British and French nuclear submarines loaded with missiles collide underwater

[seemslikeadream]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1146124/British-French-submarines-packed-nuclear-missiles-crash-underwater.html

British and French submarines armed with ballistic missiles threatened a nuclear disaster after colliding in the Atlantic, it emerged last night.
The crash is believed to have occurred after state-of-the-art technology fitted in both vessels, which is designed to detect other submarines, apparently failed completely.
Each boat is a key part of their respective countries' nuclear deterrent, ready to unleash hugely destructive weapons at a moment’s notice.
While both countries claim that security was not comprised during the collision, wide-scale enquiries are currently underway on both sides of the Channel.



http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5h1UAD_qE2V5RKl4JOOVJCJHKd9Wg

British, French nuclear subs crash in Atlantic

LONDON (AFP) — A British and a French submarine, both of them nuclear-powered and carrying nuclear weapons, collided in the Atlantic Ocean earlier this month, the Sun newspaper reported on Monday.

The tabloid said HMS Vanguard and France's Le Triomphant were both damaged in the incident, but there were no reports of damage to the nuclear sections of either vessel. The British sub has now been towed to Faslane in Scotland for repair.

Both vessels -- between them carrying about 250 sailors -- were reportedly submerged and on separate missions when they crashed on February 3 or 4.

The Ministry of Defence refuses to comment on submarine operations but a spokesman said: "We can confirm that the UK?s deterrent capability has remained unaffected at all times and there has been no compromise to nuclear safety."

HMS Vanguard, launched in 1992, is a Vanguard class SSBN (Ship Submersible Ballistic Nuclear) vessel, one of four such submarines tasked with maintaining the country's independent nuclear deterrent. The vessel has 16 missile tubes capable of firing the Trident II D5 missile. Each missile can deliver up to 12 warheads.

Triomphant, launched in 1994, is one of four Triomphant Class submarines serving with the French Navy. It carries 16 M51 SLBM missiles and forms part of France's nuclear deterrent force.


http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/nuclear-subs-crashed-in-atlantic-report-20090216-88s5.html
Nuclear subs crashed in Atlantic: reportFebruary 16, 2009 - 1:54PM
A British and a French submarine, both of them nuclear-powered and carrying nuclear weapons, collided in the Atlantic Ocean earlier this month, the Sun newspaper reported on Monday.

The British tabloid said HMS Vanguard and France's Le Triomphant were both damaged in the incident, but there were no reports of damage to the nuclear parts.

The British sub has now been towed to Faslane in Scotland for repair.

Both vessels - between them carrying about 250 sailors - were reportedly submerged and on separate missions when they crashed on February 3 or 4.

The UK Ministry of Defence refuses to comment on submarine operations but a spokesman said: "We can confirm that the UK's deterrent capability has remained unaffected at all times and there has been no compromise to nuclear safety."

HMS Vanguard is one of four nuclear submarines operated by the British military as part of its Trident system, and one is always on deterrent patrol.

Each vessel is 150 metres long and 13 metres in diameter, and can carry up to 48 nuclear warheads on a maximum of 16 missiles.

[Jim Sagle]

1. Laurel and Hardy Nuke the Atlantic

A fine mess, indeed.

[RJ Connors]

2. Of course the thing I wonder is

why are they on patrol with live nukes?

[rockymountaindem]

3. So that if either France or Britain suffer a nuclear attack, the submarines will still be there to

retaliate. It's called "second-strike" capability.

[RJ Connors]

4. Yeah I get that part

It's just odd that they were both loaded to the gills with nukes. My time as a squid tells me there's some more to this story.

[seemslikeadream]

5. loaded to the gills with nukes.

AND in the very same spot on the planet at the very same time.


How many of these subs are hanging around in the ocean anyway. was there some kind of traffic jam?

[machI]

41. 'very same spot on the planet at the very same time' probably more common than one would think

It is called a "Pre-surveyed launch position" which means all the complex missile trajectories have been calculated for this launch position in advance. This includes gravitational anomalies in the Earth's density and variation in the flux density of the Earth's magnetic field have been included in the calculations.

Typically it would be a spot where the undersea currents are steady and predictable over extended periods of time.

It must be a good spot for two boomers to be hanging out there at the same time.

[muriel_volestrangler]

15. "loaded to the gills" is your own term, based on nothing in any of the articles

No, it's not odd that these submarines go out with nuclear missiles on board - it's the standard practice of both nations to have at least one armed sub on patrol at all times.

The only thing that's odd is that they collided.

[RJ Connors]

27. I read a different article that phrased it a bit differently

"The Royal Navy’s HMS Vanguard and the French Navy’s Le Triomphant are both nuclear powered and were carrying nuke missiles."

"A senior Navy source said: “The potential consequences are unthinkable. It’s very unlikely there would have been a nuclear explosion."

"Vanguard is one of Britain’s four V-Class subs forming our Trident nuclear deterrent. Each is armed with 16 ballistic missiles."

Source: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2240543.ece

As for submarines colliding that really is not odd, it happens once in a while along with fishing boats being hit when surfacing. Not all the time, but every few years. As for it not being odd they were both armed with nukes, I maintain, there is more to the story here.

[dysfunctional press]

6. so far so good...

spectre has been waiting far too long...

[Blue_Tires]

31. the pieces are being set up on the chessboard...

[elleng]

7. Why did I GIGGLE

when I saw this headline????

[seemslikeadream]

8. both been severely damaged

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/defence/4634582/British-and-French-nuclear-submarines-collide-in-Atlantic.html


Both are fitted with state-of-the-art technology aimed at detecting other submarines, but it apparently failed completely.

Although both France and Britain insist that security was not compromised during the collision and there was no danger of a nuclear incident, inquiries are now under way in both countries.

Each boat is a key part of their respective county's nuclear deterrent, ready to unleash their destructive weapons at a moment's notice.

French Navy sources confirm that Le Triomphant, one of four strategic nuclear submarines of the so-called "Force de Frappe", was returning from a 70 day tour of duty when the incident occurred.

It happened in heavy seas, and in the middle of the night between February 3 and 4, and left Le Triomphant's sonar dome all but destroyed.

The sonar dome should have detected the Vanguard but Le Triomphant's crew of 101 claimed to have "neither saw nor heard anything".

The French tried to play down the collision, with a Navy spokesman saying: "The collision did not result in injuries among the crew and did not jeopardise nuclear security at any moment."

The Ministry of Defence would not even confirm it had taken place. A spokesman said: "It is MoD policy not to comment on submarine operational matters, but we can confirm that the UK's deterrent capability has remained unaffected at all times and there has been no compromise to nuclear safety."

[GI_Dunno]

9. 99 red balloons

Ha! nothing like 99 red balloons because 2 ally countries accident!

If only they would have started nuking each other! The old French vs English!

and their nato allies!

And then, after they had destroyed themselves the rest of the world could live in real PEACE!

Love with Love,
doobie doo

[Maru Kitteh]

10. I just love cheese, particularly mozzeralla.

With roasted red peppers and sliced portabellas.

YUM. YUM.

[hayu_lol]

12. The late Benny Hill would have had...

a ball with this news item.

[Tesha]

23. "'Boom' goes London, 'boom' Paris, more room for you and more room for me!"

Randy Newman, "Political Science"

[blogslut]

11. While such a crash might release toxins into the water

It's not like the nukes go boom due to impact.

[Karenina]

13. Good thing, eh?

;-)

[blogslut]

14. extremely

:hi:

[Mr. Hyde]

16. that much radioactive waste dispersed into a delicate ecosystem like the ocean could be as bad

or worse than an explosion.

[blogslut]

17. I do not disagree

I'm just trying to clarify to others that nukes don't explode on impact.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

42. Uh...

I'm pretty sure that an explosion would end up releasing all of the radioactive waste that a spill would, plus more.

[Greyhound]

18. I love how offensive weapons platforms are referred to as "nuclear deterrents". n/t

:kick: & R

[Cid_B]

19. Mutuallly Assured Destruction...

It is what it is...

[Greyhound]

21. Spinning and spinning until words have lost all meaning.

Submarines are inherently offensive in nature, surprise attack is their only purpose, yet these strictly offensive platforms, armed with strictly offensive weapons are always referred to as deterrents.

It seems that not only was George Orwell a prophet, he is used as the chief architect as well.

[Cid_B]

22. If a weapon system...

.. keeps Nuclear Power X from letting loose because Nuclear Power Y has the ability to wipe him out then that is a deterrent. The knowledge that letting some nukes fly will result in equal or greater devastation for his side keeps X's finger off the button.

Sorry if you don't like it and wish they would all just poof and disappear but they won't.

[Greyhound]

25. I understand perfectly well the concept of MAD, but again, submarine based

systems are first strike weapons platforms designed specifically to advance, undetected, to such close range that the enemy cannot retaliate.

MAD is a deterrent, submarine based platforms exist to circumvent the concept, making the fantasy of "winning a nuclear war" plausible to those that do not think too clearly. Now before you go all "patriotic" on me, know that my family is one of the longest serving and most highly decorated in the history of the USN (and the British before). In fact, more than a couple of my relatives not only served on these boats, but helped to create the very strategy we are discussing.

All of which is beside the point, which remains that the language has been twisted to convince the malleable that up is down and wrong is right.

[muriel_volestrangler]

26. No, they are systems designed to survive a first strike by the other side

because they are 'somewhere in the ocean', and so cannot be targeted by a strike on the country that owns them. Submarines are the best way of implementing MAD. I'm not convinced we need them any more, but they made sense in the Cold War.

[shadowknows69]

29. I forget the author but there was a great nuclear war themed book called "The last ship"

Very "On the Beach" like plot with the only survivors of a nuclear war being a US destroyer and a soviet sub. Inevitably they meet and must decide to work together for the survival of humanity. Intrigue ensues.

[Greyhound]

36. I think I've seen it. B & W looks like early 60s? n/t

[shadowknows69]

37. "On the Beach" was a b+w movie but the "The last ship" came out in the 90's i think.

or perhaps earlier but that's when I read it.

[Greyhound]

38. D'oh! Says "author", "book", and "read" right in the subject!

:blush:

[zagging]

20. For sale: French Nuke. Never fired, only dropped once.

Old joke, but apropos.

[barbtries]

24. this illustrates the idiocy

of having nuclear bombs rolling around the world imo. what kind of disaster might this have been? how could such a thing happen? jeez!

[shadowknows69]

28. WTF the oceans covers two thirds of the frakking planet

Can't two big tin fish keep from hitting each other in it?

[seemslikeadream]

30. yea

:hi:

[seemslikeadream]

32. Nuclear submarines collision a 'very serious incident'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/feb/16/nuclear-submarines-collision-investigation

Nuclear submarines collision a 'very serious incident'

However much the Ministry of Defence was trying to play it down – or, indeed, avoid saying anything until news of it was leaked to the press – the significance of the collision between British and French nuclear missile submarines in the middle of the Atlantic must not be underestimated, say independent analysts.

"Friendly submarines should not bump into each other. Unquestionably, it is a very serious incident," said Commodore Stephen Saunders, a former senior Royal Navy officer, now editor of Jane's Fighting Ships.

Submarines, especially those carrying ballistic missiles with nuclear warheads, are not supposed to be heard. Equipped with modern passive sonar, they should not be detected. However, the sonar and radar are supposed not only to try to find out what other submarines are about but also to avoid collisions.

Large submarines such as Le Triomphant and HMS Vanguard are not very manoeuvrable, and analysts described the accident as extremely bad luck.

Yet the incident raises other questions that the inquiry being conducted by the French and British navies will also have to answer. Nato navies work together to "deconflict", as Saunders put it, to ensure their boats, even those on sensitive, secretive missions are not in the same area at the same time.

[Blue_Tires]

33. how could that be? billion-dollar sonar equipment on BOTH subs failed?

[machI]

43. Ballistic missile submarines rarely use active sonar while on patrol

Active sonar would act as a beacon for any listening fast attack submarines.

Boomers strictly use passive sonar while on patrol. Since they are constructed to be very quite, they were probably not even aware the other one was there until just before the collision.

[MindPilot]

34. Every sailor knows that life aboard ship

includes a lot of sleep deprivation, stress, hard physical labor, frustration and boredom. Sometimes you don't get to eat or wash regularly; I'm surprised there are not more "incidents" like this.

[seemslikeadream]

35. French sub unaware it rammed Royal Navy vessel in mid-Atlantic nuclear crash

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5746690.ece

A French submarine was unaware it had rammed and damaged a British nuclear sub in a mid-Atlantic collision until it was informed by the Royal Navy.

HMS Vanguard and the French submarine Le Triomphant were both carrying nuclear ballistic warheads when they crashed in the Atlantic earlier this month.

Both navies said today that the collision had been unavoidable because the vessels were “running silently” to avoid detection by sonar.

Official inquiries have started in Britain and France into the incident which has raised concerns about the sharing of information between the allied navies.

[reggie the dog]

39. 2 boats that sonar cannot detect

not bad, except in the rare case that they end up in the same place at the same time.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

40. Damn, I don't know how to respond to this

Do I make fun of the French or do I hate on the Brits? I enjoy doing both so much.