I just watched SICKO. Now I understand why Michael Moore is villified by the

[Horse with no Name]

corporate masters/MSM.
IF Sicko was required viewing for all Americans, people would be pissed. Especially anyone who ever had premiums jacked up, procedures denied, or crippling medical bills.
They may have been able to carry out their facade for decades, however, but in all reality, ANYONE who has dealt with these jackbooted thugs KNOWS that even having insurance doesn't guarantee you will get the procedure you need, or the drug you need, or the treatment you need. Anyone who has had to wait weeks for diagnostic procedures...or had them denied...can't deny any longer that WE are the country who has it WRONG. DEAD wrong for many.

[BlooInBloo]

1. Yup.

[aquart]

2. Yup. People don't realize it's about the ones who HAVE insurance.

People who haven't seen it, I mean. That was a shock. These horror stories are from people who thought they were covered.

[Horse with no Name]

3. It IS a perverse notion, isn't it?

That people (collectively) who are insured could care less about the uninsured UNTIL they learn that they are underinsured.
Then they get pissed.

[demodonkey]

4. It's all about me, me, meeeeee! But hey, whatever it takes to wake 'em up.

Single payer healthcare for all. We can't afford NOT to do this.

[justgamma]

5. The argument that riles me up is

"you want your doctor deciding your healthcare, not the government."

No, I want some 24 year old jerk that doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground, who works for the insurance companies, telling my doctor and I what medical care is needed.

[demodonkey]

6. Yeah, they ought to be sued for practicing medicine without a license!

That would stew them up.

[OmahaBlueDog]

7. Exactly - you won't trust the government, but you'd trust an HMO?

[Horse with no Name]

8. As far as I am concerned

There really is NO difference in the government dictating my healthcare or the insurance company dictating my healthcare. In the past few months, I have had to file a complaint with the State Board of Insurance and file two grievances with my insurance company for them to pay for a surgery they said they would pay for--at least until they said it wasn't necessary.:eyes:
I also went to pick up a prescription the other day. My Doc wrote it for 14 days. It is an expensive prescription. The insurance company would ONLY pay for 3 days--then you had to fight them for the rest. I am already battle weary so we just changed my prescription and crossed our fingers hoping it will work THIS time (since it didn't work when I took it a month ago). It just wasn't worth the hassle.
The ONLY difference is if the government dictates it, I don't have to pay a large chunk of my salary to fund it.

[demodonkey]

9. Without the "for profit" motive, the govt will have less incentive to deny things.

I have NO healthcare at all now, so this will make a big difference to me and millions like me.

[OmahaBlueDog]

12. Less, but not none

There will still be budgetary targets, and there will still be charts saying that "proceure B costs less than procedure A, and has only a marginal difference in outcomes, so go with B".

Also, without a profit motive, there will be less incentive for hospitals to get the most advanced, state of the art equipment. At one level, that may be a good thing -- it will cut down on overlap. On the other hand, you may end up having to go across town to get an MRI, since the hospital next to you decided there wasn't a profit in having one.

[demodonkey]

29. The hospitals ownership won't be affected at all. HR 676 is single-payer, NOT nationalized care.

Under single payer, hospitals will still get what they need to practice medicine as they do now in other nations with single payer systems. And the costs for this "expensive" equipment will come down in the USA as it has in every other nation with single-payer healthcare. In addition, there will be less unnecessary testing as doctors won't need to practice so much defensive medicine. A large part of medical malpractice lawsuits are to pay for future medical care; if care is provided there will be less pressure from lawsuits. This will cut malpractice insurance costs for both hospitals and doctors.

I urge you to watch this PBS documentary: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/

In my case, with no healthcare coverage I can't get any MRI at all right, now -- NONE. Not near my house, not "across town", not anywhere. NO MRI FOR ME because I don't have the cash to pay for it. And I need an MRI, right now even as I write this, for a potentially serious problem that I have had to "let go" for over a year.

Single-payer healthcare for all. We can't afford NOT to do this.

[OmahaBlueDog]

10. Government healthcare would have issues, to be sure

For example, those who say "everything would be covered" under single payer are going to be disillusioned. "Everything" is in the eye of the beholder. I doubt any national plan will cover chiropractic, it might or might not cover podiatry, it likely wouldn't cover accupuncture, weight management, etc. And we would probably not be able to go straight to specialists, but will have primary care "gatekeepers". The big diff, however, will be that everyone would have basic coverage that would allow them to get treated before a problem gets so bad it involves an emergency room and hospitalization. The second big diff will be that far fewer will go bankrupt seeking coverage. I say far fewer because I recognize that some, like yourself, are going to have to lay out funds while battling over a disputed issue, and others will want procedures and therapies that won't be offered here.

