Mel Gibson/the Mayans/and an ignorant, rude audience

[donsu]

http://media.sundial.csun.edu/media/storage/paper862/news/2007/03/26/News/Mel-Gibson.Lashes.Out.During.apocalypto.Screening-2789703.shtml


Mel Gibson lashes out during 'Apocalypto' screening


Mel Gibson was at the center of an uproar Thursday night at the Armer Theater in Manzanita Hall at CSUN when a Central American Studies professor spoke out against the way Mayans are depicted in Gibson's film "Apocalypto."

Central American Studies Professor Dr. Alicia Estrada asked Gibson if he understood the negative portrayal of Mayans in the film. Estrada went on to say that Mayans have suffered from death and poverty but were depicted as ignorant and bloodthirsty in the film.

Members of the Mayan community were present and Estrada passed the microphone to Mayan community leader Felipe Perez who read in Spanish, the Mayan community's response to the film. Estrada translated, but because of the audience uproar, she could not be heard.

While Estrada and Perez spoke, CTVA students and others in the audience booed, yelled, "This is America, speak English!" and shouted for them to sit down and shut up.

Due to the yelling, Gibson said, "I can't understand what you're saying."

Security personnel began pushing the speaker and turned off Perez's microphone. Gibson said to let them talk, and the microphone was turned back on.

"I'm not offending you. I'm treating you with respect," Estrada said.

Gibson responded with liberal use of the f-word. Audience members clapped and cheered, one even turning to Estrada and clapping in her face.

Estrada and Perez were escorted out, but not before Gibson said, "I think you're a fucking troublemaker, so fuck off."

The Mayan community response that Perez was reading to Gibson and the audience stated, "We believe that examining us using the lens of Western culture, you are describing us as savages and barbarians, which is the exact description of our cultures made by those who used rape, torture, murders, and massacres to subjugate us."
-snip-
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what a puke of a man Mel Gibson is

[ropi]

1. wow

i am even more shocked by the behavior of the students towards the professor and her guest.

[AllieB]

3. Must have been the Campus Young Republicans in the audience

They have no respect for other cultures, and 'librul' professors.

[Solo_in_MD]

12. Why, it would appear they were trolling and got treated accordingly

[Leopolds Ghost]

13. Interesting you would think that way.

When they make a movie that explicitly denigrates your ancestors, and your students threaten you verbally and get security guards to escort your professor!!!! out of the building for inviting an actual Mayan speaking Spanish!!!!

...You will feel differently.

This doesn't sound like Young Republicans, it sounds like Neo-Nazi white supremacists -- literally. Mel Gibson has a big following of them, out west. Central Valley, Nevada, Oregon, Washington, Idaho.

[gatorboy]

2. "This is America, speak English!" Eh???

Shouldn't they be pushing this on Mel? I mean, there isn't a lick of English in the film. :rofl:

[AmyDeLune]

4. Shouldn't we all be speaking Native American dialects?

Just sayin' ;)

[Squatch]

5. I actually enjoyed Apocalypto and Passion of the Christ...

then again, I know when the film I'm watching has taken artistic license with history and couched the subject matter as either entertainment or fiction or both. I find reading historical texts and textbooks a far more reliable than 2-hour long Hollywood blockbusters.

[cgrindley]

6. There are much bigger issues here

What you're seeing is an ignorant drunken antisemitic filmmaker caught in the middle of an academic brawl between his technical advisor (who stands with anthropological tradition, however patriarchal and western-oriented that is) and those inherently opposed to that point of view.

If you actually read that final quotation the article provides... "we believe that examining us using the lens of Western culture, you are describing us as savages and barbarians". Basically, she isn't denying that the Mayans had a bloodthirsty state that gloried in continuous warfare and human sacrifice, but instead of addressing what one archaeologist called "the tyranny of the archaeological record", she instead is claiming that through a non-western lens, those "western" concerns would not be Mayan concerns. This is true enough, seen through a Mayan lens, Mayan culture is not bloodthirsty.

I would wade in and say that in my opinion, there are absolutel standards for human rights and that its love of human sacrifice renders the Mayan civilization utterly repulsive, but I'll try to stay out of it for the same reason Mel should stay out of it.

This is an academic spat where the best policy would be to let people like Hansen (Gibson's advisor on Apocalypto) duke it out with his detractors.

Scholarship, so far, is supremely uninterested in the debate. There are three refereed articles on Apocalypto--one 1/2 page editorial announcing a general hatred for it; one attack based on a cultural apology for human sacrifice; and one interview with Hansen. There are 70 or so non-refereed articles, but these are utterly and completely worthless from an academic point of view.

