Colleges ban illegal immigrants

[The Straight Story]

Colleges ban illegal immigrants

Opponents: Students shouldn't be punished under law

MYRTLE BEACH — Dayana Rodrigues carries a bucket of cleaning solutions and a vacuum with her to work. She used to clean houses to pay for college. Now, she is a career maid who speaks three languages.

Rodrigues, 20, graduated in the top 5 percent of her high school class in 2007 and completed nursing prerequisites at Horry-Georgetown Technical College — all As and one B.

In January, the college refused to re-enroll the returning student because she is an undocumented immigrant. "You know it's not personal," she said. "But it is."

The South Carolina Illegal Immigration Reform Act became law in June and, among other measures, banned illegal immigrants from attending colleges and universities that receive state money.

Supporters of the ban feel strongly that taxpayers' money should not fund a school that is educating lawbreakers. They also worry that illegal immigrants could take up spots in colleges that might otherwise go to legal residents.

Opponents said it's unfair to punish children for their parents' crimes.

http://www.charleston.net/news/2009/feb/15/colleges_ban_illegal_immigrants71793/

[snappyturtle]

1. That's a really tough call.

:popcorn:

[The Straight Story]

2. Maybe they should tax smokers to pay for college for illegal immigrants

:rofl:

[Greyhound]

20. You are an evil man.

:rofl:

[theoldman]

3. If she can pay the tuition she should be allowed to enroll.

I don't care if a convicted criminal enrolls, much less an un-convicted criminal.

[FreakinDJ]

5. Like "Flight School"

lets get a little perspective here. The operative word in that phrase is "Illegal"

[OhioChick]

13. That it is. n/t

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BlooInBloo]

ur doin it wrong...

[FreakinDJ]

60. Your giving Unions a Bad name with that garbage

No Union in America can legally organise Illegal Aliens - they don't have the "Right to Work" - PERIOD

[NashVegas]

4. It Sucks But

I don't think we can bitch about Washington and Wall St. corruption and turn a blind eye on the campus.

Or do you really believe there's no profit involved?

[Brooklyns_Finest]

6. I got no problem with it

The law is the law. If they want to go college at the expense of the state, then they can work on becoming legal residents.

[earth mom]

22. Yep-put those study hours into doing the legwork it takes to be a legal resident. nt

[pampango]

7. We either allow her to attend college or she will have to clean houses her whole life.

She's not going anywhere. We can either upgrade the knowledge and capabilities of the people that live in our country or we can tell them "Your fate in life is determined. It's nice that you want to improve your life, but it ain't going to happen."

Apparently the school district there is contemplating whether the law applies to high school students, as well. "Whether the ban will become an issue for high school students remains to be seen, a district spokesman said."

I hadn't realized that "(a)t least nine states, mainly clustered on the West Coast, have moved in the opposite direction and allow in-state tuition to illegal immigrants." It looks like South Carolina is going one way and the states in the West are going in the other.

[destinationunknown]

62. Your attitude would be mine 100% if it weren't for one thing:

more keep coming in. I was just reading about an undocumented man who killed two people (one was his brother), got deported, snuck in again, got deported, snuck in a third time and killed someone else (maybe more than one person) in ANOTHER DUI. So apparently it's very easy to get in and in certain areas, classrooms are overcrowded because you cannot ask the status of children. I think that affects the education of legal residents, don't you?

A funny side story on that last point: I was reading how this elementary school close to the border (some SW state) was so tired of undocumented students registering that it clamped down somehow (maybe proof of status). Guess who was pressuring the schoolboard? MEXICAN-AMERICAN PARENTS! They realized how much it was affected their kids' school quality! When it affects you, that's when you rise up!

[proud2BlibKansan]

123. That's complete bullshit about an elementary school refusing kids

There is no citizenship requirement for students to enroll in a public school.

[Vanje]

126. ,,,,and, He's OUTTA HEEERE!

Good job Mods and Admins.

[donco6]

171. One down . . . n/t

[Lost in CT]

105. Or she could go back to her home country and apply to enter the workforce legally.

I didn't realize the South Carolina unemployment rate was zero percent.

I'm sure there are Americans in danger of losing their homes that could do her job.

[JVS]

141. She doesn't even need to apply to enter the workforce. She can go home,...

apply to the school, bring the money that she has saved up with her, show that she can support her self financially, which means she can have a student visa (no work allowed), but still probably do some work on the side without legal trouble.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

8. There's a solution

The kid just has to get herself an immigration lawyer and see what she has to do to become documented. Her comment, which was something like "GIve me the papers and I'll sign them" has a certain cavalier quality to them that she really is in no position to use to her advantage.

She has things to do before she can continue on, but there are roads to her ambition. What's the good of her getting an education when she doesn't qualify to get a license to practice that profession?

So, while the law stinks, it will pass judicial muster, I think, primarily because it doesn't do anything except codify what makes sense - that to qualify for certain privileges here (the tuition cost, for instance), you have to go through certain procedures to get your documentation in order.

While that might not be what some - especially kids - want to hear, you still have to take Drivers' Ed in most jurisdictions before you can apply for a license. This is roughly the same.

Fortunately, it's not hopeless.

[destinationunknown]

9. This just happened to me a couple of hours ago on campus. Check it out:

So I am a mature graduate of this commuter university. I plan to go for my MA in the fall, but I digress...

Anyway, I came here today to participate in a study done by a psychologist regarding test-taking. They were paying us to take a test and give our impressions. So before the festivities began, the test giver informed us that we needed to provide a SSN in order to proceed. She said that this had been a PROBLEM FOR OTHER PEOPLE SO FAR!!!!

I have heard that there are hundreds of undocumented students at this university. It blows my mind that there are so many; it shows that the figure of 11 million is probably a gross underestimate. I am sorry if these kids were mixed up in this whole thing by their parents but it is very unfair to simply overlook Americans who want to go to college and have their slots taken by others! This is especially true for a school like mine with many working class students! And do not underestimate the networks of immigrants, both legal and illegal. My father married a woman from a developing country and she seemed to know our system better than I ever would!

