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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-17-09 07:33 PM
Original message
The Case Against a Universal Health Plan That Includes PRIVATE For Profit Insurers
Edited on Tue Feb-17-09 07:47 PM by McCamy Taylor
Warning! A super-long McCamy post! Only read if you care about health care!

Intro. A Capitalist Will Sell You the Anthrax Spore You Use To Kill Him

In the field of its highest development, in the United States, the pursuit of wealth, stripped of its religious and ethical meaning, tends to become associated with purely mundane passions, which often actually give it the character of sport.

Max Weber, The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism


In my last journal, I described the current Dutch national health care system, which is receiving a lot of attention from U.S. business interests. A handful of private companies compete for citizens’ mandated government supplemented premium dollars, with a risk adjustment to equalize the field so that age, gender and disease status do not enter into the equation.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/McCamy%20Taylor/373

I described why this is better (for the Netherlands) than their old three tiered system, and discussed some of the reasons why the United States may not be ready for such a plan.

Of course, we all know the number one reason why the Netherlands and the United States can not be compared. Max Weber spelled it out in his book The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism years ago. The Netherlands, one of the oldest capitalist countries, knows that there are rules to doing business. One delivers a sound product or service and is rewarded with profit in payment for one’s labor. This profit is proof of good moral character and of God’s favor---or so goes Calvinist doctrine. A capitalist who delivered an inferior product or service would not just be a trickster, he would be morally deficient under this code.

However, in the United States, anything goes. The rich are considered gods, money is its own reward, and it does not matter how you acquired your wealth and power. All you have to do is keep insisting that you are right and the other guys are wrong, and people will take your word for it if you have enough cash to back it up. No doubt the way that this country was settled----we were populated by the criminals, the riff raff, the discontented younger sons of Europe who held no truck with the prevailing wisdom of their home countries---had a lot to do with our current “every man for himself” attitude. Plus, the mix of cultures makes it easy for each group to find some Other to exploit. It is like being able to practice unbridled colonialism right at your own backdoor! The arrival of fresh waves of cheap immigrant labor could be exploited to divide and conquer the working class to keep their wages low, their living conditions poor and the employers’ rich as sin. All of these factors combined to turn United States capitalists into some of the greediest sons of bitches you will ever meet, people who have been raised in an ethic which teaches that compassion is weakness, contracts were made to be broken, war is good for business, a certain level of unemployment, poverty, sickness and starvation are even better for business (they keep wages low) and the democratic process is the most dangerous thing for business of all.

I. The Second Price Gouging of California: Blue Cross Blue Shield/WellPoint/Anthem or How California’s Health Care Dollars Started Flowing to Indiana

We do not need to speculate. Some of these plans have proven track records of gross mismanagement bordering on highway robbery.

Take the case of Blue Cross Blue Shield in California . This PDF document details how BCBS California was acquired by WellPoint/Anthem.

http://www.moasc.org/CULMULATED_ARTICLES____Complaints_spark_state_DMHC_hearing_on_Blue_Cross____Updated_8_Aug_2007.pdf

Go to page four to find out that WellPoint started siphoning money out of California ($695 million in one year) at the same time that it began to institute such classic health insurance scams as

1) illegally deny insurance to people for frivolous reasons like acne—this can be used to hide the real reason you are denying a policy which may be based upon gender, race family history gleaned from illegal sources (like pharmacy records that have been purchased on the info market). It also provides a convenient excuse to terminate a policy later, since everyone has had a pimple at least once in their life.

2) illegally retroactively terminate policies---used to avoid paying for expensive conditions that develop in people who are already covered. For instance, if a member develops leukemia, the insurer has an employee find a loophole to retroactively terminate the policy.

3) deny medically necessary treatments for people with life threatening conditions. If the people die as a result, the insurance company can only be sued for the cost of the treatment in most cases, because of ERISA. And most people will pay for the treatment out of pocket and change insurance plans----which means one less sick member to worry about.

4) delay payments. This is a classic way private insurers make money on the interest of all the millions they sit on for three to six or more months routinely.

5) began to sharply increase premiums—self explanatory.

