly interested in people's answers that they arrive at after rationalizing and justifying. I'm not expressing an opinion either way on the legality of prostitution. Just think about it.

[Eryemil]

117. Yes, you are being heterosexist and most of the time I wouldn't bother to point this out

Since you are the majority after all and I hardly expect that degree of empathy out of the average person.

Frankly I find it hilarious that so many females here so far have posted about how the big bad prostitutes are fucking their men.
'Cause you know, I'm sure those dudes are being forced into it. How terrible.

It's like blaming McDonald's burger flippers because your kids are fat. Not in the sense that the women are directly responsible for the fact that men cheat on them but because you're basically blaming people that provide a service for the fact that some choose to indulge in it.

And by the way, I would love to see women be as sexual as men are. I still wonder just how much of the general female attitude towards sex is biological and how much is simply the result of thousands of years of oppression.
Whatever it is though, it'd sure go a long way in healing the rift between straight males and females that become more and more apparent as females cast off the vestiges of male dominance.

[Hello_Kitty]

122. Rationalizing and justifying.

Even throwing in the usual claptrap about "biological" differences.


Thanks for playing, though. :hi:

[Eryemil]

123. Sorry, this is a non-answer. Reply with specifics or don't bother at all

So you do not think that the responsibility lie on the husbands that choose to cheat?

[Hello_Kitty]

128. I was never interested in your response to my post in the first place.

I'm equally uninterested in answering to any of the queries you have. Your refusal to acknowledge or examine male privilege is your own problem. I asked you to *think* about something and you fire back red herrings. I don't have time to coddle male egos anymore. I just don't. So toodles. :hi:

[Scout]

146. show me ONE post by a DUer that supports your claim.....

"the big bad prostitutes are fucking their men"

show me.

[Hello_Kitty]

151. There isn't. It's a strawman and a red herring.

It's so obvious that many people have internalized so much male privilege (whether or not they are males themselves) that they cannot fathom a world where men are not presumed to be entitled to use other people's bodies to relieve themselves.

[mitchum]

119. I loath humanity too much to fuck people for $$$$, but that's just me

[Maru Kitteh]

164. Your post provokes the question; what would make it worthwhile?

.

[Runcible Spoon]

129. I have 100000% more respect for sex workers than bankers, hedge fund managers, etc.

They know the meaning of working for money. I would call Madoff a whore before I would demean a call girl/boy.

[eridani]

182. The most important difference between a hedge fund manager and a sex worker is

--that there are things that sex workers will refuse to do for money.

[Runcible Spoon]

187. DUZY!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

How true! :rofl:

[lightningandsnow]

188. Hahaha!

:rofl:

[GinaMaria]

135. I think something gets lost when discussing this topic without

looking at the whole spectrum of sex workers. In theory most of what is said here is absolutely true, but in practice we are talking about something else. Certainly a 30 year old woman who is educated and has many opportunities and choices and opts to be a sex worker isn't someone who needs anyone's concern or help. This is a choice and she clearly has a choice in this situation. I can appreciate many of the perspectives here in terms of Escorts and having adult friends who choose professions in the sex industry. But there is another reality to consider.

I also have a friend who prostituted herself. Her father was sexually inappropriate and her mother was brutal with her. She decided to run away at 14. She knew she couldn't get hired for a regular job because she was too young, so she planned out how much she would charge for sex acts and survive that way. She actually was very fortunate in that she never worked for a pimp and was never beaten by any of her clients (which is why many women have pimps). She would have preferred stripping but wasn't old enough.

She made way more money than she had planned. What she soon learned was that 14 is the golden year for female prostitutes who are on the street (not working through a service). It's the year they make the most money on the street. Everyone wants a 14 year old for some reason. When she was old enough she switched to stripping and sadly turned to drugs. She eventually found a way out. She is incredibly bright and strong, definitely a survivor.

I bring this up to remind you that there is a darker side to this broad spectrum that includes under aged children, both male and female. Maybe each situation should be evaluated separately and one set of rules may not be enough to cover everyone.