[WolverineDG]

15. So would your solution be to create a permanent uneducated underclass?

:shrug:

Cuz that's what you're going to get.

dg

[Lance_Boyle]

19. no, the solution is to deport the illegals. n/t

[WolverineDG]

21. Good luck with that!

:rofl:

Not gonna happen anytime soon.

dg

[destinationunknown]

30. Yes, well, you are from TX, so I imagine this is a particularly messy issue for you...

The states in the SW should revert back to their original owner, IMO. But the other states should not have to allow floods of undocumented workers from all over the globe.

[WolverineDG]

33. Um, so what part of the US was originally owned by white people?

:think:

dg

[destinationunknown]

36. Um...that's what I was saying...

:eyes:

I believe that the states in the SW (including TX, unless that is not considered as such) should belong to Mexico.

[WolverineDG]

39. And who should get your state?

Unless of course, you think white people are the "original owners," in which case, read a history book sometime.


dg

[destinationunknown]

44. I can't go back in a time machine, so I am not interested in sorting out all that mess...

And as for White people, I am of mixed heritage. And yes, some of it is indigenous!:applause:

[WolverineDG]

50. Of course not

that would be too inconvenient for you. Much better to look down on us brown-skinned folk...lemme guess, your "indigenous" ancestor was a "Cherokee princess." :rofl:

dg

[destinationunknown]

57. I wasn't even talking about the 50 states, but keep thinking you have the moral

authority somehow.

(Oh, and my skin is nice and brown, thank you very much. We Hispanics are kind of wacky that way:rofl: )

[kiva]

42. Or we could go back a couple more decades

and give Mexico back to Spain.:eyes:

[destinationunknown]

Why don't we go back and give Mexico

back to Siberia?:rofl:

[WolverineDG]

53. Or the entire US back to the Native Americans nt

[Vanje]

120. I guess my state of Idaho reverts to the NezPierce Nation

and the Shoshone, and Paiute

[WritingIsMyReligion]

203. There was this guy called Hernan Cortes...you might want to check him out.

The idea that the modern concept of Mexico is the rightful "owner" of the southwest is laughably dumb.

[destinationunknown]

23. No. My chief complaint is for funds related to scholarships, grants, and loans to be directed

towards legal citizens FIRST. If there's extra, then maybe for the others. I don't have as big a beef when it comes to undocumented parents and/or students PAYING THEIR OWN WAY at a college. Mine is not really that selective, so most get in. There are probably always slots, but at least give priority to legal residents, put the others on a list and then they could get next dibs. But to just allow it to be as easy as pie is what I object to.

[WolverineDG]

26. Hey guess what?

THEY ARE!!!! At least student loans & grants; some scholarships are private & they can write their own rules, so you don't get to dictate who gets what, sorry about that.

Jeezus. Read the OP--this girl WAS paying her way. :eyes:

dg

[destinationunknown]

29. I understand that. But the question of grants comes up all the time...There may even

be states which are allowing undocumented students to receive them. Just my two cents.

[WolverineDG]

31. got proof to back that up?

perhaps some of those grants are private grants & the donors of those can write their own rules. You want to dictate who gets the money for those too?

dg

[destinationunknown]

35. First of all, calm down...You sound very riled...My "proof" was walking the halls of my community

college several years ago. I noticed a flyer outside the financial aid office and picked it up:

"Don't have a Social Security Number? No Visa? You may still qualify for STATE GRANTS..."

No, I don't know for sure. No, I don't know if it is in some states over others...I said IF they exist, then that is what I object to. Giving them first dibs over someone born here legally, that is. Private funds, private matters, although I have noticed that at a small Catholic university in a nearby town (where I wished to attend), they had lots of foreign students. I wondered how a school with an annual tuition of around $27,000 could manage to recruit so many foreigners? Do they pay that amount? I would be required to do so!

[WolverineDG]

47. OMG! Someone actually posting information

informing undocumented students of something they are LEGALLY ENTITLED TO! OMG OMG OMG.

And, funny thing, I DO get riled up when someone posts ignorant, racist bullshit on DU like your comment about the SW being given back to its "original owners."

dg

[destinationunknown]

48. Whoa...racist? Against whom? Whites?

I say about TX, etc. as a compromise because I do believe that, in discussing legal immigrants issues, it's hard to do so whilst neglecting to mention the theft of Mexican land. If that's racist, then I don't know WTF.

[WolverineDG]

52. But figuring out who stole Native American land is "too complicated" for you

:eyes:

dg

[destinationunknown]

56. Let me spell out my ideal solution to this whole immigration mess:

SW states go back to Mexico because THE WHITE MAN STOLE IT! Yes, I follow the fact that the other land was stolen, also, but some of those states go back hundreds of years. Mexico is more recent. That is all. But if you think I'm a dumb fuck, then...:fistbump:

[MellowDem]

186. What the hell???

Let me tell you, those recently arrived Mexican illegals DO NOT want the Southwest to go back to Mexico, to say nothing of the American majority living there. You might as well throw the SW into a toilet, because that's what it will become once Mexico's incompetent and corrupt government takes over. By the way, Mexico holds no more right to that land then the US did. After all, it was filled with indigenous people, not Mexicans. The Americans just got their first and won the war, as is often the case of history. It's not recent. Mexico's claim to the territoy was based on Spanish imperialistic conquests. Oh yeah, that's a great and noble claim! This "SW was stolen from us" bullshit is the height of hypocritacal ignorance. It makes me puke every time I hear it.

I've worked with illegals, and while they love their culture, they don't like their government, they think their incompetent asses, and they are.

[Hangingon]

193. The way I heard it...

the Texicans - hispanic and anglo - had a revolution and formred a Republic. So, if Texas goes back to Mexico (didn't they also steal the land from Spain? Who of course stole it from the natives.) then the 13 colonies should go back to England.

[tishaLA]

113. do you know how many letters of rec I have written for

my undocumented students to get the FEW scholarships available to them? And how competitive it is? Even in a state like CA, in a city like LA, the availability of funds for AB-540 students is almost nil. And it's disgusting to see these students, many of whom work harder than I can imagine to get a degree, forced to take quarters/semesters off from college so they can work 60 hrs/wk to earn enough money to cover tuition.

[Control-Z]

149. Not to argue your point

but many natural born students do the same.

'forced to take quarters/semesters off from college so they can work 60 hrs/wk to earn enough money to cover tuition.'

My daughter has been lucky enough (and valuable enough) to get help from her employer with tuition, but only after doing it on her own for a few years. Unfortunately, because of the economy, they may not be able to help her any longer.