[Horse with no Name]

13. Mine doesn't cover weight treatment

But it covers hardons (or lack thereof) and smoking cessation.
I don't EXPECT "everything" to be covered...and to be sure, EVERYTHING is not covered in my policy now (even stuff that is supposed to be covered if they can find a way to deny it).
Most people who advocate universal healthcare are not foolish enough to think that everyone can run out and have gastric bypasses, tummy tucks and new boobs. However, necessary medical procedures WILL be available in a timely manner and if you have dealt with any insurance companies lately, that is the best you can get from them too.

[OmahaBlueDog]

17. Those with chronic debilitation stand to gain

Take, for example, someone who ends up with a back injury as a result of an accident. For the sake of discussion, it's a car accident, and your auto insurance ends up covering the claim. Currently, the claims adjusters will weigh the matter purely on costs and outcomes. Thus, if surgery to fix your chronic pain costs $100,000, and has a 75% chance of success, they may feel fully justified in saying "y'know, we can buy this guy a lifetime supply of oxycodone for $10,000, because the cost is far less, and the outcome of the surgery isn't guaranteed." Obviously, that's an oversimplification, but I've seen situations about that bad.

I agree that "ost people who advocate universal healthcare are not foolish enough to think that everyone can run out and have gastric bypasses, tummy tucks and new boobs." However, I think a lot of people don't realize it's going to be a lot more like having an HMO than having Federal Government Blue Cross.

[TheBigotBasher]

26. Fight for a comprehensive National Health Service

Have a proper look at the UK NHS. Less per person than the US Medicare system. Our overall expenditure on health care is 1/3 less as a percentage spend of the GDP than the US and we have a higher life expectancy.

Weight management clinics - check
chiropractic clinics - check
podiatry clinics (chiropodists)- check
smoking cessation (most definitely)
free flu jabs for the elderly - check

Choice in hospitals. Check.
A GP able to visit you in your home. Check
A target of 3month wait for the most minor of operation; soon to be reduced to one.

Not bad. And if you want private health care you can get it. For example www.bupa.co.uk and their comprehensive cover is far far cheaper than that of the US as they have to compete against free at the point of use.

As for what medical procedure is decided - Doctors decide. Always. There may be arguments about particular drugs, especially new ones, but a specialist body is responsible for resolving those. (Called NICE).

I would argue we have the better University Hospitals and better medical research. Competition between hospitals (patients are allowed to choose which hospital they want to go to) means machinery is advanced, not just up to date.

The NHS is a perfect example of good well run universal health care. When Republicans say that it will go bad, it means they will make it go bad as it is not Government that is bad, it is simply that they have no idea how to run good government.

As for any examples of Daily Mail scare stories they throw at you about patients being left on trolleys (these are mobile beds not supermarket trolleys), for hours, awaiting treatment. They are at least awaiting treatment. They will be seen. They will be treated. These stories come from Accident & Emergency Rooms. Where people have grazed their knee to hacked off an arm. Very serious injuries are seen immediately. Less serious injuries are seen within 2 to 4 hours. That is a much much better situation than someone not beig treated AT ALL because they have no insurance.

[wolfgangmo]

30. Thank you for repeating the talking points.

I don't think you mean to but there are some important misconception that you are repeating.

I will use Canada to illustrate as they are the closest industrialized country with universal care. You are correct that there will be an evaluation by any universal care governing body as to what will be payed for and for how much. Given the Canada spends about 1/2 that the US does we have some room to wiggle here.

As for chiropractic, naturopathic etc. care, it is the rare plan in the US that covers them, but in Canada it is not expensive to purchase secondary medical insurance that does cover them. The main reason that secondary health care insurance that covers the aforementioned as well as dental, vision etc is so inexpensive is that Canada has many fewer lawsuits and those lawsuits result in MUCH lower payouts; the reason being that ongoing medical care is the largest part of any settlement and that care is covered under the universal coverage, thus not part of any pay out.

In Canada and many other countries with universal care you can see any doctor you want, which is NOT THE CASE for most Americans. We get to see the doc picked from a list that our insurance company gives to us and if we are lucky that doc will still be taking patients from that insurance company. We actually have less choice. As for specialists, the waiting lists here in the US are as long or longer. According to a study published by the New England Journal of medicine 3 years ago, the wait time for ER's and specialists in the US are longer than in other G8 countries. So much for that lie. An expample of this would be my mother and I. She lives in Canada and needed to see a good orthopedic surgeon. Her wait time was 2 days. I needed to see a neurosurgeon in the US and it took 3 months. She spent 1 hours with her surgeon. I spent 5 minutes with mine.