It's not Secret-Diary-of-a-Call-Girl for everyone in the industry, but neither is it doom, gloom and horror for ADULTS with many options who chose to do this for a living.

We need to be better to each other and especially our kids. The more we work to create options and opportunities for everyone in this country, then the closer we will be to achieving freedom and freedom of choice for ourselves.

Peace
GM

[lightningandsnow]

136. I very much agree with this comment.

And I'm sorry for what your friend went through.

I think you pretty much hit the proverbial nail on the head.

[GinaMaria]

153. There is probably more in this thread that most everyone

agrees to, but it gets lost in generalizations. None of us knows for sure what road we may have taken to survive if our circumstances had been different.

[Political Heretic]

177. Surely there must be a way to fairly acknowledge both sides without stereotyping

Great post. There must be a way to remember the very real dangers, tragedies and darkness that is sometimes a part of a sex workers experience while at the same time not mass generalizing or passing sweeping judgments.

[Cerridwen]

150. Thanks, lightningandsnow.

Good information and a very enlightening thread.

I'm glad you brought the information here.

:hi:

I noticed farley was mentioned up-thread. Here is a link to and a snippet from a response to her and her suspect research:

Fourth, Herbert and his source, Melissa Farley, both conflate juvenile and adult participation in prostitution and other segments of the sex industry. They are not the same. It is condescending to treat adult women who make choices as if they are the equivalent of children; it is even worse to dilute the special and unique issues associated with child rape/prostitution and sexual violence. To say that they're all just bad treats adults like kids and kids like adults, to the benefit of no one.

Finally, it is not accurate to say that all forms of prostitution and sex work are coercive or equally exploitative. Arrangements-- in the sex industry or otherwise -- that coerce, harass, abuse or marginalize women are the problem. When women cannot control their sexual images or their own embodied sexuality -- in the marketplace or at home -- they are vulnerable to victimization. But legal work situations where women's labor rights and human rights are protected are good for women; this is what we need to strive for in all workplaces, including the sex industry.

After conducting research on the sex industry for more than 10 years, we have found that women entering legal prostitution, for example, do so with widely different educations, relationships with parents and socio-economic resources. These factors determine where they work, who their customers are and how much they earn. Not all women in the sex industry have personal, social or economic resources. Inequalities exist and contribute to widely differing experiences. But nowhere near all adult women who work in the sex industry are horrendously impacted and "rotten" inside, victims of all measure of atrocities as Farley and Herbert would have us believe. Instead, we challenge you to dare to believe what many women tell us, dare to take them seriously when they describe a good life of their own choosing and a sense of empowerment in their sexuality. These voices cannot be reduced to those of passive victims.

There is a reply at that link from Jessie Winchester

who made worldwide headlines in the mid-1990s as a legal prostitute who competed in the Mrs. Nevada beauty pageant and later ran for Congress and Nevada lieutenant governor. The book brings the real world of legal bordello prostitution in Nevada to light and contains firsthand accounts of corruption and political dirty tricks in Nevada among both major parties. Her inspirational journey documents the strength of the human spirit in refusing to be held back by society's labels and limitations, and one woman's determination to help others and succeed -- against all odds. Now retired from the bordellos, Winchester is a Nevada-based businesswoman and activist.

This will, at least for the duration of my lifetime, be a contenious topic until some of the very values many people unquestioningly hold are challenged. Just as now, so many with the world view that free-market capitalism to be the one and only true god of economic systems are beginning to wonder if it's a false god.

[riverdeep]

179. I was one that referenced Farley,

there may have been others. I just pulled it off of Google, I actually had no idea who she is or the role she represents for some. But I see that she is a point of contention and controversy.

Regardless, there are many accounts of legalized prostitution being a nightmare. This is the account that I came across that woke me up to what goes on. She is actually one of those that feels prostitution is 'empowering' and all that jazz, so her account should be all the more alarming:

Don’t come here if you value your sanity, freedom, and self respect. Rules have changed and it has become like a boot camp, 6th grade classroom and jail. I don’t feel safe posting here while living and working here. It’s hell and I am really unhappy. Hoping to last until Friday. I cry all the time. Will post in detail later, after I leave as I will probably not return here or ANY legal brothel in Nevada again. Amanda, you were right…

http://marikopassion.wordpress.com/category/brothel
(day by day account of a sex worker's experiment with legal brothel's, needless to say, it gets explicit)

On a more general level, many prostitutes that tell of their experiences aren't of the Renegade Evolution (well known sex blogger) model and feel gung-ho positive about the experience. Quite a few that are lucky enough to choose it, are like this woman who feels very conflicted and sometimes quite depressed about the whole thing, but is addicted to what she sees as easy money:

Unlike some other escort bloggers, I’m wary of using words like “empowering” or “powerful” to describe how I feel about sex work. Nor do I feel like I provide some kind of therapy or emotional connection to men who aren’t getting it elsewhere. I can go through the hour being the fantasy girl, smiling sweetly, being understanding, and gratifying his urges, and that’s just it. The simple truth is, I’m just catering to somebody’s impulse. There’s no mysterious pussy spell that renders men helpless, at the mercy of women. Sexual power is granted and easily revoked.

All I do is supply a quick fix for urges and impulses that is ultimately never satisfying to the customer in the long run. People get addicted to prostitutes (and porn, and sex in general, and drugs). It is not glamourous or empowering to be a party to that. It’s just another thought I struggle with.

http://www.peridotash.com/?p=51
("Whores: Glamorous or Pathetic?")

Her blog is really quite fascinating in her brutal honesty with various subjects, like how she feels about married clients (not her responsibility), whether she would continue to work if she were diagnosed HIV+ (she would), and how she needs to go into a kind of trance for sex work to not become overpowering.

[smalll]

154. Oh wow. Now I'm supposed to be ever-so-gentle to those poor souls who make WAY over $100 an hour!

Especially in today's economy, they deserve our sympathy. Why, it only takes a long afternoon on their backs and they make as much as most of us make in a week. God forbid we "judge" them. Or make them feel less than pure as the driven snow. :shrug:

:nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity:

[EFerrari]

163. No. You should just continue to be your insightful self. It's worked for you so far, right?

[Greyhound]

178. I'd like to introduce you to OMC further up thread. You two would get on fabulously.

:eyes:

It's like tourette syndrome with you guys, you just can't stop yourselves...

[Sparkly]

155. Wow.

I was the first to reply to the OP, and never thought there'd be such arguments here!!

I'm still trying to think of DU as a progressive board, but man oh man... :crazy:

[Withywindle]

167. What I'm finding most horrifying about this thread

is not anyone's views of sex work AS WORK - whether they'd do it themselves, whether they think it's good for society, whether it can ever be non-exploitative. These are things reasonable people can disagree on reasonably.

It's the undertone in some of the posts that suggests a horrified resentment at the very idea that sex workers should be treated like equal human beings. That someone might even ask those posters to just consider that maybe, just maybe, their stereotypes of "tainted" and "dirty" and "ruined" and "fallen" are inaccurate and unfair.

:scared:

[TorchTheWitch]

169. I think I love you

So beautifully said, and so painfully true. And these are the same people claiming how badly we need their "help".

[Withywindle]

170. Aw, thanks. It's the 19th-century bourgeois reformer mentality.

Still to be found also in "faith-based" recovery programs and the like. "Help" is available as long as you admit that their views are the right and proper ones, and that you were deeply broken before and need fixing and re-education in order to be presentable.

Also, the idea that sex work isn't something women do it's something they are. Something that gets into their "soul" or their "core." It's very possible to oppose war, and yet not see soldiers as shameful and corrupted beings. Some people have a lot more trouble holding on to their rationality when it comes to sex and women.