6) and cut reimbursements to providers----self explanatory. However, this is also intended to force medical providers off the insurance plan. The fewer doctors who are on the insurance plan, the more “sick” patients will drop out. “Healthy” members will not notice or care. This allows the insurer to prune the expensive patients and keep the cherries. Insurers will often find ways to cut reimbursements more for certain undesirable specialists like cancer doctors (oncologists) whose patients are always money sinks. They can do this with outlandishly low reimbursements for chemotherapy. This will ensure that everyone with cancer goes to a different insurer. Cherry picking is the number one way that health insurers make money in America. They love healthy people. They despise anyone with a health problem and the doctors who treat them.

No wonder private insurers have such inflated overhead. They must stay busy with all their schemes. The state of California received thousands of complaints from health care consumers and providers after the merger of BCBS with WellPoint/Anthem.

Note on page 6 that by 2007, WellPoint had posted an 11 point profit---at the same time that it was whining to California about how its contract with that state was making it go broke.

Note on page 15 that BCBS paid an “out of state sister company” $1.3 billion in one year for claims processing, an “expense” which was suspected of being yet another illegal transfer of funds of the California health care system.

On page 16, the LA Times reports that in a sample of 83 out of the over 1000 policies rescinded in 2004-5, 63 (well over half the sample) were illegally rescinded. For instance, the people actually did report the medical condition BCBS said that they did not report or the time elapsed between an old illness was longer than the cut off period. In one case, even though the state told them to reinstate a policy, BCBS refused (!). This study means that it is likely that over 500 people had their individual policies canceled because they filed expensive medical claims, not because of any problem with their initial application.

On page 19, an internal insurance memo shows that BCBS had redlined firefighters, policemen, steel workers, athletes, people with toenail fungus, allergies, acne, expectant fathers among others. This added up to 1 in 5 Californians accorded to the article. Why was all of this still happening in a progressive state like Calfornia? Because Gov. Arnold kept getting big bucks from the same health insurers who were price going California and taking its money to Indiana. In exchange, he kept demanding that Californians be forced to buy individual health insurance polices (from the companies that would refuse to sell to one in five) but at the same time he would keep vetoing any efforts to reform health care in the state.

You know, Arnold was hand picked by Ken Lay of Enron. His job was supposed to be to facilitate the California price gouging by Enron and the other energy distributors. By the time he was sworn in, his job was to squash the California civil suit against Enron. The deposition phase of the lawsuit would have required people like Karl Rove, Dick Cheney, Thomas White and some people at the FERC to testify about their involvement in the price gouging. Arnold helped Enron and the White House cover up the price gouging (the DOJ had the criminal case sealed up) and ensured that justice would never be done. So now, Arnold is helping another red state, Indiana via WellPoint/Anthem price gouge California. When will the people of California learn?


So, did Blue Cross Blue Shield finally get banned from California for their illegal deceptive practices? Are you kidding?

http://law.freeadvice.com/insurance_law/insurers_bad_faith/blue-shield-blue-cross-agree-to-pay-fine.htm

They got a wrist slap. They got a $13 million fine that could be reduced if they follow through with plans to offer new insurance polices to the 1000 people whose polices were rescinded back in 2004-5. Oh, and they might reimburse some of those people for care they received. In exchange, I am sure that the state of California will step up the plate on their behalf in the billion dollar lawsuit that has been filed against BCBS in the same matter. I wonder how many of those 1000 people want to be associated with an insurance company whose name is worse than mud?

And looky! Arnold vetoed a bill that would have created a review process for when insurers try to rescind insurance contracts.

http://www.fiercehealthcare.com/story/ca-governor-vetoes-bill-banning-some-health-policy-cancellations/2008-10-01

He must love those insurance company dollars. That brings me to my next point.

II. Private Insurance Companies Will Answer to a Handful of Corrupt Politicians and Not to Health Care Consumers *

The main reason for having private companies involved is because that gives people choice , right? If several companies compete for your health insurance business, then they will have to play by the rules, cater to the consumer and practice good business polices. That is the mantra we are going to hear in the months to come.

