Note to Self: Anyone who calls a human being an "illegal" is an asshole

[alcibiades_mystery]

Just another little snippet to add to my internal book of judgment. "Illegal" is an adjective.

[McCamy Taylor]

1. Can I call W. an "illegal president" since he was selected not elected?

[L. Coyote]

104. NO! That's "Illegal Resident" of the People's House. But, close enough, I guess, so okay!

:rofl: But, next time, try to get it right. :rofl:

[dkf]

2. What do you call people who are not in this country legally?

Are you saying we should call people "illegal aliens" instead?

[RB TexLa]

4. undocumented

[hughee99]

9. So someone who immigrates to somewhere

in a manner that does not conform with the existing laws is an "undocumented" immigrant. Is someone with fake paperwork a "documented" or "undocumented" immigrant? They have documents, they just are not lawful documents nor were they obtained legally.

[customerserviceguy]

12. For the fake paperwork

I'd use the term "identity thief". That's what I'd get charged with if I used someone's ID other than my own.

[backscatter712]

146. You understand that people are pretty much forced to commit that crime.

Since we in America have found it in our infinite wisdom to make it completely illegal for unauthorized immigrants (OK, there is no PC term) to even get a job, but haven't thought about the problems such a law would cause in that they're still here, and have to make a living somehow, guess what - they steal identities.

I'm not saying that identity theft is right, but it's not like they have a choice.

[Lost in CT]

211. No they are not forced to commit that crime.

They could work on improving their own country.

Or they could emigrate legally to a country that is willing to take them.

[superduperfarleft]

218. The Privileged White Liberal (PWL) strikes again.

Do you know how much it costs to emigrate legally?

[Lost in CT]

222. Do you know how much a Porche Boxster costs?

I guess I should be allowed to steal one since they are so dear...

Pretty thin logic you have there.

[superduperfarleft]

230. Again, clueless.

You don't even consider the poverty that many of these people are escaping, poverty that is severe enough for them to risk their lives to come here and work for next to nothing. People don't come here illegally for the same reasons some balding, middle-aged man wants a Porsche.

If your family was starving, would you steal a loaf of bread?

[Lost in CT]

236. So being poor gives them the right to break American laws????

Not to mention drive down American wages????

You post is the reason we need better i9immigration control.

I want universal health care. I want a strong safety net for the poor and seniors.

You can't have that if you have unlimited illegal immigration

[superduperfarleft]

238. Desperate people do desperate things, including break the law.

That's just reality. You can deport every one of them and they will still flood across the border the minute they get home. That's the problem with your approach, the authoritarian approach. It doesn't address the roots of the "problem."

Our immigration process is expensive, long, and incredibly complex. The fact that you think it needs to be even more complex illustrates how little you understand about it. Nevermind the fact that very few visas are issued to people from Central America compared with visas from Europe or Canada.

But this is completely off-topic from the OP's point. You can believe whatever you want, just don't expect to not be called an asshole when throw out what is clearly an epithet towards Hispanic people.

[Deja Q]

131. Are you suggesting there are more countries in this world than America?

I wonder how they operate when somebody tries to move there ille... unlawfu... whatever. Until there's a one world government, I'll obey the laws of the US and the laws of any country I ever perchance to visit.

[customerserviceguy]

10. Drug dealer = unlicensed pharmacist

works for me. So does illegal alien.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

14. So you're saying illegal aliens are drug dealers?

Or somehow comparable to drug dealers?

OK, thanks for letting us know.

[hughee99]

20. Self Delete

Sorry, just too snarky after a reread. Sorry.

[customerserviceguy]

96. Sorry

meant "undocumented pharmacist". Make more sense now?

[mmonk]

235. No.

What is an "illegal" person or alien? Someone who is here without documentation is certainly here illegally, however I agree with the OP that calling someone an "illegal" is to define their personage in a narrow disparaging term (but not that anyone who says it is necessarily an asshole). For instance, if they failed to get a new VISA in time but don't break the laws of our land as a matter of practice I believe such a person is deserving of a different moniker than an "illegal". Being a person or human being is not "illegal". They are a legal resident of some country on earth.

[dkf]

22. Undocumented is also an adjective which seems to be the no-no

this OP was against.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

105. Are the undocumented here legally?

[joeunderdog]

160. Bank robbers are Unwithdrawaled. Keep it pc, ok? nt

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

170. No it's an unsecured loan.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

180. That's a deliberate obfuscation, I think.

The issue is not people who are in a country without documents, but people who are in a country in defiance of the law.

[Freddie Stubbs]

220. If I were to steal your car, would simply be an "undocumented owner?"

:shrug:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

5. What do you call people who forget their driver's license at home?

"Undocumented" works fine with me.

[Deja Q]

135. Horny

Oh, okay, "desperate" it is.

:hide:

[alcibiades_mystery]

25. Illegal alien is a thousand times better than "illegal" used as a noun

That's just asshole territory.

"There were three illegals in the car..." That's when I stop listening. Asshole.

[dkf]

33. So "there were three undocumenteds in the car" won't fly either.

Gotcha.

[alcibiades_mystery]

41. From a grammatical point of view, it is equally dumb

The semantics of "illegal" make it worse.

[dkf]

45. I think its just a lazy shortcut which says

more about the person saying it than the person they are referring to in my book.

[alcibiades_mystery]

51. Well, my post said they were assholes

:shrug:

[dkf]

66. Yeah but being verbally lazy doesn't necessarily mean asshole.

I say "K-Highway" instead of Kalanianaole Highway myself. Some people here get mad when you say Kam Highway because you should be saying Kamehameha Highway to honor King Kamehameha.

[alcibiades_mystery]

67. Verbal laziness plus disregard for decency = asshole

:shrug:

We're not going to solve this thing, me and you.

[dkf]

79. I'd just peg it as disregard for decency.

Works for me.

[alcibiades_mystery]

88. The OP was strictly a statement of personal code

So cheers to you, baby doll.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

52. Would you prefer...

"There were three hispanic-looking people in the car, and I assumed they were illegal immigrants even though I have no authority or means to determine their legal status because I'm a dumb bigot?"

[dkf]

75. That is funny because my scenario where I pictured those

words being used was a cop pulling over people and verifying they were here illegally.

Too much TV I guess, and not much attention to the whole snap judgment on immigrant status here in Hawaii since every other person is a tourist anyway.

[lumberjack_jeff]

119. There were three conservatives in the car?

God forbid we use adjectives as nouns.

[yodoobo]

36. criminal immigrants nt

[roody]

57. Call them people.

[EFerrari]

3. It's right up there with the n word and with "b!tch" as a class marker

for the speaker. :thumbsup:

[zane25]

7. Would invader work better for you?

[EFerrari]

8. Yes. Because in general, if I'm talking to a StormFront poster, I want to know.

[zane25]

13. What do you call someone,

who crosses an international border without reason or legal recourse. A tourist?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

16. Well, unless you're Native American...

I'd call them your great great granmama.

[EFerrari]

18. lol

[zane25]

23. Nice

right to the insults. Classy.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

24. Don't like a taste of your own medicine, eh?

[zane25]

26. What medicine would that be?

Tell me exactly who I have harmed and what I have done. You on the other hand seem intent on attacking instead of discussing.

[duhneece]

190. Not an insult

I saw it as a recognition that we are all ancestors of 'strangers' (a Biblical term, but one that fits, I think.)

[LanternWaste]

206. Ka-Pow!!!

Touche...

[EFerrari]

17. Wouldn't that depend on why they crossed the border?

What do you call the US Army in Iraq? They crossed into Iraq both without reason or legal justification. Are they tourists?

[noamnety]

55. If it was without reason, I'd call them lost or senile.

I tend to assume though that if they left their country on purpose and didn't return, they had a darn good reason.

[alarimer]

102. You really think it's without reason?

Oh wait, you must think they are coming to take "Murican" jobs. No, they are here because we have effectively destroyed their countries with our "free trade".