[lumberjack_jeff]

64. I thought they were "doing jobs americans won't do"?

People who circumvent legal immigration channels should not be here. Further, even legal immigration channels bring in more people than our economy can support.

They shouldn't be permanent, because they shouldn't be here at all.

[WolverineDG]

114. and if you were brought here as a baby? nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

190. People born here are citizens. Those who were born elsewhere are not.

Then again, those who were born here are not entitled by birthright to the benefits of citizenship in some other country of their choosing.

[EFerrari]

119. What is the matter with you people? Do you think these kids would be here

if our government hadn't been f#cking with their democracies for the last two hundred years? Do you think they just come here to eat Burger King and be disrespected? Do you think they WANT to leave their homes? :wtf:

We shouldn't be THERE at all, how about that? How about, your tax dollars have made sure these folks have to leave their decimated homes, villages and towns so Exxon and Chiquita can line their pockets?

How about, in the last presidential election in Mexico, BushCo helped steal it from the reformer? Where was your whining THEN?

Legal, my @ss. El Salvador is fixing to elect a progressive. If US corporate interests help steal that, I don't want to see you whining when those people come north because your government f#cked them, again.

[lumberjack_jeff]

189. You know better.

I hate the destructive transnational corporate influence in every country, but I've already told you that.

If Latin American countries have the option of sending their citizens to work in, get educated in, get health care in and send money home from the US, they'd be stupid to not take advantage of it.

This economy can't support everyone. When our economy crashes, we should all be so lucky to have somewhere to go back home to.

[cobalt1999]

10. So she is here illegally, not paying any taxes, but wants to use taxpayer funded institutions?

Sorry, I agree with the law.

[FreakinDJ]

11. EXACTLY - Colleges are Funded with Tax Payer Dollars

and if your here illegally thanks to Federal Law (ie: I9 forms) you are going to be working "Under the Table" NOT paying taxes.

So why should they benifit from the taxes paid by those here legally when they are cheating the tax code to begin with

[CatholicEdHead]

14. Illegals do pay taxes

As long as she can pay for tuition, let her attend classes to get ahead

[FreakinDJ]

37. Without an I-9 no way she is NOT paying taxes

go to any Home Depot any morning and there are 100s of illegals wanting to work "Under the Table"

[CatholicEdHead]

51. Sales tax, tax on housing (via rent), gas tax, payroll taxes

Many immigrants pay taxes and do not see the benefits.

[FreakinDJ]

61. That is not TRUE

and us Catholics should not tell Lies

[EFerrari]

66. Jim Robinson, is that you? You can't throw a rock in Rocklin

without hitting hardworking people who pay taxes up the wazzoo without being documented. They're paying your Social Security. They're giving you a free ride, buddy. Better sit back and enjoy it.

[FreakinDJ]

72. Not Jim - but why is CA broke

Why do every man woman and child in CA pay an extra 20% for Healthcare Cost

That is the TRUE Cost of Illegal Aliens Working in California

[EFerrari]

74. Undocumented workers ADD to the economy, they don't take from it.

The whole system is set up so they have to pay in and can't take out.

CA's problem is not these people which have kept us rolling for quite a while. It's our property tax structure and the energy industry. We still have a bad case of Enron.

Fyi, the stream of workers is now in the other direction. They're leaving because there are no jobs. And our economy will get worse, not better, because of that.

[donco6]

77. California is broke because of illegals?

Wow again. I thought it was this:

The state of California is reeling not only from fall in investments made in the equity markets, but also from declines in tax revenues and capital gains as a result of the downturn in the business and property markets, not to mention an inability to tap the debt markets for funding.

That's what the governor says, anyway. What do you have to support your theory? And no fair quoting from Hannity.

[Vanje]

124. California is broke because of illegals?

and all along , I thought it was because of the gays.


and the jews... of course.

[roody]

91. I suggest that farmworkers be paid a living wage

and we could pay the true cost of food production.

[CatholicEdHead]

68. Yes it is, they use a generic, group ID for their SSN

they file taxes but are unable to get refunds. The IRS knows this and that is why this number exists. They also pay those same taxes like the rest of us. Like I said, they pay in but are not able to get anything back.

[FreakinDJ]

73. And what of the people who lost the Social Security Benifits

because Dozens if not 100s of Illegal Aliens falsly used their SSI number?

Illegal Aliens = Net Loss on Taxes

Prove otherwise or Shut Up

[donco6]

78. Like who?

Name one.

[CatholicEdHead]

88. The ones who lost (never had it) it are the undocumented workers

They pay in via this ID number and are unable to get it back. What they pay in goes to the SS program so those who are legally able to get benefits, get it.

Are there some cases of SSN fraud out there? Sure there is, is it a meaningful number? Doubtful.

[roody]

93. If a number was used falsely, the money was taken out

of the paycheck and the undocumented worker will never see it.

[EFerrari]

115. There are hundreds of articles. All you had to do was use your Google:

“And is their presence here, their contribution to the economy, a net gain that ripples through to the benefit of all the rest of us in this country,” asked Specter.

http://mensnewsdaily.com/2006/07/11/us-senate-examines-economics-of-immigration/

Seriously, do that search so you can stop embarrassing yourself.

[donco6]

69. Of course it's true.

And, the fact is, illegals paying into Social Security with fake IDs - all the while knowing they'll never be able to claim any of the benefits - results in a significant offset on the underfunding of the program.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html

[FreakinDJ]

75. Doesn't mean they are entitled to Free College Education

If they Cheat on Immigration
If they CHEAT on Taxes
If they CHEAT on SS numbers

Don't you think they CHEAT on Financial Aid

Get a Clue

[donco6]

81. Who said anything about free?

The woman in the op was paying tuition.

[FreakinDJ]

96. "Reduced Fee Tuition"

= Free Ride

[donco6]

100. You mean in-state tuition, right?

And she was an in-state resident.

[Thothmes]

127. Yes the do. They see the same benefit that I do

These taxes pay for municipal water supplies, municipal sewer services, trash removal,police protection, fire protection, EMS services, public schools, highways, streets, parks, the list is long. Illegal immigrants living in apartments use water, sewer, trash services, they can rely on fire and police protection if needed, their children can attend public schools. The use the highways and streets. The EMTs will come if called. The sales taxes, property taxes, gas taxes and payroll taxes are used to pay for these services.