I will give you time to pick yourself off the floor where I am sure that you are rolling around, laughing.

Big companies no longer answer to consumers. As you can see from the example of California and BCBS/Wellpoint/Anthem, all a greedy health insurer has to do is bribe one corrupt governor and he will keep vetoing any legislation that interferes with the insurers’ ability to profit at the misery of the people. If the governor is a former movie star in the state where Hollywood is located, people will keep electing him, even though he is killing their elderly mother and their premature babies, because they like having a movie star governor.

Only in America.

The same thing happened in Texas over a decade ago. Way back then, the Health Maintenance Organizations (HMOs) had gone absolutely ape shit with greed. To give you an idea how batty they were, I will tell you a few real life stories that happened to me way back when in the mid to late 1990s.

First story. HMO physician calls me up, tells me that my patient who has lung cancer is getting too many expensive treatments from his specialist and he needs to be on hospice. The treatment in question is a fairly simple procedure in which a needle in inserted into the area around the lung to withdraw fluid which builds up occasionally, smothering him. Other than that, he is walking, talking, doing well. The HMO thinks he would be better off if he was allowed to die (from being smothered). They want me to tell the patient that I do not like the specialist’s treatments and that I want him to see a different specialist from now on. I tell the HMO doctor that I am fine with the specialist’s treatments, and that if the HMO does not like what they specialist is doing, they always have the option of not paying him. He says that the HMO does not want to do that. They want the patient to think that the HMO’s decision is coming from me. I tell them that it is not my decision and I hang up. At this point, I am convinced that I have seen the absolute worst that an insurance company is capable of. Of course, I am wrong.

A different insurance company will not allow my ten year old patient who is having “staring spell” seizures to see a pediatric neurologist. They insist that he has to see an adult neurologist, because their plan only has adult neurologists. There are plenty of pediatric neurologists in our community, and (of course) none of the adult neurologists will have anything to do with a ten year old patient. The physician medical director of the HMO comes up with a 1001 reasons why we are being unreasonable. I finally have to turn in my resignation from the insurance plan, before we get a referral for the child.

Third story. I have a lot of people with complicated medical conditions in my practice, because that is just how I am. I am pretty good at keeping them out of the hospital. I get a visit from a physician representing my local doctor run HMO one day telling me that I have a lot of people who are members of their insurance with complicated medical problems but I am really good at keeping them out of the hospital, so keep up the good work. A few weeks later, I get a letter telling me that because I have so many “sick” people in my patient pool, the insurance is going to have to start penalizing me a whopping 25-50% of my reimbursement to make up for how much money they are costing the HMO. For the next year, the HMO is on my back constantly, telling me what a bad doctor I am for treating so many people with complicated medical problems, when other doctors in the community have managed to attract only healthy patients. I have seen some of those patients. They tell me that Doctor so and so saw them one time and told them “Your condition is too complicated for me.” Or “I only let people discuss one medical problem per visit.” Or “You do not need to see an oncologist for your cancer. I will take care of it from now on.” (All true stories!) I warn the HMO that what they are doing is illegal. Eventually the HMO gets into a lot of trouble with the state, but not before I have given up the practice of medicine, in part because of the threats that have me worried that I will be forced out of business.

I tell you these representative tales not to garner sympathy but rather to give non-physicians an idea of what it was like to practice medicine in an area with heavy HMO infiltration back in the 1990s. It was sheer hell.

Now, to bring this Cajun tale to a close, patients felt the abuses, too, and they were also fed up. So, the Texas State legislature decided to act to rein in the managed care industry. In 1996, they crafted the first Patient Protection Act. It passed overwhelmingly. And guess which Texas Governor vetoed it when the legislature was out of session, meaning that the legislature would not have a chance to override the veto? That’s right. George W. himself. Keep in mind that W. never did anything controversial. Never vetoed anything. Never did anything that might make himself unpopular with the voters. However, he sucked up to the health insurance industry on this one and took the heat that followed. Because there is a lot of money to be made in being the errand boy for the health insurance industry.