Fuck this shit.

[lumberjack_jeff]

117. Of course they have a reason. They want something to which they are not legally entitled.

Main problem is that once they get here their interests are closely aligned with those who dislike paying living wages.

[treestar]

126. They are "closely aligned" with those who are exploiting them?

They've done a divide and conquer and you've completely fallen for it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

130. Fine. Step up immigration enforcement to protect them from exploitative gringos.

"We're sending you home for your own good."

Aforementioned gringos will then have to pay minimum wage to tree-planters.

[treestar]

188. Can they afford to stay in business?

Of course, those American jobs can disappear, that's OK. So long as no Mexican furriner benefits, it doesn't matter if Americans can't work. It's more important to have no Mexicans here than it is for marginally successful Americans to have a way to make a living.

[lumberjack_jeff]

189. Trees need planting. Roofs need roofing.

The jobs will still get done, but the people doing it will get a living wage, the benefits of which will circulate through the US economy.

[treestar]

127. They are "closely aligned" with those who are exploiting them?

They've done a divide and conquer and you've completely fallen for it.

[mitchum]

219. An interloper

[leftstreet]

11. Space Invader? It's on!

[marksmithfield]

91. Agreed

And its going to get worse real soon.
then we can call them invaders for real.

[alcibiades_mystery]

92. terrifying

:eyes:

[a la izquierda]

158. Uh, you can't be serious.

Please don't veil your threats so thinly. Please. Your scaring us. :eyes: :scared:

[formercia]

6. Perfectly legitimate term in the spy world. n/t

[Odin2005]

15. "illegal" refers to the person's immigration status, it doesn't mean "illegal human".

and "illegals" is faster to say then "illegal immigrant". People defending that BS euphemism "undocumented worker" are annoying, it's a BS euphemism designed to obfuscate the fact that those individuals ARE NOT HERE LEGALLY.

[EFerrari]

21. I hope you don't fall into that crock of RW baloney. And while we're at it

I want to see your papers.

[zane25]

28. Here we go again

No ideas just attacks, that sounds more republican than those you attack.

[EFerrari]

31. You sure do like labels, don't you? What's the matter?

Is it a slow day at Freakerville?

[zane25]

35. So, don't agree with the resident apologist

and now I have to be a freeper. No, im just someone who wishes we could have a sane immigration policy instead of the lousy on we have now.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

37. "Resident apologist."

What exactly is there to apologize for?

[EFerrari]

46. I think he was calling me a wetback.

lol

[zane25]

71. You really are scraping the bottom of the barrel, sad.

[EFerrari]

73. Not at all. I'm an excellent decoder of bigotry.

And I never have to talk to Minute Men wannabees like you ever again in life.

:woohoo:

[zane25]

81. And what bigotry are you talking about.

I can see a bias, but it seems to be coming from you. You have no argument other than accusations and attacks.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

85. Calling them "invaders."

Sounds like classic textbook bigotry to me.

Real Nazi Germany stuff. Talking about Jewish menace "invading" their Aryan purity and what not.

The only thing I take issue with is the idea that it needs to be "decoded."

It's blatantly obvious.

[zane25]

53. So people come here illegally enmasse

are it's ok because they are seeking a better life. Ok, I can get that. But where do you draw the line? Before or after the system is overwhelmed?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

61. Well, if it was good enough for your great great granmama...

It's good enough for them.

Or are you just an apologist for your great great granmama?

"Ok, I can get that. But where do you draw the line? Before or after the system is overwhelmed?"

How about they can come in. You and yours can leave.

Net plus for the country.

[zane25]

93. My family came here legally

How about yours, my grandfather was a pilot in the RAF and married and american nurse in WWII. I think I will stay whether you like it or not.

[alcibiades_mystery]

100. And my Irish grandfather lived in Brooklyn since the Ice Age

:rofl:

[MajorChode]

176. Here's the problem I have with that attitude

You assume that everyone is responsible for actions that happened decades (if not centuries) before they were born. Personally I feel no such responsibility because I live in the here and now. If you want to live in the past, go right ahead, just don't get upset when someone calls bullshit on such ridiculous notions.

The next problem I have with people who seem to think it's OK to open the flood gates to anyone who wants to come to this country, is many of them seem to live a considerable distance away from the problem. Come live next to the southern border for a few years and watch your taxes continue to go up while basic services rapidly deteriorate as your state goes broke and see if your attitude remains the same. If it does, then I would have a bit more respect for it.

Whether they realize it or not, those people who are all for illegal immigration are actually on the side of people who greatly profit from exploiting those who come here illegally.

[Raineyb]

210. I wouldn't say responsible but they damn sure ought to think about

the advantages they have because the benefited from the fuckery perpetrated on others and stop pretending that everything they got including their citizenship was granted upon them because they're so bloody good.

As to the undocumented immigrants of which you speak, you're right about them being exploited but the fault lies with the employers who exploit them not workers who are being exploited. Our government only cracks down on the people being exploited which is exactly backwards.

BTW, referring to people as illegals dehumanizes them and is an asshole thing to do. The OP is absolutely correct on that.

Regards

[MajorChode]

223. I wouldn't say that Americans have inherited everything

Our society was built by people who set a firm foundation and it's maintained by constant vigilance and work.

Mexico and many other South American countries were built on corruption from day one. Mexico is a country of haves and have nots. It's the perfect Laissez-faire system (if there is such a thing) and exactly the "utopia" that Republicans seek for the US. They exploit their own people even more readily than the US does and it's fully supported by their government which is almost always in on the action. I don't feel any particular personal guilt for that situation. YMMV.

I agree the fault lies completely with those who exploit and I have never believed the problem can be solved by trying to deport all the illegal aliens or stop them at the border. The crackdown needs to occur with those who give them jobs. Dry up the jobs and they will stop coming and many will self deport. Fix the problem with the illegal aliens and we could allow a much larger number of aliens to legally immigrate. Furthermore I don't blame most of them for coming as generally they and their families are doing very poorly where they were.

As far as the term "illegal alien" goes, it's been around for about 200 years now. It doesn't dehumanize anyone anymore than calling any other group of lawbreakers lawbreakers. A person who steals food because they are hungry is still a thief. Their condition may mitigate or even eliminate whatever punishment they would normally deserve, but it doesn't change the fact that they knowingly broke the law. Again, changing the name in some attempt at being PC does not change the condition. The term has been widely accepted and is both grammatically and legally correct. Inventing new terms with the exact same meaning every few years to temporarily dodge alleged pejorative connotations just to make people feel better about themselves never really did anything for me. I'd rather call people out for using perfectly legitimate terms in the pejorative in the first place. It just makes more sense to me to address the problem rather than the symptom. YMMV.

[Raineyb]

227. I did not use the phrase "illegal alien" I said the use of the term "illegals" denoted

an attitude of dehumanization that denoted asshole status. Nothing you said changes that, calling it PC bullshit is just RW talking point that they use when others dare say that they should not dehumanize people and treat them with a modicum of respect. That doesn't really change when someone claiming to be on the left side of the aisle makes the same claim.

That being said I would argue with your assertion that this society was built by people who set a firm foundation that was maintained with hard work and vigilance.

This society was built on the backs of unpaid labor and an apartheid system that we've made noises about correcting without actually delving deeply into the problems said system has caused. In addition, we've replaced that system of enslavement with incarceration and exploitation with prisoners and illegal aliens being used as the cheap labor. It is no accident that the government doesn't want to do anything to ameliorate either problem as it benefits the monied classes. That notwithstanding, I would suggest you look in our backyard before turning your nose up at the governments of other countries and blaming them for our illegal alien problem as you see it. Our government has a nasty habit of undermining governments in this hemisphere (and other strategic areas like the Middle East) that would actually benefit the citizens of the countries rather than our multi-national corporations. Then when the governments we favor impoverish the country and people start coming here trying to make a better life for themselves we hear people hear start crying about "illegals" (which is still an asshole-like way to refer to someone) I mean, really, you don't think it was an accident that there was funny business with the last election in Mexico do you?