[WolverineDG]

16. Illegals are exempt from sales, gas, & property taxes?

Wow, I should have thought of that....

:eyes:

If she has the money to pay for tuition like everyone else, why the hell can't she go to school?

dg

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WolverineDG]

58. So she shouldn't get an education (which she is paying for)

so when she does become legal she will pay taxes? Good lord.

dg

[FreakinDJ]

59. Which MY TAXES pay for - ABSOLUTELY NOT

Until they pay their Fair Share - 1st by becoming LEGAL and being able to LEGALLY file an I-9 form, until then they get NO FREE HAND OUTS

[EFerrari]

63. What's the matter, Freakin? Did a Mexican steal your, um, job?

You already benefit from the slave wages that keep your prices down. And undocumented workers pay MORE for everything AND they pay taxes they get no benefit from.

Fair share, my granny. Undocumented workers pulling fulltime probably pay more than you do.

[roody]

94. They also pay inflated rents.

[WolverineDG]

70. She was paying tuition

she wasn't asking for a fucking hand out.

wtf is your problem with that?

dg

[EFerrari]

79. In this country, we blame everything on "those people".

Whoever they happen to be at the time, but we never neglect to blame Latinos for anything. Increible.

[WolverineDG]

84. No kidding

did you see the extra helping of racism about giving the SW back to its "original owner" too? :eyes:

dg

[EFerrari]

89. These are the same people that complain that foreign students

who pay 4X the fees "won't speak English". It's like a sickness.

[donco6]

103. It's been a learning experience here.

I never realized someone could truly despise another group of people and still claim to be a Democrat.

Live and learn . . .

[SemiCharmedQuark]

106. Mexican Repatriation.

My grandmother was a U.S. citizen and her parents were legal immigrants. Yet, while my great grandfather was away on business, they deported my great grandmother and all of her children U.S. born children "back" (and I put that in quotes since a U.S. citizen who has never been to Mexico really can't go "back" there) to Mexico. When he came back, his property and his family were gone.

We were just talking about this in class today and two of my classmates agreed that "well, it was the Depression...that's life."

[donco6]

108. That is so NOT effing "life".

How horrible. I've never heard of this. Do you have an article? Where did it happen?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

112. It happened in the 1930s primarilly in California and Texas. Here's an article from USA Today.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-04-04-1930s-deportees-cover_x.htm

[donco6]

117. After reading this thread, and reading that post . . .

. . . all I can say is history does indeed repeat itself.

[donco6]

86. Incredible is right.

Sheesh. This one's gonna blow a gasket.

[EFerrari]

92. It's old behavior in California. I caught a documentary about the gold rush

and Latinos were being run off of their legal claims then.

Sometimes I think the real culture gap is that most Latinos can't believe anyone would be that rude and that wrong foots us. lol

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WolverineDG]

82. And if she lived in state

paid sales tax, gas tax, & other day-to-day taxes, then she probably qualified for "in state" tuition.

dg

[FreakinDJ]

98. You want her to go to school - Adopt Her - make her Legal

Put your money where your mouth is

You want to fix the problem - then you can just adopt her - make her a legal citizen and then I don't care if she goes to Harvard

Until then quit telling people to pay for Law Breakers

[WolverineDG]

118. If the law allows her to claim in-state status

then she's not breaking the law.

dg

[FreakinDJ]

133. She is not supposed to be in the Country much less State

When does Illegal not mean Illegal

Answ: When you are here legally which means you are not an Illegal

Understand Children

[WolverineDG]

134. There's a difference between "residency" & "citizenship"

and if the lower tuition is based on "residency" then she gets the lower tuition.

dg

[FreakinDJ]

136. Hopefully and Legally she gets Deported

[WolverineDG]

144. :shakes head:

Of course you don't give a shit about anyone but yourself. We lose someone who could be a good nurse all because you're having a hissy.

dg

[donco6]

162. Back to the yelling again, I see. n/t

[donco6]

83. Our legal residency in Colorado is just proof of residency.

Just like any other student. Prove you lived here for the past year and you're a resident.

[EFerrari]

90. Do you know what "residency" means?

[FreakinDJ]

95. Look DA my wife is a LEGAL Immigrant

I have been through every last stinking part of this issue FIRST HAND in REAL FUCKING LIFE

My Wife went to school to get the CA Siesmic Standards for her degree in Architecture. YES we had to jump hoops to prove she was here LEGALLY

Just because some one thinks it is OK to jump the process of Legal Immigration doesn't make it legal

we owe them nothing
They Cheated the System
and are Still Cheating the System

Get a Clue

[EFerrari]

97. So, that would be a "no"?

[FreakinDJ]

101. You really Pretty Clueless - right

can we say "Ignorance" children

I know - we'll let all the illegals come to YOUR house to live

Ya - I thought so DA

[EFerrari]

110. Rocklin would go under tomorrow without all those people you hate so much.

In fact, I hear that it isn't doing very well right now with the exodus.

[FreakinDJ]

131. Illegals are a NET LOSS I repeat a NET LOSS

Every legitimate study has confirmed 1 thing that is ABSOLUTELY for sure

Illegals are a NET LOSS for Local City and State Governments

By the way - How do you like paying 20% EXTRA for Hospitalization

[Vanje]

132. Can you cite even one of these "legitimate studies"?

or did you hear about them on the Lars Larson show?
or Micheal Savage?

[FreakinDJ]

135. State of Calif. alone incurred $2.3 billion (cost of Illegals- 1994)

Next you'll be saying the Numbers have been Freeped

Haha

Donald Huddle of Rice University set the benchmark for today's debate with a study that concluded that the legal and illegal immigrants who arrived since 1970 cost the US $42.5 billion in 1992, and $18.1 billion in California. According to Huddle, 7.2 million immigrants arrived legally and illegally in California since 1970, and the state incurred costs of $23 billion to provide them with services--half of the costs were for education and health care, and one-sixth were due to the costs of providing services to US residents displaced by these immigrants.

As with all such studies, Huddle made assumptions about how many illegal aliens there are, their usage of welfare and other public services, the taxes they paid, and their indirect economic impacts. Jeff Passel of the Urban Institute reviewed and revised Huddle's US estimates, and his calculations turned the $42 billion net cost into a $29 billion net benefit.