I think we are on the same side here, but please drop the assumptions that have been fed to all of us. Universal is so accomplishable in the US it is painful to see that it is not. Look to the insurance companies to frame any move toward universal health car as a jobs issue.

[Raster]

45. Thank you for bringing logic and good, CORRECT information to this discussion.

Unfortunately, when we discuss healthcare in America, too many people parrot the corporate line simply because they don't know any better. And how can you blame them? It's not as if the corporate-controlled main-stream media encourages debate and discussion and brings accurate information to the table. The last thing the corporate-controlled MSM wants is discussion with accurate information about heathcare, the environment and climate change, the economy, corporate welfare, the military/industrial complex and it's veritable financial death grip on the United States.

Silence = acceptance!:kick:We Can Do Better!

[Bluenorthwest]

36. My spendy insurance does not cover

Chiro or accupuncture, which are the treatmenst I most need. The British NHS does cover chiro, and podiarty, and preventative measures such as smoking cessation. Preventative medice saves money, so weight managment is money very well spent indeed.
My insurance, and most in the US, already require a referal to a specialist from your Primary. So if that were the case with single payer, it would be no change at all.
So. I spend like crazy, can not go to specialist without a referal, my insurance already covers less alternative medicine than the British system. And when I go to the Primary, I pay. When I go to the specialist I pay again. When I buy meds, I pay, and usually have no idea how much until they give me the meds. Could be $10 could be $155...

[fishwax]

11. true

:kick:

[Two Americas]

14. pretty good, isn't it?

Moore is a neighbor, and did an interesting thing. He premiered the film, with no fanfare, at the little local theater as sort of a private showing for his neighbors and friends, and I got a chance to be among the first 200 to see it before it was released and to chat with Mike and hang out with him. It is a conservative rural area, and probably 2/3 or more of the audience is Republican voters, but there wasn't a person there who didn't come out of that film radicalized by the experience. The right wingers desperately do not want people to see this film.

[Horse with no Name]

15. That was way cool to get to be in that first group to see it

I have to say I was literally astonished to see the QUALITY of life in France.
Simply amazing.
I'm in shock that on the highway of life--other countries are Jaguars and we are Yugos. I can't think of ONE good reason for that type of economic disparity. Not one.:(

[Two Americas]

18. it was memorable

No press there, other than one reporter from the little local small town paper! He is just a regular guy who you see around, and so long as we don't tell tales out of school (if I ever meet you in person I have a few pretty funny stories) or make a fuss, he is just another local.

You know what struck me about the film? The contrast between the stress levels of people here when compared to people in other countries. You can see it in the body language, the facial expressions, and in the way people talk. People here struggle to put their thoughts together, they talk in a halting way, there is fear in their eyes, a rigidity in their posture and movements. We are a seriously traumatized and terrorized people. I think that has crept up on us gradually over the years, and you don't notice it until you have something to compare it with. The way we are living here is not right, and humans should not be submitted to it. Mike said he noticed that, too. We are like fish in an aquarium, and the water has been gradually becoming more and more poisoned, but we can't see out and we can't remember how things once were. We keep trying to stay sane and adjust to increasingly insane circumstances.

[izquierdista]

25. Quality of life

America is a very isolated place, and its citizens have no clue, not one hint about the quality of life elsewhere. They yell "we're #1, we're #1", take a look across the border at Tijuana or Juarez, which confirms their claim, and proceed to write off the rest of the world. I have done a lot of traveling in the last 5 years and I have news for them: there's about two dozen countries with a BETTER quality of life than America, and the list is growing.

Remember Poland? Communist bloc, wait in line to buy toilet paper, Poland? The quality of life there is going to zoom past life in the upper midwest, where most Poles who emigrated to America went. Yes, Poland was a shitty place when grandpa or great-grandpa emigrated to Hamtramck, but nowadays the reverse trip is looking better and better. Think they don't have consumer products in Poland? With Tesco, Auchan, and Carrefour, they have shelves stocked with the same Chinese crap Americans think is so great. Their public transport is far, far better than any place in America, even though they use hand-me-down trains from Germany. I can't speak personally about medical services, but dental work costs about 1/3 of the price charged in the U.S.