For what it's worth, Hansen clearly outranks and outpublishes his detractors.

[Phredicles]

8. While it's true that Estrada's critiscisms may not be valid on academic

grounds, the whole mob scene here is rather disturbing, and St. Mel contributed to it.


Also, I wonder if the usual rightie talking heads who caterwaul about "PC Thought Police" will be criticising the suppression of Estrada's viewpoint, however misdirected it may have been. Something tells me they won't.:eyes:

[cgrindley]

9. It's a matter of appropriate venue

the appropriate venue for a scholarly debate is not anything that Mel Gibson attends.

[Leopolds Ghost]

15. Yes, the neo-nazi white supremacists in the audience should not be disturbed by facts.

They are there to learn about the evils of Mayan culture in order to help understand why it was important for the US Government to practice Mayan human sacrifice on a mass scale in El Salvador and Guatemala using CIA trained death squads in an effort to wipe out said culture.

[cgrindley]

26. What are you going on about?

How is anything in this century relevant in a discussion of Mayan archaelogy? Or are you suggesting that the Mayans were attacked by US death squads teleported back in time? Like in the Philadelphia Experiment or something? Is that what you're suggesting?

[Leopolds Ghost]

14. cgrindley, your academic posturing here amuses me.

Mel Gibson's academic advisor was clearly not aware that the Spaniards did not liberate jungle-dwelling highland Mayans from the lowland Mayans in 1000 AD.

Mel Gibson's academic advisor was apparently not aware that the jungle-dwelling highland Mayans, while comparatively archaic, had stonecraft and worshipped (and continue to worship) at the ruined
temples of their ancestors, in the jungle highlands. One of
these tribes were not contacted before the 1950s. They wore
well-crafted clothing and lived in villages, not jungle wigwams.

Mel Gibson's academic advisor was clearly not aware that the Mayans
were NOT the Aztecs and did not practice extensive human sacrifice
on the scale of Mexica, Carthage, or the Anglo-Saxon kings.

They mostly practiced self-mutilation, a practice that morphed into
sacrifice of prisoners as it moved northwards, finally reaching
its limit with the bloodthirsty (and highly "civilized") Aztecs.

Continue on with your assumptions, however. I await your condemnation
of Anglo-Saxon, Celtic, and Roman civilization with their bloodthirsty
rituals.

Perhaps you will regale us with an inaccurate description of how fortunate the Peruvians were to be rescued from their evil overlords by the God-fearing Spanish.

Or perhaps you will ignore (as Mel did) the fact that some civilized tribes practiced human sacrifice while many other civilized tribes (including several deified leaders, such as Quetzalcoatl) considered it an abomination, which is why they allied with Cortez!!

The reality is that ancient civilizations were rife with, or built on, violence and kleptocracy. Cf. Jared Diamond. It was the first urban societies across the globe -- China, Near East, Gaul, Carthage, Mexica -- that practiced human sacrifice on an organized scale. Everyone else was still practicing feudal/tribal vendetta honor warfare and killing each other in a disorganized and limited fashion like we're now doing in Iraq.

[cgrindley]

25. I don't have a dog in this race

I advise you to write an article on the archaeological inaccuracies of the film and submit it to a journal of anthropology.

Judging from interviews with Hansen, he was well aware of issues of accuracy, but could not dissuade the filmmakers from making a film.

I'd suggest that you take up whatever you think is the archaelogical record with this guy:

Dr. Richard D. Hansen is a specialist on the early Maya and is the Director of the Mirador Basin Project in northern Guatemala. He was an Assistant Research Scientist (Level IV) with the Institute of Geophysics and Planetary Physics at UCLA until Dec. 2003. He is the founder and president of the Foundation for Anthropological Research and Environmental Studies (FARES), a non-profit scientific research institution, now based in Washington, D.C. He graduated with a Ph.D. in Archaeology from UCLA in January 1992. He previously held a double major B.S. degree in Spanish and Archaeology from Brigham Young University in 1978, and a M.S. degree in Anthropology in 1984. While a Ph.D. student at UCLA, he was selected by the U.S. Department of Education as a National Graduate Fellow and a Jacob Javits Fellow from all college and university students throughout the nation in the arts, humanities, and social sciences for five years. He was named the UCLA Distinguished Scholar in 1988, a Fulbright Scholar in 1990, the UCLA Outstanding Graduate Student in 1991, and the UCLA Chancellor's Marshall in 1992. He has published 69 papers and book chapters in scientific and popular publications and has presented more than 145 professional papers in scientific symposia throughout the world. He has conducted and/or directed archaeological research in Israel, the U.S. Great Basin, the U.S. Southwest, and Central America.