[TorchTheWitch]

171. Exactly so

So many times I've had to explain to people that it's a job not a lifestyle. It would never cross my mind to do my grocery shopping in six inch heels and a tiny little school girl skirt. And it's usually those people think it's me that's the idiot. Oy.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

174. DU's demographics have changed dramatically in the last 2 years. It seems that there

is an absence of compassion by many posters. Now that the election is over, I'm noticing it more and more here in GD and it is saddening me.

[TorchTheWitch]

185. on this subject it's not about demographics

I've been here forever and there's nothing new or different about the responses here than from threads on the same subject way back when. Actually, I can recall many posts from years ago on this subject that were far more harsh than what appears here. It's same old, same old pretty much... and I'm harldy surprised. Some people will just never ever get it.

[Withywindle]

190. You can see the lack of compassion in the poverty threads too, I know what you mean.

But this goes deeper. It's the number of posters in threads about porn and sex work that TOTALLY buy into some aspects of patriarchy, even if they call themselves feminists (and I will never recognize as such those who insult other women the way they do). Specifically, the idea that the "wrong" kind of sex somehow stains a woman for life.

It's the idea that a woman who has had or performed sex for money willingly has entered into some "unclean," subhuman zone where she has given up the right to speak for herself about her own reality and be taken seriously. Either she's an abused victim who's too broken to know her own mind, or else she's just a walking cunt who's legitimate fodder for insults, and how dare she claim to still have a functioning and more-important brain.

It makes me wonder just how much and what kind of sex a woman can get away with having before she's ruled outside the pale of women allowed to have a voice that gets listened to.

[Chovexani]

191. QFT.

It makes me wonder just how much and what kind of sex a woman can get away with having before she's ruled outside the pale of women allowed to have a voice that gets listened to.

A-fuckin-men.

You were 100% right when you talked about the old school reformer mentality. I refuse to treat grown sex workers like subhuman garbage or broken children and fuck anyone who says that makes me a bad feminist. We should not be in the business of judging and condemning women or anyone else who chooses sex work (a lot of this discussion is heterosexist, to no surprise; I see no discussion of the many transfolk who perform sex work). Period. The Kyriarchy does that just fine without our help.

What we should be doing is fighting for better working conditions, helping sex workers get unionized, etc. Fighting to tear down the system that creates trafficking and unsafe conditions in the first place, etc. They don't call it the world's oldest profession for nothing, and no amount of moralizing from the left or the right will get rid of it. Prohibition never works, it just creates and exacerbates problems.

[Withywindle]

193. It is heterosexist.

Upthread I saw one guy arguing from his perspective as a gay man - that gets written off a lot because men are "supposed" to be crude sexual beasts so it's OK for them, but women are "supposed" to be...I dunno, more spiritual or something? :shrug: (Your basic '50s 'nice girls don't' crap; I swear a lot of what I see here is women reverting back to junior high and yelling 'SLUT' at the girl they felt superior to.)

I don't know much about trans people in the sex trade - I know they're there, always have been. I wish someone who knows that perspective would speak up, but considering how abusive this thread is, I can't expect that of anyone.

What we should be doing is fighting for better working conditions, helping sex workers get unionized, etc. Fighting to tear down the system that creates trafficking and unsafe conditions in the first place, etc. They don't call it the world's oldest profession for nothing, and no amount of moralizing from the left or the right will get rid of it. Prohibition never works, it just creates and exacerbates problems.

EXACTLY and that's what the link in the OP was about. Or even just kind of a bare minimum etiquette guide about how not to treat sex workers like some kind of 'untouchable' social caste. And alleged progressives swoon and fume like feudal lords and ladies asked politely to not kick the peasants.

[NashVegas]

195. You Seem To Be Mistaking Antipathy For Parasitic Managers and Investors

For scorn of the labor end.

[Political Heretic]

175. Number three is the one that needs repeated over and over and over and over and over and over

[TWiley]

189. hell, I would take a look at her beaver

I mean, if she is gonna whip it out.

[silverojo]

194. Would this also work for girlfriends of Hugh Hefner? - n/t