The problem with people entering this country illegally lies at the feet of the illegal employers who hire people who don't have documentation knowing that these people are easily exploited and with our government who undermine populist governments abroad (when said government would probably cut down on the number of people leaving for the US in the first place) and deliberately turn a blind eye to the blatant hiring of people who are not supposed to be able to work here in the first place.

In addition, it is more than a little offensive to assume that all illegal aliens come from Mexico. There are plenty of Europeans who overstay visas but when the discussion of illegal aliens comes up these people are never brought up. Why exactly do you think that is?

Regards

[MajorChode]

239. "illegals" is simply an informal shortening of "illegal alien"

I choose not to use it simply because it's misleading and grammatically incorrect and I'm sure as hell not going to argue one way or another as far as whether it's appropriate to use or not. Many people in this thread are also rejecting the term "illegal alien" which I take exception. Calling that a "RW talking point" is at first not even close to being accurate, and even if it were it would still be nothing more than ad hominem bullshit.

Practically every society on earth "was built on the backs of unpaid labor and an apartheid system." Europe, the middle and far east, Africa, America centuries before Europeans ever arrived, and in fact I can't think of a single major society that wasn't going all the way back to the dawn of civilization. Furthermore as far as the exploitation of cheap labor goes, that happens all over the world today also including every single one of the places I mentioned. So if you want to judge the people of centuries ago using today's standards and carry that yoke around all the time, be my guest. Personally I don't feel the need to go looking for something to feel guilty about. Call me crazy. As I said, I live in the here and now and I'll worry about things in which I actually have a chance of doing something about. You choose to judge the US against some ideological standard that has never existed anywhere. I choose to judge the US against other countries and I believe the US comes out pretty high although certainly not on top in that regard and there's always room for improvement.

As far as "funny business" with a Mexican election, who would ever have thunk that, eh? Trying to allege the US had a part to play in that game is a bit too far into tin-foil hat territory than I'm willing to go. YMMV.

Who is assuming that "all illegal aliens come from Mexico"? I sure as hell didn't make that claim. So I reject your false offense outright. Illegal aliens from Mexico do account for well over half of the total population. Considering a bigger subset, illegal aliens from south of the US border account for about 80-85% of the total population. The "plenty of Europeans" you mentioned amount to about 1-2% of all illegal aliens and I really haven't personally observed too many of them being exploited, but that's just me. If you want to claim they are as significantly exploited and worthy of equal time discussing, be my guest. I choose to live in the world most call reality.

[Raineyb]

241. And you know the demographics of illegal aliens how? Did you take a census?

I didn't think so. You make your demographic assumptions based on numbers you pulled out of your ass. You can't know in any demographic whether or not that person is here legally but you think most of them are from south of the border. And you take offense at my assertion that the discussion seems to point towards one country in particular? You are the one who mentioned Mexico in the first place. Spare me your indignation.

As to how I judge the US I judge this country by how it behaves versus what it claim to stand for and it's far from congruous. Our CIA undermines democracies all the time. I'm not saying that they had anything to do with the latest Mexican election but considering the history of this country it is well within the realm of reality your use of the dismissive phrase "tin foil" notwithstanding.

You cannot tout the theory of American exceptionalism then get annoyed when someone points out that America has not lived up to its tenets then say well all the other countries did the same. Actually, that's not true, you can do so but you don't make any sense when you make the argument.

I believe that the OP had as a personal statement declared that using the word "illegals" when discussing illegal aliens. I am well aware that the use of the term "illegals" is a shortening of the term "illegal alien." I'm merely stating that it's dehumanizing and that the OP's attitude about the use of the term is correct.

Regards

On edit: Damn that "k"

[MajorChode]

242. Do you have anything more than false accusations and false outrage?

I didn't think so.

Mentioning "Mexico" in a discussion about illegal aliens does not equal "all illegal aliens come from Mexico". I guess this is just too much of an abstract concept for you to grasp even after it has been carefully explained. But do keep harping on that one if you think repeating the same nonsense gives it any more validity as I find that at least mildly entertaining.

Apparently it's far too advanced for you to understand, but believe it or not there are people who do try to figure out where illegal aliens are coming from using widely accepted and reasonably accurate methods.

You cannot tout the theory of American exceptionalism then get annoyed when someone points out that America has not lived up to its tenets then say well all the other countries did the same. Actually, that's not true, you can do so but you don't make any sense when you make the argument.

I'm not annoyed at all. In fact, I find your obfuscation quite entertaining at times.

[Raineyb]

244. I do not like to get involved in a battle of wits with an unarmed person

and as you've got nothing there's really no point in wasting my time with you. Clearly you are incapable of dealing with an argument without name calling.

Regards

[MajorChode]

245. I never called you any names

You might want to try judging yourself by your own trite clichés sometime.

Just a thought.

Have a nice day.

[EFerrari]

42. Hermanito, I'd never expect you to agree with me.

If you did, I've have to go back and figure out where I f3cked up.

[zane25]

65. Im thinking it was from the start

[EFerrari]

68. You have to watch people like me every minute. We're sneaky!

[Bluebear]

134. So do you.

[bertman]

64. Thank you, Odin2005. I agree totally. The Political Correctness Police are out in force.

[EFerrari]

69. So, should we bring back the n word and "bitch"?

Really?

[Odin2005]

98. Fallacious argument.

"Illegal immigrant" isn't an epithet.

[MajorChode]

247. There you go trying to interject logic and reason into the argument

Shame on you.

[emilyg]

112. Thanks for making sense.

[Deja Q]

133. Logical and accepted.

[backscatter712]

205. Guess what. They get treated like illegal humans.

Of course, it doesn't occur to all the racist fucks in this country and here on DU that it's the law itself that is fucked up.

[Double T]

19. We need to complete the border fence to keep the illegal alien slave wage workers.........

out of our country. I like all humans; I loath self righteous assholes too!

[DS1]

27. "undocumented" is PC bullshit

If people are here working without Visas or Green Cards they're here illegally.


Bitch about getting the law changed instead, but until that happens they are illegal immigrants.

[alcibiades_mystery]

29. I have no problem with "illegal immigrant"

And never said I did. Try again.

[MadBadger]

30. Well, your OP sure makes it seem that way.

If you dont have a problem with illegal immigrant, what are you talking about?

[alcibiades_mystery]

38. My OP is very clear: I don't like the term "illegal" used as a noun

It is a stupid fucking asshole way to talk about humans, and people who use it are stupid fucking assholes.

[yodoobo]

34. You never heard of an "undocumented withdrawer" ?

They used to call them bank robbers.

[dkf]

43. haha. That is funny!

I'll have to remember that.

[EFerrari]

39. Unless you're of the turn of mind that thinks basic human dignity is PC bullshit

which you may be, being here without docs is not a criminal issue, it's an administrative one.

So to reduce people as the bigots do to "illegals" is like calling people "illegal" because they got a speeding ticket or turned their state taxes in late.

But, thanks for standing up for all the tumescent freepers who love this sh!t. You done good!

[DS1]

48. Oh nice try, I'm a bigot now?

You already lost and I'm done with you and your incorrect, desperate, and holier-than-thou horseshit.

[EFerrari]

56. You say "holier than thou", I say "basic human dignity".

[Romulox]

193. Either you agree with her 100%, or you're a bigot. Those are the only choices

when speaking with an ideologue.

[tammywammy]

87. Agreed. n/t

[Dukkha]

124. I don't know how these frail thin-skinned people cope with life

getting so bruised all the time over words. oh the humanity! just utterly pathetic.

[marksmithfield]

179. No no no

They are called migrants now, to further blur the distinction. We all need more migrants don't we? And calling people Nazis ( as another poster did) for wanting to try and keep what little we have left of an economy by stopping ILLEGAL immigration is preposterous. We have a serious problem right now and every ILLEGAL ALIEN working in this country is part of it. And I am sure some well meaning type will reply with the old line "but no Americans will work for those wages", well a lot of people right now would be happy to work at all. I live in the southwest, and am quite aware of the poverty of Mexico. But it appears the time has come to worry about our problems first. If we as a nation don't come to terms with this INVASION we are screwn...