The Protestant work ethic has worked well in America -- for the top 1%. The keep feeding the message that if you work hard you can get ahead. That keeps the profits flowing to them, while they provide a pittance of a vacation, a sham of health insurance, and put off public transportation to some time in the distant future. All while expecting the average American to go further and further into debt to afford the education and housing that this quality of life provides.

[Bluenorthwest]

39. quality of straight, white life is what you mean

Have you any idea the level of oppresion GLBT people face in Poland? Of course not. While you think Tesco is what makes a place livable, for many minority peoples, not being harassed or harmed is far more important than your supermaket crap. You can get off on Tesco being there. The fact that more than half the people in that Tesco think people like me 'should not be tolerated' puts a crimp in Warsaw for millions of people.
In fact, thousands of GLBT people left Poland as soon as they were allowed, and continue to come to the UK, US, France and other places that are not so fully opprssive.
So while it might be nice for you, that is not the case for others. That reverse trip looks better to some segments of society, white, straight segments. Oh. And non Jewish. Those of us who are not part of the majority there remember stuff. Like genocide. Details to you, but to me, it beats out the Tesco pretty strongly in the 'show us your culture' game.
I knew white folk back in the 80's who loved Sun City too. They had a resort and casino! Geez.

[izquierdista]

40. Yes, I do

What can you expect from a Catholic country that hangs on every word that comes out of the Vatican? One can hope that by being in the EU, and wanting to stay in the EU, Poland will be forced to become as open thinking as the French, the Germans and the Dutch. Time will tell.

What I was pointing out, with Poland as an example, is that America has stood still as far as medical care, public transport, vacations, and education are concerned, pumping half their budget into the military, while other countries have advanced their citizens' quality of life. And I wonder if the GLBT oppression you are concerned about is any worse in Warsaw than it is in cities across red state America.

[Bluenorthwest]

41. Well, when I read that a place is a paradise

and that Americans only care about buying crap, I take issue with that. I don't live in red state America. But the fact is that even though many nations have far harsher laws on the books, Poland comes in among the top ten dangerous places for gay folk, because of the cultural attitudes. There are many Catholic nations who do not make that list, just saying. Many.
Plus I'd not compare Warsaw to Alabama. I'd compare it to NYC or LA. The outlaying areas I'd compare to red states. Warsaw is the best of Poland gay wise, and it is harsh. The rest of the place, well, it is what it is.
But the point I am making is not that America is wonderful, it is that there is more to life than having a suupermarket, and the FACT is that gay people leave Poland for America and other places in huge numbers. This year and every year. Maybe they are looking for better supermarkets, but I think they define quality of life in a more complex way than you do.
You are saying the trend is to go there, it is better, they have a Tesco. I am saying, maybe for you. But for others, not so much. But hey, for you white straight folks, I'm sure the Tesco makes it just like London!

[izquierdista]

46. This is far afield from the OP about 'Sicko!'

But I will answer some of your misconceptions. Warsaw is NOT the best of Poland gay wise, that would be Krakow, a tolerant world culture city. Warsaw is a conservative, big business city, on a par for gay folk as Charlotte or Nashville -- it's there, but far underground.

My point about "quality of life" was about the basics: public transport, health care, basic housing, basic consumer goods. They are all there, and getting better. I can't say that about what I've seen in America (except the ever present consumer goods). Maybe I should have made my point using the Czech Republic. They were at a similar disadvantage as Poland at the end of the Communist years, and now their economy is much better off and the quality of life is catching up with western Europe quickly. And you wouldn't have been able to open your mouth and complain that Prague isn't a nice place for gay folks, since it's a magnet for them.

[LibDemAlways]

16. I particularly enjoyed the scene in which Moore

searches for the cashier in the British hospital, and it turns out that person's primary job is to give patients cabfare home.

I hate how Michael Moore is vilified by the American corporate whores and repukes in general. He performs a valuable public service and his films deserve to be seen.

[eridani]

19. Our major problem in selling universal health care is that most people will never get expensively

--sick. 5% of the population is responsible for 50% of health care costs, and 15% is responsible for 85% of the costs. The relatively healthy majority therefore don't know jackshit about how good their insurance really is, and they have a lot of other things to worry about. SiCKO brings home the fact that disactrous health care expenses COULD happen to anyone (even if they think they are insured), even though they probably won't. It's like that with house fires--we don't stick the entire bill of supporting fire departments only with those few who are unlucky enough to have fires. Therefore health care (NOT insurance) should be a public good like fire, police, roads etc.

[Lorien]

21. Well, since 44% of all women will develop cancer in their lifetimes alone

I think that a large percentage of people will become expensively sick at some point of their lives.

[eridani]

24. Statistically, despite that fact, seniors (though the most expensive demographic)

--still show 15% of that demographic accounting for 85% of the costs. Base numbers are of course much higher.

[diane in sf]

23. We need to shift the tax burden back to the upper 5%, it would remove many people's objections

to paying for universal single payer.

[opihimoimoi]

20. This SHAMEFUL CONDUCT BY OUR LEADERS...it must be attended to asap

:kick:

[Raster]

22. Healthcare insurance companies = parasites.

Any questions?:kick:We Can Do Better!

[Kansas Wyatt]

35. Bingo!

Insurance companies will always suck all the life out of you, because they are all about making more money, not preserving life.

[Raster]

44. Healthcare insurance companies bring NOTHING to the table.

They were created as a way for rich men to profit off of medical transactions. NOTHING should come between a patient and a healthcare provider. Certainly not a parasitical, paper shuffling entity that exists purely to generate profit for corporate shareholders. We could bring IMMEDIATE, PROFOUND and POSITIVE CHANGE by adopting a single-payer healthcare model.

Wake Up America!:kick:We Can Do Better!

[DemReadingDU]

27. We saw Sicko when if first came out. Very good movie

If the people in Washington DC, would take the money being thrown at the bankster bailouts, and use that money to provide healthcare, jobs, food for the millions of unemployed, homeless, hungry, we would be a better nation.

But no, the money has to be used to maintain the status quo of the wealthy.

[geiger]

28. I watched this by accident the other night

I avoided seeing it when it first come out, because I didn't want to get depressed. It's more disturbing than depressing. To me, the people who want to believe that a so-called socialist system would doom quality of care, they are just going to believe that no matter what. Every time the term health care comes up with my mothers, she starts ranting against the Canadians. It's insanity, and now I'm glad I finally saw the movie.

[wolfgangmo]

32. Pardon me, but...

... fuck your mom. She is clueless and allowing her to remain so does her a disservice. If she is determined to be an ignorant ass at least let her know that idiocy is not allowed around you.

Allowing stupidity to rein close to home has allowed it free reign in the greater population.

[Enthusiast]

34. No, her mother is victim of

a massive propaganda effort by the insurance and pharmaceutical industries. You can find someone in every group that will rant about the horrors of the Canadian healthcare system. Listen to a bit of Reich Wing radio. This misunderstanding of "socialized healthcare" is very widespread.

[Kansas Wyatt]

38. That is YOUR cue to...

Question your mother about the alleged "information" she has for basing her position. Demand the facts about what she says, not what some pedophile dope addict parrots over the radio. If she was so sure of her position, then ask her why the two of you cannot sit down and watch 'Sicko' together, where she can point out exactly where Michael Moore is lying in it, if she is so right.

Counter their alleged 'horror stories' with a comparison to the multiplied real horror stories in the best medical system in the world, the USA. How insurance companies demand what doctors people see, what treatment they can get, etc. etc.

You may also want to point out where the United States ranks on 'free press' in the world, and who decides what news is reported to Americans.

[geiger]

37. I have given up responsiblity for her, as the family disowned me after not agreeing to not vote for

Obama.

And, anyways, when my father was alive, I wouldn't let him be alone with them because of the hatred and racism that spewed from his mouth like poison.

Sometimes you can only do so much. These people are willfully ignorant.

And by the way, I don't think you should be judging me. I understand by your comments that you care, but you don't have the whole picture.

[Canuckistanian]

31. What ever happened to those "spontaneous health care activists"?

You know, the ones that formed right after the movie came out. Some were even started in the lobbies of movie theaters right after seeing "Sicko"

Did nothing ever happen? Did everyone just go back to sleep again?

[wolfgangmo]

33. In Minnesota

Some of us got busy and got a licensing law passed for Naturopathic Doctors. It was hard work and heavily opposed by the religious right and diploma mills that benefit when licensing laws have a loophole in them.

I would like to see universal health care. My reps know this without doubt and we have organized a group of similar minded people to make phone calls every time we need to put pressure on a politician. Phone calls and letters work. Emails, not so much.

[mmonk]

42. Yes to everything you said.

[stuntcat]

43. I gave copies of it to my family for gifts last Christmas

It's fricking IDIOTIC how my government doesn't realize that EVERYONE's HEALTH is an issue of National Security.

[Cleita]

47. This is why private insurance can't be a part of any meaningful national

health plan. It will doom it to failure and the corporate health industry will just say, we told you so.