Most of the $70 billion difference between these studies arises from their estimates of the taxes paid by immigrants--Huddle assumes that post-1970 immigrants paid $20 billion in taxes to all levels of government, and Passel assumes they paid $70 billion. And the major reason for the difference in tax estimates is that Huddle did not include the 15 percent of each worker's earnings that are paid in Social Security taxes, while Passel did--this accounts for over one-third of the $70 billion difference.

In January 1994, Governor Wilson estimated that the state incurred $2.3 billion in unreimbursed costs to provide federally-mandated services to unauthorized immigrants--$1.7 billion for education, $377 million for corrections, and $300 million for health care costs. The corrections and health care cost estimates are based on counts of unauthorized aliens incarcerated and served; the education cost estimate is based on the estimated number of illegal aliens in the state
http://migration.ucdavis.edu/MN/more.php?id=298_0_2_0

Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household.
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

[EFerrari]

139. The Center for Immigration Studies is a right wing propaganda mill

but, thanks for playing!

[Name removed]

146. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

148. You didn't even read that Snopes page, did you?

lol

[Vanje]

150. Nothing more recent than 15 years old?

?

[EFerrari]

140. Rave on!

[donco6]

99. Writing bigger and louder accomplishes nothing.

Particularly when you end it with "get a clue" on every post. :eyes:

[FreakinDJ]

102. I'm still Waiting

[donco6]

104. Waiting for what?

Try me again, I must have missed the question, what with all the extra large fonts and all.

[CatholicEdHead]

109. How are they "cheating the system" if they pay money in and get nothing back?

All the OP's story talks about is paying up front for college tuition to move ahead. Ideally undocumented workers can be made formal citizens if they can prove they are bettering themselves by being here By going to college she will not be a drag on society with a degree. Then she can hopefully get back some of which she paid in and will never get back under the current system.

[FreakinDJ]

138. They cost more then they pay in

Here is your answer:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5066021&mesg_id=5068885

[EFerrari]

143. No, they don't. And no matter how many right wing nutcase sites you link to,

it's not true.

There are communities that pay out more than they get but the states and the nation get more than they pay out.

[donco6]

161. Oh, CIS - great.

What's next - World Nut Daily?

"Let's be clear," wrote Frank Sharry of the National Immigration Forum, "CIS was birthed by FAIR, the militant anti-immigration group. The CIS executive director moved from FAIR to CIS to head up the organization. Although now independent, the two organizations share the same basic agenda: an American version of what in Europe is called 'zero immigration.'" According to Sharry, CIS masquerades as an objective, "squeaky clean" think tank, but CIS is "simply churning out high-sounding, low-credibility grist for the high-pitch, low-road anti-immigration forces in the United States." This assessment of CIS is widely shared among pro-immigrant groups, but CIS studies are not only frequently cited by the "low-road" nativist forces but also by major news media. (4)

[Raineyb]

204. It would appear not. n/t

Regards

[Bill McBlueState]

111. yup, residency

not citizenship.

Big difference.

[a la izquierda]

179. You're fighting my battle for me...

I can't get into the undocumented worker debates with some of the folks on here without risking getting banned. So, cheers to you :) :toast: And thanks...you're taking some of the words right out of my brain.

[donco6]

24. Why would you think she's not paying taxes? n/t

[WolverineDG]

27. because that's always the xenophobe's first argument nt

[donco6]

45. I am a bit shocked at the responses.

Everything from "it's a sad situation, but . . . " to "load up the boxcars!"

I've had a number of students who were technically illegal. They had lived here their whole life, however. They'd never been to Mexico. And the solution is to "send them back"? Back to where? They didn't come from there. And that's just the Mexicans. Add the Guatamalans, Colombians, etc.

I think they should be allowed to be treated as in-state students as long as they can show they've lived in state for the required amount of time.

[WolverineDG]

55. I knew where this was headed

It's always interesting to see where the rubber meets the road on truly liberal positions....

dg

[Control-Z]

151. If they were born here

how can they be technically illegal? Their parents would be, if they came here undocumented, but their children born here would be American and have the same rights as any other. That is the way I thought it worked. Am I mistaken?

[donco6]

165. They were not born here.

Yes, if they're born here, it's not a problem for them. But when they arrive as infants, this is the only home they've known. There is no "back there" to go back to.

[FreakinDJ]

41. Illegal Immigration Status = No I-9 form

as in working under the table = NOT Paying Taxes

[donco6]

71. 20 million illegals are all being paid under the table?

Wow. That's amazing.

Or, it could be, that most of them are actually being paid through a payroll account with a fake ID. Which means they ARE paying into FICA, just not in anticipation of getting anything.

[FreakinDJ]

76. Have you personally witness that ?

I never have

All I see is under the table Tax Cheaters

[donco6]

87. That's kinda what I figured. n/t

[Lost in CT]

154. And what would our unemployment rate be with 20 million new jobs? nt

[donco6]

163. Not the point in this subthread.

The point was the claim that 20 million people were being paid under the table, thereby avoiding payroll taxes. Which is, of course, flatly impossible. Most are paying into FICA, and will never see a benefit.

[RB TexLa]

65. So an American with no income of parents with either no income or income low enough to not pay taxes

should not be allowed admission to a taxpayer funded university because they don't pay taxes but want to use a tax payer funded institution?

I've assumed you have ignored sales taxes, excise taxes and property taxes (perhaps through rent payments) that the person in the OP pays every month.

[tritsofme]

12. It is disengenuous to frame this as "punishing children"

for the mistakes of their parents.

If these folks are 18 years old or older, and ready to go to college, they are not children they are adults.

Their immigration status is now their responsibility.

Time to act like an adult and get your affairs I'm order.

But don't expect taxpayers to subsidize you.

[SoCalDem]

25. The 'shadow-people' have two problems.. their status

AND the status of their extended family members.

The "audacity" of some of the undocumented, is the underlying issue that no one wants to touch.. How DARE they grow up smart, and actually take advantage of their life-situation.

How old should a child be, when the parents sit them down and "have the talk" with them?... the talk about "Honey, you are/are not a US citizen"..age 5?, age 10? age 14?

Kids assume that they are "in the right place", and that they can grow up to be whatever they want.

I'm sure that at some point, most kids "know" that their family is not "legal", and probably many of them are content to skulk around the edges of society, doing yardwork, babysitting and doing other menial jobs, all the while, trying desperately to NOT attract any attention....BUT there are those few who DO try to take that next step up.

Everyone KNOWS we have a lot of these "shadow-people", and many bosses & politicians are perfectly happy to exploit them, but anyone who arrived here as a child and was raised their whole life here, should have the opportunity to gain official citizenship.

For those who say "they don't pay taxes"..they DO.. they often pay taxes, and are too afraid to file for refunds due them, because they do not want any flags to be raised, or maybe their SS number is suspect.
Every time they BUY something, they pay sales taxes, and often the places they live, dictate that they may even pay higher prices, so they pay MORE sales taxes than many people do.

Many laborers are having SDI/FICA/federal/state taxes withheld from their checks, but have no way of knowing if their bosses are not just pocketing those deductions, since they may be afraid to ever file a disability claim if they are hurt. A disreputable boss who would actively seek out undocumented workers would not be above, just not claiming those workers at all, and just pocketing the "savings" for themselves.

Another issue that is never mentioned is the ENDOWMENT funds that many colleges just sit on, and never use for the intention that the donors intended. There was a recent investigation done, and it pointed out the fact that MOST people donate with the stipulation that their endowment go for assistance to students...and yet very little actually ends up doing that.

If your parents transport you as a baby, to a foreign place, and raise you there, you ARE person of the country you are raised in, whether you are legal or not.. If they do not use legal methods, it's not your fault, but should you be forced to "go back" to a place you never knew? or resign yourself to a shitty life doing menial labor? ..Some heavy choices for a young person to have to make..

No matter what eventually happens when legislators actually get around to figuring this out, there will be an equal amount for or against the decision they make, and there will still be "undocumented" people arriving, and they will still be having children.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

17. They're reading the books our children don't want to read.

[petronius]

18. Given the budget situation of many states, I'm not surprised to see this come up

My own system (CSU) is limiting enrollment for apparently the first time ever. I won't be shocked to hear calls for a crack-down on undocumented (or false-documented) students...

[Greyhound]

28. Unless we begin to prosecute illegal employers. This whole issue sucks, all sides have legitimate

points (except the true racists, fuck them. I hope their kids turn out to be gay and marry other races and adopt a bunch of brown babies), but as our economy tanks we will, right or wrong, begin to turn inward and become more concerned with our own.

Do colleges and universities have unfilled slots or are they turning qualified people away because they lack the facilities and teachers to handle more?

How do we justify depriving citizens of their chance because non-citizens are taking up the available slots?

[Deja Q]

32. It's not personal when, after 10 years, I forgot about one rent check.

Laws apply to everybody, like it or not.

That's all I can say.

Once the governments of the world collapse and we become one big world government, let me read the new rulebook then.

:shrug:

[fishwax]

34. on the other hand, several Western states allow undocumented immigrants in-state tuition

provided they graduated from a state high school (and attended for at least a specific number of years) and are pursuing permanent status. I think that approach makes more sense.

[AyanEva]

46. .

Maybe point the students in the right direction to get their documentation and if they do it within a certain amount of time they can re-enroll. Or they can stay enrolled as long as they can prove that they're working towards legal residency and then get it within a certain amount of time. If they fail to meet the terms, that's on them and the spot should be given to someone who is legal.

That said... Honestly, the students are adults, they know the law and they should be held responsible, IMO. They're aware that they're here illegally and yet they don't take steps to rectify the problem when they're perfectly capable of doing so. I'll have to side with the law on this one. Now I don't agree with banning high school students or anyone under the age of 18 because they really are subject to their parents' decisions and it's really not their fault that their family is here illegally. Once you turn 18 though, it's up to you to take responsibility because it's now a situation that you can control.

[donco6]

49. We can save a lot more money.

Just hand them a mop and a shovel right out of 6th grade. Because that HS diploma isn't going to to jack shit for them.

[no_hypocrisy]

54. Illegal status would be irrelevent were there an infinite number of slots in colleges and

universities. But usually there are a certain number of students who can enroll each semester. And admitting a student whose legal status is not establishing can result in a student who is a legal citizen. I'm torn ethics-wise which is the c
orrect stance

[EFerrari]

67. The community colleges and state colleges must be in dire straits right now.

Bush Family Values are going to keep hitting us hard for a while. :(

[roody]

85. Who is going to wash our floors if

we let them into our schools?!

[roody]

107. Hey---she can join the armed forces!!

[lynne]

116. I'm fine with this and hope it is an incentive for her to make herself legal -

- so she can enjoy all the opportunities that come with being a US citizen.

[EFerrari]

121. There is no such thing as an illegal human being.

And you better hope this country never has to pay reparations because even China won't be able to lend us the amount of damages we'd owe. College tuition?

lol

[Two Americas]

122. thanks

That needs to be said, whenever the "illegal" talk comes up again.

Human beings have value, they are the source of all wealth, they are not a "cost" or a "burden."

[EFerrari]

125. The right wing, which is basically anti-people, is always trying to find a way

to make their followers fear other people without reflection.

People need to ask, why is there a migration to the north on the American continent? Why does that happen?

And they need to stop spouting Lou Dobbs' talking points before they figure out if they are true or not. Because he is a destructive sociopath, too.

[lynne]

128. You can parse words all you want but the fact remains that she is not a US Citizen -

- and she will find less opportunities available to her until such time as she amends her immigration status to comply with our laws. And I still have no problem with it.

[donco6]

129. Especially if we do everything we can to eliminate those opportunities.

Yes, that's what we need to be working on. Keeping people in those floor-moppin' jobs.

[EFerrari]

130. Correctly identifying the status of human beings is not parsing words.

[JVS]

137. Proper student visas are required in other countries. Why shouldn't they be required here?

[EFerrari]

173. Because the corporate powers that be don't want them. n/t

[depakid]

142. It's always impressive how many Americans- even on DU are willing to cut off their noses

to spite their faces over immigration issues.

So many petty, parochial people- it's no wonder Bush ended up in the Whitehouse....

[Vattel]

145. The ideal is equal opportunity.

The fact that someone is here illegally is irrelevant to the value of their receiving the same opportunities that legal residents enjoy. Why is it irrelevant? Because territorial rights are completely arbitrary and aritifial. There is nothing immoral about being here illegally if you are only seeking opportunity. Not all illegal acts are immoral.

[alarimer]

147. Most of them have been here for years.

If they are here because their parents brought them here when they were small and then they graduated from high school, as far as I am concerned they are citizens. There should be a general amnesty for any illegal here more than 10 years. Fuck the racists in this thread. These are KIDS. They deserve a college education and whatever scholarships they can get. Fuck all you cold-hearted assholes. Just fuck you. So you think they should go back to some country they have never known? Fuck that shit.

[EFerrari]

152. Thank you for thinking like a human being.

Sometimes I wonder what all these yahoos would say if the teens they know woke up one day and had to deal with these problems.

Mine could barely keep themselves bathed, in clean clothes and at work on time. Having to repatriate to a place they'd never been without their family would have been right out of the picture. People can be stupid as hell.

[zane25]

155. Ok

So my daughter can go get bent to make accomodations for children and families here illegally. I like you attitude! Let me know when I can come to your house and share all you have my friend. Oh and I will need the address.

[donco6]

164. And here's one now . . . n/t

[zane25]

167. I would like to know,

Exactly what you are doing to make a difference for anyone? I am resposible for my daughters education, and if someone else is gaming the system and causing harm to families like mine who are simply trying to get through our lives. It's all well and good when you have no real stake in it.

[donco6]

168. You have to work out your own inner demons.

Not me.

[zane25]

170. I have no demons

But I also have no need to champion a cause that will bring harm to normal happy families. And no matter how you twist your line of crap it does affect more people than you care to even admit. Give us a break and look at reality, not your blindness for the cause.

[donco6]

172. Normal, as opposed to . . .

really brown.

I get it now.

[zane25]

175. You lost me here.

What does brown have to do with people being here illegally? Is this another sideways attempt to call anyone who disagrees with illegal immigration a racist? You don't seem to know crap do you? If you can't see the problems and issues that arise from flooding the job market, schools and hospitals with individuals who are not here legally then you are not intelligent enough to continue talking to.

[donco6]

176. Say no more.

I understand you *completely*.

[EFerrari]

174. How normal is your "happy family" if you have to worry about some poor kid

who has nothing displacing you?

Seriously, maybe you should be more worried about yourself. Because if the best you can do is rant about kids who don't even have a country, you are in very sorry shape.

[zane25]

177. I have no responsiblity for that.

I will never understand the apologists. Everyone deserves a chance at a better life, just not at the expense of others. You want to give away to anyone that wants it what is not your to give. Charity starts at home, im guessing bitching on a message board is your contribution.

[Vanje]

185. Tell me

All of these brown children at your daughter's school that are ruining everything for your "normal happy family"....

You know they're all illegal?
How do you know?
Have you seen their papers?
Is it the accent and language that is a tip off?
Can you tell which child was born in this country?
How can you tell?
Would you exclude children from school because they come from a Spanish speaking home?
Would you base it on skin color?


Oh hell . Forget it. Never mind the above questions.

This one question chills me.
What I really want to know is :

What do you think your daughter is picking up from your negative feelings about brown children.

[Vanje]

187. Understand this "apologist"

I just dont see blaming brown 6 year old school children, for our problems.

[Vanje]

183. "normal happy families"?

I see.

[Vanje]

188. Actually

You and your family would be welcome to my table at my house. But there may be Mexicans eating here too, and I wont be kicking them out so that your "happy normal family" can have more.

[Evoman]

181. That's the worst fucking part of this racist bullshit....these kids ARE American in every way that

counts. Some of them have been here since they were babies. They don't know anything about Mexico. They have never lived there in their living memory.

Imagine if tommorow you found out your parents were illegal. Then you were told you had to go back to a third world country to work in a factory for 15 hours a day. No wait, even better...your perfect English really helps you when the only job you can get is working at a resort serving the people who kicked your top 5% ass out of their country.

That's their reality. They grew up with the same malls, same schools, same television stations you did. They didn't even have any say in coming here. They didn't have any choice in being socialized Americans.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

192. What about the kids who have tried and failed to immigrate legally?

I think there is an excellent case to be made for making it easier to immigrate to the first world.

However, I think that that should be done by making legal immigration easier, not by tolerating illegal immigration more.

[zane25]

153. I see this and deal with it every day.

My daughter is 6 and is in kindergarden, every day she is taken out of her class and placed in a special classroom with all the english speaking students from the other classes.

There are five kindergarden classes and there are only 8 native english speakers. So I wonder how much class time my daughter is missing out on because of this. I tried to get involved in the PTO (parent teacher organization) but english is rarely if ever spoken. I was also on the "accountability council" but it was disbanded when it was brought up that there is no translation provided.

I have no idea how many if any are illegal, I really don't care. I just want my daughter to come home having learned how to read, not the couple spanish words of the day.

So now I have to move out of this area and find a place that is more diverse. I want the diversity, not 90% of the school spanish speakers and the faculty having no choice but to cater to the local populace.

[EFerrari]

157. Have you tried calling your local Klan?

I bet they have good resources to share with you. Denver has long been a Klan stronghold so you'd think their phone tree would be extensive.

[zane25]

158. You sir are an ass.

I want my daughter to learn in school not be moved around classrooms to benefit any other students. If you are not directly affected then maybe you should just shut up. When I ask my daughter if she can spell her name I get a no, but i'll be damned if she can't tell me about the spanish words she learned today. And please, drop the rascist bullshit. If that's all you have then maybe you should rethink your lousy position.

[EFerrari]

159. That's "Ma'am" to you. n/t

[zane25]

160. Very good.

I apologize for the mistake.

[BlooInBloo]

178. If you had any sense, you'd apologize for a helluva lot more than that.

[noamnety]

194. I'm sorry you aren't taking advantage of a great opportunity.

Families in this situation can react with resentment and anger because their child is being exposed to something that doesn't meet their own cultural "norm."

Or they can react with enthusiasm because their child is being exposed to something that doesn't meet their cultural norm.

When my daughter was young and in a similar situation, I was excited that she was learning other languages - there is no better time to do that than when they are so young. Those other kids could teach your child to be bilingual in a way that high school language classes can never match, if you let them. It's so odd to me that instead of embracing an educational opportunity that few people get, your reaction is to deliberately move her away so she doesn't learn both languages.

I don't know what the fear is about.

I certainly don't - as a teacher - understand the statement "the faculty has no choice but to cater to the local populace." That's the whole point of being a teacher, no? To assess the needs of their students and cater to those needs. Whose needs did you want the teachers to cater to, if not the needs of the actual kids in their classroom?