[duhneece]

194. I see it differently

You say "...We have a serious problem right now and every ILLEGAL ALIEN working in this country is part of it..." I don't see them as being part of the problem (conservative policies, illegal wars, corruption) but they may be part of the solution.
I, too, live in the Southwest, 100 miles north of El Paso, and fear my racist neighbors more than I do someone who came here hoping for a better life.

[yodoobo]

32. criminal is the more appropriate term

I agree no human is illegal.

However those that trespass and then steal the identities of innocent people for years on end are criminals.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

40. Ah, but undocumented workers are neither trespassing nor stealing.

It's a matter of civil law, not criminal law.

[yodoobo]

49. Virtually all participate in identity theft

Virtually all "undocumented workers" are actually documented. They are just using the documents and identity of someone else.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

63. Virtually all complainers about illegal immigrants are meth addicts.

And the actual responsible party for identity theft.

:shrug:

[EFerrari]

44. Being undocumented it not a criminal offense, Lou. n/t

[yodoobo]

54. identity theft certainly is

and virtually all criminal immigrants are identity thieves.

The only ones that are not identity thieves are the ones working for an employer who ignores the law to check citizenship, or who simply steal their way into the country and then not pursue work.

[EFerrari]

59. That's very interesting. Let's see some documentation.

And, btw, these "identity thieves" mostly use the social security numbers of deceased people so they can have the great privilege of paying into an SS account and never seeing a penny back.

But, ooooooooooooooo

[yodoobo]

72. So stealing from the dead makes it ok?

I'm really shocked that I see that being passed off as justification.

Am I to believe that illegals perform research in a language unknown to them to insure that they are only using the identity of someone who has died?

I've had my identity stolen and I'm not dead yet. I suppose someone forgot to tell that criminal to hire a research firm before stealing.

Btw, I don't understand why you ask for documentation, then admit it to be true in your own post. Which is it? False or simply ok because MOSTLY the victim is dead?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

74. So you're in favor of amnesty then.

Because then the identity theft problem would be solved overnight.

At least if you're right about illegal immigrants doing it.

[yodoobo]

78. In principle I don't have a problem with amnesty

If done fairly and in a way that does not encourage more of what we are trying to solve.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

83. I thought you were trying to solve identity theft?

Or even illegal immigration.

"If done fairly and in a way that does not encourage more of what we are trying to solve."

So what your trying to solve is legal immigration? Or is it just hispanic immigration?

So what you're basically saying is... this whole "identity theft" business is a canard. A red-herring. You're scapegoating people. Why? Because they're moving here.

[yodoobo]

94. We face more than one problem as a nation.

And we're just talking. I wish I were in a position to be able to solve these problems. If had the power, I would be doing it rather than chatting here.

Identity theft is a real problem. Unfettered illegal immigration is another real problem. And yes, there is a relationship.

I don't have a problem with clearing the table and granting citizenship to those who have been here for awhile. Clear the table and move on with fixing this country.

However, we don't have the job capacity now to employ our own citizens today. With illegals flooding in daily, our ability to employ our own citizens becomes more and more impossible.

I just talked about two problems that are different but related. Matrix that in with another 10,000 problems and thats the state we are in.

[EFerrari]

76. Let's see the stats on what you're calling "identity theft". Provide a source.

And, btw, you can't steal from the dead by contributing to their SS acount that no one will ever collect on.

[yodoobo]

80. Provide a source that the victims are mostly dead

We seem to be agreeing. We just disagree on who the victim is.

I can provide one example of a non-dead victim. Me.

[Cerridwen]

103. Your numbers don't match the statistics.

"Ten million illegal immigrants live in the US, according to estimates by academic and government agencies, although Bear-Stearns investment firm analysts claim that the US illegal immigrant population 'may be as high as 20 million people.'" at this link. Please feel free to find more.

The numbers of identity theft found at this link. Please feel free to find more.

"As many as 10 million Americans a year are victims of identity theft. In 2003 and 2004, the Identity Theft Resource Center surveyed victims of identity theft and reported the findings in a paper called The Aftermath Study."

That would be a 1 to 1 relationship.

Of those 10 million:

"- 43% of victims believe they know the person who stole their identity
- 14-25% of victims believe the imposter is someone who is in a business that holds their personally identifying information
- The most common reported perpetrator in cases where a child's identity is stolen is the child's parent
- 16% of identity theft victims are also victims of domestic harassment/abuse by the same perpetrator. These victims believe that the identity theft is used as another way for the abuser to continue and demonstrate his harassment and control."

So unless you're asserting that the numbers reported above left out the rather telling detail of identity victims not reporting that the person they know, the person at the business, the child's parents, and/or the abuser, is in this country without legal documentation, I think you might wish to re-examine (or hell, examine) your prejudices.

In short, your argument is bullshit.

edit for typo.

[yodoobo]

138. Those are your numbers and your statistics

Nice strawman, why did you knock him down?

[Cerridwen]

151. Well, I sure as hell can't argue with "logic" like that.

If stupid hurt, you'd be writhing on the floor in pain.

Have a very wonderful evening in your willful ignorance.

[yodoobo]

167. Please don't be so rude.

If you don't want to converse then please don't.

But if you do wish to argue with your own data, be my guest.

[Odin2005]

101. Trying to immigrate to this country illegally is a criminal offense.

[marksmithfield]

216. Got that right!

Shame others don't realize it.

[Lasher]

229. "Illegal presence" is a is not a violation of the U.S. criminal code.

It is, however, a violation of civil immigration laws, for which the federal government can impose civil penalties, namely deportation.

"Improper entry by an alien" is a violation of Title 8 of the U.S. criminal code punishable by a fine of between $50 and $250 and/or a maximum of six months in jail.

http://www.alipac.us/ftopict-113610.html

[noamnety]

47. kick, strongly recommend, fully agree.

I don't think the folks who use that term to label people realize the labels the others in turn mentally give them.

[demosincebirth]

50. Or "Alien."

[RedstDem]

58. C'mon that's just silly

Illegal's sounds better than alien's...just sayin.

[alcibiades_mystery]

60. Big fan of the apostrophe "s" to form a plural?

Excellent.

:thumbsup:

[EFerrari]

62. Whatever happened to "spiks" or "wetbacks"?

Darn, it's so hard to keep current.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

70. It's a way of dehumanizing poor people and dealing with them mercilessly.

Not to mention blaming them for problems we created.

[duhneece]

195. That's how I see it, too

Words to make 'them' our enemy, so that we don't need to show compassion or kindness. I think it can come close to hate-talk.

[bbinacan]

77. I guess I'm an asshole.

And you're too judgmental. Relax.

[alcibiades_mystery]

89. 1 out of 2 ain't bad.

[bbinacan]

139. I'm 2 for 2. n/t

[alcibiades_mystery]

148. Eesh...

You need more "clever."

:eyes:

[BlooInBloo]

82. I tend to agree. "Illegal aliens" *can* be used as an epithet...

But "illegals" pretty much *always* is.

[lumberjack_jeff]

84. I can live with that.

Fair's fair, I guess, because I feel the same way about those who think that illegal workers have a human right to my job.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

86. Hmm.

How long you been in the migrant worker business?

[lumberjack_jeff]

115. The problem with zippy one-liners...

... is that some people are left with no damn idea what you're talking about. If the phenomenon is chronic, it's reasonable to surmise that the poster doesn't either.

[Ghost in the Machine]

123. What, exactly, is the "migrant worker business"?

Explain please?


Thanks,

Ghost

[alcibiades_mystery]

90. Who said that? Not me.

:shrug:

In fact, I don't know anybody who says that.