W.’s veto of the first Patient Protection Act, which would have stopped a lot of health insurance industry abuses, like the ones I describe in that last vignette was so wildly unpopular that when the Texas State Legislature passed a second version of the law in 1998 and he was considering a run for the presidency, he did not dare veto it again. Instead, he let it pass into law without signing it. That way, he could brag during the debates with Al Gore that he had helped pass the landmark Texas Patient Protection laws—even though he vetoed them the first time around. Note that Margaret Carlson and all the people in the press who had so much fun nitpicking Gore could not be bothered fact checking W. on something important like that. If they had, they might have guessed what he would do next. Once selected to be president, he had John Ashcroft challenge that same Texas Patient Protection Act that he bragged about to get selected, and he had it struck down in federal court.

So you see, the health insurance industry can always prevail over the will of the people, if they just buy the right politician.

Check out this document about the Medical Industrial Complex ties of the Bush Administration starting lineup back in 2001. Anyone who read this knew exactly where this country was heading. W. was bought and paid for by Big Health.

http://www.healthlaw.org/library/attachment.67694?print

Of the 46 members of the transition team, 30 are hired lobbyists or representatives of insurance and pharmaceutical companies and their trade associations, including such notables as Blue Cross and Blue Shield, the Federation of American Hospitals, Merck & Co., the Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America, the Health Insurance Association of America, the American Hospital Association, and Eli Lilly and Co.

Together, these 31 individuals and their firms gave $11,181,236 in campaign contributions during the 1999-2000 election cycle—an average of $360,685 apiece. Blue Cross and Blue Shield Association alone gave over $2 million in PAC, soft money, and individual donations during the 2000 election cycle. The American Hospital Association and Eli Lilly each contributed $1.6 million. Lobbying expenditures were also in the millions. The American Hospital Association’s total lobbying expenditures in 1999 were over $12.4 million. Blue Cross & Blue Shield spent over $11 million in 1999 lobbying expenditures. Merck and the Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America both spent more than 5 million.


What did they get? The massive Medicare drug give away to Big Pharm. The Medicare Advantage rip off which steals from traditional Medicare to overpay insurers to do nothing for healthy seniors. Lax oversight of the drug industry. The VA System and Medicare both attacked in order to frighten Americans away from national single payer models. The installation of Gov. Arnold in California, since “as goes California so goes the nation” would have meant many more states with sensible health policy by now if he had not been installed by coup to prevent that state from enacting sane health care reform.

The ability of private companies to give bribes to elected officials is probably the number one reason to keep them out of our national (or state) health care reform package. If we use the existing Medicare system, or, if we set up state governmental agencies modeled upon Medicare, these governmental bodies will be restricted, by law, from lobbying or making campaign contributions to people like Arnold and W.----and Democrats. Right now there are a lot of greedy politicians on both sides of the aisle having a collective



moment at the thought of turning off this tap.

Too fucking bad. Given the lack of morals in America when it comes to money, there is no way that we can trust our businessmen and our politicians when it comes to our nation’s health. No way. No how. All it will take is one weasely little Texas governor to blow it all for the rest of us. Or one Hollywood actor. Two, if you count Reagan who got his start doing anti-health work, too.

III. How Can You Have Cradle to Grave Coverage With Companies That Have the Lifespan of Fireflies?


The key to sane public health is having one payer responsible for each person’s health care expenditures from birth to death. That way, the payer has an incentive to keep each person as healthy as possible. An investment in good nutrition, exercise, blood pressure control etc. made in the teens will pay off in decreased cardiovascular disease in the 50s and 60s. Right now, Americans pay twice as much per person as most other industrialized countries to get poor quality health care, because we spend too much on rescue care when we get sick and end of life futile care and not enough on prevention when it counts.

Companies which are bought and sold annually do not give a shit what happens to you next year. They want to collect your premiums this year and pay no claims on you this year. Prevention means preventing you from filing a claim this year. Period. If they can spend a dime on you this year to keep you from needing a thousand dollars worth of health care on some other insurance next year, they will keep the dime, thank you. That is how they make their profit. Those dimes add up. Even if the thousand dollars worth of care leaves you only half as healthy as you would have been if the disease had been prevented with the dime. Your health is your problem. They are in the business of making money.