How many articles have you published on Mayan archaelogy?

[DinahMoeHum]

7. Seems our man Gibson needs more anger management classes.

:evilfrown:

[Solo_in_MD]

11. On how to deal with trolls

[Leopolds Ghost]

16. Methinks thou doth protest too much.

"The professor in charge of Mayan studies at the school he lectured at is nothing but a troll," barked the Gibson supporter, loudly.

[Solo_in_MD]

18. Trolling is quite fashionable on campuses these days

I find it amusing when a troll gets called on it and the false outrage that follows. Whether its Mayan Studies or the Repuke fake bake sales.

[pink-o]

10. I'm sorry I have a HUGE problem with westerners making value judgements

...on indigenous populations--especially pre-Colombian Americans. The Spanish came over and called these people barbarians--they of the Inquistions and burning at the stake. I learned in school that Cortez was the great "Conquistador" when he and the Spaniards conquered the native population by killing them with smallpox and syphillis.

The Aztecs and Mayans had amazing civilisations that were destroyed when western man crawled onto the beaches of Vera Cruz--and I think Professor Estrada had every right to complain that portraying them as "barbarians" was racist and jaundiced thru western eyes. Idiot Gibson, who thinks my people killed his messiah, is just proving western ignorance.

However, the other posters are right: it's frightening to see Prof Estrada shut down, insulted and threatened by students, who should be far more open-minded.

We've devolved hideously as a culture in the last 7 years. Scary to see.

[Leopolds Ghost]

17. How about... escorted out by security?? And when did the Gibson fans oppose use of Mayan language?

Guy could have given his speech in native Mayan,
unlike Latin, it is not a dead language.

the fact he was shouted down suggests neo-nazis
in the audience, frankly, of which I would not
be surprised.

There is a huge and growing organized racist/neo-nazi/nativist
subculture in the US, as in Europe. These are the same people
who went to work as contractors after Katrina, encouraging the
officials to seal off the city, not allow anyone out on foot,
and conducting gun battles with gang members in hopes of
igniting the "coming race war". Northern Louisiana had been
war-gaming how to handle the fall of New Orlean for decades
before Katrina hit. Same types of people who (ironically)
boo a Mayan for pointing out inaccuracies.

[Czolgosz]

19. This story is OBVIOUSLY made up

If it were true, Gibsom would have called Dr. Alicia Estrada "Sugar Tits."

[UTUSN]

20. What the heck (re-post)

Here's the deal. I'm not a Mel fan. I might have seen Mad Max back when, I don't remember. But I certainly didn't see the cop buddy ones. I saw his Hamlet and thought it was all right, or so-so, or same'ol'. Last year saw Gallipoli on t.v., and it was bigger than just him, was not a Mel movie so to speak. O.K., saw Braveheart and The Patriot, and started wondering about the violence.

I went out of my way to see The Passion because of the brouhaha and was one of the first here on DU to call it nothing more than a snuff film.

So I saw Apocalypto, and I gotta say that it was spellbinding. I don't know how or whether the Mayas were as bloodthirsty as in the movie or whether Mel conflated them into the Aztecs. But what MOVIE has much historical credibility?

Now, I lambasted The Passion because of its being a tool for the Fundies. I despise Mel's Da, and my growing suspicion is that Mel shares more of Da's philosophy than he lets on. And the blood-soakingness of anything Mel has control over is a bigger concern all the time.


Well, there are MANY flicks I've seen only snatches of, never the whole thing. But I was prepared to LUERVE this one, being a Classics devotee (not an ERUDITE one, mind you).

And being unfamiliar with the comics source, still, I was somewhat prepared by leafing through the accompanying illustrated deal-ly at the bookstore.

My gripes: It was DARK (like the comic). Whatever happened to the sun drenched Greek isles? (I say this despite Homer's "wine dark seas".) It ought to win something for cinematography and/or art direction. It *did* have the look of the comics.

The other gripe: It was clash-clash-clash, slo-mo ad nauseum. Yeah, beautiful to look at.