[zane25]

196. I am taking advantage of a great opportunity.

I want my daughter to experience and be exposed to all the diversity she can handle. Problem is the education seems to be taking a backseat to it. I learned four languages while growing up in a military family overseas. I am not afraid of the brown people or of her learning as many languages as she can pickup. I just wasnt to make sure she can read and write the one she already knows.The culture and diversity are supposed to be a part of the educational process not, displacing it.

[noamnety]

197. Whose educational process?

"The culture and diversity are supposed to be a part of the educational process not, displacing it."

You mean for your daughter, for her classmates, or both? What if the demands for an English-only education are displacing their educational process - is that also one of your concerns?

[zane25]

198. My concern

Is that is it only the english speaking students being removed from thier classrooms while there is special instruction for the ESL students. Those students make up nearly 85% of my daughters school. Her kindergarden class has 31 children right now, thats down from nearly 40 earlier in the year. They have since brought in a teacher at the expense of other staff.

If you don't think that illegal immigration has any effect on the class sizes and the fact that children are being moved around from class to class because of the massive ESL program then I don't know what to tell you.

Not to mention that I have been helping out as best I can with pretty much a continous fund raiser to help bring back the staff that had to be let go to bring in more teachers.

[noamnety]

199. The school's job is to educate ALL the students.

Not just yours.

Research has shown that the most effective education for ESL students is bilingual. I don't understand why you'd want to deliberately use methods that are the least effective for 85% of the class. That gets to the heart, though, of what "privilege" is all about.

If your daughter is being given separate instruction for part of the day that is more focused on her needs, be grateful for it.

Your language choices are odd here, by the way. Not sure if you are aware of that or not. I assume both groups are getting instruction that is best tailored to their needs - differentiated learning, if you want to call it that. It's not that THEY are getting "special" instruction ... the language is reminiscent of people referring to gay marriage as "special" rights. It's equitable rights - instruction that best meets their needs. Try phrasing it that way, without weird implications about whose classroom it is. I had to go to separate classrooms for art classes all through school - I never viewed it as being removed from "my" classroom.)

So ... here's my rewrite of your first sentence: For a portion of the day, native English speakers and ESL students are separated so each can receive lessons tailored to their needs.

Thanks for doing the fundraising for teachers who were let go. My own hours (and pay) are cut this semester. But the administration needed to do it, I suppose, for the greater good. Their priorities should be with the needs of the students, not loyalty to the staff, even when our demographics change.

I applaud your school for doing what was necessary - some schools aren't progressive enough to embrace the most effective means of educating all their children, and instead would deliberately hang onto discriminatory (inequitable) teaching policies.

I'm finishing up my masters in education right now, and in the fall I had a course on bilingual education. What your school is doing really is the responsible approach, even if you don't personally like it. Not sure that makes it any easier for you to swallow, but maybe you will give it some thought at some point in the future.

[zane25]

200. Well the other problem is

Due to the shortage of teachers it's not a teacher they are being placed with while out of class. It usually an assistant or other staff member and she is learning nothing during this time.

My problem is not with immigration. It is uncontrolled and unlimited immigration, to the point that the system is pretty much overwhelmed. I know there will always be ESL students and programs, no problem as they are needed. But what I have a problem accepting is that the few teachers that are there are not teaching all the students and some are being separated and not being given any instruction for a certain portion of the day.

[noamnety]

201. I'm finding your story suspect.

All the native-English speaking kids are taken away and given no instruction for a portion of the day? Really? They just get a study hall that hour?

[zane25]

202. Pretty much

Thats why im so upset, it ends up being coloring hour or whatever activity they can come up with. And she already has a regularly scheduled art class. I have already taken care of the issue for my daughter. We are moving at the end of the month to a much better school district. It's just a shame that the other kids that may not have the option are stuck.

[varelse]

156. The new policy appears to be punishing the schools as well...

It costs them tuition money

Prior to the law, Horry-Georgetown had an open admission policy. George Swindoll, assistant vice president for enrollment, estimated the technical college has lost $50,000 in tuition revenue this semester because of the new law. Undocumented immigrants paid out of state tuition prior to the new law and cannot qualify for federal assistance

It costs them professionally

At Myrtle Beach High School, the law had immediate repercussions.

Peggy Ryals, who teaches English as a second language, said, "I can't say to students anymore, 'Stay in school. You can be a chef. You can be a psychologist.' "

It's going to cost more money to enforce - the law doesn't seem to fund verification or enforcement separately.

How to verify students remains the largest sticking point for institutions. The S.C. Commission on Higher Education is working to secure a citizenship test through the S.C. Department of Motor Vehicles, which has verified status since 2002.

Whatever means is settled upon, checking what current and potential students wrote in their applications costs money, College of Charleston Admissions Dean Don Burkardsaid.

In the end, this and similar laws in other states will cost all of us more than it could possibly save, as the human potential of bright and hardworking young people is lost.

Truly, a no-win situation.

[steelmania75]

166. Typical of Myrtle Beach. I went there on a vacation once and it sucked because...

...no one there liked the fact that I was from the North. I can't believe they're still bitter over the Civil War...

[slampoet]

169. Why Not? Colleges have already effectively banned poor people.

[Evoman]

180. You graduate top 5% in your class, you DESERVE the spot. In fact, it would make me fucking

deliriously happy if she took the spot from a person whose bottom 50 percent but whose rich prick parents can pay for their education.

Illegal immigrant, poor parents, every single thing against her, and she STILL beats out the rest of the fuckers in her class. Hell, give her a scholarship, let her graduate, then make her a legal citizen who pays taxes.

I think it's insane that we live in a world where talent and intelligence is just fucking wasted like this, and some idiot who doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground can do whatever he wants because his mom squated and popped out a nice white baby on American soil. Fuck, I say we import more smart kids and export our idiots to mexico.

[Vanje]

182. You got it nt

[noamnety]

184. Sadly, you are in the minority on DU

The demographics here seem to have shifted toward "blame the immigrants" in a way that flat out scares me.

As the economy worsens, I expect to see all kinds of racism embraced on this forum.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

191. I wouldn't care except for two words

Flight school. I think we need to know who exactly is going to our schools.

[noamnety]

195. two words:

Timothy McVeigh