Only an entity that will be around for the life of a human being can be trusted to care for that human being. And there are only a few organizations that will still exist intact in the year 2060. Those are your state and federal government and maybe a handful of large, charitable (nonreligious) nonprofits. Blue Cross Blue Shield, United Health. Cigna and all the rest will have changed names, filed for bankruptcy, been reorganized and reshuffled a dozen times or more before we grow old and die.

Now, maybe if this was Europe or Japan, we might find some private insurance companies that have been around forever and which plan to be around forever. But not in the land of “let’s ditch the old and start over with something fresh and new.” Americans love to try out the next new thing. After the word free the best way to capture attention in an ad is with the word new .

So, if we entrust health care to companies that like to buff themselves up all nice and pretty and glowing so that they can merge or be acquired by other companies, those companies will try to scoop all the cream off the health care dollars. They will reap a fast profit, forego expenditures for disease prevention and health education, cherry pick so that they can get lots of premiums with a minimum of outlays, delay payments, and when their bank accounts are full, they will sell and give themselves big fat bonuses and squander the rest on artificially inflated overhead that feeds their subsidiaries----then come begging the tax payers for more money for the failing public health care system. No research into disease prevention strategies will ever be performed, because they could care less. They will not be in this business that long. They will not try to establish good will with the clients, because if you actually file a claim or use their services, you are one of their bad customers.

On the other hand, if our health care dollars go to a payer which will be around a long time and which does not plan to post a profit or pay its CEOs hundreds of millions or pay itself billions to file claims, that payer will invest in a sound public health policy that includes disease prevention. If we reduce smoking, gun violence, obesity, sedentary lifestyle, we can cut health expenditures a lot, for very little money. Improvements in clean water, air and some other environmental changes will cost a little more, but they will allow us to reap much greater medical savings than another ACE inhibitor or statin type cholesterol drug. If we reduce unwanted pregnancies through sane sex ed and contraception policy, the medical savings will be vast----and none of this requires an MRI scan for every citizen or ten pills a day or medical spending that eats up 15% of our GNP.

IV. A Clockwork Orange a Day Is Not What the Doctor Prescribed

At this point, I am not sure that we could even train one of the traditional health insurance companies to become a new, improved national public health payer----and why should we try? Their whole mind set has been sick people are bad for much too long. They exist to collect premiums and all their actions are geared towards finding new and creative ways to avoid paying out on medical claims. Is that a skill that is likely to come in handy in the brave new world of better public health and disease prevention?

I don’t think so. We might as well hire a company like Nike that has good accountants and keeps legible books. At least they are disease neutral.

Asking someone like Blue Cross Blue Shield to change is a bit like the mind control number played on Malcolm McDowell in a Clockwork Orange . Even if we could turn that insurance company into an apple that was good for us, wouldn’t it require an awful lot of work? What if the training did not stick and it reverted to its unhealthful ways? We already have Medicare with its 3-7% overhead, and its large network of providers (which would become even larger if there was a massive enrollment of a bunch of younger, healthier people. Not all doctors want to have geriatric practices.) Maybe we should all take advantage of the natural apples that we have and not go trying to play Dr. Frankenstein. All those nurses and doctors who work for the health insurance companies right now will have no problem getting jobs once we have universal health care. The same goes for the coders, billers and all the other skilled workers. Only the CEOs may find themselves looking for work.

* I just had to edit this to add a link to an article about WellCare an insurance company in Florida which apparently gave millions in bribes to Jeb Bush Republicans. In exchange it was allowed to divert funds that should have been spent on the neediest people in the state---Medicaid recipients---for its own profits.

http://citizensforethics.org/node/37300

You know, there is a reason states like California and Florida are now facing bankruptcy. When you allow private companies to rob you of all your taxpayer dollars and you still have all of these citizens who still have all of their needs which must be met, you wind up being broke and needy. And the companies that you allowed to rip you off like WellCare and WellPoint, and the others just like them, they sure as hell as not going to offer to give it back without a fight.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-17-09 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
1. I think a single payer should be tested in one state just to see how it would work in the USA.
Edited on Tue Feb-17-09 07:57 PM by Cleita
California would be a good one to run a test program, since our health care system is more fucked than anywhere else. The California legislature passed such a bill in both houses, the Sheila Kuehl bill SB840 on August 28, 2006. Arnold promptly vetoed it. He favors the Massachusetts model of making everyone buy health care and letting the state purchase it for people who can't afford it. It's already proving to not work very well because there are still uninsured and underinsured and it's costing the state more money than it should because the insurance companies have their hand in the State Treasury cookie jar now. I think the Kuehl bill should be tested for at least three years to see how well it works. If successful in a large and diverse state like California, it will be a good model for the rest of the country.

http://www.onecarenow.org/sb840.htm

I would like to see the bill resuscitated and implemented as a pilot program.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-17-09 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Oregon already tested it.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-17-09 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Bullshit. Private insurers were left in place
Without access to the dollars that private for profit insurance steals, a public plan will of necessity be bled dry. You can't do universal health care from the general budget.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-17-09 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Oregon's program is more like Massachusetts, not Sheila Kuehl's health plan.
Single payer isn't single payer if the private insurance companies and HMOs are also collecting premiums and paying claims.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-17-09 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. So did Ontario and Quebec and Nova Scotia...you get the idea. nt
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-17-09 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Ahnold is taking the blame for much he didn't do but he really did
Screw over californians when he vetoed Sheila Keuhl's bill in 2006.

She put together a wonderful package and the people deserve to have it enacted.

Di Feinstein deserves the blame too, because she personally sees to it that the Dems don't get to have a good winning candidate on the ticket against Republicans like Arnold.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-17-09 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Other problem with the "one state test"---what if everyone with a bad disease moves there?
Edited on Tue Feb-17-09 09:43 PM by McCamy Taylor
And ends up bankrupting that system, because they suddenly have all the heart failure and dialysis and transplant people in the country living there?

This might be a reason why no one wants to be first penguin off the ice flow.

Just read an article in JAMA. There are a few million people on Medicare with moderate to severe congestive heart failure who consume about 30% of all the Medicare spending each year because congestive heart failure is such a horrible multi-system disease. If the uninsured equivalent of those folks find out that a state will cover their health expenses, you know they will be on the road tomorrow.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-17-09 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Back when California had the best welfare program in the state,
they required a six month's residency before you could apply for it. It stopped the flow of out of state immigrants looking for better welfare pretty well. I'm sure, since it's a test program, similar strictures could be applied. As far as your congestive heart failure scenario, if they have Medicare paying for it, why would they be on the road to get what they already have? Most people that screwed up and too young for Medicare usually qualify for Medicaid or in California, Medical, which is paid from the same source as Medicare.
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sansatman Donating Member (69 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-18-09 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #1
17. Already done...
There are about 40 million people on Medicare...a single payer system. HR 676 just expands and improves Medicare.



In fact, the goal of this program is simply to create a fair and equitable single payer health care plan that all Americans can afford and benefit from while leaving most of the existing structure of practicing health care professionals and facilities completely alone. You choose your doctors, your hospitals and need no permission from anyone to go see them whenever necessary. No exclusions, no pre-existing conditions, no denied claims, just top rate, affordable, professional care for you and your family including prescription drugs, mental health AND dental services in addition to long term care, whenever you need it.

http://www.hr676.org/5.html
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-18-09 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. I know that HR 676 is the program most of us want, but there is no way corporate
insurance will let it happen. Medicare can't replace insurance until we run insurance out of Dodge. One way is to prove to the doubting Thomas just how it would work without insurance in the equation. This is my proposal, a laboratory experiment of sorts. Sure, we have Canada up north and their Medicare system should prove that it works. Even Michael Moore tried to show that. But for some reason or the other, no one believes that Canada's system works that well. If it works in California though, then there is an excellent chance that it will go nationwide because that historically has been the case. As California goes, so goes the country.
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sansatman Donating Member (69 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 03:57 AM
Response to Reply #19
26. Don't give up with out a fight!
"but there is no way corporate insurance will let it happen. Medicare can't replace insurance until we run insurance out of Dodge."
Who is going to do the running? There may be thousands of corporate lobbyists courting "OUR" representatives, but there are tens of millions pissed off progressives who want this fixed. Here are a few places to start:

http://www.democrats.com/single-payer-petition

http://www.pnhp.org/action/sample_letter_to_legislators.php
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. I've been fighting this battle since 1982 when I found myself at the age
of 42 dumped from my Blue Cross and forced into an HMO by my employer. The reason he gave me and those middle aged employees who also had this done to them was that the insurance company refused to insure anyone over that age, without a hefty premium increase, because they were a riskier demographic. Our employer opted for the cheaper HMO because he said he couldn't afford higher premium. I believe he didn't want to pay the higher premium since there were the cheaper HMOs out there. Over the years since then I have discovered that the health care industry will stop at nothing to make sure that any national health care program will never get to the table unless they are included in it and you know what that means.

As far as the petitions, I sign every one that comes along and have been doing so since Clinton ran for President the first time. Nothing like single payer, which is what we need, is going to happen until we get rid of the insurers first, period. As you can see I have a couple of links on my signature that are all about single payer universal health care. You are preaching to the choir here, but a choir who has been in the battlefield a long time and who knows the enemy very well.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-17-09 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
5. Excellent post and some good news and bad news
Anthem of California (Or Indiana or wherever) has to pay a settlement to Californians that it pushed out of their system The link is from yesterday's news
http://www.sacbee.com/business/story/1618253.html?mi_rss=Business

The Bad news is that the CEo Bruce Bodaken has a built in "in" with The San Francisco Chronicle. So any time that he wants to write 800 words on how executives with health system experience like his are SO VERY needed by Obama to put together the new Health Care Package promised druing the campaign, he gets the OpEd space.

Zabasearch Bruce Bodaken + california and then google map to see his fancy digs that we the insured an uninsured alike are paying for. But please - Do not graffiti his house or inconvenience this god among men in any way!
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-17-09 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
8. Door #1: universal health care in which medicare is an option.
Door #2: the status quo.

Pick only one.

The president has been fairly clear that single payer is not his goal. In fact, he's not a proponent of universal coverage, his plan is that if it becomes cheaper, people will buy it and the uninsured will disappear.

In fairness, his policy would prevent insurers from dropping people due to preexisting conditions, which is good, but it's not universal.

It will require major coordinated effort to simply make the universal public/private coverage a reality. Single-payer is at best an incremental process of medicare taking market share.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-17-09 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. This was John Edward's plan to offer Medicare on the open market to
compete with Aetna, Blue Cross, et al.. People could buy into it and Medicare could offer competitive coverage much cheaper than the for profits. For those who couldn't afford to buy it, the government would provide it or at least do a sliding scale thing on the cost. However, the insurers don't even want that. I believe it was them who outed Edward's so that his plan would die with his political career.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-17-09 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. It was Clinton's plan too. n/t
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-17-09 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. It was Edward's plan first. Clinton copied it. I know, I was following the
health care ideas of all the candidates very closely then.
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-17-09 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Edwards, the arrogant dumbass, outed himself by his stupidity. But that's not saying
the BigHealth guys wouldn't have done it if they could have.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-18-09 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. I think they had a lot to do with it, putting the National Enquirer on Edward's
scent. If it hadn't been a sex scandal, they would have figured out another way to get him. Look what they did to Dennis Kucinich, another advocate of single payer health care. They made sure he had no place at the debates during the primary, essentially cutting off his voice and visibility to the public. I had a DK bumper sticker and people used to ask me who he was. If Hillary had become President, they would have hunted her down somehow too just like they did when Bill Clinton was President and she tried to put forth a health plan back then.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-17-09 11:20 PM
Response to Original message
13. Didn't Hawaii have some sort of great health plan?
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-17-09 11:27 PM
Response to Original message
16. Highly recommend. An exceptionally educational post, McCamy. Thank you.
Bookmarked and going to all my friends and relatives.

My biggest concern with Obama's plan is how to reconcile for-profit care at that level we need to provide to our citizens, with the costs that would be incurred in order to provide the profit margins BigHealth is used to. Seems to me we will be raising the cost of medical care significantly rather than reducing them.

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quidam56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-18-09 02:00 AM
Response to Original message
18. Governor Phil Bredesen need not apply to HHS until he gets his state in order.
In East Tennessee "horrifying" health care = "acceptable" standards of health care. http://www.wisecountyissues.com We need a cure for health care in America where Profit Care comes ahead of Patient Care !
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bigbrother05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-18-09 07:15 AM
Response to Original message
21. Many similarities to the Federal system
Federal employees (and Congress) have a multiple choice system of private insurers. You can opt to take the package that best suits your individual/family needs and the administration costs are monitored. You can also opt out, but most don't unless they are covered by another system. The plans by folks like BC/BS and Aetna are significantly different than those offered to the general public and most doctors are quite happy when patients present their benefits id's showing federal coverage.

There is a very good reason that President Obama always mentioned on the campaign that folks could be rolled into the same system as Congress, it works well with reasonable costs/options.
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Delphinus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-18-09 07:19 AM
Response to Original message
22. A lot to digest
I *DO* care about health care - am for HR 676 - so I need to read this very carefully.

Thank you!
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D-Lee Donating Member (457 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-18-09 07:35 AM
Response to Original message
23. True! remember the multi-state "privatization" of Blue Cross / Blue Shield?
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGLM_enUS309US295&q=%22blue+cross%22+privatization

Take a look at some of the items on the above Google search.

McCamy, you have nailed this subject and I am proud to have given you a heart!
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PA Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-18-09 07:47 AM
Response to Original message
24. Great analysis. Another problem is that the very people who are supposed to protect the consumer
when they feel they have been wronged by an insurance company are often in the bag for the insurance industry.

If an insurance company denies a claim or terminates your policy unfairly, you have to deal with your state's insurance oversight department. The problem that I have found is that the very people who are in charge of reining in insurance company abuse come from the very industry they are supposed to regulate. Then, there is also the issue that there is no one regulator looking at all cases of abuse by a certain company on a national basis.

Case in point. I had a problem with a particular insurance company which FRAUDULENTLY denied a claim. It took months of effort on my part and the the threat of a lawsuit to force them to pay my claim. In the process of fighting this denial, I learned that the company in question, Assurant Health has a LONG and pervasive history of manufacturing reasons for denial of claims, most often claiming that the person's condition was "preexisting".

The company had hundreds of complaints filed against them for this practice, had been successfully sued for doing this and even had a whistle blower come forward to reveal that bonuses were paid by claims processors for the highest rates of denial.

This has been going on for years, and yet this company has never suffered any negative ramifications except for one successful lawsuit and a slap on the wrist. And so the abuse and fraud continues because it is profitable for the company.

Connecticut's Attorney General was made aware of the problems with this company and has vowed to take action against it, since the state's insurance commissioner seems to have a nice cozy incestuous relationship with the insurance industry. But in the meantime, it is business as usual and I am sure these cheats are continuing to deny people coverage to which they are entitled.




http://www.ct.gov/ag/cwp/view.asp?A=2341&Q=333840
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-18-09 08:42 AM
Response to Original message
25. Preaching to the choir in my case, but
thanks.

:kick:
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
28. About the glorious Netherlands program that was put in place in 2006.
Apparently, the insurance is PPO, not real choice of Physicians like you have with Medicare in this country. Also, apparently, they studied our system, borrowed our idea of competition, and rejected much of the rest of the laissez-faire-yland that our market driven health care systems survives in. They let the competition be among insurance companies, not health care providers like our Medicare does. So the Dutch system is an idea concocted by Libertarians not Democrats. Read this:

http://www.pnhp.org/blog/2008/12/01/alain-enthoven-responds-on-reform-of-the-dutch-system/
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clear eye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
29. Wow. Thank you for taking the time to educate us.
Edited on Thu Feb-19-09 07:17 PM by clear eye
And the post was just long enough, and beautifully clear.

Edited for typo.
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