[lumberjack_jeff]

110. People here have absolutely argued for illegal immigration because open borders are a human right.nt

[alcibiades_mystery]

113. If you say so...

:shrug:

[Mike 03]

95. You are one of the most thoughtful, compassionate and kind people here at DU.

This is yet another great post, to which I have nothing to add other than admiration and praise.

[alcibiades_mystery]

97. Now I know you're putting me on

:rofl:

On the plus side, when I determine that somebody is an asshole, you can take it fairly definitively, relying on the "takes one to know one" rule. ;-)

[Mike 03]

99. I was being honest. To prove it, I'm giving you my last heart.

I was saving it for someone else, but I'm giving it to you.

Thank you for being here. You always tell it like it is.

Best.

You are a good Du'er, to say the least.

[Fountain79]

106. Then call me an asshole....

It's a term to describe an illegal alien. Not offensive...just a description...

[alcibiades_mystery]

107. It's an asshole term

If you use it, then you're an asshole. Their status may be illegal, but they are not themselves illegal as a substantive. If you use it as a noun to denote people, you're an asshole.

[Fountain79]

109. They are.....

illegal aliens.......Calling them illegal is merely a shortened nickname for what they are...people who are in a country illegal and who happen to be aliens...

[alcibiades_mystery]

111. It's shorthand used by assholes

It's dehumanizing. I don't like it, and I don't like the assholes who use it. That's all I'm saying.

[Fountain79]

122. Ok.....so you don't like the term....

I will however...continue to use it.

[alcibiades_mystery]

147. That's nice for you

I'll continue to consider anyone who uses it an asshole.

It's not that I "don't like the term." It's that the term is only used by people who are despicable haters or ignorant fuckwads, because the word turns human beings into a violation of the law in their very being, their existence. It is sickening, and denotes an utter lack of ethics by the assholes who use it. I'm sorry to hear that you're proud to be in that disgusting category.

[Fountain79]

149. Now see...you are defining my very eistence...

by the use of that word....

It's obvious that you let words bother you too much.

[alcibiades_mystery]

150. The what now?

[Fountain79]

152. By the mere use of the word....

you are defining me on the same level as others without any knowledge of my feeling towards illegals......

[alcibiades_mystery]

156. Your feelings are immaterial

You are perpetuating a disgusting practice that has real effects on people's lives. That's all I need to know to make this judgment. At the end of the day, I don't give a flying fuck about the feelings or intentions of the people who use the word. I care about the effects they are producing in people's lives.

[Fountain79]

159. I just said illegal right now....

Somewhere someone's life is affected...

[backscatter712]

141. Okay, asshole. n/t

[yewberry]

108. Holy cow. I agree with you.

Don't start on the Red Sox, though...

Seriously, though, I don't listen once someone has used the term "illegal" to refer to a person. It's very telling.

[alcibiades_mystery]

114. Apparently, it's just "shorthand"

Like when I call the douchebags who use it "douche" rather than douchebag.

[dustbunnie]

118. Those words have different meanings.

Wish I did not know this :D but douchebag refers to someone who actively behaves like an a**hole, whereas douche is used to describe a useless person.

[yewberry]

120. I'm stunned that there are so many people defending the term.

Are we going to start seeing arguments in favor of calling people "the blacks" and "the homos?"

No such as an illegal person. No way.

[Fountain79]

121. There's a problem with using the term...

"blacks"?

[yewberry]

128. You actually refer to people as "blacks?"

"Whites?" "Gays?"

Uh, yes, there's a problem with that. Those are adjectives. Using them as nouns creates a dynamic in which individuals are defined by race or sexuality. If people want to define themselves that way, they are free to do so; if others use those terms, they are falling into a pattern which strips the people in question of their humanity.

[Fountain79]

132. Well...when the people are black.....

Wouldn't make much sense if it was a group of "whites".

[yewberry]

137. Nice.

If using dehumanizing language is fine with you, that's your lookout. But please don't pretend that you're doing otherwise or act like it's cute.

It's not.

[Fountain79]

154. Who defines it as dehumanizing???

I don't...I see the person, I know their situation, I have family from Mexico, I know what it is like there. However....that doesn't change the fact that they are in this country illegally and they are an alien. They are illegal aliens or illegals...for short. Just like I am an citizen of the United States of America or an American for short...oh shit....people who use the term American are going to be called "assholes" next aren't they?

[yewberry]

171. Everyone.

When you define a person based upon their relationship in opposition to the powerful "norm," that is dehumanizing.

A person is not a person: they are a black, a gay, an illegal. No individual exists within that definition.

[Lost in CT]

221. What is wrong with Black white or gay? When did this happen?

Crap did I take a longer nap than I thought?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

182. In the UK, "blacks" and "whites" are fairly standard usage.

and most people would be amazed if you took offense at them. If anything, you'd be more likely to raise eyebrows if you talked about "black people" and "white people", I suspect.


I suspect that the same is actually true in most of the US, but I don't have the ability to check that.

[cobalt1999]

116. Bullshit. I was an illegal once.

Stayed well past my VISA in New Zealand. They had to throw me out. I was an illegal and I knew it.

[suninvited]

125. calling them "aliens" isn't much better.

undocumented is one thing, but illegal is quite another.

I am singing your song, buddy.

[Bluebear]

129. +1

[AzDar]

136. Calling people "asshole" ain't real nice, either.

Put that in your internal book and judge it.

[alcibiades_mystery]

153. The problem with "illegals" is not that it's "mean," or "not nice"

The problem is that it is dehumanizing. Calling somebody an asshole isn't dehumanizing. It just means that the asshole is not a good person. Drunk teenagers don't go driving at night trying to find generalized "assholes" to kick the shit out of. But they do go driving around at night looking for some of those "illegals," and you damn well know it. And yes, I'm one of those pollyannas who believes - crazy, I know, as we all write on this here message board - that language has consequences, that words actually produce behavior and affect lives. Wow. Silly me.

[Fountain79]

155. Yep...silly you...

Glad you came to that realization..

[backscatter712]

140. Gotta love a system which creates an entire undercaste of illegal people.

All the shitheads here who posted "B-b-b-but they broke the law!!!111" should read this.

In this country, if you commit a misdemeanor (and face it, illegal entry into the U.S. isn't a crime worthy of more than a low-grade misdemeanor conviction,) you get arrested, you go to trial, you get convicted, and you get a sentence that typically involves things like fines, probation, or jail time.

Once you serve your sentence, assuming you keep your nose clean, you can get rid of the stigma of being a criminal - you paid for your crime, took your licks, you're forgiven, and you're back to being a member of the community in good standing.

That's not so with illegal immigration. You can't atone for the crime of illegal entry into the U.S. by serving jail time, going on probation or paying a fine. The only legal remedy in law is deportation. It doesn't matter if you have family members, such as a baby born on U.S. soil, that are citizens. ICE will break up your family, abandon your baby, just so they can imprison you for months before they toss you out. If you were a child brought illegally across the border when you were two years old, and you grew up in the U.S. and don't even speak Spanish, the law makes no distinction - they'll throw you back into Mexico even though you have no memory of the place and don't speak the language. You're an "illegal." You are an illegal person. You get sharply reduced job opportunities, you get businesses who hire you with a wink to ICE, who get to abuse you with lower wages, lower benefits, all enforced with threats from your boss of being turned into ICE for deportation. You're pretty much forced to break the law in order to work at all - don't think that unauthorized migrant workers are going "BWAHAHAHA!" because they used a forged social security card to get their jobs - they're just doing what they have to in order to get a job. I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying they're forced to do it.

If you're an "illegal," you have no rights. If you're just a kid, you're an illegal, and you can be deported. If you're a little old lady who's been in the U.S. for thirty years and never committed a crime other than crossing the border and using a forged social security card to find work, rough men with guns can kick down your doors and toss you out of the country.

And thus, an entire new underclass is created in the United States. An undercaste that effectively has no rights, and has no way to achieve those rights. Welcome to the new American Apartheid.

So, for those of you posting here who think American Apartheid is groovy, you're either an idiot or an asshole. Either you're an idiot because you've failed to understand the human consequences of our grossly unfair immigration laws, or you're an asshole, because you do understand those consequences, and approve of breaking up families, throwing out children who've grown up here, and denying an entire group of people basic civil rights.

You're either an idiot or an asshole. Pick one. You can't be neither, though you can be both.

[Vattel]

142. Amazing that some don't even know that the term is offensive.

But it's not as offensive as thinking that somehow we citizens have a moral right to be here and they don't.

[backscatter712]

143. What's really ironic...

Many of the "illegals" are actually people of Native American descent who's ancestors were hunting and gathering on the exact same land they're not legally allowed to stand on today.

[Fountain79]

144. Well....

my ancestors were hunting and gathering in Germany at one point...does that give me a moral right to work in Germany?

[backscatter712]

145. Let's just say it would be nice if there was a way to resolve that illegal crossing crime...

in ways OTHER than instant, permanent deportation, especially if we're talking about situations that could break up families.

I'm all for enforcing border crossing laws with fines and jail time and such, and giving "illegals" a way to become legal by paying a fine for their crime, keeping their noses clean and getting a green card, with citizenship an option if they want to earn it.

As it stands, unlike other crimes for which you atone by paying fines, and going to jail, you cannot atone for being an illegal immigrant. You become an "illegal person", forced into a black market of illegal labor that keeps you repressed and forces "legal" workers into a race to the bottom, and there is no way out. The only remedy in law is deportation, which might be okay for some people, but other have families which would be broken up, or are children who didn't even choose to break the law or understand why they're an illegal person.

Because let's face it. I've met and worked with and talked with quite a few of these "illegal people", know that they're actually decent, hard-working folks just trying to provide for their families, and I can no longer endorse a system that works this way to create a form of apartheid. Did they commit crimes? Yes. Do they deserve to spend years of their lives being mistreated as consequences for that single crime? No.

[Fountain79]

157. Permanent deportation???

Seriously????? Cause I know quite a few illegals that have been deported and came right back here.

As far as families being broken up...If I rob a store then yeah..I might break up my family if they send me to jail.

[backscatter712]

161. Again, we have this false equivalence.

Let me get this straight. You consider the crime of crossing a fence, the moral equivalent of trespassing, to be equivalent to armed robbery?

[Fountain79]

162. Moral equivalent???

This is a legal issue not a moral one. Now the two being equivalent well...that depends on a lot of legal factors doesn't it? The fact remains however...that with each crime comes the appropriate punishment.

[backscatter712]

166. Fair enough.

So what's the problem with allowing immigrants who illegally entered the U.S. to stay, assuming they pay a fine of say a few hundred dollars for the crime of illegally crossing the U.S. border?

Keeps the rule of law, without doing things like tearing families apart. And helps to create a situation where they don't have to practice identity theft just to get a job.

[Fountain79]

168. The point is that they broke the law...

the came into the country...got married...had kids all while fully understanding that they broke the law and the consequences behind them. They assumed the risk...surely they can assume the consequences as well.

[backscatter712]

172. And do the consequences have to be deportation?

I keep saying, as did Obama a few times, that it's perfectly fair to have them pay a fine, maybe spend a few days in jail, instead of being deported - they're paying a penalty for their crimes.

What concerns me is that since deportation is currently the only remedy in law for illegal immigration, and that it's such a draconian and destructive remedy that breaks up families and destroys lives, it needs to be replaced with something else. Something that would preferably give a path to citizenship for those who choose to earn it.

[Fountain79]

187. If the only consequence for illegal immigration...

is paying a fine and spending a few days in jail, then we will see a huge jump in illegal immigration.

[backscatter712]

196. Perhaps you should be asking yourself why...

Why would thousands, no, millions of relatively decent people do this? They work for a living, and the ones I've talked to are very nice, ordinary folks. The vast majority of them aren't psychopaths or people who would ordinarily be the criminal type. Yet they knowingly risk jail, fines, and deportation. They risk death going through the desert and do these things.

Why would they do that?

Could it have something to do with their home countries being places of such extreme poverty that they feel they have no other choice?

Could it be that they're immigrants seeking the same thing many of our ancestors sought when they came to America? Some opportunity? A fair shake at life?

Decades ago, we welcomed immigrants into our country with open arms - they had no passports, no visas, no nothing - they just got on a boat and came, they filled out a form at Ellis Island, welcome to America. I'm proud to say that some of those immigrants are my ancestors.

Now we treat them like animals. We turn them into illegal people. Am I the only one who finds this situation completely fucked up?

You know what? I'd rather have a flood of immigration than this current system of apartheid.

[a la izquierda]

163. I HATE this subject.

I wish there was a way I could completely ignore all topics on Mexicans who cross the border.
I live in Mexico part time, as some of you might now. It is one of the only subjects where I will simply shut down discussion if participants don't have a clue what they're talking about (i.e. haven't seen Mexico outside of some touristy resort). Just today I watched a protest of mostly elderly folks (protesting land/wage issues I think)...these people suffer too, and I guess I just assume people on DU are liberals and have an iota of compassion. I forget that a lot aren't and don't.

God, why do I read this garbage?

Edit: To be a little bit more polite...but not much.

[Fountain79]

169. So by living in Mexico you have become enlightened in some way

that others here can't possibly understand? I've lived in Mexico too. I've seen what conditions are like...I understand why a person would come here illegally. Still....these illegal aliens...or illegals(ilegales) are still violating immigration laws. All countries have the right to regulate how people enter their respective countries.

[a la izquierda]

203. Yeah, I have.

I'm not necessarily saying that others can't possibly understand it, because anyone who's lived in poverty stricken parts of the US or other parts of the world surely know what I'm talking about. It's certainly not just Mexico; and this is not just a US problem.

I'm talking about a little bit of frickin' humanity, for cripes' sake. And that's the point I won't argue. I also won't argue the fact that the workers who come here get the pointy end of the stick, when the corporations are the problem--they don't get punished nearly as frequently and it's not their families being broken up at nearly the same rate.

Rethink the laws. Have a little compassion (I'm not talking to you, specifically, on that point).

[backscatter712]

197. I saw a little taste of it myself.

I went on vacation in Cancun, but did take a side-trip to Chichen Itza (the Mayan city and pyramid) and we got bussed through some of the non-touristy parts of Mexico.

It was just a few glimpses, and signs here and there. You'd probably tell me that I didn't see enough, and you'd be right. I saw lots of kids trying to sell trinkets at Chitzen Itza, I saw some shanties. It was fairly soon after a hurricane, so I saw a lot of hurricane damaged buildings that were just abandoned - a lot of people didn't have the means to rebuild. There is a tremendous amount of poverty in Mexico, and most of the rest of the world.

Oh, I should probably mention. Lots of people here make the assumption that all the "illegals" here in the U.S. are Mexican. Certainly, a lot of them are, but far from all of them - illegal immigrants come from all over the world.

[a la izquierda]

201. When you the kids selling stuff...

you can get a sense of how angry I feel on a daily basis...you've seen more than most people. You actually left a resort. I ran into a few tourists today while I was sitting in the plaza and we chatted for a minute: "Can you believe the poverty?" "Yeah, I can...I've also lived in big cities in the US. It sucks there too."

And right at this minute, I'm looking out a window at two old men, begging for change. Everyone ignores them. I've spent about $10 on them this week so far. It makes me ill. It makes me sick that the government of Mexico doesn't do anything for its poor and the US doesn't do much for our own poor either. The fact of the matter is until the US government is willing to go after corporations who willingly hire undocumented workers, people will leave Latin America, SE Asia and elsewhere to find a better life. That is a fact. And when they get here, they marry and have kids- a very good friend of mine is case in point- and her parents were deported with an American baby in tow. What the hell were they supposed to do, leave an infant behind? No! They left. And came back, her mom is now a citizen and her dad a permanent resident. Our policies wreck the economies of both our own country and countries the world over.

What pisses me off most about the "illegal immigrant" debate is the lack of humanity. Now, not everyone displays such a disrespect for the basic dignity that humans deserve; there are millions who do.

But I've read things on DU such as "screw the illegals" and "fuck 'em". WTF is that? On DU? I won't fight with people who degrade other human beings like that. They're simply not worth my time. Yes, "illegal immigrants" broke a law. It's a law that most certainly needs to be changed.

You should read this book, it's called "Devil's Highway", by Urrea. It will give you a bizarre perspective. It's very chilling and very good.

[backscatter712]

204. Spot on. Welcome to the new Apartheid.

It's the same trick they did in South Africa - they stripped black people of their citizenship, created these "homelands" for them that were nominally independent nations, but were actually ghettos (kind of like Gaza), and "deported" blacks to their "home countries".

What's happening here in the U.S. is not especially different - create a class of illegal people and use the law as an excuse to treat them like animals.

[Mr. Hyde]

164. The Mexicans were here first. This is their country more than ours. We're the illegals, not them.

[MellowDem]

185. Wrong.

Native Americans were here before Mexicans. Actually, the Spanish were there before the Mexicans, and Mexico only ever owned that land because of Spanish conquest and imperialism of native groups. But you're missing the point. Saying land belongs to whoever got their first is the most idiotic logic I ever see excercised on this board.

[backscatter712]

199. Who do you think are the Mexicans?

Oh, yeah, many of them are people with mixed Spanish and Native American heritage. The ancestors of many of these "illegals" hunted and gathered on the exact same land that they're not allowed to be on today.

[MellowDem]

209. Who do you think are the Americans?

Lots of Americans have ancestors that owned land in present day Mexico. I guess they better cede over the territory! But seriously, the land ceded to the US after the war had a very small population of "Mexicans", most of the population was indigenous. Remember, Mexico hadn't been around too long at this time, and few of the inhabitants left the area (the few that there were) after the cessation. They were not tied to Mexico in any real meaningful way. So really, the original Mexican inhabitants stayed where they were living and are probably so American now that you would have no idea who the "real" owners of the land were.

It's complete and utter bullshit to claim that the ancestors of these "illegals" used to hunt and gather in some territory and therefore it should be theres. If that's the case, the US has claim to the whole world, as there are many Americans with ancestors who used to do something or other in some corner of the world.

Mexico is just the same as the US. It was a colony of mixed races that broke away from its imperialist mother country. I don't know how the Mexican state is viewed as any more indigenous or honorable with a right to the land than the US. After all, the whole Mexican territory only exists because of the Spanish.

In the end, in history might makes right. It's not the case today necessarily, but it was back then. You might as well lament about all wars of conquest that ever happened and try to make them right today. It's impossible for one, and not a matter of right and wrong for another. It's history.

And what about all those indigenous peoples living in the "Mexican" territory at the time? By your logic, weren't the few Mexicans who were living there encroaching on their land? Wasn't that land really owned by the Indians, not the Mexicans? As you can see, your argument makes no sense.

[Romulox]

192. Please purchase and read a history book. Thanks. nt

[southern_dem]

165. Agreed

The biggest problem is not with the undocumented immigrants, it's with the fat-cat businesses that hire them at slave wages. It's time to bring them out of the shadows. I believe if a business can prove that no American is willing to fill the job, then they can hire an immigrant. However, with the economy in the shape it is in, a job is a job and we need to look out for our own citizens first.

[U4ikLefty]

174. You'd better watch it...you're gonna be called a bigot.

They'll talk about your great-great grandma.

[backscatter712]

200. Part of the problem is the distinction between "illegal" and "legal".

It's the oldest class-warfare trick in the book - siphon off a portion of the population, declare them to be "illegal", then rile up the "legal" part of the population about how the "illegals" are stealing their jobs, and drive the old wedge between them.

The best part is that you get businesses who hire the "illegals" with a wink and a nod to the corrupt .gov, that forces the "illegals" into jobs with lower wages and no benefits that the "legals" would not tolerate. That puts the "legals" and the "illegals" in a state of competition (which helps with the divide-and-conquer wedge-issue strategy,) and the "legals" wages, benefits and working conditions are driven down. In that way, both the "legals" and "illegals" are screwed, and the predator capitalists get all the money.

You want my opinion? The problem is that we have "free trade" - anarchic trade of goods and materials with no tariffs, no financial incentives to discourage bad behavior, which undercuts American businesses and workers, and at the same time, we have very strict controls on the movement of people in and out of this country.

Our border and trade policies are completely bass-ackwards.

We should be allowing people to move freely in and out of this country, and have tariffs and controls on imports and exports of goods and materials. That way, we don't have a de-facto system of apartheid in this country, and we help keep workers here from getting shafted.

[Common Sense Party]

173. Does that include the illegal immigrants who call each other "illegals"?

Some of them do, actually. Many illegal workers with whom I have spoken have used the term "ilegales" to describe themselves.

They sure don't use the perm "trabajador sin documentos."

More often they tell me they don't have a "número bueno," that is, they don't have a valid Social Security number.

[EFerrari]

177. Indocumentado is the word you want. n/t

[ContinentalOp]

175. Everyone seems to be missing your point. I'm surprised your statement is controversial at all.

To me it's the same thing as calling someone "a black" or "a gay." :shrug:

[silverojo]

178. Do you call soda pop "soda"?

If so, you're using an adjective for a noun, too.

In other words...

Sometimes this happens in our language.

Someone who isn't here legally is an "illegal alien" (that's the LEGAL TERM), and it's often shortened to "illegal".

There is, of course, a simple solution to this.

If they'd come here legally, we could call them "American".

[Donald Ian Rankin]

181. Illegal immigrants. "Undocumented" and "Alien" are both prejudicial (in opposite directions).

"Illegal" as a shorthand for "illegal immigrants" doesn't bother me personally much, but since it seems to bother a lot of people it's worth adding a noun - causing grautitous offence is seldom worth it.

Referring to illegal immigrants as "undocumented" rather than "illegal" is a deliberate attempt to obfuscate the fact that they are in the country in question not merely without documents, but in defiance of the law, and should be avoided.

Referring to "aliens" rather than "immigrants" sets my teeth on edge, because of the connotations of "another species from another planet" rather than "people from another country".

"Illegal immigrants" is accurate, unbiased, and - while it will undoubtedly upset some people who want to obscure the illegality of illegal immigration - won't cause *gratuitous* offence.

[MajorChode]

226. A basic literacy lesson is in order

Alien simply means a foreigner. If alien to you means "a person from another planet" then you might want to pick up a dictionary because that definition is always several notches down from the one I just provided. Perhaps you've just watched a few too many Star Trek reruns. The word "alien" as it relates to foreigners has been in use as a legal term for well over 200 years.

Immigrant means someone who migrates to another country with the intent of establishing residence. Therefore, by definition "immigrant" is a subset of "alien".

Many illegal aliens have no intention of establishing residence and as such the term "illegal immigrant" does not fit their situation. The term "illegal alien" is all inclusive of people who are in this country illegally.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

232. Yes, it is. Go look up the word "connotations".

Don't try to teach your Grandmother to suck eggs :-p

[MajorChode]

234. Yes what is? You suck eggs?

You might want to be more specific if you want anyone to know just exactly what the fuck you're talking about, but I'm assuming you wish to be perceived as coherent.

I don't need to look up the word "connotations" as I'm at least functionally literate already. YMMV.

[Deep13]

183. Well, people are not illegal...

...but their location can be.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

184. I guess I'm an asshole

[MellowDem]

186. How about "illegal immigrant"?

Illegal is usually just used as short for illegal immigrant/alien. Nothing wrong with that. Of course any words can be used in a hurtful way given the correct context. Same with undocumented or whatever. Your internal book of judgement huh? Sounds like an excuse to be an asshole.

[Romulox]

191. The US Code uses the phrase "illegal alien", so it is the appropriate term. nt

[Control-Z]

198. When the MSM

inundates us with any particular slang, it becomes the accepted norm, and benign to most people. I know I've been guilty of using the word, but it never meant anything to me other than using a word everyone else used. When I was quite young, I remember first hearing the term, and asking what an illegal alien was. It never really came up again until the last few years, and "illegals" just seemed like a short version of the the original term. "Dissing" is an example of a word that made no sense to me but became popular, and accepted. I still hate the word but have used it myself on occasion.

So when self righteous people like you come along and have a little shit fit over a word, it may make us aware of how it might be perceived, but it clearly doesn't prove that any of us have used the word with malice. A lot of words have evolved in my lifetime from acceptable to unacceptable. It's hard to keep up. I sure wish someone would put out a list of approved words and terminology.

[backscatter712]

202. Is there a correct word?

We're on the euphemism treadmill here. Of course, there are the outright pejoratives and slurs, but even terms like "illegal immigrant" or "alien" or "undocumented worker" or "foreigner" or "immigrant" very quickly mutates into a pejorative.

I think that we need to emphasize words like "people" or "human beings". The OP's point is perfectly valid. Our system of immigration creates an underclass of "illegal people" - very dehumanizing.

I'd rather save my dehumanization for Republicans... :evilgrin:

[ItNerd4life]

207. This sounds like Repuglican logic. You a Repuglican?

They are in this country illegally and taking American jobs from Americans.

Is that okay in your book? It is with Repuglicans.

[superduperfarleft]

213. Legal immigrants "take american jobs from americans" too.

So is it all immigrants you have a problem with?

[LanternWaste]

208. I saw three illegals on my way to work this morning....

I saw three illegals on my way to work this morning. Of course, they were all white males wearing suites and driving expensive SUVs, but they were doing at least 85mph in a 65 zone.

If one automatically assumed I was talking about undocumented workers prior to reading the post-qualifier, then I think the term "illegals" is both exceptional and an indication of its pejorative nature.

edit: spelling

[eilen]

212. Were they European, Russian or Canadian? nt

And how could you tell?

[LanternWaste]

215. Probably Russian...

Probably Russian to get somewhere 'cause they were going so fast.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[superduperfarleft]

214. A lot of really obtuse people in this thread.

If I may speak for the OP, he wasn't looking to debate illegal immigration, he was talking about how dehumanizing it is to term a group of people as "illegal," especially in the manner that many people do when it comes to hispanic immigrants, legal or otherwise. You'd have to be living under a rock for the past decade to not be aware that, far too often, "illegal" is used as an epithet by the Brown Menace crowd that refers only to hispanic people, not undocumented immigrants from Canada, Europe, etc.

But if you're comfortable using a term that many people find offensive and is a favorite of the racists over at FAIR, knock yourself out. Just don't get upset when someone calls you an asshole.

[Control-Z]

225. Not everyone who has used the term

is an asshole. The accusation in the OP was unnecessary and meant to inflame.

One would need to know that the word, in itself, was an insult before being considered an asshole. Not everyone has followed the immigration situation closely enough to be aware. A few years ago it was discussed here on DU. I felt badly for having used the term but it wasn't as if I should have known something that I, in fact, could not have known. I haven't used the word since. But until then, I hadn't given it much thought as it hadn't really come up.

I wonder how long it will be before "undocumented" becomes a slur. I just hope I'll be on top of things and know what the new pc terminology is that replaces it.

[superduperfarleft]

231. Can I add to the OP that anyone who whines about something being "PC"

is also an asshole?

PC = rightwing whine for having to act like a decent human being.

[Control-Z]

240. bullshit

but enjoy the self righteousness.

[Maat]

217. In total agreement -

I grew up with friends here in Southern California, and I didn't check their immigration status before we became friends.

[marshall]

224. Illegal is an adjective, and asshole is a part of the body

Two wrongs don't make it right, imo.

[VOX]

228. Agreed. The term "illegal aliens" dehumanizes an entire stratum of our society...

It's a lot easier to castigate, accuse, work to death, scapegoat, ignore, blame, turn away from and forget something "illegal."

This not a case of political correctness, but rather one of incorporating a group into the whole of society.

[pampango]

233. Great point. I wonder how we would react to someone calling African Americans "Three-fifths",

since 3/5's of a human was how they were counted in the constitution originally. While it is true that has changed and is not true today, I doubt that DU'ers (if we had been around before emancipation) would have condoned calling AA's "three-fifths" as a derogatory term, even though it was indeed their correct legal status.

[MajorChode]

250. They weren't even called that at the time

It was a compromise regarding how people would be counted for census purposes and never anything that could possibly be construed as an epitaph, even then.

I'm sure we could dream up a lot of fictionally scenarios and use them as fallacious analogies if we wanted, but I'm not sure what the point would be.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

251. Illegal immigration doesn't merit the scare quotes, I think.

It's illegal, not "illegal".

Pointing out that someone's presence in a country is in violation of the law of that country does not dehumanise them - for one thing, only humans can break laws.

And whether and to what extent illegal immigrants should be incorporated into society is far from an open-and-shut question.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

237. So what is the proper terminology for someone like me?

I entered the U.S. legally in 1987. I am not a U.S. citizen.

I call myself a "legal immigrant" and I also refer to myself as an "alien." Am I using the wrong terminology? After all, in my profession (which incidentally happens to be U.S. immigration law), I use those terms all the time and they are mentioned in various parts of U.S. laws and regulations.

If one follows the law, the action undertaken is 'legal' (as per the law). If one does not follow the law, the action undertaken is 'illegal.' Immigrant is one who wishes to move from Country A to Country B. If one immigrates legally, one is a legal immigrant (in that the process to move from Country A to Country B was undertaken as per the applicable laws of Country B). If one immigrates illegally, one is an illegal immigrant, because the move was not undertaken pursuant to the applicable laws of Country B.

The terminology makes no assertions as to the quality or humanity of the individual. There is no assertion made as to the character of the person. A legal immigrant can be a serial killer, while an illegal immigrant can be a saint. Used alone, the terms 'legal' and 'illegal' are just shorthand.

U.S. immigration law is highly complex; it is not easy to legally immigrate to the U.S. However, most countries in the world have complex and sometimes harsh immigration laws, some of which are much much harder than the U.S.

If I tried to sneak into Mexico without inspection or a visa, I would be an illegal immigrant. Mexican law does not treat illegal immigrants kindly.

[MajorChode]

248. I suppose if you subscribe to the backwards logic of some posters in this thread...

"Asshole" would be the correct answer.

[fascisthunter]

243. good point

[Donald Ian Rankin]

246. Is the objection to the choice of adjective, or to the absence of noun?

Refering to the illegality of illegal immigrants is, I think, perfectly reasonable -if anything, it's people who refer to illegal immigrants as "undocumented" who are trying to obfuscate the issue - the general objection is to people who break the law to enter a country, not just to people who do so without documentation.

Leaving a noun out wouldn't be offensive or stupidly ungrammatical outside of context, but since it's become something of a trademark of the extreme wing of the anti-illegal immigration/anti-immigration movement it does appear now to cause offence ("who, if anyone, does this cause offence to?" is a much more useful question than "is this, viewed objectively, offencive?").

"Illegal immigrants" is the formulation I always use. If it didn't cause offence, I might well use "illegals" as a shorthand, but since it does I don't. I wouldn't generally talk about "undocument migrants" unless I was talking to people who had arrived without documentation but without breaking the law (which I can't imagine happens much).

[MajorChode]

249. Good question

Another good question would be if someone called themself a "legal alien" or a "legal" would he be "dehumanizing" himself by the same logic?

And are the people who are actually in that situation as offended by the term as those who pretend to be offended on their behalf? My guess is they are more offended by their condition and could really give a shit about the subtle distinction between "undocumented" and "illegal". Since the condition hasn't changed what has anyone accomplished by inventing new terms other than making themselves feel better?