It's like looking at a painting that moves a little. There's action, then there's ACTION. There's chase, then there's CHASE. For example, in Jurassic Park, where they drop in a few characters then the rest of the movie is being chased by big lizards-------not my type of movie. Contrast that with the much maligned Apocalypto, where the CHASE is the entire movie, but the personal love story is what propels the whole thing. (I can't think of a comparable analagy for the actinon vs ACTION angle.)

I'll probably give it a chance again someday. Not soon. On DVD, on a LONG day.


For the record, the other movie I walked out of was Barefoot in the Park in 1967-8. Shrill squabbling in a "romantic" couple, bleah!!1 Can't stand to argue, can't stand FLAMING!!1

Here's what I thought about Apocalypto, in light of his latest, his YELLING at Maya critics:

Here's the deal. I'm not a big Mel fan, but used to have a mildly pleasant impression of him. I might have seen Mad Max back when, I don't remember. But I certainly didn't see the cop buddy ones. I saw his Hamlet and thought it was all right, or so-so, or same'ol'. Last year saw Gallipoli on t.v., and it was bigger than just him, was not a Mel movie so to speak. O.K., saw Braveheart and The Patriot, and started wondering about the violence.

I went out of my way to see The Passion because of the brouhaha and was one of the first to call it nothing more than a snuff film.

So I saw Apocalypto, and I gotta say that it was spellbinding. I don't know how or whether the Mayas were as bloodthirsty as in the movie or whether Mel conflated them into the Aztecs. But what MOVIE has much historical credibility?

Now, I lambasted The Passion because of its being a tool for the Fundies. I despise Mel's Da, and my growing suspicion is that Mel shares more of Da's philosophy than he lets on. And the blood-soakingness of anything Mel has control over is a bigger concern all the time.

All disclaimers aside, I'm saying that Apocalypto was compelling in its thin storyline. I mean it was basically all a chase. And I have NO patience for almost all chase films. I'll say again that I didn't see the last 30 seconds with the European While males arriving as a message that they were the "saviors". I saw it as a stunning plot device, a deus ex machina, because the bloodthirsty killers were only stopped by one thing before, an eclipse, and only something earth shattering in their world view would stop them in their tracks, such as the sight of the ships and the utterly ALIEN men.

Now, Mel's drunken rant on Jews was undoubtedly wrong. But, while I have my doubts as mentioned about whether he actually DOES share his Da's views, I know that alcohol is mind ALTERING. Try driving or TYPING here under the influence and see what makes sense.

As for this current episode: I still have a reservoir of the "good Mel" if there ever was one. While watching the Oscars and hearing the 3 nominations for Apocalypto, I was sad at thinking what a creative person feels when their extensive good work is overshadowed by something extraneous to it.

And digging my hole deeper: We Dems (actually ALL partisans) tend to cater to---or PANDER to---our constituencies and paint rosy pictures of what we want to hear about them, and saying what THEY want to hear. I don't KNOW what the Maya were like. In fact, to a degree I thought GIBSON's personalizing and individualizing the story was an anachronism and that he was projecting our historically modern narcissism back on them. So it goes back to the beginning of this post, that almost NO movies are historically accurate, and so far as that goes, people who want a different movie SHOULD make their own.

[Javaman]

21. Two things...

one, mel is a better actor than he is a director. And his acting skills, in my opinion, are only slightly above marginal.

two, if these people didn't like his movie, perhaps they should make one of their own to set the story straight.

Being a filmmaker myself, I'm always amused when people criticize my work, because it's their opinion based upon their life's experience. Some people really try to bait me when asking me leading questions regarding my work to create a confrontation, I just smile and say, "what is your point?" After they spout off their anger, I reply, "that's your opinion, thank you". Smile then take the next question. Getting nasty with the audience or someone asking you a leading question really does no good.

The art of real criticism in cinema is a lost art. People think taking personal attacks are a form of critique.

As far as the protesters, having studied the Mayan culture myself, I think they may have had a valid point, but given the forum in which they choose to air their complaints was very ill planned. No one heard what they said, and the mouth breathers in the audience wouldn't give them a chance to speak.

The odds were sadly stacked against them.

[Solo_in_MD]

22. They knew what the reaction would be going in...that makes them trolls

and the scenario contrived.

[Javaman]

23. True to an extent.

Knowing it but then playing dumb is what makes them trolls.

if they knew and it was a form of protest, then they get what comes to them, however, the comments about "speak english" by the mouth breathers in the audience, was uncalled for.

[Rex]

24. 'I think you're a fucking troublemaker, so fuck off.'

Didn't the Romans say that about Jesus? :drumroll: